CEO Perspective: Balancing Results & People

Your Work Friends Podcast: CEO POV - Balancing Results & People with Alan Whitman

What does it take to drive results without driving people into the ground? Former CEO Alan Whitman joins us to share how he led with empathy, built trust across the org, and still delivered big. Alan's known for being a progressive leader. But what we we're interested in is how he was able to balance business results (he 3X'd the firm during his tenure) with the people stuff (he was voted #1 Advisory CEO on Glassdoor). 

We cover the big stuff:  WTH do CEOs actually do? How DID he balance results and people? What's critical for CEOs to nail? This conversation is a rare look inside the mind of a people-first exec who believes that culture and performance aren’t in conflict—they’re connected.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:02

When I was early on in public accounting, you always knew the people that were going to be successful because they were pukers.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Huh what.

Speaker 1: 0:12

Like grow up in a trash can before. No, what's a puker? A puker is somebody that feels like they're going to puke when something goes wrong. They care.

Speaker 4: 0:36

Well, guys, welcome to your Work Friends. We're your two HR friends, I'm Francesca and I'm Mel, and we have no filter, but we're getting you through all this work shit. And today, mel, what are we talking about?

Speaker 3: 0:48

We are kicking off a brand new series called Visionary Executives. There are a lot of cool leaders out there that are doing really interesting work and bringing people in business together in a way that everyone wins, and we wanted to start a series that started to highlight those folks and talk about the things they're doing and what you can take away from that, either as an employee or as an executive yourself.

Speaker 4: 1:16

Yeah, there's nothing like talking to people that are at the tippy top of the seats and making these big decisions, so we're excited to kick off this series with Alan Whitman.

Speaker 4: 1:25

Alan Whitman was a chairman and chief executive officer at Baker Telly US, which is a top 10 CPA firm, and the reason why Alan's a really interesting person to talk to is threefold. One Alan was the CEO of a top 10 accounting firm and if anybody is familiar with accounting, you know how volatile that industry is, not only from a business side, but also from a people side. People just really don't want to go into accounting as much as they used to, so it's a sticky situation. The other thing is during his tenure, he 3x to the business, which is huge, and at the same time, was able to have a number one employee satisfaction and CEO approval rating from Glassdoor of the top 20 advisory firms. So here's a guy that is in a volatile industry, 3x his business and also had the people saying we love this guy. So we wanted to talk about how the hell did he do that? How the heck did he balance people and results, and he did it in a pretty interesting way.

Speaker 3: 2:22

Absolutely, and you don't want to miss this episode. So here's Alan Whitman.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Hey Alan, how are you today?

Speaker 1: 2:43

I am fantastic, great to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Where are we finding you Today?

Speaker 1: 2:48

I'm in Atlanta and it's a sunny, warm day in Atlanta. A little cool in the mornings but nice and warm in the afternoons.

Speaker 2: 2:55

So I'm not anywhere where it's snowing, which is great, kim my wife says that it's snowing back in Michigan, so I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I heard a friend was up in Ann Arbor at University of Michigan, so I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I just I heard a friend was up in Ann Arbor at University of Michigan and said it was snowing. So I'm like, yeah, that doesn't sound fun. So it sounds like you're well located.

Speaker 1: 3:10

I am, and I'm going to Florida tomorrow night.

Speaker 2: 3:12

Yeah, but you're a native of Michigan, right Since 1996.

Speaker 1: 3:16

Yeah, I grew up in New York and Cincinnati. I lived in Detroit as an adult but since 96, I met my wife there and my kids are from there, so I'm from there.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Yeah, you are. You are a Michigan.

Speaker 1: 3:26

I'm not a U of M fan unless I'm with my wife or my mother-in-law. I'm still a Cincinnati Reds fan and Indiana Hoosier fan, although the Lions were a lot of fun to watch this year.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Oh my gosh, I loved how Eminem totally got behind it. A big fan I am. I lived quite a long time in Columbus, ohio, which is home of the Ohio State University.

Speaker 2: 3:48

Understand the not liking the blue. I went to liberal arts college, so I don't have any skin in this game Anywho. Anywho, alan, we're here today. I'm excited to talk with you. I want to talk about the role of a CEO. It's not very common for us to be able to talk to leaders that have led global billion-dollar organizations and we want to know all about it and what it's like. What does it feel like? What do you do? What does your dailiness look like? Are you the type that gets up at 4 am on the Peloton? That's the vision everybody has, right. So that's what we want to uncover with you today is what is the world of the CEO? And, probably more importantly, is what do you think the world of the CEO? And, probably more importantly, is what do you think the world of the CEO should look like as we're going into the future? So we have a few questions we want to go through with you today. How does that sound?

Speaker 1: 4:30

All right, let's roll, I'm ready.

Speaker 3: 4:32

We'd love to hear more about your journey to CEO. How did that happen? Tell us about it.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Yeah, as both of you know, I'm a public accounting brat. I grew up in the big eight, 6, 5, 4. Went to a few smaller firms Tax guy by background and really never had the plan. I never had the professional life plan. I just always trusted that things would work out. And when I joined Virchow Kraus which is the firm that became Baker Tilly just by a names change, I had a great opportunity to lead this thing called International services and I had no idea what it was about, really had no idea what it was about, and my predecessor had no idea. His idea was it's yours if you want it. I said what is it? He goes I don't know, you'll figure it out.

Speaker 3: 5:17

And.

Speaker 1: 5:18

I did. We figured it out Before that I had just. I had great mentors, and so I wouldn't be where I am or wouldn't have had the opportunities without great people looking after me and helping me. And look again, it was. There was no plan to be the CEO of Baker Tilly. The plan was to do great work, build great relationships, build trust with the people I work with and have a lot of fun doing it.

Speaker 1: 5:40

I'm not a guy that's built on a lot of structure. I'm not a rules-based guy. I'm more of a principles-based guy and I do like to wing it and I have trust that it's going to work out. It's not that I have so much trust in my abilities that I'm going to just crush everything. I just have trust in the system that if I do the right things, everything will work out. Some would say that I'm oblivious to the outside world. I don't know, but that's how I was.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And I remember I was in a bus heading to a partner retreat and we knew we were going through a succession plan process and a former partner of mine leaned over and said, hey, you should put your name in to be the next CEO. And I laughed. I'm from a small practice, I'm new to the firm. And she said listen, everybody trusts you. You're not here to build your own practice. You were here to help everybody, including her me, as she said. And I think you'd be a viable candidate because the partners trust you, that you're here for them and for us in total, rather than trying to pad your own performance or your own book of business, et cetera. And so I said all right, I'll put my name in that.

Speaker 1: 6:46

And one thing led to another a lot of testing, a lot of interviews, et cetera. And I still remember the day I walked out of the last interview. I remember that day. And then I remember the next day when I got the call and I found myself as the next CEO of Baker Tilly and it was like wait, what just happened? And then I could talk to you about the journey as the CEO. I think the ability to visualize the future of what would we build the organization to. I'm not so sure I knew how to do it yet, but I certainly knew what I wanted to build and what the foundational principles of my candidacy. And they took a chance and I think it paid off. We did remarkable things. We everybody did remarkable things in that eight-year run.

Speaker 3: 7:36

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like there's definitely that light bulb moment. It wasn't about you establishing a practice. It was about switching what your role is completely. What exactly is the role of a CEO?

Speaker 1: 7:48

What's the role of a CEO? I think, above all, the role of a CEO is to enable the team to do more than they think they can do and to do things they're not even aware of doing. So pulling them together for a common cause and achieving twofold, threefold, fivefold, x-fold the amount of outcomes and deliverables and performance and accomplishments compared to what they think is possible. You both know that I don't ask binary questions. Can we do this, can we do that? I ask the question. What will it take? And so it opens the mind to the art of the possible. And so, above all, there's all sorts of different things strategy and acquisitions and communications, client connections, et cetera. Those are the how, the what, in my mind, is innate pulling people together for a common cause, a vision, a mission, and engaging them to believe they can do more than they thought they could. Engaging them to believe they can do more than they thought they could and, in turn, providing that pathway and the ingredients to do just that.

Speaker 3: 8:50

I love that You're bringing that visionary role to folks. You're making them feel like they're a part of something larger and you're also really building up their confidence in a space where they thought they might not be able to do it, which is really exciting.

Speaker 1: 9:03

Confidence in a space where they thought they might not be able to do it, which is really exciting. A successful CEO is somebody that enables people to have a little bit of blind faith. If he or she thinks I can do it, or he or she is totally committed to this, let's go. Let's go on the journey that she or he is describing. In my opinion, the most successful CEOs are the ones that can paint the picture of tomorrow when maybe not everybody understands even what today's all about. They come on that journey with you and they have blind faith that I trust him or her and all right, I'm going to follow, or I'm going to ride shotgun, which is even better, or I'm going to lead, which is even better.

Speaker 2: 9:47

It's interesting. You talk about vision. Marcus Buckingham wrote the One Thing you Need to Know, which is what differentiates good from great leaders, is the ability to paint a vision and get people behind it. So much of that is on trust and the compelling nature of the vision, the doable nature of the vision, where it has a little bit of I don't know if we can do this, but I think we can. You talked about trust. What makes you so good at trust? Like, how do you get people to trust you? How have you gotten people to trust you?

Speaker 1: 10:17

Look part of it is what have you done prior to becoming the CEO or the leader?

Speaker 1: 10:23

Yeah fair done prior to becoming the CEO or the leader? Yeah, fair, do you have credibility? That's the first and the second in many facets, francesca, it's being able to tell a compelling story, to not wither in the face of adversity. And if you have adversity, how do you deal with it? Don't go too high, Don't go too low, don't get too excited, don't get too down. Don't get too excited, don't get too down. Building a compelling narrative. Look, words matter, the story matters, and so having a great right-hand person to help you take your crazy ideas and organize them and build them into a compelling vision that's believable, even if it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 11:13

You separate yourself from reality a little bit and you dream. And so, look, communication is a crucial skill of any senior leader, a CEO being able to communicate. And that's with words, with emotion, with heart, eye to eye, being relatable, not demanding things, but working together on things. And look, I always thought that I was Alan, who happened to be the CEO. That's how I communicated. I'm just Alan. Yes, I'm the CEO. Yes, I probably have more experience than you.

Speaker 1: 11:47

You know, our family's a big fan of the movie Ratatouille. Our kids grew up watching it. It's a great flick about anybody can cook. Guess what? Anybody can be a CEO. Now, there's got to be some things that happen in your career, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, and so I was just Alan. I am Alan and it happens to be the CEO. I was on a personal level with people while at the same time, being their boss, or their boss's boss, or the steward of the organization, and so being willing to be relatable and being a person first. Yeah, you get the job, of course, things you do, but you're still a person.

Speaker 3: 12:24

Yeah, like that the job, of course, things you do, but you're still a person. Yeah, like that approachability piece, vulnerability as a leader. You weren't the Wizard of Oz hiding in your tower and that probably made a huge difference. How do you think the role of a CEO is going to shift in five years, 10 years, with how business is changing? Like what might be different in this role in the future years, 10 years with?

Speaker 1: 12:45

how business is changing, like what might be different in this role in the future. Just think about technology and automation and how much is going to be accomplished artificially. The stakeholder groups have never been as numerous as they are now. There's so much influence on business from the social part of humankind that the stakeholder groups have become numerous and, frankly, as I was the CEO, I was always concerned that there's going to be another stakeholder that came up on Monday or Tuesday, but we had to consider that stakeholder and so, look, business has never been as fast as it is. If Friedman wrote, the world is flat, you can use that title to describe a lot of things in today's day. Right, everything is flat, nothing is compartmentalized, everything is blending and bleeding into the other. So that's a really hard thing. I think CEOs are going to have to continue upping their game in what to communicate, when to communicate and how to communicate.

Speaker 3: 13:47

Do you see organizations moving to being increasingly more transparent? As much as they can be, of course, but do you see a change happening there?

Speaker 1: 13:57

I think there's already been a change Now. I think that, done poorly, it can blow up in your face. Yeah, right, we've seen that recently in some very poor communications about some very sensitive subjects. And, yeah, I do think that people expect more transparency. But it is interesting. Is it transparency or is it inclusion? That's the that's a big question, right? Is it transparency that you got to know everything because you can't know everything, right? Or is it better said inclusion in a lot more of the how the sausage is made or how decisions are made, et cetera? Look, you can't include everybody in decisions. I wrote about a recent post I put up on LinkedIn. You can't. So you've got to find a way to make people feel like they're part of the subject, they're part of the decision making process or the project, so they feel like, as much as they can, they're engaged. I think that is a big expectation of people today.

Speaker 2: 15:04

You talk about the power of communication. I'll tell you look at what's happening. We're still looking for Kate Middleton with the idea, Honestly which, by the way, went down a massive rabbit hole with that. But it really goes to prove that when you have poor communication and or no communication at all from an entity or a leadership position, people will make up their own narratives, and you don't want that as an organization, right? You want them to be clear.

Speaker 1: 15:31

You just wonder. You're like, who in the world is advising them?

Speaker 2: 15:36

A thousand percent.

Speaker 1: 15:38

And you know that they've got advice, whether it's legal advice or Tom's advice or PR advice. But I remember something just happened recently the university presidents when they went before Congress. I remember I was listening to that and I felt so bad for them just because of the situation they were in. That's got nothing to do with what I believe in, so we'll leave that aside. And I remember calling my good friend saying who the heck's advising them? Even I know that whatever they were communicating was done poorly. So you just wonder how are things being missed so wild?

Speaker 2: 16:12

Yeah, joking aside, we're seeing it front and center, which, by the way, will be a Harvard business case tomorrow because it's just awful.

Speaker 2: 16:20

I have a theory that when the queen mum died, the whole place just went downhill. That's just my whole thing. But you see it there. You see it happening in businesses and companies too, right, especially as some of these corporations are moving through things like mass layoffs or less than desirable business results, and some of the tone in which employees are feeling the conversation is changing internally and externally is really nailing communication. Well, and, by the way, we know how to do this. It's always just so fascinating, to your very good point, when you're like who the hell's advising them? Because they're biffing it, and they're biffing it really hard.

Speaker 1: 16:55

I've got a saying listen, you're not going to like this and it's okay not to like it. I give you permission because some of these things that I'm about to tell you I don't like Knowledge butchered in.

Speaker 3: 17:05

I don't like Knowledge is a turd in the room.

Speaker 1: 17:06

I'm asking you, you don't have to like it. I'm asking you to respect it. Yep, and what I find is if you give somebody the permission to not like something, it doesn't make them like it. It just kind of deflates their balloon because the emotion it's like he's not going to fight me, he's not going to argue with me, he's not going to engage in that. No, I'm okay with you not liking it. There's a lot of stuff that people won't like and there's a lot of stuff that I guarantee the CEOs themselves don't like. There were decisions.

Speaker 1: 17:32

I had to make, or I made, or I agreed with or endorsed that I didn't like, no question about it.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And they had to be made and I respected them and I asked the people to respect them. You're framing that as you're not going to like this, but this is where we're going to have to go. Takes it in a direction of what do we do now? Let's get into solution mode, or how do we collectively handle the situation, as opposed to getting into the emotions of it, which can be time consuming, and listen. I think everyone has to go into their hidey hole of emotions and do all that shit, but the reality is we need to move, and that's a nice way to frame it.

Speaker 1: 18:12

The reality is, the decision has to be made because it's not going to go away just because we don't like it. Right, let's get on with it.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Yeah, productive about it yeah. You talked about communication being a really critical piece for a CEO. That, to me, is someone who is really looking out for people and wanting to have a conversation around people. But you're also running a business, and you're running a global, multi-billion dollar business and you need to get business results. How do you, as a CEO, balance the need for wanting to put your people and your business results on an equal playing field? How do you do that?

Speaker 1: 18:50

Yeah, you spend a lot of time thinking about it. You spend a lot of for wanting to put your people and your business results on an equal playing field. How do you do that? Yeah, you spend a lot of time thinking about it. You spend a lot of time debating and designing and redesigning. I had a wonderful professional coach who was a little bit of a therapist. I would say. I don't know if she would want me to say that, but she did act that way because, getting through these conundrums is hard.

Speaker 1: 19:15

You know what it needs to be, you just need to figure out how to get there. Look, I know people didn't like some of the decisions I made and I'm sure some of the people said he's not a people person. Look what he did here in the instant on the micro and I tried to use both and versus but for either or a lot. I can be the people person and I can make those hard decisions and trying to get people that were the but of the hard decisions to realize that it's in the best interest of everybody. Here's an example.

Speaker 1: 19:52

I was reading Reed Hastings' book no Rules Great book.

Speaker 1: 19:57

He reminded me in the book that you need to be transparent and you need to really get to the people and if somebody is not right for the organization, make the decision and move on.

Speaker 1: 20:07

And it reminded me of a decision that I put off for five years and I look back and said, gosh, darn it. I wasted five years of this person's professional life because I was trying to be too nice, I was weighted too much to I need to do what's right by the people when in reality doing what's right for the person was to be honest with the person five years ago, and as much as we think that we're not nice to people when we make hard people decisions, you may actually be being nice, being genuine, helping them out. So it's not a binary you either are or you aren't. There's a middle ground there. So, look, I thought a lot about how to reimagine the organization, knowing that people would have to move out of their current role because the organization had passed them by and we needed to redeploy people. And that is a really hard thing to do, probably one of the hardest things, because there is emotion involved.

Speaker 2: 21:10

Et cetera, relationships, everything, all these people yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:13

And was I good at it? I don't know if I was good at it. I think that the organization's success would probably conclude that, yes, we got it right more than we got it wrong, much more than we got it wrong. But I wouldn't suggest that I captured the flag on that one. It's a constant struggle. You mentioned all hands or the live cast that I love those just adored those. I love the time with everybody because I was just again just let's be myself and that did empower me. Frankly, it did build trust and it was just so much fun that we could just be people and we're all in it together, and titles weren't part of those events there are a lot of organizations that talk about.

Speaker 2: 22:16

They're either people first or they're very people-centric. They're there for their people. You've obviously sat at the well, at the tippy tappy of the table where you're making decisions financial decisions, strategic decisions around investments in people. And I'm curious if we could flip this, because you know what this takes from an insider perspective, working with boards, working with the C-suite running an organization. I'm Jane Doe of ABC Company. How do I know? What are the tells that my company really walks the walk on being people-centric?

Speaker 1: 22:50

Features is not being people-centric, actions is being people-centric. I remember talking about development plans and I came up with the analogy of if you buy an outfit off the rack, okay, but it doesn't fit well, it doesn't hang well, you may have to have it tailored, but if you buy a bespoke or a tailored suit, it feels really good and you're on the top of your game. I was reminded at one point hey, alan, in today's day nobody gets tailored suits anymore, so your analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm like okay, got it, okay, fair. But the point I was trying to make was people-centric organizations have to come to the people rather than say we're going to get pet insurance or we're going to give you the 25 healthcare membership. Those are all features.

Speaker 1: 23:51

What if you put dollars to direct one-on-one development programs, coaches, how are you helping me? Or how are we helping you, francesca, at this company, become a better person and professional? You, it's not going up to a buffet and you get to choose what you pick. No, you're going to pick off the menu and you're going to actually pick the meal you want and it's going to be made to order for you. There's plenty of buffet style development and learning and development platforms, etc. How do we build something that is bespoke, tailored and it's not 100% of it? 80% can be buffet style and the last 20 is really focused on the person. And look, we do that for executive coaches. That's a bespoke program, sure do. Why are we doing it through the organization? If I had a coach when I was a senior, I'd have been a much better professional.

Speaker 2: 24:49

Why don't organizations do that?

Speaker 1: 24:52

Well, I think it's a pretty progressive platform. I think it's a pathway that requires a lot of confidence and trust. It's expensive, it's expensive yeah. And I think that I don't know. I'm going to say this and I'm going to get ridiculed for it. I wonder if people work to the mean Like do you get the?

Speaker 2: 25:13

degrees, Alan. Is that what you're trying to say?

Speaker 1: 25:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, Francesca. It's a great question. I don't know why people would say it's impossible. Why do this? Why not? We can't do it. What would it take to do it? What would it take to put a program like that in place?

Speaker 2: 25:35

It's a doable. I think I agree with everything you're saying. It is a trust, it's a vision, to your very good point A lot of times because people haven't seen it. They're typically a long game. They're not something that you can turn in a quarter and see results a lot of times, but those are the things that are so meaningful.

Speaker 2: 25:52

And this is what I really struggle with is when we're doing these like quarter by quarter, needing to see results, needing to see results, how can people fight for the long tail stuff, the break the mold stuff that really truly changes and shifts industries?

Speaker 1: 26:14

I was just working with my colleague on an article about intentionality and my belief now in coaching or in tailored development programs. We all hear professional athletes have coaches. Yes, and you can see the difference. Because they're higher up on the leaderboard, they win more tournaments, they can shoot a better percentage. Whatever it is On the professional setting, as you said, francesca, it's the long game.

Speaker 1: 26:41

I don't know if you can associate a win or this to the coaching. Maybe you can, but it's less direct, it's less cause and effect. The coach helps the golfer putt better, so on Sundays they make more putts, they win the tournament. Versus building somebody as a professional. I can tell you from experience the people that I've engaged in coaching and I've pushed to coach are much better as people and professionals, much more aware than they would have been or they were prior to. So I think most think that's for the athletes, because there's a grade right, you win, you lose, you move up. I think we can learn a lot from sports or from other professions. And so, look, I think it's massively expensive. But you know what? So are all the campuses up in the Silicon Valley, the open campuses. Those things are massively expensive.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Yeah, real estate's not cheap.

Speaker 1: 27:41

Right, and so is it all making people better professionals or is it allowing them to work in a better environment? Now, some would say working in a better environment will make you more productive. Okay, I'm not going to argue that I don't know the data on that. What if you took all that money and you put it back in developing Mel and Francesca to be better people, more spatially aware?

Speaker 2: 28:06

Less smart ass. There's a lot of benefits here.

Speaker 1: 28:11

I don't like that. I like that part of you, so I would not put that in the program.

Speaker 3: 28:15

That's your sassiness, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 28:18

I couldn't agree with you more, alan I've always believed in coaching and to both of your points that you don't necessarily see ROI in the first quarter, the second quarter, it just becomes part of your organization's culture that everyone gets a performance coach. All the people stuff is where the problems happen at the leadership level, starting at managers and above. So if you're addressing that when someone's first coming out into their career, it's going to get them light years ahead of other people who don't have that. So when they're at a manager level, you're not trying to suddenly jam down their throats milestone programs to make up for all of the care and attention that they haven't yet received.

Speaker 3: 29:00

Beautifully said, we've talked a lot about things that make people feel valued and respected, empowered in the workplace. You talked about inclusive practices, transparency, as much as you can have that, but make it really. It's like acknowledging their emotions, speaking to them human to human level. What are other things that CEOs can do or leaders can do to foster an environment where people really feel valued, respected, like they have belonging and meaningful work?

Speaker 1: 29:33

Certainly accolades and awards and the at a gal, at a boy comments. Yeah, to me the thing that got people really jazzed was the idea that they could connect with the CEO one-on-one, the idea that they knew the CEO was looking out for them and was looking to put them in different places, move them around, cared about their career. They felt part of the ingredients that were going to make the strategy reality. And once you get them bought in, they're bought in. As hard as it is to get them into the, into the room, if you do it right, it's equally as hard to get them out of the room and to have them turn away. Now, if you're a jerk and you're really not trustworthy, of course you can ruin a second, but I I had some colleagues that were just so sold on it because we activated their need for belonging and being part of the solution. I had people coming up to me and it wasn't to brag, it was. They would come up to me and tell me about all this stuff we're doing and how this is working and that is working, et cetera. It had nothing to do with their performance, they just wanted to share it. That's when you know they're in, they're so far. In Fine, you go tell the people about this. This is awesome. I don't need to be the conveyor of the good news.

Speaker 1: 30:50

You mentioned culture, francesca. I'm a big believer that culture should change. It's a living organism. It should not be the same today as it was yesterday. It should continue improving. It can deteriorate, but if you're doing everything right, it will continue to change. You Build new cultures over time. It's just critical for leadership to empower, to push more. Sit beside people and watch them.

Speaker 1: 31:22

I remember when I called a client service partner and I said hey, we want you to come lead this practice, because she was stuck in a practice. She was doing great, she was a partner, she was doing great. But I saw something in her, just like my predecessor saw in me. I called this person, said we want you to lead this and she said you realize I'm an audit partner. I have no idea about that.

Speaker 1: 31:50

I said you don't need to know about the technical aspects. We've got plenty of people that know the technical aspects. I need you to lead it and I have every confidence and will be right there with you to lead it. And she's like, okay, I really don't know what I'm going to do, but okay, and she's crushed it. There's dozens of examples where I would go into the system One because I like to shake it up, I like to get people rustled up to go do other things, but then I brought them out and boom, they became people that they never even thought they'd have the chance to become. It's a big thing of culture, trust, empowerment, and that's where people get really engaged with wow that's really cool.

Speaker 3: 32:37

He is for the people and someone believing in them. A big common red thread throughout all of your stories is not just the trust people have had in you, but your belief in them really empowered them to do it. You're advising and coaching a lot of CEOs now, but if it's a new CEO, they've never done it before. In the position you were in many moons ago, like how am I going to do advising and coaching a lot of CEOs now, but if it's a new CEO, they've never done it before. In the position you were in many moons ago, like how am I going to do this, knowing what you know now? What would you advise them to do right away in this space to establish a?

Speaker 1: 33:02

good culture. Trust your gut as much as numbers don't lie. Numbers aren't the only thing that you should be focusing on. Be willing to take a chance. We know who good people are. We always say that she has the it, and if the square peg doesn't have to fit in the square hole exactly, which is my example a minute ago this may sound a little crass. You can teach technical skills. You really can't teach the it. You can teach technical skills. You really can't teach the it. You can polish the it, you can bring the it out, but you can't really teach it.

Speaker 3: 33:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:39

And when you see somebody that has it, give them a chance.

Speaker 3: 33:43

Yeah, what is it the X?

Speaker 2: 33:44

factor. Is it X factor? Is that what we're talking about?

Speaker 1: 33:46

Yeah, the X factor, yeah yeah, when I was early on in public outing, you always knew the people that were going to be successful because they were pukers.

Speaker 2: 33:57

Huh, what, okay?

Speaker 1: 33:58

Like grow up in a trash can before. No, what's a puker? A puker is somebody that feels like they're going to puke when something goes wrong. Goes wrong, they care and your belly gets all tied up and some people probably do puke. I don't know, but is the person a puker or not? The person that's a puker, I'm going to work with that person because that person cares and gets it Part of the X factor, versus the person that just hey, okay, we'll try again tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 34:27

When you think about the people that have the X factor are the people that care enough to get nervous enough to get anxious. And yet earlier in this conversation we were talking about why don't organizations do this in macro right, in terms of caring about their people? It's because they're going towards the mean. It's because they're operating as in C's get degrees as opposed to getting the pit in their stomach and really caring. It's an interesting hilarity there. The puker story absolutely is staying in. We talked about this earlier. Like speed of business, we're in an election year. Ai, inflation, stagnation, boards, you name it. The amount of stuff and the amount of stakeholders that any CEO in any organization has to deal with is nuts, honestly. It's evolved massively, it's way more than it used to be, and it's only going to get more complex. I am curious about what are the hardest parts of this job. When you think about sitting in that seat, does the puking stay? This is what I'm wondering. Did you ever hurl as a CEO? That's what I really want to know.

Speaker 1: 35:41

Did I ever hurl as a CEO?

Speaker 2: 35:42

No, and I'm not even going to say I curled up in a ball and sucked my thumb. I've done that, maybe not as a CEO. Anyway, I had a ball and sucked my thumb.

Speaker 1: 35:50

I've done that, maybe not as a CEO. I didn't. Anyway, I had a lot of sleepless nights.

Speaker 3: 35:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:54

I had a lot of waking up at 2.30 in the morning with junk driving in my head or I'm not performing, I'm not performing. Look, I talked to my coach about this. I'm a big believer.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Everybody's got imposter syndrome no matter how successful we are, we all have it. I have it sure, okay, I admit it. And so I had a lot of waking up at two o'clock in the morning and never go back to sleep, and that was part of the job, because my head was swirling. I had a lot of puking experiences, not literally, but where I was all balled up in my gut because I had such a dilemma or I had such a challenge. One was when COVID came about right, plenty right. Others were when earnings were not where they needed to be, and what are we going to do with compensation and bonuses for everybody? There's all sorts of making.

Speaker 1: 36:44

One of the biggest moves I had to make, which was a personnel move. It took me four months to figure out how to do it. I remember exactly when I figured it out. I was on a plane from Detroit to Asia. Kim was sleeping next to me in the little pod and it just over Washington, where you live, francesca, and I figured it out, but it took me a long time. So, yeah, I had a lot of knots in my gut over the course of the year. Okay, I have gray hair. You can see I have gray hair.

Speaker 3: 37:07

Now I didn't have gray hair when we met. Think of presidents.

Speaker 1: 37:12

To your question, francesca people and the relationships that ensue, that will never go away. That's really hard Because, at the end of the day, no matter what business you're in, there are people in the business. It's a huge part of every ceo's routine anticipating what's next, not missing something. He always fretted that I was going to see a headline on the front page of whatever or an email, that something happened and I totally blew it. I just wasn't paying attention.

Speaker 1: 37:46

I wasn't worried about delivering good service because we had great people at the organization. I wasn't worried about delivering good service because we had great people at the organization. I wasn't worried about executing the strategy of the firm. Once we got everybody to a place where they believed in the strategy, which took about two years, once everybody was on the train, I didn't worry about that. I knew people, knew how to run the business and knew how to do what we needed to do. It's everything else. It's the ability for me to keep elevating my game in the firm's game. It was not missing something. It's not seeing around a corner and the people aspect of things, because every decision affects people, no matter what it is. It affects people, yeah, and so that was a huge part of it.

Speaker 2: 38:34

It's interesting to hear you talk about that, because we talk to employees leaders all week, every week Mel and I do and it's very similar to what we hear from them around their own craft, their own work. I was thinking when you get to a C-level, there's one of two things that happen. If it's me, I'm probably just puking my guts, which is totally fine. I love the fact that you still hold that level of care and that level of curiosity. There's this other, where there's this perception, too, that some CEOs are like have you heard this? That a lot of them are like pathological. Have you heard this? That a lot of them are like pathological.

Speaker 2: 39:10

Have you heard this? Yeah, yeah, you roll in these circles. Do you find that more people are pathological or they're more in the care? What's the split? Are we talking like 20, 80? What's going on here?

Speaker 1: 39:20

Oh, I think there are a lot of CEOs that are misjudged.

Speaker 2: 39:25

Oh interesting, Tell me more.

Speaker 1: 39:27

And look, I'm misjudged too. I've got a hard outer shell, no question about it. And if you don't know me, a lot of people think I'm a jerk. When you get to know me, you realize I'm really not a jerk, yeah, and I'm going to get things done. Look, you've got to be pretty confident, even if you have imposter syndrome. You've got to be pretty confident, pretty bold, to lead an organization and lead a journey. You got to be pretty bold and you got to be pretty tough. Now I do know there's plenty of people that are crazy.

Speaker 2: 39:58

Yeah, at all levels in the organization.

Speaker 1: 40:00

To be fair, believe me, I've met some of them, so it's yeah, but I think there are more that are caring than people give credit to.

Speaker 2: 40:08

I like that, I like it?

Speaker 1: 40:10

I really do. There's a CEO in the CPA profession there's a couple of them One that's got a bad rap and personal friends with him, and he's the nicest guy in the world and he gets a bad rap. And I can see why, because it was out of shell, but he's as caring as they come. And so the old adage okay, does the media do that to you, or is it real? I don't want to throw the media under the bus. People come up with their own stories.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Yeah, people come up with their own narratives. It does go back to. One of the keys here is to be a great communicator. Fair enough, and not that you need to be like happy joy all the time, but communication. This is one of the reasons.

Speaker 3: 40:49

You're in such a unique position too, I think, as a CEO, because every day you're in a position where you have to prove yourself to so many different people, day in, day out, over and over and not that others don't need to do that in their positions and I do think that there is a little bit of a uniqueness in that role where it's like the pressure of that has to be intense yeah, look more than anything.

Speaker 1: 41:15

All the eyes are on you right.

Speaker 1: 41:17

I remember when I became a partner I was told look, every, all the eyes are on you as a partner. Yeah, but it's not 6,000 person organization but in a hundred person team or whatever. I'll give you a story. I remember I was late to a meeting. I ran in and my coach was there. She was observing a lot of meetings for team effectiveness. I wanted her there to help me with the team effectiveness of the senior leaders of the organization Very helpful.

Speaker 1: 41:47

And so I run in and I want to get the meeting started. And so I go get a plate, want to get the meeting started. And so I go get a plate to lunch and I'm standing up eating and she's watching me and she pulled me aside before and she says what are you doing? I'm like what do you mean? I'm eating. She goes think about what you look like. They're all looking at you and even if they're not there, they're seeing you way out of control. And so again, in that little instant, you realize, holy moly, I might have gone backwards a little bit. And to your point, yeah, you are being looked at and even if you're not being looked at, you should not act like an idiot. And at that point, I was acting like a knucklehead. Slow down, sit down, eat. One, two more minutes isn't going to kill us. It was a good lesson.

Speaker 2: 42:31

There's this concept of shadow of a leader, and when you're at the top, all of your shadow casts over here, and even if it does something as simple as eating in front of people and giving the perception of we're not even going to spend time to sit down and eat, that's all stuff you have to consider and it's all part of the gig, right, and I don't know if people get that. Oh yeah, you've got a persona. I have no question about it. Mel and I were talking about this on the pod the other day. There is no one on the face of this planet that has led through what we're about to go through no one. And there's no playbook. I'm quite sure when you became a CEO, someone didn't say Alan, here's the CEO 101 book, number one and number two. You're in a context that has never existed before To me. There's a little bit of no one knows what the hell the answer is. There is no answer necessarily. It's just what are the choice points and how are you going to move through it?

Speaker 1: 43:27

So I'm advising a firm that has grown very quickly, that's exciting.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Yeah, it's wonderful. And the CEO brought me in to talk to the board and one of the comments he made is he did what we want to do. He led a firm and then he admitted to his board. He goes I've never run a company this big and I've never run a company that's bigger than this. Now he has, and so one. I gave him a lot of credit for realizing that he doesn't have all the answers and he's willing to take input. He doesn't follow my advice all the time but and he listens but to your point he's never run a company like this. And it's interesting. There's this concept. I don't know where I saw this be like this and it's interesting. There's this concept. I don't know where I saw this, but gradually. Then suddenly, gradually they grew. Suddenly they're a half a billion dollar firm. Gradually they're going to be a billion dollar firm. And if you're not focused on what's happening gradually, you won't be prepared for suddenly.

Speaker 2: 44:24

You talked earlier that you live by a set of principles, and when I think about companies that are in hyper growth, leaders that are in unprecedented times, how important are a core set of principles in leading oh, I think they're critical One, because it will demonstrate consistency to your stakeholders.

Speaker 1: 44:47

If you communicate appropriately, it will be the foundation to everything you do, because they'll know the type of person you are.

Speaker 3: 44:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:56

And it won't be just haphazard, it'll tie everything together. So I think it's critical.

Speaker 2: 45:01

Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about that too, just like when I look at some of the best leaders and the best strat and the best comms, like there's this undercurrent of principles that run through it and you can even make mistakes, you can make, you can biff, you can eat in front of your C-suite, right. There's like from small, something like that very small to. We made an investment in this company and it was a stinker. Oh, move on. You know what I'm saying. There's a lot of forgiveness or elasticity in the culture when you do that.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Look, if your stakeholders know your principles, know what you stand for, whatever you want to say it, they'll understand the reasoning and they'll understand that these decisions were made with the right principles in mind or at the core. And again, not everything goes perfectly, but at least they'll understand why the decision was made, or how it was made, or what was made upon, etc.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Yeah, and that's inclusion to your point yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:19

All right, Wow rapid round. Well, this was meant to be fun, Alan, hopefully. Okay. Is it lonely at the top?

Speaker 1: 46:27

Doesn't have to be.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Good answer. Family Feud Good answer.

Speaker 1: 46:31

I think, look, you need to surround yourself with a lot of people, and they don't have to be people that work for you. You can't tell things to everybody, and if you surround yourself with the right people, have the right advisor, even internally. No, it's not lonely at the top. I wasn't lonely.

Speaker 3: 46:51

You have your community.

Speaker 1: 46:53

I really wasn't. I thought I was very connected to a lot of people and I engaged them as I could, but no, I wasn't lonely.

Speaker 2: 47:00

Can I ask a question? Did you have someone that would say, Ellen, that's nuts or no, you're absolutely wrong.

Speaker 1: 47:06

Oh, yeah, yeah, more than one. Some I gave permission to do that and some I didn't, or some did it before. They asked for forgiveness. Yeah, and I wanted that. I don't have all the answers. So, yeah, I wanted people to say, hold on Really, but now I push back. It would push back. What would it take? Why not?

Speaker 3: 47:30

They keep you honest and help you out by your blind spots. Yeah, yeah, would you recommend that your kid become a CEO?

Speaker 1: 47:39

I would recommend that my kids figure out what they wanted to do every day. Yeah, and I won't tell them to shy away from being a CEO if the opportunity presents itself. And I won't tell them to shy away from being a CEO if the opportunity presents itself. But the only way you're going to become a CEO, unless you start your own company, is if you're really good at doing what you want to do, because it takes head and heart and don't shy away from it. I didn't like me, I didn't plan for it and it's very rewarding and complicated and pukey and you know all these things.

Speaker 3: 48:13

Okay, Hot topic item CEO compensation. And not every CEO is paid $30 million a year, but this is a hot topic in the news these days. Do you think CEOs should be paid as much as they are?

Speaker 1: 48:30

All right. So I'm going to apologize to my mother because she told me don't answer a question with a question, so I'm going to play around here. If you're going to ask should CEOs be paid what they are paid, then should athletes, should movie stars should? Where does it stop? Now to your specific question. Yeah, I do think they should be paid a lot of money because look at what they're overseeing, Look at what they're stewarding, Look at the effect that they have and the multiplier effect that they have, whether it be for careers, whether it be for the public product or services. That doesn't happen by chance and if you think about skilled athletes, their careers are, on average, much shorter. They're taking a huge risk. In my profession, you take a huge risk when you become a senior leader because you give up your binky, your comfort, you give up a book of business.

Speaker 3: 49:28

Yes, if they're performing, they're performing they're making such the effect that commands a significant top level. I'm going to move, then, to layoffs, because I think there's a connection here to your point. You mentioned that if they're performing they should get that layoff. What's the best way for CEOs to show accountability during a layoff?

Speaker 1: 49:49

Layoffs are caused by a number of different things. They could be caused by a company not performing, bad strategy, bad execution. They could be caused by a pandemic. When I was leading the firm, we didn't do layoffs for a few years and I took the most significant cut in pay because I didn't want to take layoffs. I didn't want to execute layoffs. I didn't think it was the right thing to do in light of what was going on. So I don't think it's a one size fits all answer. Having said that, I would think that performance pay would be adjusted in situations where workforce had to be reduced because of an environment. I don't know if that happens all the time, yet I would think that would be. There would be an and to that. There were layoffs and senior leadership didn't make the money that they made the year before.

Speaker 2: 50:46

It's so interesting because you see this in the news where layoffs are happening, earnings are through the roof. Some of that might have been through efficiencies with layoffs, and a lot of these C-suite executives are like crickets we take accountability but they don't tell you how, and so they may be taking these cuts. But again, going back to the red thread throughout this whole conversation that you keep coming back to, alan, which I think is amazing is communication agreed.

Speaker 1: 51:19

I I think that there should be more communication around that. I think that there should be some how to the what of accountability. How are you going to take accountability?

Speaker 2: 51:30

No.

Speaker 1: 51:31

I'm convinced that if people were more communicative around that you don't need to give exact numbers, but you can give directional comments Right, there wouldn't be a withdrawal from the trust bank. Yeah, yeah, look at times, layoffs or rifts or whatever you want to call it. It's a necessity because of the business. I realize the employees are, the team members, are integral to the business, and this might be one of those things that you're not going to like. The business is a persona, as a being itself, too.

Speaker 2: 52:04

Yes, yes, corporations are, yes, they are. Yes, yes, corporations are, yes, they are.

Speaker 1: 52:07

And unfortunately people get caught in the squeeze. So the only way to at least make it understood, not agreed with or not liked or respected is, yeah, better communication.

Speaker 3: 52:30

Even you taking the pay cut before having to pull that lever to try to do everything you absolutely can goes a long way with employees when they see that or hear that. Is there a CEO?

Speaker 1: 52:35

that you admire and, if so, why. You know there's a couple of people I admire. They're both males, so I apologize for that. I think Ed Bastian at Delta has been fascinating. I fly Delta all the time. I love their customer service. I love what they stand for. I love his messaging. He seems to be a CEO of the people. I do think he came out of the public accounting world, which is pretty cool. I also like Jamie Dimon.

Speaker 2: 53:00

JP Morgan.

Speaker 1: 53:01

Yeah, I'm not anything like Jamie Dimon, other than there's some similarities. He says it the way it is. He's very matter of fact, he's very you're not going to like this, and that's some of the principles that I live by, so that's where I'll stop the comparison. I think he's great. I think he's just a real, true person and I've heard he's a real person outside the ropes. He's just a dude that happens to be the CEO of JP Morgan and he's crushed it. He's just done so well. There's so many others. As an addendum to this question, I love reading books by leaders, not leadership books, necessarily, books by leaders. I want to know their story. I said read Hastings' no Rules and David Cody and the book by Imbolt, and there's just so many books that I've read because I want to know their journey. I want to know how they did it and the stories are fantastic and I learned from them, and so the idea of passing it along through a book is wonderful. But those two I admire quite a bit. I really enjoy watching them.

Speaker 3: 54:04

What's the best leadership advice you've ever read?

Speaker 1: 54:07

I don't know if this is leadership advice or not. There's a book it's called Extreme Ownership.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Yeah, yeah, jocko.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Jocko Willick and in there. There's a lot of great stuff, but the one that I find myself using a lot in my coaching and helping teams and leaders get their shit together is discipline equals freedom. People think that discipline or structure ruins entrepreneurial spirit or it ruins. No, if you're disciplined in what you do and you set the plan and you execute it, it does allow you to have some freedom on the edges. So let's build that plan as opposed to just being all over the place, and it does allow you to have some freedom. So I like that From my point of view, just as my advice is read the books by the people that came before you. So read books by leaders that have been in the seat. It's amazing how much you learn. I was never a big reader as a kid by now. I can't stop.

Speaker 2: 55:11

I love reading it's so nourishing, right it is it is alan, it was awesome to talk with you today. Thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for being here, friend.

Speaker 1: 55:30

My pleasure. This is a great venue. I wish y'all luck in the world and I'm really humbled by you asking me to join you.

Speaker 4: 55:43

Thanks so much for joining us today, mel. We're back with new headlines next week. Yeah, yeah, we are All right. In the meantime, hit us up on TikTok, instagram, linkedin and YouTube at yourworkfriendspod and Mel. What else can they do?

Speaker 3: 55:56

Email us at friend@yourworkfriends.com. Send us a message, folks. We do reply.

Speaker 4: 56:03

We do reply. All right, Bye friends, Bye friends, Bye friends.

Socioeconomic Status Impacts to Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Socioeconomic Impacts to Work with Brayden Olson

Class isn’t invisible…

It shows up in how we speak, how we network, how we navigate work—and who gets hired. In this episode, we sit down with Brayden Olson, co-founder of Almas Insight and author of Twilight of the Idols, to expose how socioeconomic status silently shapes career access, confidence, and opportunity. From college applications to job interviews, we unpack the unspoken class system baked into our workplaces—and what it will take to finally level the playing field.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

the most significant determinant of someone's future is how much money they were born into, and it's not even close. So when you compare it to race and gender and sexual orientation and all of the other statistics that we have invested a lot of infrastructure in protecting for it doesn't even come close to the amount of advantage that people are experiencing based on wealth inequality.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Hey friends, we're excited because we have Brayden Olson with us. Brayden has had a long and successful career in the tech and human development space. In 2022, they became the co-founder of Amis Insight Inc. A company backed by Learn Capital that quickly and objectively measures human capability at scale. In 2019, they joined Deloitte as the Enduring Human Capability Center of Excellence lead, leading a team of passionate people about better understanding of human potential and how orgs can be even more effective by fostering that human potential. That's also where I had the pleasure of working with Brayden. Brayden also has a very deep background in game design. He was an NSF grant recipient for work in this field and has designed games to better understand human behavior. He worked with to pass legislation relevant to economic inequality the Washington Jobs Act in Washington State and he received a pen from the governor. So, brayden, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you here. You've had quite the journey, so we'd love to just hear about your journey. Tell us more about how you got started in this space.

Speaker 1: 1:52

My pleasure to be here, so great to be with some fellow Deloitte alumni. The way I like to talk a little bit about my journey. It's always easy to talk about the end state or the successes or the accomplishments. I really like to get the message out there. The reason I'm here today has a lot to do with where I came from.

Speaker 1: 2:11

My educational journey was hard so I didn't have money for school. I had to get basically a government program that helps Washington students go to school, basically get their associate's degree through community colleges first before going on to a four-year degree. I had to overload all my classes. I ended up graduating with my four-year degree 18 months after I graduated from high school, working in the school cafeteria and I barely made it right. I was on two-thirds merit scholarship, public subsidy, the whole thing. We'll get into it, but it's part of why I care about this stuff so much.

Speaker 1: 2:47

I went through a period where every day was looking at my bank account and thinking did I get another overdraft fee? Can I afford to eat this meal? There was a time before getting financing for my first company where I was like I don't have money to eat, I can't go get a sandwich and I always want to make the point my parents did absolutely the best for me that they could. There is nothing that they didn't do for me that they could do, so I don't want that to get mixed at all. The fact that I went on to become an author and a researcher and an entrepreneur at all is something that I am grateful for every day, and that was a hair's breadth from never happening. So that's the way I like to tell my journey and why I care about this stuff.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Yeah, it's incredibly important and powerful right, because that's what's really powering you behind all of this initiative and it makes sense. It's tough. We've been there, francesca, and I talk about it often that early, early days of just the struggle bus when you're getting started and it being really difficult. And I have a very similar background to you, brayden, so for me your work is also really important. I just think giving people the opportunity that you had to really struggle to find is incredibly important. We're here today to talk about socioeconomic bias. You've written a book about it. You've built technology to help eliminate it. What is socioeconomic bias? Explain it to someone like they're five. What is it at the most basic definition level?

Speaker 1: 4:19

Yeah, I'll say it personally and then I'll say it more technically. When I went through that process I just described and I said I was so close to none of these things ever happening, I went back and I did the numbers and if I had been two years younger, the increased cost of tuition would have meant that none of this would have ever happened in my life. I would have ran out of money for food before I became an entrepreneur and anything subsequent to happen to that. So what socioeconomic biases mean is, you know, put you in the same role that were, but a couple of years later and all of a sudden you become a different person. You can't make it. Those doors closed for you.

Speaker 1: 4:59

This is an active and progressive issue. Now, in a more general sense, society can be structured so that an individual's fate is based on their contributions or on their endowments, in other words, what they bring to the table and what they do for others, or what they started with. And socioeconomic inequality is what kind of a culture do you want to live in? One that's a feudalist culture you're inherited into whatever your life is going to be, or one where your ambition and capability and talent are what drive those outcomes?

Speaker 2: 6:05

no-transcript. Something that really hit me hard was that story that came out about celebrities who were paying for their kids to get into those prestigious schools when they didn't have the merit or do the work to do it. And you just think, oh my God, that's just so unfair to so many people that these little kind of backdoor entries into these institutions exist even.

Speaker 3: 6:38

But Mel, the Full House mom's daughter, was an influencer, so we could talk a lot about being on the rowing team and I wrote at UConn, so I was like even that's fake.

Speaker 2: 6:47

It made me so angry, but so I just. I really think this is such a critical topic because it does. It starts in in the education space, which we know. Education and higher education isn't the only path to success right in the world today. However, that is a big path to success and opportunity, and when there's five padlocks to get through those doors, you can't even get into the workplace because it starts with the education piece. So it's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Can I give you an unfun?

Speaker 2: 7:19

fact. Oh, please do, please share.

Speaker 1: 7:23

This is unfortunately an unfun one, but so I was doing a little research on this recently myself. I was talking with someone who's from a different generation and we were talking about what's changed, and he'd gone to Harvard himself and he was aghast to know that now there's this industry built around graduate advisors. And you would think what's a graduate advisor? Oh, if you get your master's, you have a graduate advisor who helps you get ready for your PhD. No, these are private graduate advisors. Use them for applying to master's programs or undergraduate programs, and they're admission officers that then sell their services to help you prepare your essay, your extracurriculars, what clubs you should say that you belong to, exactly what to say in your application. What they're looking for and what they promise is for $25,000, 90% or higher rates of acceptance into your top three schools of your choice. So, regardless of merit or background or current level of education, they can get 90% of the people they help, or above, placed in one of their top three schools in the world.

Speaker 2: 8:30

That's the system, unreal, because they're admission counselors and they have that network. How is that not a conflict of interest?

Speaker 1: 8:37

Yeah, so it's admission counselors who just left the admission board and it is a conflict of interest and the implication is but they don't have any insight today. They're not in touch with the colleagues that just rolled into the admission office. I don't believe that personally, especially with those rates of success. But that is the idea, is that it's not quite illegal because they are not currently the admission officers.

Speaker 3: 9:01

I like to frame that under hashtag bullshit.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Unreal, 100%, all right and we know this is rampant in education but say you made it through those hurdles. You have your education. Now You're ready to go out into the working world. How does this show up in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 9:19

I'm going to answer that, but I just have to like say but the premise is, how many people are making those hurdles? I think we really think there's so many more people who are able to get through an educational system, but it's what? Third? A third of people get through, and most of it is financially derived now. So I just want to say those are big hurdles. It's hard to get to the other side, but once you get to the other side, they're going to show up.

Speaker 1: 9:47

There was a scandal a couple of years ago that I actually think is maybe one of the best things that could have happened.

Speaker 1: 9:53

That has happened, which was Amazon created an algorithm completely de-biased, objective algorithm, in theory that was just meant to basically look through people's resumes and indicate, you know, who should be brought in for interview, and when they set the AI to look at the commonalities in the resume, what they found is that the people they had and the people that they were bringing in were from the same schools, from the same clubs, from the same associations, and so the same is true for birds of a feather flock together, right?

Speaker 1: 10:30

So if your senior boss went to the same alma mater that you do and I don't want to make it just about school but is in the same club as you. Right, you're in the golf club. Together. That is going to influence your career, and so, at every step, at every juncture, we place people that we have connection and familiarity to. So, even after the schooling is done, it's what clubs and associations you block to, which, again, are related to how much money you have. Right, you don't belong to the golf club and you don't belong to the Columbia Tower Club. You don't belong to the St James Club, unless you're already wealthy enough to be there.

Speaker 2: 11:09

I worked in talent acquisition for years prior to getting into talent development and that is absolutely rampant in organizations where it's.

Speaker 2: 11:19

These are the schools that our people are from, they're alumni.

Speaker 2: 11:23

These are our main campuses that we're gonna focus our time and attention to and there are a lot of services that come with that relationship, because internal talent acquisition teams at organizations typically build deep relationships with the programs at those schools career services offices, they provide workshops, they provide interview prep. You're providing all of these free services and connection and relationship with those quote unquote chosen schools. And then you have what we would call essentially these are the fringe schools and the time and effort and resources aren't really put into recruiting from those schools unless someone's really pushing for it, and it used to be just mind boggling to me like how much talent are we missing out on? Because you will only prioritize these 10 schools and we have 30 that we can choose from, with exceptional candidates coming out of all of them. But if it's between two candidates, there's this preference for someone that comes from one of those known schools. I know that's changing and there's a lot of good discussion around that today, but it's definitely hard to see and hard to work through.

Speaker 1: 12:35

You might actually have this data point better than I do. I just generally say how many people get jobs going through the standard, apply for it on the website, submit your resume, get called on the basis of your resume, and how many people get jobs because they know someone at that company. Right In my mind, the most common way and I'd love to hear your expertise on it. But referrals are socioeconomic bias. Inherently they know you because you are in a social sphere to know them, whether that was from your parents or from your school or from your social club or from your church. That is inherently the system and I again, you might know the numbers better, but I would imagine it's pretty high the number of people who get in through a referral.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Yeah, we have obviously nepotism rules that you need to follow to avoid that bias and try to get ahead of bias taking place just in terms of standards. But you could definitely feel the unspoken pressure right of this person in particular really wants them to come in for this internship and at times, yeah, you're like what the hell, man, I don't want to be part of this choice or this conversation, and referrals are definitely a way that it at least gets your foot in the door for a screening interview the majority of the time.

Speaker 3: 13:58

And referrals. When you're in the organization, they're incented. We were offered thousands of dollars If we found someone from our network and they were hired into those organizations. We would get thousands of dollars for that. It's not even just a hey, could you refer this person in it's? You're financially incented to do that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Yeah, and on one hand seems harmless.

Speaker 3: 14:26

Seems like it yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:28

It seems very efficient. It cuts down on the time of potentially finding good candidates right, because that takes time and money. I always go back to it. Started with positive intent but quickly got dark.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 14:42

Why are we all white guys named Chad Exactly?

Speaker 2: 14:45

Why are we all?

Speaker 1: 14:46

white guys named Chad. We were all part of the rowing club.

Speaker 3: 14:50

You went to University of Illinois too. Oh my God yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I accidentally made it on the rowing team. My friends will tell you.

Speaker 3: 14:57

How do you accidentally make it? How do you accidentally Listen?

Speaker 2: 15:00

it was a dare to try out. It was like a fluke thing and I'll just yeah anyway, but then it was awesome. With everything, there are misconceptions on topics. So what are some common misconceptions that people often think about? Socioeconomic bias in general and then in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 15:36

I'm going to respond to that question with a question, and this is a little bit of a hot take on my part, or I want to say a hot take. It's really sound in the data, but there's a lot to talk about here. So my question is what do you think are some of the most common biases that we talk about in workplaces today, or that we create policies around?

Speaker 3: 15:56

Race gender, age, sexual orientation, religion.

Speaker 1: 16:03

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot we talk about in this field. So there's some great research just three years ago out of Georgetown that shows the most significant determinant of someone's future is how much money they were born into, and it's not even close. So when you compare it to race and gender and sexual orientation and all of the other statistics that we have invested a lot of infrastructure in protecting for it doesn't even come close to the amount of advantage that people are experiencing based on wealth inequality. So the common misconception is this is not as big of a deal as it really is.

Speaker 2: 16:44

I believe that, though, because we have an unspoken class system in the US, I like to say we don't have this caste or class system here, or you often hear, oh, middle class, what does this truly mean? But it does feel like people have their stations and it gets harder and harder to climb to the next level, and there's this misconception that you can do anything if you just pull up your breech straps. You've been going and work hard, but it is not the case.

Speaker 1: 17:17

That is what the economic data tells us.

Speaker 3: 17:20

I think because there's a money thing to it. There's also to me. I grew up upper middle class. I remember I had someone very close to me that their parents had immigrated to this country and he was eight when he immigrated and I remember we were both in grad school and I was going into corporate. My parents were both corporate, his parents worked in factories and we had this discussion around navigating corporate and that I knew what to do because my parents were helping me navigate all of this stuff. There was a language that I inherently grew up with and understood, that was absolutely foreign to him, and it was the first time in my life where I was like, oh wow, it's a money and opportunity piece. It's also a unwritten language of how do you even navigate college applications, how do you navigate social crap that happens when you're in these circles or not. It's all of that.

Speaker 2: 18:17

It's all of that with Francesca and I talk about it all the time because we're like, wow, this experience was way different. But like you, brayden, and to your point, francesca, similarly I did not have that guidance. It was a financial aid officer at UConn that helped me fill out my FAFSA, because my parents didn't help me do it. And then I remember my first job interview. I didn't realize you had to wear a suit because I didn't have parents to teach me. They were like telling me that guidance and I borrowed a friend's suit to interview because I was rejected by three jobs because I showed up in a button down shirt and pants and it wasn't a formal suit and I was like, what's the problem? Why does that matter? And I didn't even own a suit and I didn't have the money to buy a suit, so I borrowed one just to have that first interview.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yeah, I would love to amplify because you're exactly right, it's all of these subtle and small things we don't even think about. And then there's this level deeper let's talk about, like how a person perceives themselves in the world, confidence, what their worth, what their inherent worth is as a human being. And when they study this they're like they can do the standardized tests on kids young and they'd be like this kid's in the top 10 percentile in terms of math capability, but bottom 10 percentile in terms of economics, and what happens? So they see that their scores go down and down and down Right, and the other kids scores go up, and part of that is the tutors that the parents can afford, but the other part of that is one of these kids is getting affirmation.

Speaker 1: 19:53

One of these kids is being told that they're worth something and that they're loved and that they're valued. And that adds up in how, like, I'm going to take it all the way to the workplace, right? So you have that kid who starts out like always feeling they're super talented, they're super capable, and they always feel behind and they're always made to feel not enough or not as good as their peers. Are they asking for promotions when they're 25 and when they're 30 and when they're 35? Or are they just happy to be there if they succeeded in being anywhere? And so there's, like this inner confidence and value and self-worth and problem of caste systems, as you said, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Yeah, it sounds like there's a lifelong kind of issue there where they're not going to ask for those opportunities or feel they're worth going after them. So, man, we could probably talk about two hours I'm like oh, there's so much to uncover, how, how does this, or does it even differ between industries or professions Is there? Is it more rampant in certain professions over others, or have you found that it's pretty much across the board?

Speaker 1: 21:02

Well, it's going to sound like good news. It's not across the board, but the bad news is it's directly proportional to how much status, money, privilege, come with that position. So the more desired the position, the more socioeconomic barriers will be an impediment If you want to be a CEO, or you want to be a senator, or you want to be an astronaut, or you want to be if it has power, and so you can see this again. I've done some of my own research more recently and my own personal experience with graduate programs, so it's fresh on my mind. I don't want to keep going back there, but the families that are wealthy want their kids to go get a medical degree, get a law degree, get a business degree, get an engineering degree. These are going to be inherently more competitive and bought and purchased programs. Someone going for a fine arts degree? I don't know, there's probably not a lot of low economic people that are trying to go to a four-year school to get a fine arts degree, but it's more competitive the more money is associated with the role.

Speaker 3: 22:06

I'm laughing because my undergrad was in Italian printmaking, which is etching on copper plates. Again, I made really dumb shit decisions. Sorry, yeah, I'm laughing. Oh, yeah, oh my god was that about privilege I'm gonna come for?

Speaker 1: 22:26

I'm here for the joke, yeah but it's yeah, I love it and yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's good, we need to care about the issue. We need to laugh too, because that's how you do with this stuff. It's good, we need to care about these issues. We need to laugh too, because that's how you deal with this stuff. It's sad, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:39

I love that we're having this conversation and we can joke about it, right, because, okay, what can we do to make it better? That's the ultimate goal, and talking about it helps bring awareness. I think even just sharing our personal stories about what was your experience like can be really eye-opening of how different Back I remember when I was younger, I knew there was a difference, but I didn't realize how much. And it's these stories as I get older, with peers and friends and talking about it, where you're like holy shit, how do you change this? How?

Speaker 3: 23:07

do you change it? Brayden? One of the things you talked about earlier was this idea of confidence from an individual. What is the long-term impact of socioeconomic bias on individuals? One of those impacts could be on the confidence piece, but what have you found in terms of what are some of the other long-term impacts of this, as people are going through their career.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Okay, let's take it step by step. I think that self-worth thing develops early. I think whether you can afford to get an education which a majority of people won't. So these are big barriers each time. So, whether you can afford to, can you get into a prestigious one? Do you have the with the right people in the right ways especially now with the remote work outside of work, in your social clubs and golf clubs and whatever to get promoted more quickly as you go through your career? For most people that's about promotions.

Speaker 1: 24:09

I do want to take a slight turn and say a lot of these people don't do it through the traditional career workforce. Right, they might go on to be politicians or celebrities or. But I'm an entrepreneur. A lot of people are trying to move in that direction now and that is highly correlated. Whether the people that can make your company successful I how deep do I want to get into this, there's so much I can say being able to get money for your company is completely who. You know, I sit in these different meetings, so I see both perspectives very clearly.

Speaker 1: 24:44

For people who go in and pitch to VCs and the VC doesn't know who that person is, is a button down professional pitch, super nuts, they are going to talk about the business and they're probably going to get a no. If the VC knows the person and again, I sit in on these calls they say, oh, nevermind, don't worry about the pitch. Yeah, how are we going to get this done? Verbatim, how are we going to structure this deal? Which of our friends are we bringing in on it?

Speaker 1: 25:11

Which? Which influencers are we going to tap for this one? Oh, it's like the other one we did right, so let's tap this one and this one. So it's everywhere. And so they might do it within promotions, they might do it by trying to be an entrepreneur or start their own business. They're still going to count it. And I think the longest term implication, and the one that we need to be the most concerned about and talk the most about, is that the impact of socioeconomic inequality on that person's life is also going to be the primary determinant of the success of their child's life and their child's life. It's like generational at this point.

Speaker 3: 25:49

Yes, I just read a study that one of the greatest impacts on a child's happiness and their well-being is actually how happy the mother is. Did you see that?

Speaker 1: 26:00

Which makes sense.

Speaker 1: 26:01

So there's a great book called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which is written by one of the greatest addiction experts in the world, and in that book he talks about all of this research and about basically what leads to addiction.

Speaker 1: 26:19

His point is amazing, which is we're all oriented to addiction and we all have some form of addiction. The question is, how much do we express it? And that has to do with how much we suffer, love the message. But his point on this mother thing is he says that the number one determinant, or the most impactful determinant around whether someone will become a drug addict is the abnormalities that they have in their serotonin and dopamine production, because basically, people who have abnormalities will have different experiences with drugs, where it's like they really don't feel normal without them, and the primary determinant of that is how much eye contact they have with the mother between the ages of one and three and what were her stress levels. And so then you think about that and it's which mothers are with their children constantly between one and three and don't have stress or have the least amount of stress.

Speaker 3: 27:14

When I think about some of the highest stressors that people face too money, if you are feeling like you're living paycheck to paycheck or you're on the verge of homelessness that amount of stress, in addition to raising children, in addition to trying to be a partner or a spouse or a daughter, a son, a sibling, it's incredible. That's an incredible amount of stress. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:35

And working right. And the other thing we didn't say is how many families can either parent but one of the parents afford not to work? That's a wealth option. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:49

That's from a For those folks that have gone through all of those hurdles. I'm looking at two of them that have gone through that and come out very successful as well. Are there advantages Meaning are you stronger minded, right, or something of this sort? Do you find that there's better skills coming out of that or no? Is this a bad?

Speaker 2: 28:11

this is a weird question but you get where I'm going with this. No, it's not a weird question.

Speaker 1: 28:15

I did a talk on resilience and we talked about what breeds resilience and there's lots of things metacognition and lots of things are really important to talk about. One of the really important things is how much have you been through? And if you can reference back to oh, I've been through harder times than this right, that's the easiest way to be resilient. I did that. I can survive this right. So resilience is directly proportional to how much someone goes through and experiences. I think empathy is a muscle that you're gonna grow, because it's easy to see, when you almost don't make it, why someone else might not have made it, and that not being a reflection of their inadequacies or, um, in game build lack of capable. I think it's a really relevant consideration. I think the problem is that you never really know where you would have gotten without the barriers, so you can't really compare to who you would have been and I can't say whether it would have been better or worse.

Speaker 3: 29:19

In a way that's true for everybody Right have you ever seen the? Movie Sliding Doors with Gwyneth Paltrow. What was that, Mel? From like 1994? I have no idea. I think so. Yeah, I love that movie. Brady, do you know the premise of this movie?

Speaker 1: 29:31

I don't, you'll have to tell me.

Speaker 3: 29:33

You're like really, this is what we're talking about. So the premise of the movie is Gwyneth Paltrow. Basically, she takes one subway or she takes another subway, and depending on which subway she takes, her life just ends up completely different. Like it's that question of if I would have just taken path A, how would my life be different? The answer is that question, but it also begs an interesting question In order to gain empathy, or resilience too, do people have to go through hardship in order to get? That Is a different question. Curious about impact, so we talked about it at the individual, I am wondering how this might impact work, culture or impact a team.

Speaker 1: 30:13

I'll say a light thing first, which is the birds of a feather thing again. Right, so teams are probably going to get organized around people they know and comfort level, and so birds of a feather, that's a very light thing. I think that as a culture, we are moving more and more towards what makes us different. It's all about this group and that group and you're not part of my group and my group group and that group and you're not part of my group and my group just got smaller today and you're not part of it anymore, and so as we move in that direction, this becomes part of it. It's one more thing that divides people. That's where you middle class or low class or upper class and do I trust you because of that or do I not trust you because of that? Does one group feel resentment towards the other or contempt towards the other? I see those things showing up. I don't want to speak to other people's experiences, but that's something that we see emerging. So that relates to teams, right, people who might not feel as comfortable trusting of each other, because it's one more divide that's getting between us.

Speaker 1: 31:11

My bigger message on that and we could circle back to it later, but I don't know. I just said circle back. I know that's like the most hated term in corporate. We could talk about that again at a later time. But the real message is like there are so many things that divide us right now. How do we start unifying? Because this is an issue that impacts almost everyone in the United States. Like you can make arguments about oh, I'm upper middle class or middle class or lower middle class or dirt poor, or, but it's really just like the one percent and then everybody else. The differences are so severe and so substantial.

Speaker 1: 31:51

And look, harvard ain't admitting that many people this year. Nor is Oxford, right, we're talking about small numbers of people in one camp. And look, harvard ain't admitting that many people this year. Nor is Oxford, right, we're talking about small numbers of people in one camp. And there's just so many other things that divide us today. And a lot of us have this in common, and it is again the single most impactful thing as to what our futures will look like, at least financially speaking, at least in terms of our wealth and accomplishments. We got a lot in common, and I think coming together is going to help a lot.

Speaker 3: 32:19

You feel it in politics. This isn't a political statement by any means, but when you look at, for example, a lot of what the Trump campaign had run on, continues to run on, is this idea of you've been left behind economically and I'm going to be the person that's going to bring it back in. And then you have the Biden administration, which is looking at more, bringing everybody along. They're both an economic message coming from different places, but I feel like both of those messages are very different. They're very divided. So you have the politics happening with that kind of economic message. You also have technology, with AI, and we just got the job support, for example.

Speaker 3: 32:59

I think, there's going to be a lot more fear around economics and the 1% and those that aren't. How do we move towards that common ground when it just feels like there are so many vices that are just pushing us further and further, apart from an economic perspective?

Speaker 1: 33:18

I can sometimes sound like a super pessimist when I talk about the data, but this is actually something I'm quite optimistic about, oh, sweet, because we need some good news, because I'm like, I'm bummed, bring the good news please Look.

Speaker 1: 33:31

At the end of the day, we have a lot that's working to divide us. Your point is exactly the right point and I'll put even, like a pin on top of it, who is the Trump administration speaking to and who is the Biden administration speaking to. They're talking about different economic problems, so I'll just put a label on it. I'll be the person.

Speaker 1: 33:52

One might be talking about white male problems and the other might be talking about people of color problems, women problems, and the reality is the cake for all of us is getting smaller every year and has been since 1971. Under every administration Republican, democrat, doesn't matter. Congress controlled by Democrats, president, republican doesn't matter, matter Congress controlled by Democrats, president, republican doesn't matter. Every administration, the pie has got smaller for all of those groups. Now we're fighting over it in different ways and it might be getting split up in different ways, but it's getting smaller for all of us and has been consistently. And the reason I say I'm a bit of an optimist is one humans might be my belief, but I think most of us are empathetic and compassionate and believe in essential equality, believe in modern political terms. They talk about this kind of era as liberal equality what is?

Speaker 1: 34:51

that, okay, there's all. So all political philosophy is underpinned by moral philosophy. So we start with a set of morality and then we build it into an idea, and utilitarianism was an idea that we should maximize the good for everyone. Right, and so it became a political movement that, under that kind of, helped destroy feudalism, because it was like this isn't the best for all. There's these three people at the top, or whatever. Unfortunately, we've come back around back to dead your servants.

Speaker 3: 35:23

Okay, fantastic, that's good all right.

Speaker 1: 35:25

So then we entered into this, this era, and there's some great works by a guy named Rawls and Dworkin great names to a theory of justice and and it's a lot of what we talk about today where they're like, hey, this is what it would ideally look like and a lot of people bought into this message.

Speaker 1: 35:43

It's where a lot of these like pushes for equality and people shouldn't have these negative dispositions on them. Unfortunately, it hasn't really translated to our politics, but it is something we naturally feel. So I think there is both this sense in human beings that, like we innately have compassion, and there's this cultural zeitgeist that, like people fundamentally feel about what is right in politics, and so there's a lot of systems that are holding that back, but it is holding back something that is natural, something that is believed and accept and been felt by most people, like super majority of people, and so my optimism is look, the politicians are not going to lead us to the promised land here, like they are working to create divisiveness among us, and whether that's a conspiracy or what helps them get elected doesn't matter to me. They're not solving the problem.

Speaker 3: 36:39

No, the data shows that yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:40

Yeah, but we should be optimistic about the future because culturally we hold these beliefs and take off some of this kind of unnatural confusion and we're compadres. We're in the same journey, fighting for the same things.

Speaker 3: 36:54

Yeah, I just feel like there's so much more that unites us than divides us instinctually and actually as well that it'd be. I am looking forward to seeing more of us leaning into that and not waiting for institutions to make that happen.

Speaker 1: 37:11

I agree, and that's where it's going to come from. I think it comes from us as individuals, but a mentor of mine says he teaches leadership to, has the best selling books on leadership in the world and he really understands the topic. He said I've given up on politics. I gave up a long time ago. Any hope I have in the future is in business leaders stepping up, and so I think it's individuals and I think it's organizations that are hopefully going to move this message forward.

Speaker 3: 37:36

There's a lot of organizations can do right.

Speaker 1: 37:38

Yes, there is, especially when 96% of elections are won by whoever raised the most money.

Speaker 3: 37:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:47

And now about 80% of the money that goes into campaigns comes from businesses and super PACs. So there's a lot of the business community.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Absolutely, absolutely so what measures can organizations start to take? One to identify the socioeconomic biases that they're upholding within their structures and systems and policies.

Speaker 1: 38:29

There are some basic things right. Ditch the degree requirements, especially where they don't matter. You could say stronger programs around, don't take referrals, so maybe don't incentivize the referrals or put some policies in place to stop them. Obviously, I'm going to say gather human capability data to actually understand the people and look at what is effective instead of where people came from. Ask more about people's stories in the interview process and filter that information into how you're judging their responses. As an example to your case, mel, if they asked about your background, maybe they could have overlooked that you weren't in a suit, building stronger reskilling programs, thinking about people as people and saying you know what. You didn't get a two-year accounting degree, but you've got all the makings and we're going to invest in some people this year and get them skilled up. The upswing for companies is these are exceptionally loyal people. That's everything that we see in the data. So if you want to save a ton of money on attrition, invest it on these kinds of programmatic changes.

Speaker 2: 39:39

I think that's such an important call out. I think organizations miss the forest through the trees because they're not going to see an immediate return on investment in some of these things or don't see the value of implementing some of these things. What role does leadership play here in addressing and reducing these issues in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 39:58

Referencing Bill George leadership at Harvard for 23 years. He wrote the True North book series. I've had a beyond unbelievable opportunity to be mentored by him for 16 years, which came out of nowhere. It was one of these never should have happened things. But actually you know what I'm going to tell that story because I think it answers a bit of your question.

Speaker 1: 40:22

So I was, he was doing a tour, talking to all these universities, and he came by a relatively not prestigious Seattle university and gave a talk. I skipped my class so that I could attend. I didn't know who he was, but the talk was on like ethical leadership and that was appealing to me. And so I went to this talk and I just challenged him in a polite way. I was if you're so good at business, like, why didn't you start your own? Why did you just become a CEO of a company that was almost a billion dollars and then make it a international 18 billion or something? At the end of his tenure grew at 23%, and he loved that. And so I went up after and I gave him my card and he was like oh, I'm so glad that you, that you came up, let's keep in touch. And I emailed him once and he never responded. I emailed him a second time he never responded. I emailed him a third time he never responded. I emailed him a fourth time and he was like I was waiting to hear from you, so good to hear from you.

Speaker 1: 41:15

And two years later we went for a run together and he was like do you know why we're friends? And I said I have no idea. And and I had just passed him on the track and he was like do it one more time and I'll tell you. And he was a good runner, but mind you. But I looped him again and he said no one that I teach at Harvard will run.

Speaker 1: 41:36

And so, in a way, he was looking for people that aren't normal, not what most of these leaders are surrounded by, which is people that they're very comfortable with, that don't challenge them, that just support their views, that just say gosh, you're the best person that I've ever met met. And I do want to say I'm sure there are some people at Harvard and not everyone is there with all these things that we're talking about. So I don't want to say anything negative about any institution, but the point nonetheless he was looking for something really different than what organizational leaders typically look for, and I think that's what we need to do. And this is the long way of moving back to that.

Speaker 1: 42:21

96% of politicians win based on who raised the most money. So politicians aren't going to change it. It's on business leaders, and I think it's the defining issue of our time. So I think it's up to us. I think that business leaders have to look outside what's efficient, natural, comfortable in front of them and say this is an issue I'm aware of. What can I do about it in the day to day things that I do.

Speaker 2: 42:48

When you think about business leaders presence throughout communities, it's massive. Your experience alone a lot of business leaders spend a lot of time on campus, where people are just beginning their journeys of career exploration. So even how they show up there or think of candidates differently, or interacting with students differently and having those conversations or being willing to give, I got to ask, though I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: 43:15

I think we are absolutely not talking about the very important thing in that story is you had a card in undergrad.

Speaker 1: 43:24

I didn't want to say anything Absolutely, and I will make even more fun of myself. I wore suits.

Speaker 3: 43:36

Oh.

Speaker 1: 43:36

I know.

Speaker 3: 43:37

We're ending the conversation right now. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more.

Speaker 1: 43:47

I was working in the school cafeteria, I was overloading on my classes and I was trying to start a company, and so I was like, okay, I'm like, I am showing up to this game, I am working as hard as I can work I actually I don't even know how I did it these days but so I was like suit, I had a card for my company. I was like this is my dream, I'm going to go after it. That was me, and so this one other guy we joke now because we're both like super laid back and super I wear like Mandarin cut shirts and not normal. And we were the two like. We showed up in suits and we stayed friends and we're both like the opposite now oh, that's so funny.

Speaker 3: 44:22

How did you know to do that? Like literally, how did you know to do that?

Speaker 1: 44:25

or did you just free this up? Gosh, I didn't. I certainly didn't know how to do it. I struggled for such a long time. Yeah, I had no experience, no, no one to teach me at all. I did so many things wrong for so long. I guess it was just like I was just going to give it everything I had every day. But again, if I had been two years younger, none of it would have ever happened. It didn't matter that I had overloaded all my classes and still graduated magna cum laude and big gamma sigma and worked in the school cafeteria and didn't have enough money and started a business. None of it would have mattered. It wouldn't have been enough.

Speaker 2: 45:04

Timing and luck are big components of, in addition to that ambition piece and the business cards, let's not forget the business cards.

Speaker 1: 45:16

And don't underestimate the kids sitting in the suit in the business class.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Wear your suits, class kids.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Kids go in places.

Speaker 2: 45:26

AI is the hot topic everywhere. What role does technology play in either holding up socioeconomic bias or eliminating it in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 45:39

I think that totally has to do with what leaders do. I think it'd be very the technologies are becoming available. I'm working on them, other people are. It calls on leaders to not ignore the technologies that are becoming available, to recognize that they will get lower attrition rates, that they are going to save money, that they are going to get better people and that they're going to do good for the world all at the same time.

Speaker 1: 46:04

And honestly, you mentioned AI and automation. Are some of my biggest concerns because throughout time, the conflict has been between labor and capital. All economics or models are built on this, and wages for labor has not matched productivity gains for 55 years now something like that and the problem with AI and automation is the power of the labor class to negotiate is getting pulled out from under them. It's been a concern. I think it is an increasing concern and I don't know how fast it's all going to change. But labor needs to negotiate now and get political influence now if we're going to live in something other than a dystopian altered carbon society in the future. Yeah, because yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:57

It is a little scary Because, yeah, it is a little scary. Yolo, yeah, all for universal income. It's like figuring this out Because, to your good point, the room to negotiate is getting smaller and smaller and I think most organizations don't even know yet what this looks like for them. So it's like in five years time, what world are we going to be living in? Your company, Almas Insights, you are building technology. You have technology that helps remove inherent bias in resume review, referrals, interviews. Can you tell us more about that tech?

Speaker 1: 47:31

Yeah, absolutely, and I'll give some thank yous here as well. So the essence of our technology is we put someone in a digital work sample for 45 minutes and they go through a variety of situations like you will experience in the workplace and demonstrate their preferences and behaviors and capabilities and how they respond and how they react and that's all cool, but that's not actually what we do. What we actually do is all the data on the other side where we say what kinds of people are being successful in this role at this organization, and that all happens automatically in the data. So a company just baselines it. The statistical significant things basically highlight in that and the machine learning algorithm matches that with people who are applying or people who already exist in that job who have also taken the measurement. So all of that becomes automated and it says this person is likely to stay with your firm for a long time If you hire them. This person is likely to be high potential in this role, and it's all objective data.

Speaker 1: 48:34

But what we did and I think what proved to be one of the important aspects of how we approach this was we put it in a fully contextualized environment. So when I say digital work sample. I don't just mean situational questions. There are avatars on screen. You see what's going on. You have full context of the experience towards Deloitte and also the University of Washington. There was a validation study that doesn't eliminate all other biases, and it did so. Level of education didn't matter. What someone's current job was didn't matter they could be an Uber driver or a Deloitte consultant because they had so much context. And then people said, hey, this was like the most accurate thing that I've seen for a Sethi and myself.

Speaker 2: 49:22

This is going to completely remove all bias about your match to this role and how powerful for talent acquisition to find the right people for the right jobs at the right time. That helps with workforce planning. That helps with so many things. So kudos to you, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 49:40

I'm excited about it. Vision here is, as you look at unemployment right and you look at some of these people who are very talented and on the fringe and being overlooked, having something that can give employers confidence and giving people like that opportunity is what the world needs more of.

Speaker 2: 50:00

Yeah, that's huge and giving those people confidence as well. Totally brayden, we like to close out each episode with a rapid round. These don't have to be one word answers, but maybe one sentence, and it's just to get your like immediate reaction to some of these questions. How does that?

Speaker 1: 50:38

all right, let's see.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Okay, if you could change one workplace process or rule nationwide for everyone, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 50:48

I guess I go to ban the degree or forget the degree thing.

Speaker 2: 50:52

What's one book everyone should read on this topic.

Speaker 1: 50:57

It's so hard. I would say, if they're interested in just the economics and reality of what's happening capitalism in the 21st century by pickety if they are interested in the political concepts, that we should probably be listening more to a theory of justice by rawls. And of course, I would be amiss to not mention I also have a book on the topic which is Twilight of the Idols, an American Story which gets into. How is this impacting, in particular, young American lives today?

Speaker 2: 51:29

Yeah, we'll link to that. We'll link to that in the show notes for everyone. What's the biggest barrier to workplace equality?

Speaker 1: 51:37

Two words, but downstream consequences. Tell me more equality Two words, but downstream consequences, tell me more. Yeah, well, so we can't start fixing it in the workplace? It starts with kindergarten, right? And so the downstream consequence of having someone, as we talked about, not confident, or having someone who couldn't get a college degree, or having someone, and then the downstream consequence on the other side of this is going to be the primary determinant of their children's future. It's a downstream consequence problem. I don't think we could just say the workplace fixes this.

Speaker 2: 52:06

What was your first job and what did it teach you about socioeconomic bias?

Speaker 1: 52:11

Working in the school cafeteria to pay for my college degree. That's my first like real job and people look at you different. That's what I learned. There's the kids who need to do that and the kids who don't need to do that, and I learned real quick that people look at you different when you are serving them their food. And it's just heartbreaking to know that.

Speaker 1: 52:31

They're your peers. So it's like it's one thing if it's the local Taco Bell or something, but if it's like it's you and your classmates and they're out behind the cafeteria and you are behind the cafeteria, yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:43

Yeah. What's one myth about this topic that you want to bust today for everybody?

Speaker 1: 52:49

It's just the insignificance of it. It's that it is the single most determining factor of someone's future and we need to organize around that. We are in this together.

Speaker 2: 53:00

What's one piece of advice you would give to your younger self? And we need to organize around that we are in this together. What's one piece of advice you would?

Speaker 1: 53:05

give to your younger self. This one's hard, it's just hard feedback to give. But I think I would tell my younger self play the game, Don't lose your soul. And then give it all away. And I probably could have gone a lot further, a lot faster, if this didn't enrage me so much. But but I wanted to beat the system or prove it a different way. And the system is the way the system is. If you have influence, help break it, but you have to have the influence first.

Speaker 2: 53:40

We're glad you were enraged because you're doing good things. Last question future of work. Are you optimistic or pessimistic?

Speaker 1: 53:48

I think short-term, long-term, short-term pessimistic, long-term optimistic Pessimistic because what are the things happening and what is the direction they're going, but optimistic because movement towards public benefit, corporations, triple bottom lines, intentional communities which probably no one on this, or a lot of these people, are not going to be aware of.

Speaker 1: 54:10

So I will just say there, these groups there's more than 10,000 in the world now. I had no idea how many, but there's like an example, twin Oaks in Virginia and it's a group of people, a couple hundred people that live and work together and they sell like tofu and hammocks and stuff like that. But everybody makes the same money, they all live comfortably, they have stipends they can spend on whatever they want, they have 600,000 in profit every year that they invest in their community and it's very much how indigenous tribes live. I had the opportunity to live with one for a couple of weeks, which is amazing. But there are all these models emerging where people are taking care of each other and thinking about business differently. We've never really seen culture sustain economic inequality as long as we are seeing here. So change is bound to happen, and hopefully really positive and really soon.

Speaker 2: 55:10

Brayden, we're glad you are working towards helping to change that little by little in what you're doing, because eventually that will become what is it take one bite and suddenly the whole meal is done right, like it'll be a bigger impact long-term so excited to see it and we really appreciate you talking about this with us today.

Speaker 1: 55:29

Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 3: 55:34

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work, friends, bye.