Jerks at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Jerks at Work with Dr. Tessa West

Jerks are everywhere…

The micromanager. The drama queen. The sly saboteur. Toxic coworkers come in all forms—and they’re not just annoying, they’re disruptive. Ever wondered how to handle that gaslighter or micromanager in your office? Well, we’re exploring these challenging workplace dynamics with Dr. Tessa West, a psychology professor at NYU and author of "Jerks at Work."

In this episode, Dr. West shares her journey from the high-end retail world to academia, offering practical advice and engaging anecdotes that illuminate the complex nature of dealing with difficult colleagues. We unpack how to deal with jerks at work without sacrificing your sanity, success, or standards. You'll walk away with actionable strategies to not only survive but thrive in your professional environment.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

Every jerk I've talked to, because I've been brought in by a lot of companies to do de-jerkifying coaching and most of these people are actually like lovely, and you're like I was expecting a monster and I'm just getting a sad person who is shocked.

Speaker 2: 0:15

The worst kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 0:28

Mel, what's going on? Hey, y'all have a heat wave.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Yeah, we have a heat wave. Yesterday we had an advisory for the air quality. Always a fun alert to get. Fantastic Remember when New York City, though, was in the wildfires last year, you know yeah, I happened to not be home during that time, but my husband sent me pictures. The sky was just completely orange over here, so it's just wild, ah fun with climate change.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Fun with climate change, yeah, good times, yeah. Well, speaking of New York City, we talked to someone from New York City, didn't we? We?

Speaker 2: 1:02

did, we did, we did. We spoke to Tessa West, who is a professor at NYU, and we wanted to get down on the topic of work, jerkery all the jerks at work.

Speaker 3: 1:18

Yeah, this is something that I'll tell you. One of the big themes coming out of a lot of our conversations and a lot of our work, especially on the pod, is how do I deal with these people at work that we will broadly categorize as jerks? The on the pod is how do I deal with these people at work that we will broadly categorize as jerks the gaslighters, the credit stealers, the micromanagers, all the jerks that we deal with. And so we called up Dr Tessa West. She is a professor of psychology at NYU. As Mel mentioned, she's also a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. Mel mentioned, she's also a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. She has written two books One she just dropped that's very cool called Job Therapy Finding Work that Works For you, and the other, mel. What is it? Jerks at Work, jerks at Work. Dr Tessa West has literally written the book about jerks at work, the type of jerks you meet. What do you do about them? What did you?

Speaker 2: 2:06

think about this episode, Mel. I really loved it because I think we've all been jerks at work. I don't think anyone's immune to being a jerk. I think it's on a spectrum, like we say, with a number of other things. But we've all been there. We've either been one or we've experienced it, or both. It's really insightful to think through what that looks like, how that shows up and how you can deal with it.

Speaker 3: 2:28

Loved everything that Tessa walked us through in terms of the types of jerks. What do you do about it? Stick around for the round Robin, because she absolutely gave the best one-liner for how you respond to someone being a jerk that I've ever heard in my life. I'm getting it embroidered on a pillow Awesome, yeah, it's awesome.

Speaker 2: 2:47

Well, with that, here's Tessa. Welcome, Tessa, to the your Work Friends podcast. Tell us your story. How did you get into what you do?

Speaker 1: 3:06

I'm a psychology professor at New York University and I study uncomfortable social interactions. So everything from feedback conversations with your boss to having an uncomfortable interaction in the doctor's office to working with an international group of people on a team and I've been doing this for 20 some odd years. I actually got started really studying this kind of topic of how we handle uncomfortable interactions and how they play out at work by working in retail myself and selling men's shoes at Nordstrom. I have an academic life but a non-academic path to get there, and I think if anyone's ever worked retail high-end retail in downtown Santa Barbara was where I worked. That is just the sort of perfect breeding ground for all difficult people jerks at work, status climbers, customer stealers, all that juicy stuff. I joined a lab at the same time at UC Santa Barbara. That did nothing but put people in these horrifically uncomfortable situations where you're interacting with someone who is giving you dirty looks while you give a speech on why you're a good friend. I was actually the person who gave the dirty looks.

Speaker 1: 4:15

That was my job, and so I learned academically how to study these things and study the physiology underlying people's stress they're under the skin responses while living it out in my own life working in retail, and eventually brought these worlds together to study these topics in the workplace. In the last maybe five to 10 years I've really focused on those really difficult moments we have at work, trying to figure out why we're stressed, why stress threads from one person to another and what we can do about it. And so now I have a good 30 some odd years experience uncovering all the difficult things people go through in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 4:51

One. Anyone who's been in retail myself included, also in shoes, I will add that is a very interesting experience. If you've been in any sort of customer service facing role, I'm sure you've had to have the most insane conversations. So I love that. I know, francesca, and I hear often from people am I a jerk at work one, and how do I deal with jerks at work? Which inspired us to reach out to you because we saw that you wrote a whole book on jerks at work and now job therapy. So in your study I love that you won. Your job was to give people dirty looks Interesting experience.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Sorry, but I'm thinking about. First of all, I know the exact Nordstrom you worked out is the one down in, like the city center of Santa Barbara. Really, yes, I can't imagine like that clientele selling shoes, selling men's shoes, especially when you're a pretty woman as well 18.

Speaker 1: 5:45

I didn't know what I was doing at all.

Speaker 3: 5:48

The dynamics there and the idea of. I love how this started, with this idea of like, awkward dynamics. I'm just wondering how much of that started with either you feeling awkward or you feeling like this person is awkward. Was it a mutual thing or is it more of like? Why do I feel awkward in this situation?

Speaker 1: 6:04

I think at first it was very much. Why do I feel awkward? I'm in my own head a lot and I think there's a lot to play around with there. One.

Speaker 1: 6:12

I grew up in Riverside, california, which is not a fancy place. My dad was a construction worker. I was not used to interacting with these rich Montecito men who would come in and say I need shoes for my gardener and buy like $600 shoes. So there were all there's a lot of status cues going on. So one thing I ended up studying later on was how we have cross status interactions with people who are richer or poor than us or more educated, and how we leak out our social class and all these subtle ways. So I think one of the reasons why I found those interactions so uncomfortable is because I grew up very blue collar and now I'm at UC Santa Barbara selling shoes to this like rich, white, older male population and I was asked to do all kinds of really weird things. I got down on the ground and pet someone's poodle and let it lick my face while I was putting shoes on and I just thought to myself I guess this is just what you do.

Speaker 3: 7:03

I'm okay. I'm okay, this is normal.

Speaker 1: 7:06

This isn't degrading at all. Totally fine. Totally fine, I'm going to make $60. It'll be totally worth it off the sale.

Speaker 1: 7:12

So I think a lot of that awkwardness lived in my head. It came from a lack of understanding norms, not getting the hidden curriculum of how one ought to behave in front of wealthy people. I didn't get that kind of training. And was I awkward? I'm sure I was, but I think most of us walk around with a lot of it living in our heads, more so than it actually becoming a dyadic or interpersonal phenomenon, and I definitely. For me, I try to turn lemons into lemonade and try to make a whole career out of all that really uncomfortable shoe sales experience I had. But yes, I think that the awkwardness is layered on with social cues and status issues and gender dynamics. I was the only woman in whole shoe sales, like in the men's shoes. They never let women sell men's shoes. They had a bro culture. I was brought in because I worked in the store in Riverside where I was also the only woman and convinced them that I could hack it with these bros.

Speaker 3: 8:09

So there's a lot going on, yeah, but what a great story, because I don't think you're obviously not alone in this and not alone in the awkwardness, not alone in the figuring out how to work with people and what those dynamics can do, especially in a work environment.

Speaker 2: 8:22

What was one of the most surprising things that you learned through all of your work.

Speaker 1: 8:27

Yeah, I think one finding that I kept seeing over and over again and I learned this by studying physiology and behavior at the same time is that when we're the most uncomfortable and we could see this in the lab because we measured people's blood pressure so you would get those readings live and measure their heart rate when you're the most uncomfortable, when you're the most stressed, you're the nicest readings live and measure their heart rate.

Speaker 1: 8:45

When you're the most uncomfortable, when you're the most stressed, you're the nicest, most over the top version of yourself, and my colleague, wendy Menez started calling this brittle smiles effect. So like you're so great, this kind of high pitched voice over the top smiling, and what's fascinating is because you're feeling stressed. At the same time, the anxiety still comes out, but in these kind of like weird creepy ways where you smile but not with your eyes right, so you don't have a douche and smile. We have a kind of lower half of you is smiling or you're fidgeting and avoiding eye contact, but saying the right thing and so if you're on the receiving end of one of these things.

Speaker 1: 9:17

It's like the words coming out of the person's mouth are nice, they're supportive, but it's all oozing out through these anxious cues. And what we started realizing is there's the controllable behaviors what we say and then the ones that are difficult to control how we say it and those two often misalign and that can lead to very difficult communication between people. And even talking to your jerk at work, you're probably really nice to that person if you were to go up to them. And we see this in all kinds of contexts and it's a pretty universal phenomenon, also cross-culturally. It's not just in America. I've seen it in Abu Dhabi with people from 50 countries. They do the same thing. I think that's one of our more consistent tried and true findings we found.

Speaker 3: 9:56

That's fascinating.

Speaker 2: 9:59

That's so interesting because I think one. I know I've done that when I've had to present somewhere like the over nicety to people in the room. Oh my God, but it's so interesting, Just the body language that people exude. You can't hide the body language.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Yeah, you can't control it. If you tell people okay, take a deep breath, don't look anxious, it makes it way worse. We tried that. We even tried telling people your partner's not anxious. They just had a ton of coffee today, so they're a little fidgety, they're like anxious coffee, oh my God. No, it actually makes it worse. And then they see even more anxiety than is actually there. It's really hard to get rid of this. It's a super sticky phenomenon.

Speaker 3: 10:37

It's very difficult to undo you just wrote Job Therapy, which we're super stoked about, and in the book you talk about some of the sources people have in terms of the frustration with work is actually due to some of those interpersonal relationships. When I think about people looking at a job pivot or they're unhappy in their career or they're thinking this isn't working for me anymore a lot of times people think it's because I'm not doing the right job or I'm not at the right company, not necessarily about the people you're surrounding yourself with.

Speaker 1: 11:30

I think relationships are everything at work, and I mean that in a lot of ways. So one of the main things that turns on or off our work happiness is our interpersonal relationships with people, and that doesn't just include your boss or the people on your team. That includes the people that you see day in and day out. I think that even if you're an individual contributor and I hear this a lot I'm an individual contributor. I don't need relationships. Of course you do, we all do. It doesn't matter what the nature of your work is. Those dynamics are at play and we know social networking is an important part of the work process, but we don't really understand how. So that's another component is, in addition to the one-on-one interactions you have, where you learn new information. You learn the hidden curriculum. You figure out whether your kiss-up kick-downer has a widespread problem or if it's just you.

Speaker 1: 12:11

All of those things, those kind of sticky interpersonal issues, can really turn our stress on and off. And when it comes to exploring new jobs, people often think about it very structurally I want something hybrid, or I want to work in this new city, or I need a better compensation package. They don't think about the relationship part so much, even though that's actually one of the biggest predictors of what leads us to actually drift apart psychologically from our jobs is the change in interpersonal dynamics at work. But we don't focus on that. We focus on how much we're getting paid or whether we can get promoted. But those things matter, but not as much as those interpersonal relationships, and those relationships are key to doing complex things like developing a new career identity.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Like you can't do that by reading websites or taking courses to improve this and that skill. You really have to sit down for 15 minutes and talk to a stranger and say tell me what your day-to-day looks like. That's really how you develop clarity around things, like a new identity at work, and so I really encourage people even shy people, even awkward people, even people who are individual contributors to really embrace the relational component at work in lots of different ways, and I don't mean you need to be best friends with anyone at work. You can think about relationships in different ways of serving these different purposes, but they're absolutely essential to feeling good at work and feeling good about yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:31

I've absolutely felt that right, especially when I've been in organizations for an extended period of time. Where you feel like you have the relationships, where you feel like you have the network, it's so much easier to get things done and, quite honestly, a lot of times, work is just so much more enjoyable. Yeah, but the thing we talk about a lot too in terms of career development or even getting promoted, is you have to have sponsors, you have to have a board of directors. People need to quote unquote know who you are. That doesn't just happen and that isn't typically just based on your great work. It has to deal with do people want to vouch for you? Do they like you? Do you have the relationship to your point?

Speaker 1: 14:06

Are they willing to expend social capital to?

Speaker 1: 14:09

stand up for you. You know we often don't think about how getting promoted, you know and I don't just mean like literally getting a new job title, but having someone in the room vouch for you is costly for them. You know, even if it's, even if you're good and everyone agrees you're wonderful, if they are going to put their neck out for you and argue that you should get promoted, that means that they can't do it for the next person. In academia, it's like every time the chair goes to the dean and asks for money for a person, that's one less person that they can then ask for the next time, because we have a zero-sum amount of stuff that we're working with and we have to think about. Are we earning these relationships that are helping us in the moment but also helping us build our careers out? And every recruiter, internal and external, that I talked to for this book said that they love developing relationships with people in different stages of their careers, because they will place the same person five times. It's like a real estate agent.

Speaker 1: 15:05

They will sell you a house five times over your life and it is essential for them to get to know you and know if you're going to actually stay in a job. Do they want to place you? Because they don't get a bonus if you don't stay for six months, and so they're going to place the person they know will stay because they stayed in the last thing they placed them in. And those kind of lifelong relationships are also essential for us just in terms of our whole kind of life career trajectory, and we often don't really think about those lifey relationships outside of our specific job context.

Speaker 3: 15:34

Yeah, and then you meet these people that have these massive networks of people and they're so much better off typically than people that don't. I see this a lot too. This is such a small microcosm of this, but when you see people get laid off and then all of a sudden they're starting their LinkedIn profile, or all of a sudden they're starting to reconnect back, and it's like you should have been doing this all along, or nurturing these relationships all along to have that network to fall back on, it's a very small example, but something we see all the time.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Oh yeah, like you don't maintain those relationships and you only turn to them when you're laid off or you blast your whole network one message Like please help me. Like without those interpersonal connections. It just feels like relationship spam and I think no one likes to feel like they're being spammed in any context, especially with someone they know Not at all my parents used to say like relationships are, it's like a garden, it's a reciprocal thing.

Speaker 3: 16:24

Right, you have to tend to them, you have to nurture them and you have to give to get. You can't have it be only when I need you. So nurturing those very strong relationships obviously huge, and also giving your data something that really makes meaningful careers. And then I'm wondering on the other side of it too, where what happens when those relationships turn out to be with people that are just dicks and I've had that experience too, where you're like you're a dick, you're a jerk. And I am curious about how not even neutral relationships, but adversarial, jerky relationships impact people's careers and what they think about their careers.

Speaker 1: 17:06

I think when we have these failed relationships, losses loom larger than gains and we can perseverate on a turned relationship. For years and years I've talked to people that were like I had a best friend and then he became my boss and then I overheard him talking about me in the bathroom and it killed me. I said when did that happen? 1987. I'm still thinking about it and that's normal. When we feel like someone betrays us, we really hang on to that and to the point where we maybe have a bit of a spotlight effect, where we think it's going to damage us more than it actually does and we start to get a little conspiratorial and thinking about how they can damage our networks and things like that.

Speaker 1: 17:46

One of the people I talk about in Jerks at Work is a gaslighter and they're like the masters of trying to damage your network. Right, they don't just go after you, they go after your reputation and by doing that they hit everyone. That's a node in your network. Most jerks we deal with have less power than we think they do. Even if they tell us they're full of power and full of status, a lot of it is more bark than bite, so you need to actually do the work to figure out if there's a real concern there about that reputational damage and then be proactive about not trash talking the person but just information gathering.

Speaker 1: 18:19

We often have this instinct of they're going out there saying bad things about me.

Speaker 1: 18:22

I'm going to go out there and correct that by saying bad things about them.

Speaker 1: 18:26

But stop and take a breath and think, ok, I'm just going to information gather and get the lay of the land of my own reputation so then I can correct it and not make it about them at all, even if the person deserves that kind of negative reputation.

Speaker 1: 18:39

You have to just be super careful with gossip because you just never know how it's going to be used in the future. And we all gossip and it serves an important purpose. But the retribution piece, the piece that the it inside of you really wants to go crazy, is where you just have to focus more on controlling the narrative around your own reputation, figuring out how white for the problem is, and then I'd say these relationships fail fast. If you are getting red flagged that this person is saying negative things or credit stealing or whatever, disengage as quickly as you can from that. We all have stories I have some of when I first started going too far into a relationship with someone who is weirdly competitive or had some other tick that just didn't align with me and letting that relationship stay for too long.

Speaker 1: 19:20

And I think that's where we get a little messed up at work. We think people need to be our best friends and sometimes you figure out they're not and just disengage. I think is key. But yeah, it can hurt. I still have my stories from 20 years ago I still think about so I think it's pretty normal.

Speaker 3: 19:35

I have a reoccurring dream about somebody and it's just like why won't this go away? I see your face.

Speaker 1: 19:44

I understand. I understand it's like an ex-boyfriend they got a weird breakup with and there was no closure, none.

Speaker 3: 19:51

Yeah, and I still. There's certain things. I can't listen to. A certain song You're just like oh, I am burned. You're like I can't. Nope, nope, nope, yeah, but taking away that power to your point around when you're in it, disengaging like you don't need to keep working at it. Disengage number one and number two.

Speaker 1: 20:17

Focus on your own PR and not bad-mouthing them, right, ie Taylor Swift trash-chakes itself out at some point, hopefully, or just be very strategic about the nature of the bad-mouthing. I'd say if you do go to HR, you want to bad-mouth, don't focus on your feelings about the nature of the bad mouthing. I'd say if you do go to HR, you want a bad mouth, don't focus on your feelings about the person or your kind of description of their personality. Focus on exactly what they've done. When I have conversations with leaders about difficult people, I'll say something like okay, I'm going to tell you what happened, and if I start to editorialize this a little bit, just let me know, because I don't mean to. And then followed by we had this meeting and this is what was said, leaving my emotions aside and I don't use words like they're untrustworthy or they're disrespectful. Those are very eye of the beholder and not everyone's going to agree with you about what those things look like. So I just described the behaviors and then it makes me look like a more mature person.

Speaker 2: 21:03

Stick to the facts. But all goes back to the golden rule right Is like focus on yourself.

Speaker 1: 21:13

Don't worry about others. I'm curious, why do people show up like this? I'm a firm believer that most people who are jerks don't actually know it, because it harms them a lot to not have solid networks and good reputations. I'm dealing with a jerk right now at work and we just got some feedback about the people who report to her and it's all pretty terrible and she's been here for a long time and I asked her closest colleague what's going on. He goes oh, no one tells her. No one's ever told this person what's going on and I said why not? Because she gets a little scary and defensive.

Speaker 1: 21:41

So it's like one sign that this is going to involve some conflict or a little bit of social finesse to maneuver around and everyone's like, no, thank you, they're not getting rewarded for giving her this feedback. They don't win. She's powerful. So they could actually lose social capital. And I think most of us walk into those conversations thinking I could lose a lot if this goes poorly. And what am I gaining really by being honest with this person?

Speaker 1: 22:04

And most feedback is delivered pretty poorly and it takes the form of what I just mentioned. It's things like you're not trustworthy or you're disrespectful and no one really knows what. Some of them are out to draw blood, but I think most of them aren't. They just aren't very socially perceptive either. They don't pick up on cues that maybe, like other people, are unhappy with them. Every jerk I've talked to because I've been brought in by a lot of companies to do de-jerkifying coaching and most of these people are actually like lovely and you're like I was expecting a monster and I'm just getting a sad person who is shocked the worst kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Yeah, we talk about that all the time how the feedback just doesn't happen. Renee Brown's clear as kind is for a good reason and real time, and not just those big words, as you mentioned, but like actionable things that they can truly address, like clear feedback that's actionable, not just feelings. What's the worst kind of jerk that you've seen in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 23:16

The one that causes the most psychological damage, I would say, is the gaslighter.

Speaker 1: 23:21

And that is a word that like took on its own. It had its own moment. It's very much in the zeitgeist, but those are people who are lying with the intent to deceive on a pretty big scale and they socially isolate their victims. And so a lot of the people who've been gaslit. It's been going on for a very long time. They've been cut off from their social networks and also it's not always in the form of an insult, or you're not good enough or you're going to feel a lot of it's fiery feedback.

Speaker 1: 23:48

You're a special person. I'm only bringing in one member from the team to know about the super secret mission that we're on together. Before you know it, you've stolen company secrets and general counsel's at your door, but you had no idea. You thought you were a part of a super special secret mission. So I think people have a complicated emotional reaction to being gaslit, partly because there's a guilt that they have done some unethical things, that they felt silly, that they were talked into, and then they have no idea what other people actually think of them and who they can trust to to get an understanding of their reputation and they feel very lost and many of them, because of that, have so much trauma that they don't trust anyone ever again in any workplace. So for these folks this is really a traumatic experience. I think it's fairly rare to run into a true gaslighter. It's different than someone who lies, but that is a very damaging one.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Yeah, I've experienced that before, francesca, you have too, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Do you think a gaslighter is like pathological?

Speaker 1: 24:47

Yeah, I think it's like access to personality disorder stuff. I think it's a lot of these are contextually based.

Speaker 1: 24:56

Jerks can be bred at work, but I feel like you have to have a special combination of some dark triad traits or whatever to really thrive, because and a lot of these gaslighters are quite good at their job- and they're very powerful and they're well-connected and they know how to frame up themselves to be protected from whatever they've asked you to do in aiding and abetting, and they usually walk out with pretty clean reputations at the end of the day and that's very frustrating for people. There's not like a sense of procedural justice.

Speaker 3: 25:29

One thing I've been having a hard time, and I am someone that is there's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women. That is my thing, and so it pains me to say this, because this is just my observation. What I have been trying to suss out, though, is most of the gaslighters I have met have been women, typically, I'd say 40 plus. I know there can be male gaslighters that are 18 years old like that, so that's fact right. What I've been trying to suss out, though, is how much of that type of behavior has been the world that they've grown up in and had to fight for and compete for in a male dominated world, yada, yada versus the pure pathology. And then where's the line where it's no, this is just who they are versus this is what they've been bred to?

Speaker 3: 26:10

do that's hard sometimes for me to suss out.

Speaker 1: 26:14

There's a lot of research on queen bee syndrome and things like that right, so you get these women in male dominated fields, and I'd also say that discrimination against women is there are no gender differences in who actually does it, and so people are like women shouldn't be discriminating against women. They do just as much as men do.

Speaker 1: 26:33

There are almost no documented kind of gender of the perceiver effects, meaning the person who does it. But when women do it, it stands out, it's much more salient and it also often takes more of a social aggression form, because the way women tend to be aggressive is much more sort of convoluted and social. And it starts when we're six years old and we learn these tactics of aggression through. Little boys hit each other, little girls gossip about each other, and there's a developmental trajectory of how we learn to be successfully aggressive that we can then take to work and the queen bees the women who've made it in these male-dominated fields. They have often suffered quite a lot. That they think earns them the right to then behave the same way. I have had a very similar experience where the people who I felt discriminated against me the most were more senior women who felt like they went through the gauntlet. It's now my turn and I need to just suck it up.

Speaker 1: 27:27

So there's a lot of kind of stereotypes about what one ought to do as a woman, when you're allowed to have babies, how you're supposed to behave and dress and no one's ever told me how to dress, except for other women showing up in job interviews. So I do think there's like a special dynamic that I think happens there with these women who have succeeded in these male dominated places.

Speaker 3: 27:47

Yeah, I like the term queen bee though, because I think that gives a nice frame for that, because it's hard Sometimes it's hard to assess. You talked about the gaslighter. In your book you write about other types of jerks at work and I'm wondering if you could give us a bit of this survey. What are the other types of jerks people meet at work?

Speaker 1: 28:05

My favorite is the kiss-up kick-downer, and this book is actually based on someone I worked with at Nordstrom's. This is why I love this person. They are very good at their job and they're super socially savvy, and so they're high on what we call status acuity. They can read the room. They can walk into a room and tell you who has status, who has respect and admiration and who doesn't. They can walk into a room and tell you who has status, who has respect and admiration and who doesn't. They can figure that out pretty quickly. So the boss tends to love them. They tend to be top performers, and if you are to complain that they are mistreating you so they kick down people at their level or beneath, you're going to get a lot of eye rolls and you're just jealous, and so they're very clever and savvy and Machiavellian and are able to get ahead through these kind of tricksy ways. They're very careful about who they gossip to and about, and they only do it in a very strategic way. And so if you have a workplace with a hierarchy which every workplace does these individuals tend to be very good at climbing up that hierarchy and then reading who has the status within that hierarchy. So that's my favorite.

Speaker 1: 29:04

I think some of the more straightforward ones are like the credit stealer who we are all probably pretty familiar with, and this person is also savvy. They tend to actually they don't just steal all their credit, they'll give you public credit for certain things so that when you then go complain it's much easier for them to say what am I talking about? I just gave them this whole speech publicly about all the hard work they've done. So credit stealers have a bulldozer type in my book as well. So this is a person who takes over meetings and agendas. They can usually work power structures behind the scenes, so you have a lot of things that end in an impasse and you're not quite sure why or what's happening, and these can all be team members.

Speaker 1: 29:43

And then I have two types of bosses. I have the micromanager, who I think most of us are familiar with, those insecure bosses that oversee all your work and they tend to do a lot but not get anything done. And then the neglectful boss, who, ironically, tends to also be a micromanager. So that's usually one person who oscillates between micromanagement and neglect. While they're micromanaging you, they're neglecting someone else, and so the neglect really gets operationalized as ignore, ignore, show up at the 11th hour, top-down control, change everything. Everyone freaks out, has a stress response and then they leave again for six months. So they go back and forth. So micromanager and neglectful boss are two people, but often one person.

Speaker 1: 30:27

And then the gaslighter who we just talked about.

Speaker 2: 30:37

I feel like I've encountered all of those in my career At the same time, sometimes all in one. I'm curious do you think every employee has been a jerk at work?

Speaker 1: 30:51

Yeah, if you've worked long enough, you are a jerk. We all have our own Achilles heel. We all have the worst version of ourselves that we can bring to work. And maybe that's a person who gets jealous and insecure and so it gets lashy outie. Or my son would say you're lashy outie. Or it's someone who feels like they need massive certainty and they're not getting it from their boss and so they hover over your Google page as you're working and they call you and you have to hide under your desk. I think we all have that version of us. When we get stressed and anxious, and some of us, that instinct is to try to overpower, to get that internal sense of control. Some of us disengage completely and become neglectful, and then some of us just have an inner instinct to be a little bit Machiavellian.

Speaker 1: 31:36

It's what we've seen, If you work in a law firm, anyone who's made partner probably is a little bit on that Machiavellian scale and thinks it's okay to kick down to climb ahead. And I think the key is just knowing what that ugliest version of you is on the inside so that you can then not make it go away but put steps in place structurally to prevent that person from coming out. But I do think we all have our inner jerk and that can be a different person at different stages of your career as well.

Speaker 1: 32:03

When you're more or less secure in a role versus completely overwhelmed, but plenty of security psychologically. But I'm a cynical person and I study the dark side of human nature and put people through really egregious social interactions to bring out the ugly version, because the nice version is not so interesting for me. But yes, I do think most of us have some inner jerk.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Yeah, I think it makes sense. Right, we're human beings, you show up that way. But I think, to your point, it's the self-awareness that's so critical, just knowing what that is what can come out. So how do you tame that, focusing on that? For employees, specifically, what are some of the ways that they can identify a jerk? Because, as you mentioned, there are covert jerks. They might not even realize that person's a jerk. And then there are some in your face jerks. One of my favorite things that you say is work jerkery, right, is this an environment full of work jerkery or not? Starting in the interview process, can they start to see that?

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yeah, I used to study first impressions. What can we get from the first 30 seconds? And actually thin slices of human behavior are actually pretty accurate predictors of the future. One thing is most work jerkery shows up a little bit ambiguous. In fact it is rare to say they're prejudiced. You don't you got to add up all these behavioral cues and then blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Work jerks are a little bit like that, where you're going to have maybe a gut instinct that there's an ambiguous situation that could go either way. The first thing I tell people is do not just trust your instincts, that you can magically read what's going on in someone's mind simply by looking at their nonverbal behavior. I've done a lot of research on interpersonal accuracy and what it really takes to know what someone's thinking or feeling, and there is no magical thing. You simply have to ask, and in the case of work jerks or in an interview, you need to ask around. You need to ask networks of people. I think if you're interviewing for a job, you want to ask at stage two or three of the interview to not just talk to the hiring manager or your boss but to talk to their team members and to talk to people who've cycled out of their team at some point. You want to gather as much information as you can by people who have what's called non-overlapping social information, so they're not always in the same room at the same time with the person. They've known them at different time points in that person's career. They've known them at different jobs or on different teams and look for the signal and the noise there.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Don't trust your instinct based on what they say or their nonverbal behavior or whatever. Base it on data that you can collect. We aren't great at information gathering in an interview stage because we want to impress so badly that we just try to put our best foot forward and say the right things. But once you get far enough in the process, you should feel confident enough to ask for other connections of people and people who know those people to gain that kind of like reputational map of the individual.

Speaker 1: 34:53

What you're looking for is like cross situational consistency across these 15 different interactions, across these 15 people. When they're stressed, they do X, when they're relaxed, they do Y. And you need as much data as you can get because any one person could have a weird experience, and so you're just looking for some consistent patterns of behavior. But really don't trust your instinct. I think that's where most of us go wrong is oh, I saw them give me side eye, or they looked bored. I think they're a jerk. No, none of that stuff is actually predictive. Gather information from the networks of people in the interviews.

Speaker 2: 35:23

Okay.

Speaker 3: 35:25

Yeah, all of us with a resting bitch face appreciate that answer.

Speaker 1: 35:28

Thank you, I have an RBF. There's a science behind the RBF, folks. If your upper lip turns down when your elastic mind does, that gives you RBF. That's the magical ingredient, and so do we want to assume that everyone with a downturned upper lip is a bitch?

Speaker 2: 35:42

No, we do not. I was in a meeting once and I had a leader IME as I was presenting like fix your face.

Speaker 1: 35:49

I'm like what? That's not cool, that is bad behavior.

Speaker 2: 35:53

Yeah, I'm like I don't even know what's wrong with my face. I can't see it so cool, not helpful, yeah. Okay, I'm curious psychologically because you even mentioned something earlier. Some folks might not even ever recover from the damage that this does to them. Like, what are the long-term psychological impacts on the individual, but even teams and organizations? What happens when there's a culture of, like, jerk culture?

Speaker 1: 36:22

Yeah, I think people learn what it takes to get ahead, and the smart ones will do it, and so jerk cultures, beget jerk cultures. If a place is a place where jerks can thrive, then they will hire and they will stay there and they won't ever cycle out because nobody wants to recruit them outside of that place. And this happens with a lot of high performing jerks. There's a reason why snakes in suits is a phenomenon that we actually talk about that you get high up enough you become a little bit of a psychopath. That's not true for every organization, but it's really hard to correct an organizational cultural reputation. That can take years, and you can even wipe everyone out of the organization that was a jerk and hire a new, and it will still take forever.

Speaker 1: 37:05

We know from the science of social network and reputation spread that removing those people with a negative reputation actually does very little to change what people think of the network as a whole. And if you can think of organizations that have had Title IX issues or Me Too issues, simply getting rid of those people isn't sufficient. And it's because people know that firing is easy, but actually promoting from within and proving that you don't breed that is hard and that takes years and years. And a lot of organizations went through this with me too. They just fired all those executives that sent those nasty text messages or sexually harassed women or whatever.

Speaker 1: 37:49

That seems like too easy of a solution to most people. They think, well, why did that person get away with it for 20 years? I don't care that you're firing them now. And there's a bit of a moral licensing effect that happens. Okay, now you feel like you got rid of them. Now you're going to really go crazy because you checked off the box right, like you're feeling good about yourself, morality wise. So I think there is damage that can last years and decades. And to the individual, they're just going to be super sensitive for looking for anything that is similar to their past, jerk and even incidental similarities that have nothing to do with it or are going to cue them up. I've talked to people who go to the same hairdresser. I can't trust that person.

Speaker 1: 38:23

Or they're wearing a similar jacket or they went to the same university or are trained by the same manager 20 years ago. Incidental similarities loom large for us and we often see correlation and inferred causation from that, and so people will start to get a little bit too triggery with those things and it can really hold them back right. Or they develop lay theories about why that person treated them in a certain way that are not ever really tested or explored. But we just have our theories and then we believe them and they're idiosyncratic and we stick to them, and I think that can really lead us astray as well.

Speaker 3: 38:57

What do you do? What do you do if you have that person? Let's take my example. I have a reoccurring dream about this dumb person. I know what do I do you?

Speaker 1: 39:04

don't have any closure in that relationship. Did it just end one? I have this with like exes. It just ended one day and you never saw them. You never did the exit interview where you said all the things or it's really hard to let go of these. Like the social psychologists would call this a goal incompletion.

Speaker 3: 39:39

You didn't complete the goal of ending the relationship, and so it's this kind of subtle, incomplete goal that you have, like never jumping off a high dive, and so you're just going to perseverate on it, or it's going to like sneak into your subconscious every once in a while, and that's true for all things that we don't complete.

Speaker 3: 39:46

Should you call them up? Who is this? I don't even know who this is. No, it's super fair. Super fair, I think, even just knowing, look, it's going to pop in. That's it. Let's just know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 39:51

I still dream about, like people from sixth grade that I feel like I didn't have like closure on, and that's normal. It's actually totally normal. It doesn't mean that this person is still haunting you in any meaningful way. It just means that there was something incomplete that you are not able to fully move on from because you just didn't finish the goal of ending that relationship in some kind of formalized way. And that's how most relationship ends. I think that's like just how relationships are. We don't usually have some kind of light switch that goes off where it's done. It's just like a lot of ambivalence, a lot of feelings that go up and down, and then eventually we move on. But what does move on me? I don't. Yeah, it means you're still dreaming about the person, but you're functional, so it's nice.

Speaker 3: 40:34

A thousand percent. I'm glad I'm not the only one, though, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Just write them a letter saying all the things you need to say and throw it into a fire and release it.

Speaker 1: 40:43

She's going to be dreaming about the fire and talk to the fire to get the letter back Will be a worse nightmare than it started as.

Speaker 2: 40:52

Okay, scratch that All right. So with say, you're in a new job, it's the first 90 days and you're like, oh shit, I thought I did my due diligence in the interview process. I talked to people but it is clear no one gave me the real story here. What can people do? What do you do to protect yourself if you start to identify work-jerkery happening?

Speaker 1: 41:19

I think, first off, a lot of people try to go at this alone. They think that the negative treatment happens in a vacuum. And I think I've done a lot of research on what it's like to be a newcomer at work and newcomer status and the newcomer hump, and knowing what that hump is will help you strategize of what to do next. The first thing is, when you're a newcomer and you experience this, you assume that everyone around you knows it's happening and they don't care. And so first you actually need to test that assumption. Probably people don't know what's happening because they're in their own world. There's not actually an awareness of what you're up to and how you're being treated by other people, even if it happens in a meeting. Most of us spend most of our time in meetings rehearsing what we want to say next, and we almost never pay attention to what other people are actually saying. So we can remember what we said and when we were interrupted. But if you were to say, hey, mel, did you interrupt your buddy Tom, or when was he interrupted? You'd be like I don't know. All I know is when I was interrupted. So I feel like we have these spotlight effects on ourselves, so you need to break that a little bit and actually break that assumption that everyone knows what's happening except for you.

Speaker 1: 42:26

There's also a lot about norms in the workplace and hidden norms and things like that you probably aren't aware of, and so the best thing to do to learn about norms of treatment of people at work is to take what's implicit and make it explicit and just explicitly ask about how people ought to be treated.

Speaker 1: 42:41

And that sounds silly and dumb, but there could be a culture of sarcasm here or a culture of treating each other a little roughly. That is just does not sit with you well and you need to know if you're being mistreated or if this is just a normative way people act around here. I remember in academia we make people go through this like terrible two day interview process and there's a job talk that's an hour long and in some microcultures you can interrupt every three seconds and that's a good sign. It shows engagement and others. If you interrupt every three seconds, that means you're done, that means they hated the talk, and so we often have these little microcultures at work that we assume are bigger and more industry-wide than they actually are, so people could be assuming that you understand a norm that you don't because it's weirder and more idiosyncratic than they even realize.

Speaker 1: 43:28

And this is even true for jargon at work. People assume everyone in an industry uses jargon. Jargon is team-based. The five people are using the same weird words. So you want to just test your assumptions around that If it is widespread and everyone agrees it's okay behavior and you don't like that, that's your red flag. You are not going to change the whole organization and get them to all behave differently. So those are like the two key pieces of this job is probably not going to work out for you.

Speaker 1: 43:53

Widespread and everyone's okay with it, not okay with it not widespread, then you have hope. Then you can proactively work with your network or your boss or whatever. But almost everyone assumes behavior is both more widespread and more acceptable than probably others realize and they're shocked when they hear about it and a little bit surprised. So test those assumptions before you jump ship and start something else. But it is pretty normal to think you're hired into one culture and show up and get something different. I'll say all that with one major exception being. A huge problem that came up during COVID and still happening is engagement issues. You thought this would be a really engaged workplace where everyone was on board and they were active and they were in, and then you show up and like literally no one is there. That is a really tough kind of cultural level of disengagement or neglect. That is hard to fix and I wouldn't try to take that particular issue on.

Speaker 2: 44:44

What if it's your boss in those first 90 days?

Speaker 1: 44:48

Yeah, you can talk to other team members to see how they're being treated. But my favorite lay of the land networking reality check tactic for bosses is you don't want to go to your boss's boss, you want to go up and over. You want to find people who know your boss, who are at the same level as them, and so they can give you insight into this treatment. No-transcript, I have all these kinds of like little tricksy rules based on marital therapy of how to do it. But before you're even there, you want to know oh, is this what all middle managers do, or is this just mine? Going two levels up is a little bit difficult, but up and over at their level in the network is useful to just get feedback from other bosses who have a similar role as yours.

Speaker 2: 46:00

I really like that because then you're comparing and you have data to compare it against, and it isn't just the assumption that your boss is the problem, so to speak. Not saying their behavior is great if it's common either.

Speaker 1: 46:13

But yeah, but you want to know. I think when people are like, how do I know if the jerk problem is too much, I, my first question is how widespread is it? How culturally normative is it? Are they hiding their behavior Cause they know it's bad, which is a good sign for you, because that means this organization doesn't actually like it. It's so scary to deal with, but that's a good sign that it's not just the whole well has been poisoned, it's just this one person. And is it OK to give any kind of feedback to bosses and some organizations? They have a very tight hierarchy and it's completely unacceptable to ever have a real conversation with your boss that is not just about your own career path and your own performance, but about theirs. So you want a place that actually does like bite-sized, normal conversation, organic feedback across all levels.

Speaker 2: 46:59

I know we're talking about like how leaders can manage this one-on-one with folks on their team. But what do they do if they see that the team is developing this culture of jerkery together? What can they do to address it without killing?

Speaker 1: 47:15

morale on the team or trust within the team. I think you know I teach this little program called the tricky situations, and it's just a bunch of these workplace dynamics and one of them is I actually give people an example of a situation like this where you think you know who the jerk is. Bob is constantly taking on the work of senior people. It seems like there's a free rider problem at work. Why is Bob doing everyone's work, even though he's the most junior person? How do you deal with this potential free ride problem? And half the people will come to me and say, oh, clearly these senior people are taking advantage of Bob and they're offloading work. And the other half will say, oh, I've had a lot of Bobs before. These are these go-getter junior people who steal the work of senior people in an effort to climb up, and they do this in a systematic way. And so we have our lay theories of who the actual jerk is in the situation. But we should probably test that out a little bit.

Speaker 1: 48:10

I don't love the idea of bringing people in one by one and interrogating them and asking them what's going on. I actually more like to keep track of the structure of things who's doing work and when Was this work you were assigned to do or not? Let's talk about the feedback interactions you're having and focus on the little behaviors and work together with everyone as a group. One-on-one meetings end up with conspiratorial thinking often, and sometimes you eventually have to get to that, especially if HR is involved. But you want to hear. You want your whole team to hear one message from you at the same time and not assuming that the jerk is the high status person or the low status person or you even know what's going on. So I'd say, like a lot of information gathering and put your stereotypes aside of what you think is happening before you do. But I do think that teams that there's a lot of structures and systems that we can put in place to prevent jerks and not allowing things like informal networking behind the scenes to pull levers of power good old boys club networking, things like that that used to work to get people's way and so far as we continue to reinforce that and we don't have real procedural justice around rules and decision making, I think we're in trouble.

Speaker 1: 49:15

And I'd also say for bosses and leaders, if you want to make a jerk free place and you want to prevent Machiavellianism and things like that on your teams. You need to lay out super clearly what the structure is for determining raises and promotions at your organization, down to things like certain bosses don't have the status and power to do it until they've been here for five years Really clear. And then I'd say the other thing is we need more failure pipeline data so that when we aren't promoted or when we're not succeeding, we're not bitter about it. We don't start to engage in kiss up, take down behavior to get ahead. We understand that it takes five times to get this promotion and we're only on time three or we know who our social comparison others are.

Speaker 1: 49:54

So there's procedural justice around decisions that don't often favor us, because what happens when people aren't getting ahead is that's when they turn to this jerk behavior to try to do whatever it takes. And transparency, I think, can move mountains with just explaining to people, even if they don't like the rules. If they understand them, they're less likely to turn to jerk behavior to get ahead, and that's usually where we see it actually to get their way to get ahead, to pull levers of power. That's where most people turn into jerks at work.

Speaker 2: 50:20

We can see that Francesca and I talk often about the power of transparency in the workplace, because you're removing the confusion for folks immediately and they don't have to fill in the blanks and suddenly they're in survival mode every single day because they don't know what the story is or they don't have clarity on the situation. So now it's just an unsafe environment. Do you think organizations are doing enough to address jerks at work?

Speaker 1: 50:45

No, they wait till the problem crops up and then they play whack-a-mole. There's not a lot of prevention. Think about this through the lens of healthcare. Right, we wait for the heart attack to happen and then it's time to lose weight. There's not a lot of prevention and early detection and conversations to see the early red flags, to see their warning signs, and I think that's just because most of us don't know, and often the early red flags are not what ends up being the problem later. Those early signs are not often perfectly aligned with what ends up getting you reported to HR. Anxiety and stress and feeling overwhelmed is often an early red flag of micromanagement. But that could be anything. So I don't think so. I think people talk about it a lot, but they don't do a lot to actually address the issue. One of the dark reasons why is because a lot of these jerks are high performers.

Speaker 3: 51:32

At the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 51:33

We are very much yoked to performance metrics and that if you have a board, they care about that. If you're publicly traded, that's what matters, Not nice people, not so-called soft skills. And so there's good reason for people to just say I don't care about all this stuff. I have to answer the board and if our numbers stay low, I don't care. That we have jerks, we can't afford this. Bring in the Machiavellian people who will bring our numbers back up. Sorry, that was a little bit dark.

Speaker 2: 52:00

We've seen it.

Speaker 3: 52:05

Yeah, I know, there's the whole Gary Veer chat. If your best-selling salesperson is a total asshole, go in and fire him tomorrow. No one's doing that, and you can absolutely do the long-term analysis of how much that is costing you by having someone be a jerk right Turnover and we know all the stats. But that's a long-term play and we live a quarter mile at a time in corporate America. Okay, all right, tessa, we do this with all our guests. It's called Rapid Round. They're quick, short answers. They're meant to be fun. Are you ready to play Tessa? Sure, okay, six questions, so no pressure. In your opinion, who's the biggest jerk of all time?

Speaker 1: 52:52

Donald Trump, is that basic?

Speaker 3: 52:56

Depends on who you talk to that guy. Oh, that guy.

Speaker 1: 53:02

Yeah, that guy. There's no redeeming qualities, there's just not.

Speaker 3: 53:07

I can't, I can't, I can't, can't, I can't, I can't believe I know, okay, yeah we're here again. We're here here we are here, we are, here, we are, and this is why I'm looking for eu citizenship. So, looking at property in italy, looking at property in spain, just in case shit hits the fan, there you go all right, I right, I have a Canadian husband.

Speaker 1: 53:27

I'm good, I'm covered.

Speaker 3: 53:30

Nice, excellent move, excellent. Toronto's looking really good these days. That's so funny.

Speaker 1: 53:38

What's the fastest way to identify a jerk in the workplace Ask around, just ask around. Don't trust your instincts. Gather data.

Speaker 3: 53:46

What's the best one-liner response to a jerk's rude comment?

Speaker 1: 53:50

When someone's rude to you and I wish I could go back and do this the last time someone did something awful to me that I just met I would say how many other people have you said that to?

Speaker 3: 53:59

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1: 54:04

That's great. It's a good zinger and it really gives you the power back and makes it look like you're just judging them for the behavior. But you're not internalizing it. Oh, that is the shit.

Speaker 3: 54:16

How many people have you said that? To Just give me goosebumps. I'm like, oh, that's good.

Speaker 1: 54:19

That's very good I love that. I love that For more mean girl advice, come to me yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:26

So awesome. What's the best way to get subtle revenge on a workplace jerk without getting caught?

Speaker 2: 54:31

Does that just make you the jerk?

Speaker 1: 54:33

Yeah, this is an easy one, guys. You make friends with building maintenance and you either make sure their trash never gets taken out again or you make their office incredibly hot or incredibly cold. Attack the creature comforts. Those are actually what stresses us out the most at work, and the best way to get someone to quit a job is to move their office somewhere uncomfortable or take away their parking spot. Whoa, I know how to get people to retire. That won't retire. It's parking spot and inconvenience office and a faraway bathroom that's in a weird spot or an office next to the bathroom.

Speaker 1: 55:10

Either too close or too far.

Speaker 3: 55:14

It's so simple and so brilliant. Yeah, what's your biggest pet peeve when it comes to workplace behavior? What's the one thing you're just like? Come on.

Speaker 1: 55:22

Trash talking on social media Slack or email, but will hide from you in person. I hate it when people do that. If you're gonna do it, just own it. Just do it to my face it takes a special kind of spinelessness to do that read about me and then, yeah, not, but work right next to me as you're tweeting about me I know a place that will uh mail that person poo.

Speaker 3: 55:47

I will send you that address. Just trope load if you need that. Okay, if you could give just one piece of advice to someone dealing with a difficult coworker, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 55:57

You are not alone. You're probably the 500th victim of this particular person, so don't feel like you're being isolated. Most jerks actually isolate people and make them feel very alone and that there's something wrong with them. You're not. You are probably the 500th person on the receiving end of this jerk. The best thing you can do is ask around and figure out how many. But I think that sort of feeling stupid and alone is the shame that comes along with being victimized by jerks. That we often don't talk about, especially if you're new at work and you feel like you're being bullied.

Speaker 1: 56:29

It's like back in school. Why am I being bullied? It's not about you, it's about them.

Speaker 3: 56:34

Yeah, it's nice to frame it that way, because you can honestly almost get a little bit more objective about the situation and what you can do to get yourself into a healthier place, if you know that's what this person is like and it's not about you place. If you know that's what this person is like and it's not about you. It's been so lovely to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, this is so fun you guys are awesome.

Speaker 1: 57:00

I love the vibe of this. I feel like I need a drink of prosecco or something in my weird cubicle right now.

Speaker 2: 57:06

Delicious. Next time, next time, come back.

Speaker 3: 57:14

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at friend@yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and, if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends and checkout yourworkfriends.com.

Speaker 2: 57:29

We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

The Workplace Psychological Safety Act

Your Work Friends Podcast: The Workplace Psychological Safety Act with Vicki Courtemanche and Deb Falzoi

Micromanagement. Gaslighting. Constant chaos. Abusive work environments aren’t always loud—but they’re always harmful. In this episode, we’re breaking down what workplace abuse really looks like (hint: it’s not just yelling) and how to name it, navigate it, and end it. Because everyone deserves to work where safety, respect, and sanity aren’t negotiable.

In the US, do you have a right to a safe, psychologically safe workplace? 

Because, right now, there is no legislation protecting employees from toxic work environments. None. 

Join us for an eye-opening discussion with Deb Falzoi and Vicki Courtemanche, founders of the End Workplace Abuse initiative. 

Listen or watch the full episode here

---

Speaker 1: 0:00

The basic idea behind it is that we don't have protections from psychological abuse at work. If this bill passes into law, people will be able to sue their employers and or their individual perpetrators, Because right now, people who suffer from mistreatment at work will go to an employment lawyer and the employment lawyer will simply say I'm sorry this is happening to you, but there's nothing under the law that will protect you in this.

Speaker 2: 0:41

What's going on Mel?

Speaker 3: 0:43

Not much. I went to a fun little estate sale this past weekend and I got like a 1950s black leather clutch that is awesome for $5. So you know win-win. That was good.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Nice. I love estate sales. I love that kind of find right, yeah, yeah, especially all the vintage stuff. It was so well-made, a lot of it.

Speaker 3: 1:07

This thing is solid. I'm like oh, I can throw out my target bag.

Speaker 2: 1:12

That thing's going to last you a lifetime, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:15

Truly, just get a little conditioner on there, it's all good, it's all good.

Speaker 2: 1:19

How about you? Well, enzo got walkie talkies. Yeah, this morning I was washing my face in my bathroom. He's in the living room, which is a couple rooms away, and all of a sudden I hear him having a conversation with somebody else who's not in the house. There's no one else, oh, and so, yeah, learned that his walkie-talkies can pick up other conversations and he can talk to people, so we are now getting rid of said walkie-talkies. That is freaky. I I don't like that at all.

Speaker 3: 1:44

You know it's like some, like trucker named Jim on his CB. What's this?

Speaker 2: 1:50

And I was like what that's us yeah?

Speaker 3: 1:55

Oh God. Anyway, walkie talkies are the best, though.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Well, we had a really rad conversation with two women that are doing some pretty powerful work.

Speaker 3: 2:04

a really rad conversation with two women that are doing some pretty powerful work, absolutely. We met with Deb Falzoi and Vicky Courtemanche, who are two fearless women leading the End Workplace Abuse Initiative across the US, and they are working to introduce the Workplace Psychological Safety Act in 20 states by 2025. And they recently presented this in Massachusetts and Rhode Islands. They're still working to get them passed in those states and they have moved on to several other states as well, so there's a lot in the works here. Ultimately, bottom line is they're looking to establish psychologically safe workplaces and getting this into legislation so that employees have rights to go after employers who don't establish psychologically safe workplaces.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Yeah, I think the big thing here is that legal recourse if psychological abuse is happening and we know this happens. We know things like bullying and mobbing and systemic sabotage happen all the time and right now, for the most part, employees do not have legal recourse if that happens.

Speaker 3: 3:12

No, they don't. And I think you and I spoke about this and I thought you brought up an excellent point, Francesca where this is the new sexual harassment effort. Right, because, as you mentioned, 20 years ago, someone could have said you have a nice ass in the workplace and if you complained, what would the response usually be? Oh, get a sense of humor. And that quickly went away with sexual harassment protections. This just takes our protections to the next level, where you can no longer just abuse people in the workplace and get away with it. There's actual recourse here for the employee and man do? They have a lot of great resources on their website for folks. Yeah, if you're an individual or a team leader or a leader of an organization, we highly recommend you check out their site. We're gonna link to everything in the show notes. They have a ton of resources out there. They're also extremely accessible, so you can email them and reach out to them for consultation. And with that, here is how to end. Well, friends, we're super excited to uh meet today with the co-founders and representatives for end workplace abuse. Uh, and that's deborah falzoy and vicky Kordamanch.

Speaker 3: 4:44

Debra started Dignity Together and she was really focused on helping workers who feel stuck in toxic work cultures and those who are healing from toxic work cultures, and really the goal is to help people take back their life, take back their power. Debra also has a podcast called Screw the Hierarchy and I did listen to a few episodes which I loved, and it highlights personal stories and the impacts of abuse in the workplace. Deb and Vicki co-founded the End Workplace Abuse Organization and they co-authored the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. End Workplace Abuse is an organization leading really a collective movement which is advocating for psychological safety at work. They are citizen lobbyists for protective legislation and policies. They're helping to build leaders who campaign for abuse-free workplaces and they offer coaching and playbooks to do this, which we love, and they're here to collaborate with organizations to help advance workers' rights. So welcome Debra and Vicki. How are you both doing today?

Speaker 1: 5:52

Good Thanks so much for having us.

Speaker 3: 5:55

Yes, thank you Absolutely. Thanks for being here. Tell us a little bit how did end workplace abuse begin?

Speaker 1: 6:04

We both have lived experience with workplace abuse. We've worked on other legislative campaigns and we really wanted to put forth the strongest piece of legislation we could, while also walking the talk around how we organize in terms of creating a really collaborative environment, building as many leaders as we can in this movement, to create a national movement, because there are so many people affected by this who wanted to do something about it, and so we started. We got busy writing the Workplace Psychological Safety Act set up a lot of foundational things like the website. Psychological Safety Act set up a lot of foundational things like the website, talking points, documents, policies, norms to make sure our own culture is healthy and safe for people.

Speaker 4: 6:54

I'll just go a little bit before that, because we both have lived experience around this and she had been bullied in the workplace 10 years before me. I saw her postings on social media and she was actually the first other person that I met who had experienced workplace abuse and I was very sick when I came out. I had a lot of health issues and I wasn't really able to do much of anything. But the work that she was doing really gave me a lot of hope and it was probably about four or five months deep that we finally did meet up in person and as I continued to get better, started doing little things that she would ask and she's always good about that, always making room for everybody to step in and have a voice in this or help in it we kept getting like deeper and deeper, help in it.

Speaker 3: 7:42

We kept getting like deeper and deeper and, as Deb eloquently already said, we found ourselves in this space that we could do it differently than what we saw out there. I love it. It starts with one step right. Coming together and collaboratively is a really powerful story. Tell us more about the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. What is the? I know there's a. The bill is a lot of language, but what is the if you had to explain it to someone like they're five? What does it encompass?

Speaker 1: 8:11

The basic idea behind it is that we don't have protections from psychological abuse at work, so at a baseline it gives people legal recourse for what we call a toxic work environment that a reasonable person would deem toxic. Right now, the major source of protections that people have are anti-discrimination law and, looking at the history of that law, the courts really moved from looking at impact to looking at intent years later and it really watered down the strength of that law so that if you feel like you're the subject of racist or sexist ageist, ableist, any type of behavior that's protected under that law, then you still have to prove the intent of the perpetrator, and that sets a really high bar In looking at the way mistreatment works at work. We wanted to focus on the behaviors that happen and enough of a baseline rather than looking at someone's having a bad day at the office. Enough of a baseline to deem it a toxic work environment by a reasonable person, and that would actually give more protections to for everyone, but especially for women and people of color, who are disproportionately harmed by mistreatment at work.

Speaker 1: 9:42

If this law passes, or this bill passes into law, people will be able to sue their employers and or their individual perpetrators, because right now, people who suffer from mistreatment at work will go to an employment lawyer and the employment lawyer will simply say I'm sorry, this is happening to you, but there's nothing under the law that will protect you in this.

Speaker 1: 10:03

There's nothing to sue against. So we want to put that in place because it is such a prevalent tool that employers use against employees, often for speaking up about this behavior, and that's a huge piece that Vicky brought into. It is what's not just this workplace bullying phenomenon. It's that the employers at their level are ignoring these situations or retaliating against people because they want to avoid liability. So that's this and that's really the level where a lot of people feel betrayed by. We really focused, honed in on that aspect of it, because there's nobody holding the employers accountable for holding the bullies accountable. That's a major piece of the playbook that we thought was missing from not just other pieces of legislation, but from the messaging that really resonates with people to build this movement.

Speaker 2: 11:03

We do have anti-discrimination, and then there's this act as well. Can you give an example of where the laws that are in place now aren't cutting it for people that are bullying? For example, if someone's getting bullied by their manager, is that not covered by anti-discrimination right now?

Speaker 1: 11:23

It isn't, unless the person can prove that the reason for their mistreatment is because they're a member of a protected class, because they're of a certain race or because they're a woman or that sort of thing. The best example I can really give is if a bully is bullying everyone equally, then when everyone's suffering from harm, then there's really distinguished about even somebody in a protected class, about the way that they're being mistreated. I've heard people say, if you're like an equal opportunity jerk, like there's no legal recourse for that because the target's not being singled out because of their membership in a protected class.

Speaker 2: 12:07

It's interesting because we see this a lot, especially sometimes at the executive level. People are a equal opportunity jerk and we get the well, that's just working with executives. That's just what this is. This is the type of behavior that they have and it's like no, this is actually not healthy at all and not constructive at all, and right now, there's no legal recourse for that.

Speaker 4: 12:28

Yeah, because the norm, like you said, it's what people have just accepted nowadays that that's how people are going to act at that level.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Yeah, and we really want to implicate. You know people go to HR to report these situations often, but HR also often gets bullied because by the people they're reporting to. So this is really often a directive from the very top down, usually a culture issue, that there is that discriminatory impact on people who aren't in power typically. Basically.

Speaker 4: 13:01

I'd just like to add to we were very intentional when we used the terminology psychological safety, because we were trying to go at it a different way, because passing the law is still not even our greatest obstacle. Raising public awareness is still our greatest obstacle. So when you say workplace bullying, no one knows what you mean by that. They don't know what you really mean by that. They conjure up whatever they want in their mind from their own experience, but they don't understand really that it's a process of dehumanization and it's a process of traumatization. So we were very intentional because, as I said, we have the two bars. We're trying to pass law, but we're also trying to raise public awareness and that still is almost in the forefront. But when we use the term psychological abuse and psychological safety, that has resonated with people. Now everyone knows what we're talking about. Everyone understands what that is. It's taken off.

Speaker 3: 14:03

That's a great segue into my next question. Vicki, on the website I noticed you talk about an abuser playbook. What does it look like?

Speaker 1: 14:13

I think too, in terms of the playbook, what we're seeing is a lot of high performers affected by this. They pose a threat to someone in power who wants to reinforce their own power and control. Performer is weakened is very typical tactics for abuse, like false accusations, sabotage, verbal abuse. We see outright lies in performance reviews. We see withholding information from people, overloading unreasonably heavy workloads all sorts of different tactics that are designed by people in power because that power differential is so important to weaken their target, to dim their flame, basically. And so when the person starts to catch on and starts to feel devalued, a lot of times they internalize what's happening to them and so they end up subscribing to the narrative until they really catch on that these things are happening. They start to notice that they're feeling so devalued and demeaned all the time, and then when they finally go to report it to a higher up or HR, depending on who the perpetrator is if they go to their own boss or if the perpetrator is their boss that's when that sort of second level of betrayal can kick in and they realize the process just gets dragged out. You think that the company is going to care that there's some form of mistreatment happening and that it's in the way of their bottom line. But really oftentimes we see investigations never happening or they're inadequate investigations and then people try legal recourse and realize that the whole society isn't on their side because there's no law against this behavior which basically tells them the harm done to them is okay. It just adds layer upon layer of betrayal. It can be really hard. A lot of these ways of harming people can be done behind closed doors. It can be done through gossip and sabotage that people don't have any ideas happening until months, weeks or months later. So it can be really hard to see.

Speaker 1: 16:35

A lot of times, just sensing that the perpetrator has these power and control issues and that they're trying to reinforce that at every turn, instead of what I think of as a healthy relationship with a boss is like trying to flatten that hierarchy as much as possible and being a support and trying to figure out what their subordinates need.

Speaker 1: 17:03

There is that heavy layer of power and control with this. So I think when people start to see that for what it is and realize I know in my situation, when I saw that happening, my response was internalizing it and thinking well, I have to try harder then. And that really was the opposite of what going to help me, because that threatened the bully more. The abuse ramped up and had I been able to catch it more quickly, I think I would have been able to detach from it more easily and just say, okay, may have still gone to HR, may have still gone to the head doing the right thing, but the typical response is avoiding liability. That education piece is huge as to what is likely to happen, given the power structures and the system that the people in power have designed to maintain their own power.

Speaker 3: 18:35

So how can employees, or even employers, recognize that abuse is happening in the workplace? What do they need to look out for?

Speaker 1: 18:43

So when we just define even just basic psychological abuse, we're talking about a violation of an employee's inherent basic right to dignity. So this is severe or pervasive infliction of toxic or unethical words and or actions, whether they're intentional or unintentional, direct or indirect. These can also be omissions. They're directed in terms of creating the toxic work environment Bullying we call it employee to employee interpersonal abuse.

Speaker 4: 19:15

As Deb said, that was a big part of what we went after in the playbook and in the legislation was holding the employer accountable, and we use the word mobbing and what we mean by that is organizational bullying, so it's more the employer, it's representative employees to the employee. I've since learned, thanks to Jen Fraser who wrote the Bully Brain, another word and I use it more often now, and it's institutional complicity. That's good. Now that is clearer than mobbing. So we're learning as we go and I'm trying to use that terminology.

Speaker 1: 19:57

And then we see sabotage as a type of bullying. There's all sorts of different ways to even define bullying, but also to categorize types of bullying. But sabotage we've bucketed into things that are types of exclusion, so things like excluded from meetings and conversations that you should be involved with. This could be timely access to resources, information that you need to do your job, assignment of work. We've seen situations where people are not given information that they need to do work they've been assigned to, and then they get reprimanded for not completing the work, so they're basically being set up to fail. Unfairness falls into this. We talk about gaslighting, which is where the narrative gets twisted, so you believe you were made to be the problem. I'll call this crazy making too, where this can be micromanaging and inconsistent complying with rules. It could be a demotion or threatening of job loss without any cause. Inaccurate performance reviews that's a big one, especially when new management comes in and they want to hire their own people. They'll just start a paper trail, but it won't be accurate in order to push out the employee. It could be discounting work, taking credit for work, blocking requests for needed training or leave, increasing responsibilities without giving authority to complete the responsibilities, removing responsibilities with no explanation, unreasonably heavy workloads, underwork, consistently to the point where somebody feels useless, so they're not doing what they were promised would be they would be doing in that role. Unrealistic deadlines We've heard a lot of stories about people essentially like being set up to fail where they're given these ridiculously unrealistic deadlines that they can't meet. Favoritism is involved with this, where a lot of people have this separate set of rules because they're not in the in crowd. Vague reviews, accusations without any backup. We've heard of people having their equipment tampered with, their personal belongings tampered with, and then the last part of this is lack of clarity. So it can be really vague directions, deception around work, expectations, deadlines, reprimands without any ways to improve. Again, this isn't a bad day at the office. This is like the norm of how expectations are set and sort of thing. Like vicky said too.

Speaker 1: 22:46

When it comes to the bullying and the mobbing, the, a lot of people talk about mobbing as like group bullying essentially, and that can be part of the playbook too, where it starts with one-on-one person in power, person, a lesser role, and then that person in power creates this false narrative behind the scenes and gets other people to join into that false narrative, then a lot of times people side with that power out of fear of losing their own job.

Speaker 1: 23:19

And then, gradually too, the target can just feel so isolated, have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, but they're characterized in a way that they have no idea about and it's completely opposite of how they feel, believe that they're performing, or at least were performing, and then that's when that mobbing piece, as we're defining it with the institutional complicity it often escalates to that, because people feel trapped. They have no idea what to do, where to go, who will help them. And so when HR is training on anti-discrimination law and encouraging reports of mistreatment, they believe that going to HR will be the solution. But oftentimes HR will just be looking to see if there's any sort of valid complaint, if there's a legal liability, and they'll do some sort of risk assessment and decide should we just push this person out and avoid the liability? How much of a risk does this person pose?

Speaker 2: 24:23

Which is one of the reasons why you need a law like this right, because HR is going to go to the law, they're going to go to A what is legal, and then what's the liability for the organization, which is why you need this as a law, because if it's not, it's very gray. It can be very gray for HR. I have a question, though, about the bobbing piece, which is does it have to be, or even the bullying, or even the sabotage, does it have to be somebody in power?

Speaker 1: 24:50

Because I've seen this peer to peer, I've seen this as team members doing it to their leader. It can be lateral bullying and it can be upward bullying too. I think the most common is that downward bullying, but it can happen from any direction. I've heard of situations in all of those ways and to your point earlier too, I was going to say we have heard HR people say we need a tool, a law, to be able to hold these bullies accountable. So I think it will benefit HR to have this tool to actually do something about the bullying.

Speaker 4: 25:33

Their profession has really been called out this phenomenon, because the statistics say that at least 71% of our businesses don't do the right thing when this happens. So there's a lot of people out there who are either uncomfortable doing what they're told to do or there's lots of people out there who have left HR because they won't do that. It's sad because they're the flying monkeys of this. They're the ones who come out and make it happen. We pull back the layer even further than HR. We point to the legal department, whoever that legal head is. They are and this is funny, francesca, because you're saying they want a law, but really what they're doing is skirting the law by doing this. I've talked about this even if this law is passed, it's going to be like whack-a-mole with them, like they're going to pop up and try to do something else, because that's the way the legal departments function. Culture and operationalize HR will need to fundamentally shift.

Speaker 2: 26:45

There's so much culture change that will need to happen in organizations for organizations to be healthy enough for not having this happen. And I think back to like when anti-sexual harassment rolled out. I mean, sitting in our seats right now. No way in hell would you ever think that telling your administrative assistant that they have a nice ass is okay. That was okay 20 years ago, quite honestly. And now it's not. And we're still in this realm right now with bullying, with sabotage, with mobbingbing, where this stuff is still culturally, in a lot of places, tolerated. Okay, organizations are complicit.

Speaker 1: 27:25

I'm excited by this and then I also think it is a massive sea change, very similar to what sexual harassment was yeah, in fact, we try to model the bill on sexual harassment law, saying that like it's the work environment, like that hostile they're. They call it a hostile work environment, we're calling it toxic. It's the baseline and people don't need to prove psychological injury. But yeah, it is. It is going to be gradually this huge shift for employers and their work cultures.

Speaker 2: 27:59

I'm curious about with what you both are working on. Obviously you've done a tremendous amount to push this forward. What are some of the priority hot button issues that you're working on within the next three months? What's hot for you right now?

Speaker 1: 28:16

I mean, one of the biggest things is a Rhode Island the bill in Rhode Island. So we have two active bills, one in Massachusetts and one in Rhode Island, and we have just a couple more months in the session in Rhode Island. It just passed the Senate Labor Committee, it's on to a vote in the Senate floor, it'll move to the House Labor Committee and we're mobilizing people getting the message out there to take action, to write the house labor committee. So that's our biggest priority. We're still in the early days of even having formed our national teams and our teams of bill directors. We have about 20 new states that are working on getting legislation introduced in 2025. We're going to do another training to get more people on board. It's super energizing. Just the educational piece alone of this is huge and just the creativity coming out, the connections and coalition building people are doing.

Speaker 4: 29:19

If this passes in Rhode Island, this would be our first win of a law. We just have to have that under our belt. I can't tell you how many other legislators we've watched hearings around the country, and the first thing that the chairs ask is has this passed anyplace else? So we can't wait to say yes.

Speaker 1: 30:00

I want to ask, not if but when this gets passed in Rhode Island and when momentum picks up, what will employees be able to do? The big thing is to sue their employer for mistreatment that meets that baseline standard. Right now they don't have the ability to do that. It's not going to be this wave of the magic wand, like we've seen. Obviously, sexual harassment is still really prevalent, despite there being a lot against it. But the other piece is this is really about prevention. So the bill actually has a lot of language around what the employer can do to minimize their own liability from training and having a policy, which we know doesn't work in and of itself, but that as a start, in terms of trying to prevent this behavior, to having thorough investigations and then, when they do find that there was bullying happening, coaching, counseling, discipline. We want there to be an adequate addressing of this issue from start to finish, from educating and monitoring the work environment to actually holding bullies accountable.

Speaker 3: 31:04

You talk a lot about what organizations can do in terms of prevention, but what can team leaders do today? What can just teammates do today to help with that prevention in the workplace or be advocates for others if they're not the victim of it, but see it happening? What can they be doing?

Speaker 1: 31:24

It's a really tough situation for bystanders to be in because pretty much stuck between siding with the abuser and siding with the target, and if that abuser is their boss, then putting themselves in a situation to have to be the next target. Basically, we encourage people to speak out, but we know that there's risk, a lot of risk, in doing that. So I think even just telling the target, even private I saw this happen to you. I like to validate it for them and knowledge that they were harmed and that they're a human being and harm wasn't okay To just be there for set goals, help people understand that the vision and mission and the goals of their unit, even if there's a lot of toxic behavior coming down from the top.

Speaker 1: 32:33

What's a tough position for a manager to be in dealing with that and trying to change the culture of their own department. But I think that's the power that they have. How do you treat people as workers, as though they're adults and that they can control their jobs and that they have social support? And I think everything that we're supporting, including the Workplace Psychological Safety Act, just all goes back to that, in that if managers treat their subordinates like people, then not only will they be healthier, but their bottom lines will actually increase. I think the bottom line is just bringing the humanity back to the workplace, or to the workplace in the first place.

Speaker 3: 33:21

This has been just really wonderful and appreciate all of the tips and insights.

Speaker 4: 33:27

I just want to say thank you for this space because this is raising public awareness. So every time that this gets put out there on a podcast, or someone reposts the social media or wants to submit written testimony, it all counts.

Speaker 1: 33:44

One of the biggest parts of this work is that we're giving people hope who are otherwise feeling so trapped in what they're experiencing. It's important for people to know there is hope out there. We're both living proof that there is happiness on the other side of all of this and, with support and taking their own voices back, they can get there too, and collectively, no matter what happens. If we're speaking out together, then we're taking a stand for ourselves, and I think that's huge.

Speaker 3: 34:18

Love it Well. Thank you both so much for being here with us today. Appreciate you, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Trauma-Informed Leadership

Your Work Friends Podcast: Trauma-Informed Leadership with Deborah Lee

Safety builds trust…

And leaders shape the spaces we work in. In an era where employee wellbeing is paramount, leaders are increasingly recognizing the need for more compassionate and psychologically safe work environments. 

But what if I told you that over 80% of people globally have experienced some form of trauma? This statistic, underscores the urgent need for trauma-informed leadership in our workplaces. With guest expert Deborah Lee, we unpack what trauma-informed leadership means, why it matters, and how to lead in a way that heals—not harms.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone building trust, culture, or change, and for any leader wanting to create healthy workplaces.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

Statistics show that over 80% of people have been through some kind of trauma globally, so none of us will ever be able to really escape trauma. Once you've lived a life, you've gone through trauma, and that informs how we perform at work. It informs how we show up at work and even as a leader, it informs how you lead.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Hi friends, hey Mel, hey Debra, what's going on?

Speaker 1: 0:39

I'm having the time of my life talking to the both of you right now, so really excited. We get that a lot. We get that a lot.

Speaker 2: 0:44

We get that a lot Same Listener friends.

Speaker 3: 0:48

with us today is Deborah Lee. She is the founder of Creature A and they specialize in creating mindful and trauma-informed workplaces, and we are super excited to learn from Deborah today all about embodied leadership and trauma-informed workplace leadership. So, debra, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that lovely introduction, mel. I'm really excited to be talking with the both of you today, happy to share in any way that I can.

Speaker 3: 1:18

Let's dive right in. We would love to hear a little more about your personal journey here. How did you get into trauma-informed care and a focus on embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 1:28

Yeah, just to share my personal journey. I walked out of an abusive relationship in 2021. And when I went to the various institutions that you would normally expect to get support and help like law enforcement, hospital, even church institutions I just found that people weren't really understanding the gravity of the situation or dealing with it with the urgency that was required, and oftentimes I felt like there were real gaps that were met and issues around like justice and support and people were really understanding what was at stake. And even then, the main people that I got help from ultimately were people who had a lot of experience in the area of trauma, for example, a social worker who has witnessed a lot of these sorts of cases of domestic violence, and she could actually break down to me what were some of the processes involved. And then, when I understood a lot of these dynamics were about power and about control. That's when my eyes were open and I was able to have a really clearer picture of how to move forward with my life. And then, in the process of it, I could use that lens, understand why people relate it to other people a certain way, for example in a conversation, why people might just, for example, not even address the questions that's raised or move on to another subject or be dismissive or use jokes or sarcasm to deflect, and I did a lot of research around emotional abuse. I did a lot of research around trauma and one of the books that really changed my life was the book the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, who is a psychiatrist who has been on the forefront of trauma for over 30 years. He's treated all sorts of patients with any number of mental health issues, from bipolar disorder to borderline personality disorder and major depressive episodes, and one of the things that really left a very deep impression on me is that a lot of the common core roots of all of these mental health disorders is the fact that all of them have what you call complex post-traumatic stress disorder. So this is a bit different from the classic PTSD, as you know, like maybe you get into an accident and then you lose a limb and then your life is forever changed.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Cptsd is something that arises within relationship and in these relationships where there's an imbalance of power, there's often abuse or emotional neglect, often abuse or emotional neglect. And a lot of this starts in your early childhood and it's shaped by your caregivers and how you relate to them, the coping mechanisms you developed as a child to be able to survive in an environment that maybe was abusive or was emotionally neglectful, and this has an impact on how you relate to others in life and your attachment styles later on as an adult, and even the choices that you make. Neuroscience has shown that it actually has a real and felt impact on your brain functioning, so you can think about how that affects the prefrontal cortex, how a person makes decisions and even things like who they get attached to, how they find a life partner, for example, and so reading this book really helped me understand myself, my own life trajectory, and it also helped me understand what it means to be cut off from a sense of embodied living, what it means to be cut off from the messages that your body is signaling to you, because it's so easy to intellectualize and just live up here. When, as a child, you were filled with anxiety and anguish right in an environment that was unstable or chaotic and nobody was there to address it for you, nobody was there to help you make sense of it. So you learn to cut it off, and this is what Bessel van der Kolk talks about in his book. They get.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Survivors of complex post-traumatic stress disorder get so used to these unremitting signals of anxiety and distress from a very young age, and because they don't have any other option, they can't pick and choose their caregivers or pluck themselves out of an environment that is destructive or filled with chaos and abuse. They don't get that choice right. So what they have to do at the end of the day is learn to dissociate, and so you develop those coping mechanisms, and it's very helpful for when you're a kid and you just need to survive. But as an adult it could mean that you become like dismissive, cut off, not in touch with your, your feelings, emotionally tone, deaf to yourself, and even in your relationships at work or even within intimate relationships, you develop trauma based responses and you might be familiar with fight, flight, freeze, and then there's also fawn right, that's another one, and then the two that are like more emergent, discovered by the National Institute for Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine. Expounds upon is Attached, cry for Help, and then the final one is Collapse and Submit. So a lot of these ways that people behave.

Speaker 1: 6:41

If you really trace it back over time and look at their trauma map, it's rooted a lot in unresolved things that happened in the past, and the key thing to note is that, even though you may have gone through a lot of abuse when you're a kid, you could still be very high functioning, you could still really perform in life.

Speaker 1: 7:01

But what might happen to you at one point is that something happens there are a few things that could happen to you, something life-changing or you have a trigger and then suddenly you start to unravel, and then that's when people are forced in many ways to confront their own trauma, to confront their own unresolved issues from the past.

Speaker 1: 7:21

And so that brought me to a space of wanting to. First of all, my experience as an abuse survivor and going through the various institutions and seeing the gaps there. That's what got me asking questions. And then, when I understood the mind-body connection, when I read the Body Keeps the Score, is when I really realized, hey, this is a very valuable roadmap for others to have, not just to support other people, but even to understand their own selves, because I think the tendency for a lot of people is just to end up finding fault with themselves and like blaming themselves and beating themselves up, which you know it's not very helpful, and, at the end of the day, until you can extend a kindness to yourself, it's actually very hard to extend that same kindness to other people in a meaningful way.

Speaker 3: 8:07

Yeah, I'm really sorry that you experienced something like that. What inspired you, I guess, to take what you learned about yourself and that understanding and bring that into the workplace?

Speaker 1: 8:22

I think once you go through something like that, you can't unsee it, Things through a very different lens, and then you understand power dynamics. In a way there's a before and after, when you are in a position where you have been traumatized by an intimate partner, and then you see how the systems reinforce injustice around it and how the truth gets completely obfuscated at times. You realize once you see, you see it I started to see things in a way that maybe a lot of people miss. And then you see this playing out at workplaces and then you understand whoa hostile and you would not expect that, even in a corporate setting. And I just realized that whatever you're not dealing with in your personal life, it will spill out into your work life. As much as you might try to like put your mask up, it finds its way to seep out.

Speaker 1: 9:13

And I realized that, at the end of the day, what people seek at work is still human connection, and that is what creates more productive workplaces. I hesitate to use that word productive, because I don't want people to just focus on that as the bottom line. But at the end of the day, like when there's a culture of collaboration, when there's a culture of trust and safety, psychological safety, and when people are able to feel free to bring their whole selves to work. Once those foundations are set in place, it actually creates a much, much healthier workplace where people actually look forward to going to work, because you're not going to work to be a machine. You're going to work because you want to feel a sense of meaning, enjoyment in what you do and connection with other people on your team, and so a trauma-informed workplace will equip you to be able to have those key fundamentals and to be able to connect with your co-workers in a way that's meaningful and enjoyable.

Speaker 3: 10:10

Yeah, we talk about that all the time.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I feel like we have this really old archetype of power because, to your point, a lot of abusive relationships.

Speaker 2: 10:18

The dynamic is about power and the way we leverage power, the way we embody power at work, the archetype of the leader as control and command, and I know obviously we have a lot more definitions of leadership now. I get that. But the way organizations are structured, the ways of working around organizations and, quite honestly, even what we promote in organizations around people that come across as confident, strong, by any means necessarily like those things still are incented. And so it's an interesting discussion on power, because I feel like there's still very much an old archetype of power living, breathing foundationally in corporate America. It's evolving. It's not every place, I get it, but it's still pretty old school.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Yeah, I think it's hard to run away from that. I think in all human relations, even if you look at animals, there's always some kind of hierarchy. You look at apes, chimpanzees, you see how the hierarchy it's almost intrinsic. My company is called Creature Ray, by the way. I named it Creature Ray because I wanted to capture the nuances around how people are.

Speaker 1: 11:25

We're social animals and in some ways conditioned to behave like that. It's like survival of the fittest. But then also the social element means that as humans, as a more highly evolved species, we look for something more than just that kind of old school power structure that animals have. We look for connection, we look for authenticity, we look for meaning and purpose, and that's what differentiates us from a chip right, a chip just interested only in where its next meal is coming from or who it's going to mate with. But as human beings there's something deeper than that, and I think that's where we're talking about a trauma-informed workplace where we understand that we're not just here to work, but we're also here because we're seeking ways of relating to each other. That is effective for the work, but it also is meaningful for us as human beings.

Speaker 3: 12:17

Yeah, how did your experiences really shape your understanding of leadership in the workplace, the power dynamics that we're going through, what made you focus in the leadership space specifically when I started doing?

Speaker 1: 12:32

a lot of research around abuses, around organizational culture, around workplace bullying, around just even gaslighting and psychopathic behavior. That's when I realized, hey, hey, there needs to be. Number one a very clear understanding of trauma, what it is, trauma-informed care, as well as like policies and guidelines as to how to support people. Number one we've been through that within the workplace, because statistics show that over 80 percent of people have been through some kind of trauma globally. So none of us will ever be able to really escape trauma.

Speaker 1: 13:06

Once you've lived a life, you've gone through trauma. And that informs how we perform at work. It informs how we show up at work and even as a leader, it informs how you lead. So if you went through all these things yourself and you're like I earned my stripes this way and you never work through how, in some ways, it shaped and maybe even traumatized you, then you're going to be like I'm going to inflict that on other people. You may not consciously think that, but that's what you're going to act out right until and until and unless you work through your own stuff or you gain the awareness around what trauma informed care is, what trauma is, maybe drawn out your own trauma map and understand the mind-body connection. Practice good self-care. It's really hard for you to show up as a leader. That is not course, especially if that's how you were groomed into becoming a leader.

Speaker 3: 14:00

Yeah, I am a huge proponent of therapy. Therapy is good for everyone, especially when you hear statistics like 80% of people globally have experienced some level of trauma and there's always. I know this seems like a cliche quote that gets passed around all the time, but it's like being aware of everyone's going through something. But there's real impact there, because I think to your point. When you're in psychologically unsafe environments in the workplace, you're consistently being re-traumatized.

Speaker 1: 14:28

And the real danger is not being able to identify it.

Speaker 3: 14:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Like when you're so stuck in it it's hard for you to even see it, and then you might even start blaming yourself or internalizing it. One of the key ways that even in the legal profession right like how they train a lot of these young, bright-eyed lawyers is inculcate into them a sense of you're never good enough. But they don't tell you that straight out, but they set the bar like here, and then when you reach it for it, it's a sense that keeps getting reinforced and then it's almost like brainwashing.

Speaker 3: 14:58

The goalposts constantly move and then they're always questioning their abilities. Like you see that in so many different work environments, and it's almost like an emotional abuse that happens over and over. We hear it often, francesca, you and I just covered some headlines recently where it was talking about there's that right to disconnect law that's been passed in some global locations, but the US is considering it, or they're at least watching it very closely, because people have said it's like a badge of honor to be in burnout to get to where they are, but it's those environments that continue to perpetuate this. You're not good enough. You need to work harder. You need to work 80-hour weeks to succeed.

Speaker 2: 15:42

It's just not sustainable, and we're seeing it with the well-being numbers. We've been following well-being numbers for a while. Well-being just keeps dropping and dropping and dropping. There's a lot of factors to that. But to your very good point, debra, if you have leaders that don't understand how to not re-traumatize people constantly, it's not going to get any better. There's no safety net.

Speaker 1: 16:05

And how do they not re-traumatize people unless they themselves, on some level, have worked through their own trauma?

Speaker 3: 16:08

yeah, yeah gotta do the work can you explain what embodied leadership means in simple terms? Explain it to us like we're five. What are the characteristics of an embodied leader?

Speaker 1: 16:31

So basically an embodied leader is somebody who is aware of the mind-body connection and has done the work and gotten the psychoeducation around that, who takes care of himself and shows up at work with presence and authenticity. I don't know if that's simple enough for a five-year-old maybe a very smart five-year-old.

Speaker 3: 16:55

It's one of my favorite subreddits. Explained to me like I'm five, I just think, okay, if you can do that, it's a great way to say it. That was great.

Speaker 1: 17:03

I really highly recommend, if you're a leader, to do the work, because you're going to have so much impact on the team, the teams that you lead, the clients that you meet and just everybody that comes into your sphere.

Speaker 2: 17:16

There's a statistic that the person that has the most impact on your mental health is most likely not your spouse. It's your manager.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yes, yes, and I have seen that your boss has the biggest impact on your mental health, and it is absolutely true.

Speaker 1: 17:29

I can tell you from personal experience that that's definitely true and it really shapes the way that you show up at work. It really shapes your values even because, at the end of the day, a lot of us just want to do a good job right. A lot of us want to show up in the best way that we can with good work ethic. We want to please our bosses right. If their values are like very different from yours, if their style of leadership is coercive, your psyche is going to take a beating.

Speaker 3: 18:00

Think about the statement that's commonplace, that is really sad is, and even the memes and jokes. You see it all the time like memes and jokes about oh I've got the Sunday scaries. I'm ready for the day when that doesn't exist anymore for people in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 18:15

The thing that makes me really nervous, when leaders haven't done the work to your great point, when they don't operate with trauma-informed care. These people have your livelihood on the line because their evaluation of your performance, of how you show up, is directly tied to your salary, your benefits sometimes, and so it can feel there's so much at stake on this one person and on this one relationship. And if that's not trauma-informed, or if that person's not handling that with care, woof. So what is trauma-informed? Or if that person's not handling that with care woof. So what is trauma-informed care, especially as a manager? What is it?

Speaker 1: 18:52

Trauma-informed care is basically understanding that most of us have some kind of trauma and understanding that sometimes, especially when we're in a situation where there's a lot of stress or there are triggers involved, that we might act out our trauma. So what does that mean? It means that you might respond in any one of those six ways that I mentioned earlier Fight, flight, freeze, fawn attach, cry for help, collapse and submit the ones that all of us know about. Fight flight, freeze, yeah. And I think that as human beings, on a very kind of day-to-day basis, relational level, we recognize that we can intuit at times, like without, maybe on a non-verbal basis, like when somebody is in freeze, yeah, yeah, maybe over a phone call, when somebody is just completely silent, you're like hello, are you there, is everything okay? So that you can't see there's that element where the nonverbal effect is not there. So trauma informed care just basically provides you a framework for relating to people in a way where you don't immediately start associating behavior with character or what's wrong with you, so to speak, as to what happened to you, right? So it's not saying that we need to know your entire life history or we need to know intimate details, but we want to know in the present what's triggering you, what is making it hard for you to show up fully, for example, to just be present or to ask questions that show that you're engaged and leaning into the work.

Speaker 1: 20:33

So if somebody's not doing that, instead of just saying oh, she's lazy, or like she's not good enough for this role, or she's being passive, aggressive or whatever story you want to attach to their behavior, go beyond that. Dig a little deeper. Create some level of psychological safety and connection and vulnerability right. Show up as a leader for your team. If you can show some degree of vulnerability, your team is going to respond to that. And just now you mentioned the old school way of leadership, right? So people in many ways led to believe that you cannot show vulnerability as a leader, but studies have shown that what promotes connection, what promotes a sense of workplace well-being, is when leaders are able to to have good boundaries but at the same time, have some vulnerability, so that you're not just that strong leader who has everything in place and uses coercive means to get everybody into action, but you're showing up as a real, authentic person, and that's what people connect with, that's what people resonate with, that's what people relate to.

Speaker 2: 21:45

One of the things I think about a lot is just being genuinely interested in what your team is about. What motivates them to your very good point. What does their life look like? Again, you don't need their whole history, but maybe you need to know they're a single mom, or they're caring for a parent with Alzheimer's, or they're neurodivergent and whatever it is. Genuinely being curious, not as to your point, not assuming that if they're acting a certain way that they're bad, but maybe something else is going on. And then digging deeper, I love that idea. Yeah, you mentioned the fight or flight, the phrase. I think we know what. Those are. Right, those are the ones we already know. But I'm curious about fawn collapse and submit and it's a touch cry right A touch cry for help.

Speaker 2: 22:24

Yeah, what does fun look like? Because when I hear that I'm like doing this, I'm like I see that sometimes where you see people like playing with their hair constantly in meeting. Is that what are those three look like? Because I don't know if I know.

Speaker 1: 22:37

That's funny. I love that you shared about that. I can see why you would think that. So, basically, fun is as his name suggests. It's like fawning behavior. It sounds a bit playful, but essentially fawning behavior.

Speaker 1: 22:49

It sounds a bit playful, but essentially fawning means you are in some ways overextending your boundaries and pushing yourself into the background to accommodate somebody else, like you're trying to win somebody's favor. A little bit different from fight, flight, freeze, because that's mediated more by the amygdala, which is the like this emotional center in your brain, and that's very um, visceral. It'sygdala, which is like this emotional center in your brain, and that's very visceral. It's a very visceral reaction. But fawn is actually more mediated by the prefrontal cortex, so there's a lot of even strategy that goes into it.

Speaker 1: 23:17

I love that you brought that up about the hair, because over the centuries it's been shown that women, because of, in many ways, our weakest stature physically I'm talking about physically just we have less muscle mass than men and so we've had to find ways to protect ourselves. And so then that's what a lot of women have over the centuries, used fawning as a strategy to cope within a very patriarchal system, not to say that men don't do it too, because men do it. There's usually an imbalance of power when people fawn right, because a lot of bosses respond to that.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Oh yeah, because it can feel good. Right, yes, yeah, you're coming over to their side. What about collapse and submit? What is that?

Speaker 1: 24:01

So collapse and submit is when you basically just fold over every single time, right, like anytime. Anybody says anything. There's no pushback, there's no accountability, there's no kind of like negotiation, there are no hard conversations, but it's just okay. Okay, sure. Sure, it's a bit different from Fawn, right? So Fawn is a little bit more like there's some strategy to it, where you're thinking actively, what is this person like? You're anticipating his needs like, you're planning almost your moves like five steps ahead. There's a lot of thinking that goes into it. Where you're like, and also in intuiting, you know the other person's needs ahead of yours, right. But collapse and submit is just, basically, if you can think of folding, you just keep folding. In a card game, for example, you don't play a card, you just fold. Yeah, that sounds exhausting, yeah, it's. It's like you've given up you've given up, basically.

Speaker 1: 24:56

You've basically given up, so that that is collapse and submit, and then yeah, that's a cry yeah, yeah, attach, cry for help, so that if you can think of a baby and how babies are like so vulnerable because of their neediness and the helplessness they engender, like extra care and protection from good care from caregivers that actually take the job seriously. Obviously, if it gets to a point where there's too much of that, it can cause burnout in a relationship, right, and it can damage the relationship in the person that is defaulting to that trauma response. It can lead to them losing a sense of self as well, because what happens is learned helplessness, right? So instead of being able to have the presence of mind, to give yourself space to come back to yourself and then think through the problem and then think about how you're going to engage people, what resources you need, who you're going to ask for help for, to think about it in like a calm and like maybe more pragmatic way. But if your default is just to attach to somebody and cry to them for help, then you develop a pattern of learned helplessness over time.

Speaker 1: 25:57

And this can even be within intimate relationships. It can be within professional relationships, right, where one person's always like more than happy to help, more than happy to be the voice of reason, more than happy to be the savior, so to speak. Right, and then the other person is oh, I need your help, and there's nothing wrong with asking for help. I just want to underline that. But if it's become to the point where it's learned helplessness, then that's when you're talking more about this trauma response of attached cry for help I had someone in my life that their father was massively abusive throughout their entire life and their trauma response was absolutely freeze, anytime there was massive conflict, just freeze, literally, physically, vocally.

Speaker 2: 26:42

It was like, yeah, I am. I'm curious if that was always going to be their trauma response, no matter what. So if you have, your trauma response is like the one you always go to, or do people have different trauma responses for different situations?

Speaker 1: 26:57

Yeah, so you can actually have more than one type of default trauma. I do have a boundaries PDF like an embody and boundaries PDF to give away that people can access through a link If they sign up.

Speaker 1: 27:10

They can get it delivered into the inbox. I actually, in that PDF, elaborate more on the symptoms of each bucket of trauma responses. And to your question about your friend who tended to default to freeze, she might actually have other trauma responses as well, but maybe it just didn't manifest in those times that you were with her in her family. It might have been a lot more adaptive for her to just freeze up and so that might have been her, her default. But all I have to say is that a lot of it is just conditioning and how we learn to adapt in an environment. Right. A lot of it is survival. What trauma response works best for that specific environment?

Speaker 1: 27:52

In very combative environments, fight is going to be the trauma response that comes out. Where you're very active, you're very quick to hit back hard, you're very vocal. So that's your developed trauma response. But also consider that the role that you play within the family of origin affects how you cope with conflict. Right. So it's like in families there are sometimes what you call the black sheep or the peacemaker, the golden child, and all of these categories, frameworks for thinking about your trauma response, can shape the various tools that you lean on in order to survive the way that your nervous system adapts and adjusts to survive in that kind of environment.

Speaker 2: 28:36

We know that this is how people might react and they might react in multiple situations. We also know that, to your very good point, 80% of people have some sort of trauma response that they're coming to the workplace with. What do managers need to look out for when we're looking at trauma in terms of the signs here? What should they be looking out for? To be more of an embodied leader or have that trauma response?

Speaker 1: 28:59

So one of the things that you want to look out for is like startle reflexes. So let's say, if you like, come up to your employee and then he or she's very jumpy and they're like that right, or they look checked out, or they're not performing up to the usual standard, they've lost a spark. These are all indicators that they're not their usual selves. Right, you hired them for a reason. Hopefully you had a face-to-face interview at least, and then that's the persona they presented. Yes, I agree, you get to know them better. A reason Hopefully you had a face-to-face interview at least, and then that's the persona they presented. Yes, I agree, you get to know them better over time. But at the same time, there's a baseline self that they bring to work and if they are moving beyond or away from that and not performing up to standard, they're not showing up in the way that you expect and you're asking questions.

Speaker 1: 29:47

It's important to engage your employee. It's important to make time for them. It's important to make them feel safe enough to approach you with their concerns, because they don't have all the answers. There might be other employees in the workplace that's bullying them or making it hard for them to get the job done? Are you, as a boss, creating enough psychological safety as to where they feel like they can confide in you without being branded as a troublemaker and sometimes as a boss? You also have to be a bit more of a coach, and that says to coach them up to that standard and tell them very clearly this is what I expect from you. Let me know if there are things that you need my help on, or if you just have questions or the issues that you're dealing with that I can advocate for you in any way I would. Your employee just needs to know that you have their back. You're not going to throw them under the bus. That is one of the key things that the employees want to feel.

Speaker 2: 30:47

Sometimes it feels as a leader and as a manager. It can feel so complex what you need to do to manage teams and you need to be this perfect person, but at the end of the day, it sounds like what they really need is to feel safe.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Yeah, psychological safety is key, and then obviously, from there we can branch it out to how do you create that psychological safety, right? So we talk about emotional intelligence, and then this brings up somatic intelligence as well, where, if you've done the work and if you're self-aware, there's a mind-body connection. So then you're more aware of how you show up, you're more aware of, hey, when I'm communicating, how do I look? Right, because, like 70% of our communication is nonverbal. So I could be saying all this stuff, but if I look a certain way, people are like not sure if I'm gonna reach out to her.

Speaker 1: 31:34

So a lot of things are contingent on you being, as a leader, aware of the mind-body connection, aware of what self-care looks like, aware of good boundaries and how to lead with a style of leadership that engenders that sense of psychological safety. And part of that is also understanding that every employee is different. There's no cut and paste formula like communication styles, like some people need a more like directive simple, succinct and clear way of communicating, and then some people might respond to a more relational way of communicating. And then some people might respond to a more relational way of communicating. And I'm not saying that you have to be like this magician to read and intuit all these things, but the interesting thing is that once you are able to be more connected within yourself on an intuitive level, you will find that the connection on an individual basis is something that flows naturally.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Yeah, it's not's honestly just be interested in your employees figure this stuff out, have the trust in their relationship Anybody that's ever worked for me. I am absolutely not the perfect person, but one of the things I always hope people feel is that sense of trust and safety and I think if you engender that with people genuinely and you genuinely care for people, you can biff so hard on stuff and they will forgive you for it because they know ultimately the important stuff you did yeah, exactly, and in fact, just because you biff on people, it doesn't mean that's bad, in fact, because because people appreciate honest feedback and people know that they're not perfect.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Nobody wants to just be recognized for this one side of who they are. That's like saccharine. We don't want that. We're whole people and we all have nice and nasty sides. So when somebody can embrace that in us and call it out even or try to hold us accountable, we actually feel loved On a very deep level. There's a sense of being known and seen and accepted. So that's something that I don't think that, as leaders, we should shy away from.

Speaker 3: 33:42

I'd love to talk about who's getting this right. There are workplaces who are focusing on this. In your experience, what are some examples of companies that are excelling in trauma-informed care and embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 33:56

They may not use the words trauma-informed care or even embodied leadership. There are definitely companies that do lead with a focus on mental wellness and they do promote psychological safety and an environment where you can be open. They promote mental health days off where you just take a day to disconnect because you need it for your mental health. They provide employee assistant programs which are comprehensive and trauma-informed, sometimes like they're trauma-informed interventions. So the companies that immediately come to mind are definitely Google, and then also Salesforce and then Mel. This is where we met which is Culture.

Speaker 1: 34:36

First I just love Culture.

Speaker 3: 34:38

First it's not fun for them.

Speaker 1: 34:40

But I'm just sharing from my perspective that when I show up there, it's always welcoming People are always sensitive and it just creates an environment where real relationships can be formed, where it's not about, oh, let's just put up a work front, and it's not about just discussions and transactional relationships. It's about actual relationship and that's where real mental wellness comes. Like you're talking about, let's say, if you have a trauma history, right, and all you knew in the past was like abuse or like emotional neglect and so on and so forth, right, what can change that? Being in an environment like culture first, for example, yeah, where people show up authentically, where you're, if you welcome, you feel met and you feel like there's potential like for deeper relationships and yeah. So these are some of the companies that come to mind when you talk about, uh, trauma-informed and psychologically safe workplaces I love the again.

Speaker 3: 35:37

Not a formal plug for culture first, but yes, that's where we met and they're awesome and I'm a good example of that is so funny and this, the slack group that we're a part of with that group is such one. It's an excellent community for anyone who's interested in joining and I have not been active in Slack for a few weeks because of another project and someone from Culture First reached out to see if I was okay, which is super nice, I'm like there's a ton of people in here, but okay, yeah, like just it's the little extra step, right.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Just as an example of something like that and that's how I just wanted to add to that, mel, because it brought up something so bessel vender coat actually said is one of his most famous quotes is like trauma is not being seen, heard or felt.

Speaker 1: 36:16

Right, obviously, many different types of definitions, but that's to me one of the most succinct ways to express what it feels like to live in an environment where you're this ongoing trauma. You just never acknowledged your emotional needs and never met, and it's like you're not seen, you're not heard, you're not felt, and in our generation, children were literally meant to be seen and not heard. Brought up that way, when there's a certain amount of, like, emotional neglect and trauma that comes with that, where you're not given the tools to process certain things that happen to you. And so even that little gesture where somebody from culture first reached out to you and said, hey, just checked in with you, are you okay? It's acknowledging, yeah, that hey, I just want to know if you're okay, like what's going on, and that they see you, they noticed you, and that speaks volumes. There's a small gesture, but it speaks volumes 100.

Speaker 3: 37:11

And then to your statement. I'm like wait is all of gen x and millennials. Are we just all 100 percent tremendous and trump dies from rvc? Did not heard it's the woke generation.

Speaker 1: 37:23

When you're woke, you're just you. You're gonna say say stuff. You're going to say stuff, 100%.

Speaker 3: 37:27

So our generation's working to break the cycle right. Yeah, yeah. What role? Obviously, francesca and I both come from talent development backgrounds and leadership development. What role does continuous education and training play in building and sustaining trauma-informed workplaces?

Speaker 1: 37:47

In the realm of continuous education and training, one of the key things that I can think about is raising awareness around what trauma-informed care is, what trauma is, creating that language. Speak around it right so that people are able to bring that into work and be more cognizant of it. Even when I talk about somatics, a lot of people don't know what that is. When you're able to bring that into the working vocabulary and help people understand, hey, I'm having back pain here. A lot of our physical ailments are not just isolated. A lot of them are rooted in relational issues that were never resolved, or like psychological just psychological issues that come about as, or like psychological just psychological issues that come about as a result of things that are happening in within relationship or things that happen to you that you never were able to process. Just to give you a little picture, for example, in my own personal life, like I struggle with depression for throughout my marriage, I struggle with ibs irritable bowel syndrome for the entirety of my marriage and I also struggled with insomnia throughout my marriage, like for 10 years, and I tried many times to do whatever I could to get out of all these things and to deal with it within three months of walking out of that destructive marriage. All of it just went away. Naturally, I tried so hard to get off antidepressants, you know, for 10 years and I couldn't. So that, I think, speaks volumes about the impact that all of these unresolved issues, relationally or unprocessed emotions and traumas has on the body. Why I totally believe the body does keep the score. It's sending you messages. And when you're able to develop within the workplace a shared understanding of what, for example, something like somatics is, what, for example, body sensations are Like. When you feel like a pain here, what is it Left in your left chest? That's heartbreak oftentimes. Or when you feel a lump here in your throat, what's that? It could be that maybe you're feeling sad, or that there's stuff that you want to say that you've held back for so long you've had to silence yourself and that accumulates here. There's a pain that comes up. So once people are more cognizant of, hey, your body is sending you messages. It's not just all on your head. There's an actual, real and felt impact of these occurrences within relationship or within your life. Traumatic experiences you've been through that accumulate within the body Once you're able to create a shared understanding and create more awareness around how these things can be managed or dealt with or how people can be supported through these things, through these traumas, then it creates a more open and compassionate workplace where people don't feel like they have to wear masks all the time in order to survive, but they can actually be open and they can actually ask for help and be vulnerable and people can show up for each other, where you can even be silly, like talking about Slack.

Speaker 1: 40:40

I wrote in my other life I'm a mermaid, and I was just being playful at that time. My second singer-songwriter album I shared earlier I'm a musician too is called Mermaid, and it documents my journey out of that relationship. I did a lot of healing through just composing music, writing out my thoughts into lyric, and so the mermaid symbolizes freedom, it symbolizes death, breaking free, and so then I just wrote that, and then somebody responded and she was like, hey, you should check out the mermaid festival yes, it's so fun.

Speaker 3: 41:11

I've been in it twice. I did the parade.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Wait, okay, I will send you pictures after this recording, francesca, I was like what which?

Speaker 3: 41:21

I've been in the parade twice. When I lived in new york city annually, I used to go and with my friends and we were in the mermaid parade.

Speaker 1: 41:30

Yes, and it's so fun. I haven't gone for it yet because I think it had recently just passed by and I was still in New Jersey at a time, but I'm just going to definitely attend it next year. And, yeah, it's nice that people acknowledge these little quirks and little bits for attention in some ways, so it's like people respond to that and if you connect it, yeah, yeah it's fun little community it truly, with the body keeping the score.

Speaker 3: 41:52

I remember I once left a really toxic work environment and within the first week, the first thing I did is I booked a deep tissue massage. It first of all, I felt like I just had lumps on my shoulders and the woman was like, oh my God, is this hurting you? I was like, yes, in the best way possible, get it out of here. And then I took the hardest sleep, for it felt like 48 hours I just everything was releasing and within three months I did not have any of that pain, the body pain.

Speaker 3: 42:30

So it's just so relatable Like how it really does show up for you Question for both of you, and it might.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I tend to like to simplify things, distill them down and really be simple, but I'm wondering if and I've never thought about this way but does all this come down to? As a person, as a leader, like you need to feel, be felt, seen and heard yourself. What does that look like for you? Have you done the work to do that and then be able to feel, see and hear the people around you? Does it all come down to do it for yourself and then do it for other people?

Speaker 1: 43:06

Yeah. So that's a really great point that you raise Francesca, because ultimately, at the end of the day, you can't give to others what you don't give to yourself. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:15

You can fake it a little bit, but I don't think you really can.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Yeah, it builds up after a while. If all you're doing is putting up a mask, you're just going to be rolling around in resentment. Yeah, be rolling around in resentment and you're going to feel like burnt out and you're going to be pissed. When that, you can try to hide that, but like it's just going to seep out and it's going to be experienced on a felt level. What should leaders?

Speaker 3: 43:37

know what's one step, if they do nothing else, that someone can take tomorrow to start to really practice this embodied leadership and start to build more trauma awareness within the workplace. What's one thing that they can implement?

Speaker 1: 43:58

I definitely think that the first thing that I would start with is reflection and I know that might be a little bit off center for the fact that we've been talking about trauma-informed care all the while, but giving yourself that space to reflect, it actually helps you to come back to your body. It helps, in some ways, your body to catch up with your mind, or vice versa as well, because sometimes the body often knows things ahead of time and then it takes a while for the mind to register it. So, when you give yourself space and time to reflect, maybe take the time off, go on like a trip, something that's not agenda-based, right, where you give yourself that space and time to reflect, and then you'll be able to think maybe, oh, how have I been responding in this situation? Are there certain patterns, in a way that I relate, and then from there you can think about what you want for your team or what you want for yourself as a leader, and then look at the various options available to you.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Or should I talk to my boss, for example? Should I talk? Should I engage a therapist or coach? Or should I call up a good friend or read a book, like all these things? There are a multitude of ways to be an effective leader, to be more trauma-informed, but if it's just another list thing on a list of things to do, it's good. You're not going to show up with presence and authenticity. You're going to be like let's just get it done now and it's not going to be authentic. It's not going to come from a place of being fed. So give yourself that space and the time to reflect on where you are, who you are and where you want to go.

Speaker 3: 45:31

Reflection. I feel like it's such a missed opportunity for everybody because the environment, the world we live in today. It can be easy to not take that time, so it's a good reminder. That's the place to start Debra. We like to close out every episode with Rapid Round. It's yes, no one word answers usually, but feel free to give more if you're like this warrants more. So.

Speaker 1: 46:07

I'm going to give it to you. Are you ready? Yes, I'm excited.

Speaker 3: 46:09

Okay. Is it possible for every workplace to become trauma informed?

Speaker 1: 46:16

Yes, I do think it's possible, because ultimately, being trauma informed is just being more aware about your humanity and how you can connect to other humans in a way that is meaningful and how you can connect to other humans in a way that is meaningful.

Speaker 3: 46:31

Yeah, you hear that folks Pay attention to humanity at work.

Speaker 1: 46:36

Should trauma-informed care be a mandatory part of leadership training? I wouldn't want to go as far as to say it's mandatory. One of the key tenets of trauma-informed care is choice. So I think ultimately people have to be able to opt into that. But I do think that if people understood the benefits of trauma-informed care and how it leads to a more cohesive and innovative workplace where people feel safe and it's more fun, it's more engaging, it's just a more positive environment to be in. And how can you get the most out of your time at work? You're going to spend like 40 to 80 hours of time at a place working on something. Don't you want it to be enjoyable? Don't you want it to be meaningful and engaging? So those are the key benefits of trauma-informed care, and then add to that productivity, and there you have your answer.

Speaker 3: 47:19

Yeah, what I'm hearing is it's a good high opt-in if you can do it Strongly encouraged. I'm not saying it's required or mandatory, but Are leaders who practice embodied leadership more successful in retaining talent? 100%, yes, okay, and what is your go-to leadership practice to nurture embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 47:47

go-to leadership practice to nurture embodied leadership. So just now I mentioned reflection, so that's a key part of my life. Every morning when I wake up, I craft out some time for myself half an hour to sometimes even an hour to spend time on just spiritual material, a devotional that I read. I'm big in my faith, so I spend time on doing things that feed my spirit, feed my soul. Music is a big part of that too. Writing, journaling those are all practices that I keep so that I can, in many ways, stay sane in a world where you're like so many things are constantly vying for your attention and then you have to keep prioritizing things. That's definitely one thing that I would recommend to leaders.

Speaker 1: 48:25

I think regular therapy, regular coaching sessions that's also really helpful, and there are so many resources and tools out there, books you can read it's really important to stay connected. As a person, I'm an introvert, right, I can spend hours on end on my own, but it's actually not really healthy to isolate yourself for long periods of time, because being around other people actually does help you in some ways to come back to yourself. After this podcast, I know I'm going to be energized to do other things, so that that's been my experience talking to people, having some conversations, having another part of my mind opened up, like it gives me inspiration to do more. It gives me the impetus to move forward because that engagement itself is a set, gives me a sense of meaning and purpose I just so appreciate you joining us to talk about this.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Oh yeah, I know I really loved chatting with you guys and I just love the vibe. You guys really keep it real and that's really what's needed. But especially when you talk about, like corporate life, because oftentimes people feel like, oh, I can't say this, I can't do this, and it's just. You keep it real and I think it's so important.

Speaker 3: 49:37

Thanks, hey, friends, this episode of your Work Friends was hosted by Francesca Ranieri and myself, mel Platt.

Speaker 2: 49:44

This episode was produced and edited by Mel Plett and myself, Francesca Ranieri.

Speaker 3: 49:49

Our theme music is by Pink Zebra and you can follow us over on all of our social media platforms Instagram, tiktok, youtube and, if you're so inclined, join us over on LinkedIn in our large and growing community, and you can email us at friend at your work, friendscom, or visit us on yourworkfriends.com. Also, folks, please like, subscribe and leave a review. If you enjoyed this episode, and if you really enjoyed it, please share with a work friend or two. Thanks, thank you.