Getting the ‘RIGHT’ Job

Your Work Friends Podcast: Getting the Right Job with James Hudson

Jobs aren’t magic…

And, they’re not always the right fit for you. Jobs are built, banded, and budgeted—before you ever apply. In this episode, we sit down with Talent Acquisition expert James Hudson (Regeneron, Nike, Levi’s, Net-a-Porter) to break down how jobs are created, how pay gets set, and how to land the role that actually fits you. Plus, we answer your biggest job search questions—and call out some wild hiring trends you should probably skip (yes, even that one with the parents).

Listen to the full episode here

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Francesca : 0:00

The fact that you can whisper to Alexa and she whispers back is a little creepy. I'm not gonna lie, it's a little creepy.

Mel : 0:08

Sorry to have taught you that, yeah so me and my son.

Francesca : 0:12

So now it's like yes, Francesca.

Mel : 0:18

I am banned from Portland.

Francesca : 0:36

Hello and welcome to your work. Friends were to HR leaders with no filter, but we're exposing the work stuff you need to know I'm Francesca and I'm Mel and Mel, how are you today?

Mel : 0:48

I'm doing great. It is beautiful morning in Portland. It's been Fantastic to spend a few days with you here, seeing the city, planning our year, so I'm excited for 2024. How?

Francesca : 1:00

are you? Yeah, mel made the truck out from Connecticut to to semi snowy, cloudy Portland Oregon.

Mel : 1:09

I've experienced all four seasons in three days. It's great.

Francesca : 1:12

That is Portland in winter. There you are, yeah. Well, now this week we had a really fantastic interview with James Hudson, who is a talent acquisition leader. He's held executive roles at places like Nike, leave eyes for over 21 netta portet and he's a contributor to Forbes, and I think he's just an all-around rad person. We talked to him this week about Getting a job, and not only getting a job, but getting the right job. Now, what did you think about our talk with him.

Mel : 1:44

I think it's so valuable the information that people will get out of this episode, just the tips, good practices, red flags to look out for and wonderful to meet James. He's fantastic yeah.

Francesca : 1:56

So here's the deal, folks today we're going to give you the interview with James Hudson, a talent acquisition vice president and leader. You'll be able to leave that episode understanding how jobs even become a job and how do you really get the right job For you. And we also asked an answer some of the burning questions you all have, like should you negotiate your offer and is it really all who you know? He answers all of that. We'll come back after the interview with our roast and toast. So here's our interview about getting the right job with James Hudson. We are super stoked to have James Hudson with us today. James, how are you this today? How are you today? What's going on?

James : 2:42

I'm pretty good. Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me on your show. It is an honor to be here. I just got back from a long trip over the holidays to Europe and I'm back in what is supposed to be sunny California and it's rain outside my window. So whilst I'm currently working on my job Outside my window, so whilst I'm grateful to be home, the the weather, it's a little bit of pathetic fallacy, it's yeah like outside and maybe I feel a little bit bleak inside.

Francesca : 3:09

But oh, you get past that today. You got to bring the energy, james. You can't, you can't bring the bleak energy. No, it's so funny. I think I'm just north of you up here in Portland. Mel and I are sitting up in Portland today. We're getting snow, you're getting rain, we're getting snow, we're getting snow.

Mel : 3:24

It's, it's coming. I did read, though, that in 40 days, the sunshine is going to stay out until 7 pm Again, so that's moving us from the sad era yeah.

Francesca : 3:34

I think we all needed to hear that today. I think I think James needs some sunshine in his soul. So there you go. You got 40 days to go, james. 40 days. Yeah Well, friends, we're stoked to introduce James to you today. James is a talent acquisition leader and has been an executive at places like Nike, levi's, netta Porte. He's also a pre-massive contributor on Forbes and an all-around rad person. And, james, you and I Overlapped when we were at Nike.

James : 4:04

We share that very unique trauma bond it.

Francesca : 4:07

We indeed do, and if you know, you know, you know, you know. So Today what we wanted to do is give everyone a survey of how this stuff works. How do jobs even come to fruition? How do they go from a concept to like a job board? How does someone find the right job for them Not just a job, but the right job for them, especially from your perspective? And then there's a lot of burning questions that are out there, so we'll do a quick round robin at the end to see what do you think about some of these burning questions. Everybody wants answers to. How does that sound? I'm gonna do my best to answer all these questions.

James : 4:42

Yeah, there will be a test. We will be grading you and judging you at the end.

Francesca : 4:45

So there you go. I'm just so, James. How did you even come into this space as a talent acquisition leader?

James : 4:55

You know, I've been leading talent acquisition teams for a long time now, for the best part of two decades. My last team at Nike, where you and I worked together, I had a team of our hundred recruiters that the team. Before that at Levi's, I had 60 recruiters working for me. So over the course of 20 years I've worked alongside hundreds, if not thousands, of recruiters and obviously met many more peers in the industry at events. And what have you? Of all those thousands and thousands of recruiters that I met, nobody ever intended to become a recruiter, and my story is no different. I fell into the profession Like everybody else appears to have done. If there's anyone out there that in high school, wanted to be a recruiter, please come and find me. I want to talk to you. So my actually, I actually think my story is pretty interesting in that In college, first time around my undergraduate degree, I worked on the shop floor at Gap and ice Dating myself.

James : 6:03

Here in the late 90s in Europe, gap a was expanding pretty quickly and B had fairly innovative approaches to how they manage their workforce, in that they recognize that a large percentage of the folks working for them would be part-time, transient workers, college kids what have you.

James : 6:25

In the UK, unlike here in the United States, it's pretty common to go quote-unquote out of state to college. Obviously we don't call them states but people. You know, people live in one part of the country and Go to college in a completely different part of the country. Back then the cost model was completely different. Our cost model in the UK now is Getting closer to the cost model here. Well, obviously, more frequently people tend to stay in state because it can be cheaper, cheaper, yeah, anyway, you, I like many people in the UK, my undergraduate degree was far from my home and Gap had this program where during term time you could work in your college store and during vacation time you could transfer your employment to your home store, and so they had this really flexible workforce that you could be employed year round.

Francesca : 7:18

Yeah, Get that discount too. Get that discount at home. Got to be looking right in those genes 1969.

James : 7:25

Yeah, that was cool in the 90s. Yeah.

Francesca : 7:27

I know, I know, I'm so what happened to Gap? Because I'm like, I'm still like is Gap still a?

James : 7:32

thing it's going to be. The new CEO just came over from Mattel and was responsible for the Barbie resurgence, so I'm excited.

Francesca : 7:42

I'm pulling for Gap. I'm pulling for Gap Gap banana. I'm athletic. Well, maybe I'm pulling for him all.

James : 7:47

Yeah, san Francisco hometown. Then in my last year of college I ended up moving to the team that hired the staff for all the new stores. So that was my first taste of interviewing and of hiring at scale, and I really enjoyed it, even though I was like 19 years old.

Francesca : 8:04

Making those decisions. I love it. What did you major?

James : 8:06

in.

Francesca : 8:06

Did you even major in HR, or are we Were you like mechanical engineering, my undergraduate?

James : 8:10

degree was art history. Nice, I didn't go back to business school eventually and get a proper degree in something sensible, but yeah, my undergraduate degree at art school was art history Not very useful at all. So, yeah, that was my first taste of hiring. Then, like very many British people, I took a year out after college and went traveling, and I actually stayed away for a year and a half. I spent six months in Southeast Asia and a year in Australia, and then when I got back to London a year and a half later, I had no money at all because I'd basically been on vacation for a year and a half and I have no idea what I wanted to do. And somebody said why don't you go work in recruiting? Because you've done that before and you'll make a ton of money. And I was like, oh OK, that sounds good. And so I interviewed with lots of different search firms in London, without really even knowing what executive search was, and landed a job with a search firm that operated in the sort of retail, head office, corporate retail jobs space, and so that was my first taste of professional recruiting. I did that for three years and what I learned was I loved the people side of search, but I didn't enjoy the cold calling and business development and sales that comes with agency recruiting, and so I knew that I wanted to make the transition to an in-house role so that I could keep the people side but lose the sales and business development element.

James : 9:37

I had just bought a house in London and one of my clients was at the time. This tiny little website had fewer than 200 employees, less than $40 million in revenue, but I just totally believed in what they were doing. Natalie, the founder, was just so visionary. Naomi, the head of HR, who I'd been working with as a vendor, I just adored her, and every week they would send out a list of all the open vacancies that they had and ask us and their other search partners which we could fill. And one week the list came through and they wanted their first in-house recruiter on a six month contract, and I knew that was it, and so I took a 50% pay cut and left a full-time job, even though I had a mortgage to pay, because I just really believed in what Netaporte were doing.

James : 10:30

And still, 20 years later, it's the best career decision I ever made, because when I joined it was this tiny, tiny company and I was just super fortunate to be right place, right time and to be able to grow with the organization for the best part of the near decade that I was there. We had triple digit year-over-year growth, so complete hypergrowth. We opened offices in New York, in Hong Kong, in Shanghai. We opened distribution centers around the world.

James : 11:02

I got to build out the internal recruiting function. In my first year there I hired 150 people on my own. By the time I left, nearly a decade later, we were hiring thousands of people every year and I established recruiting teams around the world. They sent me to business school and it was just the most amazing experience because I was having practical, real-world examples of everything that I was learning in school, because the business was growing so fast. We went through three rounds of M&A so I got to see both sides of the corporate transaction and I think everything that happened during that first decade then enabled me to make the transition to much larger scale quote-unquote corporate America where I've been ever since Right now.

James : 11:48

I'm resting, but yeah, well-deserved rest.

Francesca : 11:52

Well-deserved rest too. It's interesting, too, when you know you're running towards something right, even though it means a 50% pay cut, even though it means a smaller footprint, but then it turns into something exponential right, and it turns into something that sounds like it just married your gap experience, your agency experience, just from a global perspective too. Even that art history, I'm sure, came into play somewhere. Somehow. Design is design. And then you've gone on to things like Levi's, nike, et cetera too, and just kept on growing your career. It sounds like.

James : 12:28

Yeah, exactly, If Nettaporte hadn't grown so quickly, I don't think I'd have been able to make the transition from dot com to corporate America, just because of the scale and complexity.

James : 12:41

But by the time I left Nettaporte I had teams that I directly managed in Shanghai, Hong Kong, a very large team in London, I had a technical recruiting team in London and then a non-technical SGNA team in London and then another large team in New York.

James : 12:57

So because I'd already been able to have the global experience, the cross-border experience, multi-lingual recruiting experience, that then enabled me for my first big job, which was Levi's in Europe. So I moved to Levi's, moved me to Brussels, and so for two years I was crisscrossing Europe rolling out the workday technology and re-establishing the recruiting function in the region, and then from that job I was promoted to the head of recruiting role in California. So that brought me to San Francisco eight years ago now. And then my most recent job was head of talent acquisition for Nike's director consumer businesses worldwide. So, as you know, Nike's roughly $50 billion in revenue or it was maybe not this year and the director consumer piece was roughly half of that. And so my team worldwide hired 40,000 people a year for all of the satellite offices and stores around the world.

Francesca : 14:01

Yeah, this is the thing and one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you today, because I think most people that don't sit in HR or sit in talent acquisition, I don't think most people understand how big and complex recruiting organizations, internally at companies, are. So if you're in a fortune, if you're trying to get a job at a Fortune 500, 1,000, 5,000 firm, you're going to be dealing with a very large team of people that are incredibly skilled at trying to find the best person for the role Sometimes, yeah.

Francesca : 14:34

Listen, there are some real dipshits out there. That's actually true in every single team and everybody knows that. But there are systematic tools, processes, procedures in order to find the right person for the role and, a lot of times, some great people and sometimes some dipshits. So one of the things that we wanted to jam with you about, james, was to kind of educate people on how does something go from a concept like we need somebody in this role to a job posting. I'm wondering if you can open the hood for us and just share. How does a job become a job? Almost like how does a bill become a bill. How does a job become a job?

James : 15:11

It's a great place to start, thank you, thank you. It's one of those areas where there's a ton of myth and misunderstanding. Quit. Let me caveat this by saying everything I'm going to say is from the perspective of large scale organizations, fortune 500 size companies and obviously in smaller organizations you know 100 people organizations everything is a bit looser.

James : 15:42

But the second that you get to any kind of scale, there is a huge amount of rigor and guardrails in how the business is run, and especially once that, because that business becomes publicly traded, there are rules and laws around what you can and cannot do, and that bleeds into every part of the enterprise and obviously HR is no different than any other part of the enterprise. There are rules, regulations and, in many cases, laws around what we can and cannot do. So caveat number one In any large organization there is a strategy which is, you know, often a three to five year plan, and there is an annual operating plan or budget, which is the shorter term, you know, six to 12 month horizon plan, and everything is captured in that plan. For most organizations, irrespective of industry, for most organizations the number one overhead is people. Yes, labor.

James : 16:48

The wage bill is the biggest expenditure and therefore subject to the largest amount of scrutiny. Organizations have a very clear idea at every point. So over the next 90 days, over the next 180 days, over the next year and over the next five years, what their wage bill is going to be. This is all a very long way of saying. Jobs are planned way in advance and as recruiting teams, we play a role in how those roles are brought to market. But we do not create those roles, we do not decide those roles. They're decided by at the highest level of the organization, then with the leadership teams within each function, with their finance teams way in advance, so that the biggest expense of the organization can be controlled and measured.

James : 17:49

In any normal established organization, 80% of jobs that are hired are going to be backfill or replacement for people that have left and roughly 20% are going to be net new headcount growth.

James : 18:03

That has been decided as part of the budget and strategy strategy process to decide we're going to grow this discipline or in this market or in this geography and therefore we need to add x amount of headcount so that 20% of headcount is pretty fixed because we've decided we need x amount of people in Germany or India or in data science, for example.

James : 18:28

The 80% is a little bit more ambiguous because obviously we don't know in advance who is actually going to leave, who's going to get another job, who's going to get promoted, what have you? But we know that in any given year, 20% of your workforce will leave one way or another, so you know that you're going to have to backfill 20% of people. So if your organization is 10,000 people, you know that in any given year you're going to have 2,000 vacancies to fill. You don't know exactly where they're going to be, but you can broadly assume, based on the size of the individual functions within your organization, we'll have 200 to fill in finance, we'll have 150 to fill in marketing, and so that's kind of at the highest level. What's going on with like how headcount is created and how roles come and go and exist within an organization?

Francesca : 19:21

Yeah, I think that's important, though, to know, because I just even know that most organizations are looking at like a 20% of the open jobs they have every year net new right we decide we're going to start making paper clips right Now we need paper clip makers, and we've historically been paper makers, for example. I think that's really important to know, especially because when people one of the questions we get a lot is especially around layoffs, for example, like how can people have open jobs and lay people off at the same time, and a lot of sometimes that's because a skill gap right, Because people we still need to hire the paper clip makers and we had to lay off the paper makers, if you will. So I think it's just helpful to have that context of how these things come into bear annually.

James : 20:05

Yeah, totally so. Then let's get into how the business is operating day by day.

Francesca : 20:11

Yeah.

James : 20:12

I'm running a team in finance and I know that for this quarter ahead I've got two net new headcount that have been assigned to my team that I can hire in this quarter. I can't hire them any sooner because the cost of that headcount is phased into the overall operating plan and if I'm the leader of that team and I want to hire those roles early, I can't just open them. I would have to get approval from either the leader of the function or maybe even up, depending on the size of the organization, maybe even up to C level. That's how tightly controlled costs are in most organizations. So even though the headcount exists, the headcount exists from a point in time, from a point in the budget, and if you can't even bring it forward because that would be adding more costs that wasn't planned for. So I think that's an important caveat that new headcount is phased and is hired when it's supposed to be hired Then if somebody resigns from the team and again, depending on the organization, it isn't even an automatic one-for-one approval that we could replace the finance manager that resigned.

James : 21:24

You often still have to go through an approvals process to get that role opened and the leader of your function may decide to reassign that headcount elsewhere and you might not get to backfill that role. But only after all that has happened does the role get passed to the recruiting team. The recruiting team just executes on a plan that has already been set. We're not responsible for creating headcount, for gatekeeping headcount, for deciding on which roles get filled. That is all done at the leadership and at the HR business partnering level.

Francesca : 21:58

Yeah, I think it's really important for people to know too, because a lot of times, when people interview for jobs, there's a difference between the hiring manager, the person that is going to be your boss, right and there's a and your recruiter. And this is why it's because the person that is going to be leading you is not the person that's going to necessarily be finding you and taking you through the acquisition process. Those are two separate people 100%.

Francesca : 22:21

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, the other thing I'm curious about is do you find that in most organizations like, for example, when I've been leading teams before I had $2 million for payroll, that was my payroll budget and I could decide how those roles and that pay was distributed among roles? Do you find, too, that when you have a job rec open that you're given a dollar amount? Like so, for example, you've got a job role open and this role cannot exceed $100,000 a year, $200,000 a year Are you typically also given a dollar amount too when the job rec opens? Just out of curiosity.

James : 22:59

So there's a few different things at play here. As the leader of the organization, it can happen in a few different ways. You can be given a total number $2 million and therefore you can hire 20 people $100,000, or you can hire two people at $1 million each. Yeah, in some organizations you're given both size and shape. You're given $2 million is your headcount budget, but you can only hire one leader, three managers and 10 associates, and so then that $2 million is already portioned out for you.

James : 23:37

Irrespective of how that happens to you as the leader of the organization, when you decide how your headcount budget is going to be spent for net new hires, those roles then need to be graded and leveled, because and again this is in larger organizations there are set bands and steps in the compensation framework and all roles are anchored to those bands and steps, and in a large organization there can there's typically 16 different steps in the pay hierarchy, so the bands run horizontally and then across the bands running vertically are job families, and so a level one role in finance will have a salary range and a level one role in marketing will have a salary range, and whilst they will be similar, they will not necessarily be identical because the ranges are anchored back to the organizational compensation philosophy, which is either tethered to the cost of living or the cost of labor in the market where the organization is either operating or hiring talent.

James : 24:54

So there's a huge amount of complexity in the background as to how roles are graded and priced and so as a recruiter, when you're given a live role, you know exactly where it sits in the organizational hierarchy it's a level five. It's a level five role in finance. So you know the salary band for that role. Roles are typically pegged at the midpoint of the range, so $125,000. So as a hiring manager, you will be told okay, you've got a level five role and it needs to come in at $125,000. But then your HR business partner might say well, actually the rest of your team is pretty legacy.

James : 25:47

And therefore their salary level are all around the sort of $115, $120,000. So you can't even go to midpoint. You can only go to 90% comp ratio for this hire to maintain internal equity. And so as a recruiter, when you get the live role, you get a lot of pieces of information about where this job has to land, whereas recruiters do not decide. We have to execute against what the budget is based on. All of those factors I've described.

Francesca : 26:20

Going back to what you started, this conversation with. This is so complex. It can get incredibly complex in terms of the amount of people in the room making the decisions from top to bottom. All the variables that we need to consider, even from bands that are well established to things like pay equity on a team to make sure that things are equitable and that you're also competitive right in the marketplace from a talent perspective. It's just really good to know, because if you've never been in HR or in talent acquisition or a hiring manager, most people don't know this and would be like well, I just want to make a million dollars a year, can you do that? It's like no, you're a level five in finance and this is the midpoint, and that's why Also good to know that there's just things like bands and pay equity as well, just to understand the lay of the land. I know, mel, you wanted to talk about finding a job, and not only finding a job, but finding the right job for you.

Mel : 27:16

Yeah, I really love earlier how we talked about your story, james, that you ran towards something that had a fire in you, and we want everyone to feel that way right, so want to make sure folks are finding the right job, not just landing a job, and would love your tips and tricks on that.

James : 27:32

A great question and it's, I think, very timely, in that we're living in an information age where we have far more transparency in all areas of our lives than we did even a decade ago, but there is still a degree of opacity around what it's like inside organizations. But yeah, we're also living in a time when we have five different generations in the workforce in some organizations, and the expectations of Gen Z are wildly different from even millennials, and I just think it's really interesting how these expectations and demands of the newer workforces are changing the work landscape and hopefully for the better, because what we have has not worked for so many different parts of society. Right, it's very clear that how we've run things up to now has not been great.

Francesca : 28:42

Yeah, it kind of sucked. I think this is the thing that a lot of people don't think about.

Francesca : 28:47

I was telling Mel this the other day when I first started working. So I'm 44, right when I first started working, my first job was at Accenture and I got a desktop and I remember I loved my time at Accenture. It's not an Accenture, but I remember being in the office and working until 10 o'clock at night and there was not a question of whether or not I was going to work. This is what was expected. You earn your stripes, you labor so you can get to that partner level. That was what was expected and I love the idea. We've been talking a lot on the pot around. Do we have to live like this? Do we need a dream of labor? And I feel like your Gen Z is coming in and being like guys. This blows what are we doing?

Mel : 29:26

Yeah, my favorite tic-tac recently was a young woman who just started her first full-time job and I really had empathy for her because she was like is this, it Is this life? I work, and then I have no time for my friends or any of my hobbies. I work, I come home, I go to the gym, I cook dinner, I go to sleep and it's like Groundhog's Day and she was having somewhat of a panic attack about it. Right, and she made a good point. Francesca, you and I have the same kind of history there. I also had a desktop in my first job in big law, working until 10, and then you get home and you're like just recycled. But we were always told this is what's expected. I really love that.

Mel : 30:06

Gen Z is bringing a different perspective and millennials started it a little bit. I like to see that Gen Z is really kind of demanding more transparency in the workplace, including recent laws around salary transparency, even in job descriptions. I think now it's more important than ever. How can people find the right fit? So one of the things that's an interesting topic to me is the legitimacy about what the culture is like, what you're going to experience in the workplace. How can people find that information out? So if a candidate's going out and they're researching different companies for the job that they're looking for, how do they know that that company is legit about what they're putting out there and it's not just kind of word, lip service, on their website?

James : 30:54

And what's great about? I mean, there are a lot of negatives to living in the information economy, but what's great about the information economy is that it was so much more networked than we ever were before. So my number one tip is obviously start by trying to connect with people on LinkedIn that work at the company or companies where you're hoping to work, and obviously try and connect with a cross section of folks, so people within your discipline. So if you're a marketing, obviously focus on the marketing team. But also, what's great about LinkedIn is LinkedIn will help you find the people that are most active on the platform. So go where it's warm, right? So if you want to work at Nike and actually the people at Nike that are most active on LinkedIn are in supply chain well, start there, right, because they still work at the organization. So target folks at the places that you want to work and start to make connections with them on LinkedIn, and then the more time that you spend with them virtually will hopefully lead to at least a coffee chat where you can ask them what it's really like. Tip number one yeah. Tip number two Glassdoor is a great resource.

James : 32:09

If you take it to the next level, glassdoor is like Yelp, right Right. It's polarized, in that you've got a lot of positive and a lot of negative, because those are the people that are mostly motivated to say something. So you have to be a little bit discerning when you're reading reviews on Glassdoor. Still will tell you that the average user reads six comments before they form an opinion. I would say, okay, read 30. Do you know what I mean? Like this is somewhere you're going to be spending 40 hours a week for the next two, three, five years. Like read as much as you can to get more of a sense of are these just angry people or is this a theme that may or may not be concerning to me? And then where it gets really interesting is last year Glassdoor launched really powerful new functionality, which hasn't had much airtime and I really wish more people knew about it, in that they allow you to slice the data by demographic and so on Glassdoor. Right now, you can see the average company rating for the employees that work there and it's out of five and they might have a 3.5 or a 4.0.

James : 33:30

And then what you can do is slice it by demographic and say well, what do women think? What do LGBTQ people think, what do people of color think and what's really? And I encourage everyone to go and try this. What's obviously really disappointing is that for virtually every company out there the underrepresented folks, their scores are always lower In every organization, even your dream organizations. Women, people of color, lgbtq folk consistently have a worse time than the general population. That sucks, but that's the society that we live in. What I encourage folks to do is look at the Delta. If you accept, rightly or wrongly, that it's always going to be lower for those of us that are not straight white men, look at the Delta and where the number is, particularly where the gap is particularly big. That might indicate not might it does indicate that that organizational culture is not somewhere that you would thrive, irrespective of how you identify. Do you want to work in a place where women, lgbtq folk and people of color consistently have a worse experience?

Francesca : 34:45

No, the answer is no, absolutely not. Don't go there. Yeah, exactly.

Mel : 34:52

Oh, I love that feature because I think it's incredibly important to gain that perspective, especially as a woman. If you're LGBTQ, if you're a person of color, being able to see what that experience is like it gives you that inside look into the culture.

James : 35:09

There's no smoke without fire, right? If there are consistently people saying really terrible things about the place that you want to work, there may be some truth in that. And then my last tip is if you get as far as an interview at your quote unquote dream organization, again, irrespective of how you personally identify, ask if the organization has ERGs employee resource groups and then ask as part of your interview process if you can meet with someone from that group either a group that you identify with or a group that you're an ally to and if they don't have ERGs, red flag number one. And if they have ERGs but won't let you speak to anybody, red flag number two. It tells you that something shady is going on and you don't want to work there.

Mel : 35:58

What other red flags should people look out for in the job description interview process? What are some things that stand out to you that folks can pay attention to?

James : 36:08

There's a ton of click-batey articles about these red flags in job descriptions, and I'm super wary of that because, again, coming from having worked in a side corporate America for a long time, I know that job descriptions can often be literally 10 years old and have been no relation whatsoever on what it's actually A what the job is or, b what it's like to work there, and so, yeah, you never know who wrote the job description or how old it is. So I don't know that there's anything super valuable that you can get from that. It's more what you can pick up on by people that are currently working there either what they're saying on review sites, what you're able to glean from them by networking on LinkedIn, or what you're able to discover during the interview process. I think that's your best barometer.

Mel : 37:05

That leads me to my next question. Around the interview process, you're in the interview, especially since a job description, as you said, it can be old. Sometimes they don't get updated for years, as you mentioned. So what are some questions candidates should ask in every interview to make sure that they understand what their duties will be? What does their day-to-day look like? What does the team look like? What are some things that they should ask, no matter what, just to get a very clear picture of the truth, of what their experience will be like in that position.

James : 37:38

Yeah, and before I even get into specific questions, I think it's about remembering and framing it in your mind that the interview is a two-way street.

James : 37:52

You're interviewing them just as much as they are interviewing you and what is scary. But what you have to get really good at is that when you come out of an interview and you think, oh hell, no, then you have to hold on to that. You have to be like no, trust it. Yeah, I have decided no, because, especially in a market like this, where it's so easy to fall into a scarcity mindset, we come out of an interview thinking that, ooh, I've got a bad feeling and then we talk ourselves into it because we need to get a job. Trust your instincts. If you get a bad feeling, there is a reason for that.

Mel : 38:30

Trust your gut. I've had that feeling before. Have you ever walked away from an interview process after an interview and just said no and sent them a note about it?

James : 38:41

I have done the opposite of that. I've done what I've told people not to do, in that, if you look at my career history, you'll see that I'm a tenure guy. I tend to stay around in places for a long time and wherever it's been a short tenure, it's because and there's only two of them it's because I found out too late that my personal values did not align to the values of the organization. And I had a very brief stint at Forever 21, which, since I left it, went bankrupt and is now owned by a VC firm. So I feel comfortable saying this. But when I went to interview at the HQ in Los Angeles, there were Bibles in the meeting room and I was like this is weird, like religion does not belong in the workplace.

Mel : 39:41

Absolutely not. That's strange, that's very strange.

James : 39:45

Yeah, and it's because the family that owned at the time were very strong believers in their faith, which is great. But that does not belong at work and obviously I ignored that giant red flag and was one of the more toxic environments I'd worked in because they were trying to mix their personal views with corporate America and those two things I will tell you.

Francesca : 40:10

That has been absolutely true for me too, like I've had two jobs that I knew in the interview process no bueno and they ended up being no bueno, and it's almost like dating. You know you date somebody and like week two you know week two like the thing that's going to end it. It's like food poisoning as well. Right, you can eat a whole day's worth of stuff, but you knew it was the fish. You know that's the same shit. It's the same shit. Love the advice. Don't do it.

Mel : 40:39

Just say no, just say no.

James : 40:41

Trust your instincts.

Mel : 40:42

I recently read that there's a proposal to pay people for their time in the interview process to avoid this type of thing. What do you think about that?

James : 40:58

I really strongly believe that if you are going to be setting folks any kind of take homework or any kind of lengthy assessment, you should pay them for their time.

James : 41:14

You certainly shouldn't be requiring people to give you their IP for free, right? However, having worked on the other side of the desk in corporate America, trying to bring any of that to life would be such a nightmare, both in America and in Europe, where we have different sets of rules and regulations. Like you're essentially trying to either payroll someone that's not already on the payroll or create, make a new vendor for someone that's not a vendor, and for anyone that's worked in corporate America, you know that doing either of those things is an administrative nightmare. So trying to get to a place where that happens at scale, I just don't see it happening anytime soon, because you know how are you going to pay hundreds or you know, in my case, hundreds of thousands of people that are going through an interview process, and not just the money, how are you going to fund it, which is question one. But even assuming there is a budget for it, how are you actually going to physically pay these people, right? Just, it's not going to happen.

Mel : 42:25

Yeah, that's complicated it can be. It's its own whole department just managing that alone.

James : 42:29

How are you going to ensure that they pay their tax so that they've identified you from their tax, are they?

Mel : 42:33

1099?.

Francesca : 42:36

Yeah, I feel like everybody's getting target gift cards Be happy.

James : 42:40

Even that's questionable right.

Francesca : 42:42

Yeah, there are rules.

James : 42:43

Yeah, yeah, like.

Francesca : 42:45

Oh yeah, you can't go over.

Mel : 42:46

Yeah, there's a lot of complication. It's interesting. I've heard that tossed around a few times now. It's an interesting concept.

James : 42:55

Nice idea. I just don't see it being executed at scale.

Mel : 42:58

Yeah, yeah. In terms of the inner how many interviews? How many is too many? What's what's a red flag a candidate should look out for In terms of you know, now you're on your 15th interview for this role. Is there a magic number or a place where you're like, if you're getting to this many interviews, you should probably hit pause? That should give you that's a red flag that you should look out for.

James : 43:26

I love this question because there is a clear, unequivocal answer which I wish more people knew. Over the course of three or four years, Google did a huge longitudinal study where they looked at tens of thousands of hires and hundreds of thousands of data points, and they were able to conclusively prove that the magic number for interviews is four, Because after four the quality of the decision making process does not improve enough to justify the initial, the further investment of time. The sweet spot for high quality decision making is for interviews, and so any forward thinking and well run TA function knows that because they've all read Laszlo Box book work rules. If you haven't read work rules, I encourage you to go out and read it. It's phenomenal, not just for hiring but just for how Google think about or thought about people back when Laszlo was running HR. So four is the magic number. Most places in corporate America, probably for senior level roles, probably still around six. Anything beyond that is just a joke.

Mel : 44:55

It's a waste. Yeah, it's a time waste. Well, we'll link to that recommendation in the show notes because that's a great recommendation for folks. So we'll do that. For job seekers, I read your post today on LinkedIn about the post pandemic job market, so I'd love to give space to talk about what job seekers should know about this post pandemic job market and finding success and finding the role that's right for them. What advice would you give?

James : 45:21

Sure, I think what's really interesting that's happening right now is a perfect storm that is exacerbating conditions that have been prevailing for a while. What I mean by that is, in the talent marketplace there has always been a signal to noise issue in that a decade ago, a job posting or job ad might receive 100 applications and in every part of the enterprise in every geography that I've worked in, the numbers are always the same. In aggregate, of those 100 applications, roughly 25 of them will meet the minimum criteria for the job and 75 are just not qualified at all. And part of the recruiters job is to separate the signal from the noise right to find amongst those 100 applications the 25 that qualified, to speak to those 25 people and decide of those 25 who were the six or seven that most closely match the brief from the hiring manager and take those into the process At the highest level. That's, you know, a big chunk of the recruiters job for dealing with inbound applications.

James : 46:42

And then we'll move on to today, where we are living in the after effects of the massive structural changes to work and labor that the pandemic created, the macroeconomic tsunami that we've all been through and the significant strides forward in consumer facing tech, which, to be clear, all good things. As a job seeker today, as an applicant, today, you have so many powerful tools that enable you to turbo charge your application process, which is fantastic. What that means, though, is that a because of the macroeconomic situation, be because more people have had a taste for remote or hybrid work and want to pursue that, see, because we've got so much more visibility in the age of information. And D because of the powerful tools that are now in the hands of everyday job seekers, application volume has gone up 10 or 100 X. So a job oh yeah, you could get 100 applications could now get 1000 or 5000. And those ratios are still the same. Of those 1000 applicants, still only 250 people are going to be qualified in 750 and not, but a recruiter cannot speak to all 250.

James : 48:02

No way, and so it's the signal to noise issue has just gotten so much worse. And, yes, you can send out more applications and send out more curated applications and send out better applications, but your chances of the application being seen by the right person have diminished exponentially.

Mel : 48:21

And so, what can they do?

James : 48:23

to navigate.

Mel : 48:24

What? What can candidates do to kind of cut through the noise, especially if they feel you know pretty strongly that they they fit the profile. How can they cut through that noise? I see on LinkedIn all the time you see how many folks have applied for the job, which can be super intimidating. So how can you kind of put yourself ahead of the pack if you're qualified?

James : 48:47

So there's a few things. That number that you see yeah, it's not the number of applicants. The number that you see is the number of people that have hit apply, oh OK, which is different from the number of applicants that are inside the ATS.

James : 49:03

That's misleading yeah well, it's not misleading. Okay, that's the data that LinkedIn have which is valid. That's a number of people that did click apply, but I can tell you from sitting on the other side of the desk that the attrition from apply to applicant is massive. Okay, in that, in a volume environment, so you know companies that are hiring 10,000 people a year or more the average pull through is 16% and in one place I worked that may be a place that someone else on this the pull through was 1%. Oh, wow. So for every 100 people that click apply, only one applicant made it into the ATS, into the applicant tracking system, because the application journey was so cumbersome that 99 out of 100 people gave up. In most places, it's 16 out of every 100 that will come through.

Mel : 50:07

So you do not be intimidated by that number. If it's a high number, that's good to know.

James : 50:11

Do not be intimidated, because most people won't complete the application.

James : 50:14

Okay, and of all the people that do complete the application, only 25% of them are going to be qualified, but, that being said, it can still be hundreds or thousands of people that do all of that Right. So there is still a signal to noise issue. It's just not as bad as it appears on the surface to the everyday user, but I see both sides and it is worse than it was before, and recruiters have this deluge of applications to deal with. So just submitting your application is no longer enough, because if you just submit an application, it might never get seen. So you also need to try to figure out who is the recruiter at the company and get in touch with them, and who is the hiring manager and getting in touch with them, and ideally get a referral from somebody that already works there, because candidates that are referred by existing employees often go into a fast track processing lane and your application is more likely to be seen Not guaranteed to be seen, just more likely to be seen. So you have to go the extra mile.

Mel : 51:25

Yeah, at a minimum if you have a referral. Typically my experience in the past is when I worked in TA2, if it was a referral coming in, at a minimum we had at least a one-on-one screening interview with someone from talent acquisition to meet with that candidate, just as a bare minimum.

James : 51:41

In larger organizations? Sure, in smaller organizations maybe not.

Francesca : 51:46

And you can use LinkedIn to do all of this. You can be using LinkedIn to figure out who the recruiter is, figure out who the hiring manager is, send them an email. Linkedin is a great product, but LinkedIn is your place. Where you'd want to do this, yeah, 100%.

Mel : 52:00

What if the recruiter is not listed on the job rec on LinkedIn? What's a good way to identify who the recruiter may be or to get in touch? What can people do?

James : 52:11

Yeah, and by searching LinkedIn right for recruiters at Nike, for recruiters at Apple and, bear in mind, at large companies, there will be hundreds of recruiters.

James : 52:24

And so then you need to figure out, okay, and recruiters are normally obviously very active on LinkedIn.

James : 52:32

So once you find people that you think are going to be in the right area, then you need to figure out okay, this person's a recruiter at Apple, but do they recruit product managers or do they recruit marketing folks?

James : 52:44

You need to figure out what their area is, and you can usually see that by what they say on their profile, all the types of things that they post, and the closest you're going to be able to get as a normal user is figuring out the recruiter at the company in the broad job family that you're targeting, and then reach out to that recruiter and say, hey, I've applied for this role, and give them the unique reference number or whatever you get from the applicant tracking system, explain in three very short bullet points why you've applied, why you're a fit, and ask them to connect you with the right recruiter.

James : 53:16

If they're not, obviously, just make their lives easier. Now you might still not get a response, but you will stand more chance of getting a response. If you work in supply chain and you reach out to a supply chain recruiter, they're more likely to respond because they'll be able to see that you're qualified for the job that you've applied for. And if you're consistently doing this and consistently not hearing, then maybe it's time to ask yourself are you being honest with yourself and the types of roles that you're applying for?

Mel : 53:46

Yeah, that's great advice. Just don't keep repeating the same thing if you're starting to see a trend for yourself.

Francesca : 53:56

There's a lot of just burning questions around getting a job and telling the acquisition, and so I thought let's do a rapid round with you. You can answer yes, no or a one word answer. Are you ready to play?

James : 54:09

Yes, I'm going to really struggle with one more answer, but I'm going to try.

Francesca : 54:12

Okay, I believe in you. I believe in you. So, rapid round with James about getting a job. James, is it all who you know?

James : 54:22

No.

Francesca : 54:24

Should you put the green banner on in LinkedIn if you want to get a job?

James : 54:28

100%, and let me talk about that later.

Francesca : 54:30

Okay, should you do a cover letter? Do cover letters matter anymore? No, should you customize your resume for each role?

James : 54:38

No.

Francesca : 54:38

Thank you notes Do we write them or not?

James : 54:40

Yes.

Francesca : 54:42

Should you negotiate your offer?

James : 54:43

Yes.

Francesca : 54:46

Should the interview process last no longer than 60 days.

James : 54:51

Depends.

Francesca : 54:52

Should you quit your old job before starting your new job?

James : 54:56

Ideally not All right.

Francesca : 54:59

I want to go back to. Should you put the green banner on if you're looking at LinkedIn, the open to work banner? This is such a hot topic. Thoughts.

James : 55:09

There has been so much clickbait around this and it infuriates me.

James : 55:13

I actually wrote a piece and included quotes from the LinkedIn product managers that built the feature. Let me say unequivocally there are, in fact, two features. There is the open to work functionality, which most people don't know about, and then there is the open to work green banner, and they do slightly different things and, as a job seeker, you may want to do one or both of them. So, first of all, there's the open to work toggle, which, in your settings, you can indicate two recruiters that you are open to work, and you can also detail where you're open to work so both in your hometown or if you're open to relocation and the types of work full-time, contract and job titles that will be of interest to you. If you click that toggle, it is only visible to recruiters, and what all of the data from LinkedIn shows is that folks that do that typically see an uptick of 40% of in-mails from recruiters. That's huge, that's significant. There is no reason, if you're looking for work, why you shouldn't do that.

Francesca : 56:31

Even if you're curious, like, even if you're curious, you're like I don't know if I want to see at this gig, just put it on.

Mel : 56:35

Yeah, Put it on all the time, potentially just to have conversations.

James : 56:39

Yeah, why not Right? And LinkedIn say but do not guarantee that it's not visible to recruiters at your own company.

Mel : 56:50

That's good to know it's only visible to recruit.

James : 56:52

They can't guarantee 100% accuracy. And so what? Even if a recruiter does see that you're open to work like it's not, unless you work somewhere that's really evil, it's not going to come back on you.

Mel : 57:02

Yeah, good work environment. I mean, as a leader, I think everyone should always have their ear to the ground, right? Never know when your dream job might happen. So good work cultures, I think, encourage folks to always keep their ear. You hate to lose good talent, but you also shouldn't deter anyone from having those conversations if you're in a good workplace 100%.

James : 57:24

So that's the open to work feature.

James : 57:25

You should absolutely use that.

James : 57:26

The Green Banner, which has obviously had tons of click baity articles and what's really annoying is that most of the people that have an opinion about it have never worked in HR or recruiting and have no business talking about this Again.

James : 57:39

What the data from LinkedIn shows is that system wide, folks using the Green Banner get 20% more in-mails from the entire LinkedIn user base, so not just from recruiters, but from folks across LinkedIn, and for most users that is going to be a good thing because, even though the in-mail is not coming from a recruiter, the more connections you can make and the more you can bring in broad in your digital footprint and it might be from the hiring manager, it might be from someone that works with the hiring manager that knows that that person is looking for the type of employee that you are. It is a good thing to get more inbound outreach across LinkedIn, especially if we go back to what I said before about the signal to noise issue. If you can be more discoverable to either recruiters or people that can influence the hiring decision, that is a very good thing. So you should unequivocally, in my view, use one or both if you are looking for work.

Mel : 58:42

That's good advice. We'll link to your post on that because I, like you, I hate the clickbait around it or the shaming that, like the weird shaming that was going on around it. It's like don't listen to the noise Do your thing.

James : 58:54

The former Google recruiter who now runs a small business in Salt Lake. I wish we could just say for what it is he runs a small business in Salt Lake. Good for him. He's not the king of recruiting. Right Opinions are not valid Right, right.

Francesca : 59:10

Well, they can be really harmful too, because I think the thing is, I feel like we're going to see more and more upticks on layoffs. Quite honestly, it's just going to be more. There's a running thought right now, quite honestly, around you're one quarter away, potentially, from getting laid off. That's literally how business is operating right now. People will be looking for work more and more. I feel like we're going to be flipping more and more into gig-type work or trading jobs more and more. We have to get used to this conversation that people are going to be open to work and then working, open to work and then working. There's no room for shame in this discussion. It's a marketplace. At this point, 100%.

James : 59:51

Yeah, I'd go back to what I said earlier that, yes, we are increasingly in a world where careers are not for life of course they're not and increasingly moving to an environment where people have side hustles and portfolio careers, and that is all a great thing. But ideally, when you move to your next job, you're hopefully going to be there for two or three years right, maybe four, maybe five, if you're going to be spending the next three years 40 hours a week somewhere. Invest some time in doing your research, doing all your due diligence. Think about how much time you spend researching your vacation or maybe that's just me, but what is the hotel like? All of that stuff? You spend hours and hours, yet people spend no time at all on researching the place that they're going to spend all of this time. Do your due diligence. Reach out to folks at the company, ask to speak to people in the ERGs, read the review sites, make an informed decision and don't be afraid to walk away.

Francesca : 1:00:59

I love that. Sage advice, sage advice. James, thank you so much for joining us today. It has been a pleasure. We'd love to have you back to talk about more subjects around acquisition and talent acquisition, but thanks so much for your time.

James : 1:01:11

Thanks, you're welcome. Thanks for having me, yeah.

Francesca : 1:01:16

So now it's time for our segment called Roast and Toast, where we roast some companies or individuals that need some light roasting and some that need some great toasting because they're doing it and doing it so well. And we're going to start with the toast. Who are we toasting this week?

Mel : 1:01:33

I have two toasts One for candidates, candidates that ask the tough questions and do their homework during the interview process. So toast to you Organizations who streamline the process I'm talking no more than four interviews and those who have a high touch of candidate care and transparency. Toast to those folks.

Francesca : 1:01:58

Love it. Yeah, I think that idea quite honestly of doing your homework. It is so easy to get swayed by your dream company or companies that you think are going to be an amazing employer. But sometimes just because the company is really sexy doesn't mean it's the right company, the right role or the right team for you. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. So doing your homework Huge.

Mel : 1:02:22

Huge yeah. Sometimes it's glitter on a pile of poop, so check it out Indeed it is.

Francesca : 1:02:27

Indeed, it is. That's awesome. Well, and today I am roasting, actually, an article that I saw in Business Insider, which brought up some memories. Here it is. This is it came out this week Some Gen Z job seekers are bringing mom and dad to interviews. Yeah, this is just a hard pass, people and, by the way, gen Z, not the only generation that has been doing that right.

Mel : 1:02:53

It is not just you, I know. Back in the early 2000s, when I was working in TA, I had a dad call me up asking for swag from the law firm I was at because his son was interviewing and he thought, well, I just want to represent like you do for colleges. I'm like not the same thing.

Francesca : 1:03:13

And I just was like candidates trust yourself.

Mel : 1:03:16

You got this you got this.

Francesca : 1:03:18

Yeah, that's my thing. This is not just a Gen Z thing. This is actually going on. It melts here very good for about 10 years a long time. We are seeing an uptick in it. Friends, don't bring mom and dad into the interview process. They're not going to be there with you for work. Don't bring them into the interview process. It's not a good look. It's only a good look when it's bring your mom and dad to work day. Yeah, yeah. That's the only time. That's the only time.

Francesca : 1:03:43

So, yeah, a light roast of bringing the parental units into the interview process.

James : 1:03:47

Just don't do it.

Francesca : 1:03:49

You want to bring them on a date. You want to bring them on an interview, and if you need me to explain that to your parents, have them call me. There you go, follow us, music Mel. How about that interview with James about getting the right job?

Mel : 1:04:04

Yeah, I mean, look, James is a huge expert in this space. He knows his stuff. I think if listeners walk away and implement just one thing that he shared, they're going to find different success in finding not just a job but their right job for them. So just loved it. So thankful he was able to join us and to share these tips with folks. How about you? Yeah, absolutely.

Francesca : 1:04:28

It kind of reaffirms my belief in why we even started the pod is because we really wanted to open the hood on how this stuff works and how you can actually use this knowledge to your benefit. So stoked to have him with us. Friends. Really thanks so much for joining us today. We're stoked to be back next week with New Week, new Headlines. Mel and I have been together this whole week planning out the year of the pod, and so we're stoked to be bringing not only New Week, new Headlines every week, but really rich topics like the one we brought today. Really cool guests like the one we brought today. Thanks so much for joining us. Like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. If it moves, you come over and say hi on Instagram, the tiktaks or LinkedIn, hit us up on yourworkfriends.com and if you found this episode helpful, please share with your work friends All right, take care, friend.

Mel : 1:05:20

Bye, friend, Bye friend. Also thanks for staying with us today.

Career Pivot: Escaping Corporate

Your Work Friends Podcast: Escaping Corporate with Brett Trainor

Burned out, boxed in, and dreaming of a way out? You’re not alone. In this episode, we’re breaking down exactly how to exit corporate life without blowing up your life. Whether you're plotting a pivot or planning a full escape, this one's your blueprint.

Learn the art of the entrepreneurial leap with Brett Trainor, The Corporate Escapee, and embrace the power of fractional/freelance work that fits into the life you want to have. In this episode, we tackle: 

• What's a Corporate Escapee?

• Who Should Escape? Who Shouldn't?

• The Market for Fractional / Freelance, etc

• The Money in Fractional / Freelance

• Planning Your Pivot out of Corporate

• The First Three Steps You Need to Take 

• And the Biggest Piece of Advice to Make the Leap 

Listen or watch the full episode here

---

Brett: 0:00

seeing the number of solar businesses with seven figures, folks think they need to build the next Google or Microsoft. Like if I leave corporate I've got to start a company. Like not anymore.

Mel: 0:25

Well, hey, friends, this is your work. Friends, we're two HR leaders who have no filter, and we're here to expose all of the stuff that you need to know about work. I'm Mel, I'm Francesca, and with us today is Brett Schreiner, who is the founder of the corporate Escapy. You can find him on LinkedIn. He has an awesome podcast. He also just launched a Slack community. That's pretty rad. I just joined that community myself, and he's from a fun town called Wheaton who has a annual fair called the cream of wheat, in which just made my day last week when I heard this news. So, brett, welcome to the pod.

Brett: 1:08

No, it's great to be here. I'm thrilled that you asked me to come on and looking forward to the discussion. And yes, the cream of Wheaton. Never thought of it as a big event here, but it is kind of clever.

Francesca : 1:18

And they don't serve cream of wheat at cream of Wheaton, which I feel like is a miss, it's a sponsor miss, for sure, right, and they're using the name for it.

Brett: 1:26

Yeah, so funny.

Francesca : 1:27

The cocoa wheat still out there. If you grew up in the Chicago Land area, there used to be the show called the. Bozo show and it was sponsored by Cocoa Weets. You remember Bozo?

Brett: 1:35

I remember Cocoa Weets. Yeah, we went down memory lane that too long ago with some of those cereals that are no longer available, but they should bring them back. I know some people are bringing back those retro brands yeah. They went out of business or bankrupt, but the name still means a lot, so I think we're starting to see more of that.

Mel: 1:53

I just bought Captain Crunch Crunch Berries a couple of weeks ago for the first time in 15 years. Scrape the hell out of the top of my mouth, but it was delicious. It was delicious and worth it.

Brett: 2:04

I'm more of a peanut butter crunch, but I do like the crunch berries. Yeah, remember the old like Count Chocula in Franklin.

Mel: 2:11

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Brett: 2:12

Boo-Berry. Was Boo-Berry a seasonal or was that a? It was at a ongoing.

Mel: 2:18

I think it's seasonal right Boo-Berry with the ghosts.

Brett: 2:21

Yeah, so good.

Francesca : 2:23

So good it's so funny.

Mel: 2:25

Oh, look at on top of that. How do you, how do we get this? Yeah Well, brett, the corporate escapee. I love your mission, which is to help 10,000 corporate Gen Xers escape the nine to five. Tell us more about it. What's the corporate escapee?

Brett: 2:42

Yeah, it was funny because I got to that point about four, four and a half years ago after a 30-year career, mostly corporate, a couple of stints out to the entrepreneurial world and back into corporate, ended it with a year and a half running management consulting Cause that's what you should do at the end of a corporate career is go into traditional management consulting but just realized that I was just done right. It wasn't like where is this going? What am I going to be doing? Right, we don't have pensions. I shouldn't say we, the collective, we just didn't. The right corporate didn't offer pensions. So am I just going to be fighting this treadmill for the next 10 to 15 years or is there something better? And, like I said four and a half years ago, didn't have a plan High inside. I highly encourage folks if you're leaving, have a plan. Don't have to, but it makes the transition easier. And then the last year really there's got to be more of me out there, right?

Brett: 3:34

Cause for the first two years 95% of what I was doing was the fractional work, did some consulting in the B2B space, I was by myself, really didn't tell anybody that I was doing it, and then slowly gain momentum, caught up with some different folks and I'm like, yeah, the corporate escape, be that's, it's more than just work, it's the lifestyle.

Brett: 3:55

And then I just started playing with it. I decided just to have some fun, to get on Tik Tok and test cause. I'm like short attention span at 60 seconds, 90 second, and all of a sudden that took off, no idea why. But what it reaffirmed was that there is a lot of people. I think I've got like 20,000 followers on Tik Tok and to a person that I talked to it's like, yeah, I didn't know I was stuck, I didn't know there was other folks, but man, it really resonates with me. So I decided to make that more my personal mission to say if anybody's out there that wants to get out, there is opportunity, there's a path forward, there's tools, et cetera. So, even though it's been around for probably about a year I was in the last two to three months it's really found its footing.

Mel: 4:41

I will admit I found you on Tik Tok. I am a recent corporate escapee and I immediately was like, yes, let's connect on LinkedIn, join your Slack community, because I think what's really appealing for me to what you're doing is the community that you're building around. It is someone who's new to trying it out, and I think that community is so important just to help you succeed right Lessons learned, sharing. So I really love what you're building over there. Who is this for? Who is this not for?

Brett: 5:12

Yeah, good question. I say I tell everybody that if you've got 20 to 30 years of experience and if somebody's paying you to do a job, you can do it right. The can and should are two different things. I think who it's not for is if you're really risk adverse we're not talking super risky ventures, you're not putting your family's savings into a new business or something like that but what corporate does give you assuming you don't get laid off is a steady paycheck and they pay some form of your benefits, and so there's a floor in corporate that you always know you're going to have that paycheck. But with freelance, fractional what I call the corporate escapee the ceiling is much higher, the utility is much higher, but there could be lows. Right, you could have a zero month where you're not bringing any revenue in, and you have to be comfortable with that and knowing that it's not going to stay that way, but it's not for everybody.

Brett: 6:06

The other thing that I found is important is you have to be accountable to yourself.

Brett: 6:11

I really took that for granted as I transitioned from corporate into the solo space was I own the priorities, I own my schedule and for the longest time I found myself just cramming more work into the day, but I really wasn't getting stuff done until I flipped and scheduled and put some structure into my day. But yeah, if you're not accountable to yourself and you like somebody else's direction, then this may not be for you Everybody else. I think you want more flexibility, freedom, control, opportunity than absolutely you can. I had probably 120 conversations with TikTokers, genxers that have came in and more for my learning to say what else can I do or what can we do to support what I was finding is the nichiest of niches in corporate. There's still businesses that are looking for that help. I call them the SME. Small and mid-sized businesses, startups, nonprofits are looking for that type of help. If you've got experience and somebody's paying you to do a job, there's an opportunity to help free yourself from that task.

Mel: 7:16

What do you think is for folks who are successful? When they do this, do they have a specific mindset, skill set that stands out to you?

Brett: 7:24

I think, open mind, because one thing in corporate it just teaches you to go follow the rules, don't rock the boat. Incremental improvements are good and you just have to have more of an open mind. We use the cliche of Gen X, but it's released back into the wild. We grew up without the rules and the restrictions and then 20 to 30 years in the box of corporate. You have to go back and be okay with experimenting and asking. We talk about can and should and it's will A lot of people. I can do that, I can go, so I do have that experience. I can run this project, I can work for it, but will you do it? It's the people that actually take action are the ones that are successful. I know I mostly work with Gen X, but I've had some 20-somethings that are super curious about how do I do this. I said well, look, if you get your job, you do this. What is the problem that you're solving for this company? There's probably a bunch of smaller companies that have this problem. You can just restructure it. 20 minutes later he's like okay, I got this. Thanks, see you.

Brett: 8:25

He was going to go take action when I think, if we've been around longer, we like to over engineer it, we like to overthink it and we're trying to look for the perfect plan. I'm guilty. One of my colleagues in Mansion Consultant used to tell me Brett done is better than perfect. That was a harder thing for me to transition from. Just go do it, it's okay. If this little experiment doesn't work, you try something else. And it's going to be okay Because at the end of the day, if it doesn't work, you can go back and find your corporate job. If it's not for you but I encourage anybody that's thinking about it just give it a 100 percent and see. If it doesn't work, don't have acid and then, if it doesn't work, go out. Wasn't for me. If you're going to do that, then maybe it's not for you anyway.

Mel: 9:08

If this is your new business, you treat it like a business. Otherwise, it's a hobby. It's just a hobby.

Francesca : 9:15

There's something suffering about going back to thinking about your feralness as a kid or thinking about the world of opportunity that you get as a child. I remember being in college and thinking, wow, anything's possible, anything could happen, and I think you get that when you're creating your own space. I'm wondering if you're seeing that in the landscape now. What is the market for folks that want to do freelance fractional? Do you see it's picking up, it's growing, it's depleted. What do you think?

Brett: 9:45

Yeah, I absolutely think it's picking up, because that's one of the concerns I hear from folks is it's saturated. I'm like we're the farthest thing from saturated when you think about the number of small businesses that are out there and the help that they need. I think we're in the early stages of this. And what kind of opened my eyes is I was on a podcast called the Human Cloud and John and Matthew do a lot of work in freelancing at the enterprise. I have more focus on the small business and part of our conversation was me flipping out of him and asking well, why are you seeing this rise in freelance? And what he told me was we haven't seen. Even three years ago there wasn't somebody with your experience or expertise that was open to fractional work for small businesses, so small businesses have never had access. You two are a perfect example of that as well. If a small business was looking to hire you, they couldn't afford you, and so what do they do? They have to hire somebody junior just to take a chance on somebody new or promote somebody within. Not all bad choices, but if you really need help and your org's growing, this is a perfect solution. It's the rare, perfect, perfect or win-win, especially with fractional. There's other ways you can slice it, but fractional is easiest transition, I think. And so what fractional is? Basically? It's a day per week per client and most of the time it's focused on strategy work, not a lot of the tactical and the doing stuff, because it would be hard to do that one day a week. But what you will be able to do is save that business a third of the cost. If they're going to hire a full-time equivalent for that HR lead, they couldn't afford it, but with you, for a third of the cost, they can. Now they can start to build a team with a couple of other fractionals. That gives them expertise that they couldn't have otherwise had.

Brett: 11:33

And the other last piece that I encourage people to think about the business owner is it minimizes risk. If you make a higher, it's an 18 month mistake if you get it wrong. And if you're hiring a type of role you've never hired before, that's hard. And if you can bring somebody in, that's fractional. Maybe it's a three month to start, but then it's month to month and a lot of what the fractionals will do is work with that business to transition out. If they're ready for a full-time, they can help you find that full-time person.

Brett: 12:02

So I think where the industry or where the overall market's got to catch up is fractional, still in relatively new term. But when you explain it to the business owner, they're like yeah, I get it and we're starting now to actually see hey, we are actually looking for fractional CFO for this role. So you won't find it in LinkedIn job postings yet. But it's not like this is just one-sided, where it benefits the escapees because they can charge a premium for what they do. It gives them more flexibility. But the businesses are actually going to benefit from this as well.

Francesca : 12:35

Yeah, you see a lot of movement in organizations trying to outsource works or work that is not core to their competence, because they don't want to be in that business, and this is one of the ways I think that they could do that either through fractional or contract full outsource. It does seem like we're at this wave of this coming right. Business is understanding the benefit of not holding on to full-time labor because that's so expensive. It's expensive for turnover too if they don't work out and also people wanting a different lifestyle. Work to means different things and still get paid and paid well. Do you feel like in five years this is going to just get bigger, or do you feel like it's going to go the other way? My gut is it's?

Francesca : 13:17

going to get nuts.

Brett: 13:18

It's going to get nuts. I think Every last dollar I had it's going in this direction. Just because a couple of reasons, and think about it from when you were in corporate, what percentage of your week was actually spent on the job that they brought you in to do? 30%.

Mel: 13:34

It's really.

Brett: 13:35

Maybe at a high end. So you're paying 60% of overhead from the business perspective and that's where fractional is there. They're super intentional about using you only for what you're good at, because they don't want you on unnecessary meetings. It just doesn't make sense. So I think just economically it's going to make sense and that's why I think that the small and mid-sized can really take advantage of this, because the bigger orgs they're still trying to figure out sales and marketing alignment. How do we go? Digital Things they probably should have figured out 15 years ago they're still struggling with. So how do they incorporate a more flexible workforce is going to be hard. I think certain organizations or operating units within bigger companies are starting to figure out how to do it, but for the most part it's not there.

Brett: 14:19

I've used a couple of analogies that help people see it. The one is think about it as if you're making a major movie Hopefully it's a blockbuster but you got hair, you got makeup, you got actors, you got film. You got all these different, mostly small entities that come together for 12 to 18 months, build this thing. They go away and this group may work with each other here and they may work over there. And then the other one that's similar to that, if you remember the movie Ocean's Eleven.

Brett: 14:46

George Clooney wanted to rob the casino. What did he do? He needed a make disguise artist, he needed a bomb guy, he needed X-Wines. All specialists that come together, get paid for what they do, drive towards an outcome and then go back to their separate ways. I just think the Industrial Revolution pushed us into offices. There was value in having people side by side because everybody was doing the same job. You can learn now All that side by side stuff is going to be automated, and what are you actually learning? When we did answer Francesca, your question, I think it's fundamentally going to change it and it just depends on how quick. I think we're in the early stages, so it's going to be fascinating to see where this goes.

Francesca : 15:28

That's a thing for employees. I've been hearing from a lot of people that they feel they're stuck in organizations, they're at a manager plus level and they're like I thought I was being brought in for my expertise, but I'm not being listened to sometimes, and or to your very good point the majority of their day is spent on shit that is absolutely not even relevant to their job, and there's something so beautiful about having an agreement that you're being brought in for your skill set, you're being paid for your skill set and all the other minutia goes away. So from a business, this makes sense. From an employee or from someone that this is their craft, this can be a really beautiful way to work too, because you're actually getting paid for your expertise.

Francesca : 16:09

Yeah, and you can do it where you want right?

Brett: 16:12

Yeah, that's what I'm watching. These return to office mandates. I'm like you got to be kidding me. You've been in the workforce for 30 years and this is the way I love your viewpoint on this. We just talked about it, yeah.

Mel: 16:23

Yeah, yeah, feelings. We agree with you wholeheartedly. You hire adults. These are experts You're hiring to come into your organization, but you don't trust them to get the job done, and that's a larger issue we think is happening.

Brett: 16:38

If you don't trust them, they're not going to work any harder in the office and you can argue they're more inefficient at the office. I grew up in it, so I saw the value at times when having colleagues and working. I just think that those days are gone.

Francesca : 16:51

They're gone, they're gone. It's interesting because there's these decision makers that are making really regressive decisions, like we're just going to keep going back, we're going to keep going back, and it's like that ship has sailed and I think the people that are willing to think about a new way will win.

Brett: 17:06

And as long as we're on this, culture is something I've been thinking about from a pure execution standpoint, from a company, and I think culture matters for the ownership group. This is what the vision, this is the thing we want to create. And once you get below a certain level, everybody's just doing it for the paycheck. And you can tell me there's companies that believe in the mission, which I'm 100% sure there are, but I'm saying 80% of the companies, 80% of the workers, and they just want to be paid fairly, treated with some flexibility, right, and then they'll do a good job. I don't want to say culture is overrated, because it's not, but don't think the 10,000 employees are all going to buy into your culture. You're never going to get that, especially with return to office man and all that other stuff. But if you plug in specialists for a lot of these key roles that just love to do this job they like you and the company you're going to get a lot further than trying to force people into a box again.

Francesca : 18:00

My whole thing on companies right now is they are not everybody, but most of them are misrepresenting themselves in terms of what they're offering from an employee experience perspective, because a lot of organizations are we're a great place to work, we're a great place to work for mothers, we're a great diversity, equity, inclusion, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We have all of these benefits, we care about mental health, we care about all this stuff, and the actual working experience day to day doesn't match the brand that they've been sold, and so there's this sense of betrayal, there's this sense of like. What the fuck you know? Excuse my French, yeah.

Brett: 18:37

I get it.

Francesca : 18:38

I'm going to get it out. To me, one of the best relationships you can get into in anything romantic friend, parent, job is when it's honest. Yeah, contracts are honest. Yeah, my dogs are honest. You know what you're gonna get. Oh, I love your point of view on this. I think a lot of employees feel like I thought I was signing up for something completely different. Then what I've been given.

Brett: 19:01

Yeah, the one-way street.

Mel: 19:04

Yeah, we're hearing that from a lot of folks who independently reach out to us to share, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, francesca, because culture is the responsibility of the organization, team and individual.

Mel: 19:15

But it takes all three of those elements for it to be effective throughout. But if at each of those levels you don't have everyone bought into your good point, brett, there there comes a point sometimes when an organization Potentially is just too large where they're not going to be able to manage all of the micro cultures that have now popped up. It's like having a core set of values and making sure that Everyone operates within that core set of values and how they work is so critically important. But if they're not really paying attention to that or have expectations around that or build performance management around those expectations and they're really measuring it, then the culture and the micro cultures get out of control. Into Francesca's point yeah, there's a sense of betrayal from people who were sold hey, this was a great working environment from others. But you know, I joined this team and my direct leader won't let me leave early to go watch my kids soccer game Then that's not a great organization for that mom, but maybe a mom on another team is getting the opportunity to do that.

Mel: 20:18

But, it all depends on your direct team. Yeah, what's?

Brett: 20:21

interesting when I was starting to have these conversations is the the relationship between, as a corporate escapee or an employee employees. Definitely, it's mostly command and control some companies to give you some flexibility. But I heard that command and control. I talked to a executive recruiter friend of mine who told me that there was a CEO, they were hiring a chief people officer and the board was basically dictating who he was gonna hire. I'm like, so he's being micro managed at the highest. And this wasn't a family-owned company. This was a pretty good-sized business and when I started to think through this, this is why I think fractional can start to even that playing field.

Brett: 21:01

So the way I think the old days of freelancer is really transactional Okay, we're hiring you to do this job, we'll pay you this. We both agree, done, done. Where fractional is more of a partnership right, I'm part of that organization just on a part-time basis. I've got to be on the same page as the owner of the sea level. That's bringing me into that organization. We've decided together what's gonna work. Right, you can't tell me what to do all the time because, one, that's not why you brought me in, but two, that's not the way our relationship is. So you got like commanding controls and employee Partner is a fractional, transactional, is freelance and there's some service Businesses in there that are definitely more transactional. But at least give the employee a leg up.

Brett: 21:42

The other thing I encourage folks to think about even if you're staying in corporate, think of it as you are a still the CEO of your own company, company of one, and your product is your expertise, and what this company is paying you to do that job is salary, benefits and the requirement of you being on site three days, five days, one day, just everything that's involved. And would you run your business that way? If this is the way the customer, maybe you would and you're willing to trade off because this is what you need, but for me, I forever I just take it All right, this is what you're paying me, this is what I get, right, this is the vacation and all those things, and just accepted it, versus thinking if I treated this as this was my company and this is my skill, I probably would have done things differently, maybe not have had as many options, but too often I think we're just way too reactive and not as intentional with it.

Francesca : 22:29

I think a lot of people think that that's the only way. I grew up thinking you're gonna go to college, you're gonna go to grad school, you're gonna get a job at Accenture and you're gonna keep on did it, did it did and this is. This is the way, this is the path, and it's not the same thing.

Brett: 22:41

It's the right thing. Right. My plan was I was the first one in my family they actually went to college, so business.

Mel: 22:48

I do.

Brett: 22:49

That was, and so my goal before I started was game warden in Wisconsin. That sounds awesome, yeah. Then, 30 years later, I'm like what the hell happened? You get into that. Somebody called it a treadmill and I think it's the perfect thing. Somebody said that salaries the drug that keeps you going. It's that next level. I just get promoted to that next position. Then I'll end up with enough money to do this. But it's never really enough, and what's happened this last year Is the fear factor against him. Yeah, lay it off. What are you gonna do? There's nothing out there, and they scare you into Staying into a job longer than maybe that you would want to, and times are changing, which is so exciting. There's enough signs that we're moving in the right direction.

Mel: 23:40

I think so. I think the sign of how many folks and younger folks who are looking at exploring this space too and not just going into corporate. There's a real desire, I think, for people to own their time and how they spend it and who they spend it with. And I think that's so beautiful about this type of work too, because you have a bit more autonomy around what you're working on, who you're working with, when, after COVID, I will say my personal experience was really reflecting on how do I want to spend my time and I tell Francesca this all the time I went to work where there's a three-legged stool of Respect, relationships and meaningful work. So in everything I do, that's what I want to do and that that's appealing to me about your messaging and going out on your own, and it seems possible.

Brett: 24:28

It's true, an author, steve Glovesky, australian guy wrote time rich and he's like look, you can always earn more money, but you can never earn time back.

Brett: 24:36

I'm like so true and you think about our corporate careers. We built our lives around those jobs, whatever it was right vacation, school Workouts. You had to get up at 6 am If you wanted to go to the gym. A little more flexibility now, but not Completely so. Our lives really revolved around whatever corporate job that we were doing and not the other way around, which, again, we're gonna look back in 50 years. You know what the heck, yeah right.

Francesca : 25:22

We talk about the money for a second, because I think this might be one of the things that People get nervous about when they think about this. Do you find in general, that the money is like net-net it's better, it's worse. I think it's better.

Brett: 25:34

You've got the risk, because when I left, it was all about the money. What had happened to me was, as a management consulting firm, I saw they were billing me out as, and I saw what I was taking home about that billable rate. I'm like this is crazy. What it did teach me is what my market rate was, and that's one thing I think we all do is undervalue what we have and what we do. Where it's definitely going and I can speak from the fractional and from the service side, because when I say fractional, it's again that on average it's a day per week, probably no more than 10 hours a week, no more than two hours per day, depending on how you spread out per client and the billable range that you can charge is between six and twelve thousand dollars per month and and what I see more consistently is between seven and ten.

Brett: 26:21

Now it's a bigger company that you're doing some work for. Maybe it's a couple more hours. It's on the higher end, so definitely outliers. In either way, this is for sales leaders, marketing leaders, customer success folks, hr Recruiting, anything that needs a leadership or strategy component within those companies. You can transition that to fractional, and this isn't just my experience. You can like voyage, or you, which works with exclusively fractionals and fractionally. United with Karina she's got six thousand fractionals in there and they just had a data Study that came out that showed wages or the hourly rate Amongst different levels of skills and what role on the organization, and it was consistent. If it's more of a less strategic role, you're gonna be down in the $150 per hour or $100 per hour.

Brett: 27:10

One rule of thumb that I think if people at home want to do the math is whatever your corporate salary is, chop off the three zeros and that's what your hourly rate. And if you do the math backwards which I'm not a fan of the public math so if you're making a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in corporate, think about it is about a hundred and fifty dollars per hour. You know times that by ten hours you know per week, per client, and it adds up to being able to replace your income with two to three Clients and only working two to three days per week, and that's ideal. That's after you get running. If you don't leave corporate, that instantly happens, but it's definitely more. I wouldn't call it an industry standard yet, but it's definitely becoming accepted. And the other data point I'll share is one of the companies that I was a chief Revenue officer for. They were less than three million in annual revenue and they were still paying in that range, so it's even a smaller company is willing because they need to invest.

Francesca : 28:07

Right, and so if you do worth it, yeah.

Brett: 28:10

So that's what I'm saying, and when people say it's a tree, I'm like do you how many companies that are between two, five ten million dollars that could use your skill set for 12 to 18 months as they figure it out? The other beauty of this is you can start to think about your expertise as a service. I know we're going to level two now, but I think there's that's where I encourage folks at your new CRM specialist, maybe they're not gonna bring you on as a fractional CRM Person, but what do these small businesses need that you do really well that you could do for three thousand dollars a month. They're five thousand dollars a month. One their entire CRM, do whatever it is.

Brett: 28:48

And the other example I'll use from the design sites there's a graphic designer named Brett, his company's design join. He's been super open about publishing his track record. The last year he did two million dollars as a solo company. He does all his own design works. He charges brands, I think between 5k and 7k per month. I think the rule is you can only do one design at a time. You can't send him six design requests at once. Maybe do the math backwards of how many customers he needs he can manage that. He said to get overwhelming at that level but like well, if you don't want to do two million one, bring somebody in which he didn't want to do. We'll just reduce the number of clients you have. So that's why I said, if the rules don't exist, if you can solve a problem and add value to a customer, there's a way that you can structure that that it's gonna make sense for you and for the business.

Francesca : 29:39

I mean in two million dollars a year, is that's kind of livable?

Mel: 29:47

Right in your recent newsletter. I loved the template that you shared around what's problem Are you solving for people? What skills are you bringing to solve that problem? We'll link to that because I think it's super valuable. I'd love to talk about if you're in corporate. Today we hear from a lot of folks in high-pressure industries so think law firms, the finance world's, banking, all of that who are Looking to pivot. For folks who are in these intense industries, they're also highly regulated so you might not be able to start a side gig because it could be seen as sort of competing priorities with what you're doing. What do you recommend for them to be able to make space to plan for this kind of pivot?

Brett: 30:31

Yeah, it's a good question. It's this highly regulated, maybe a bigger issue. There's still gonna be a way around it. It's still gonna come back to what the problem that you solve you solve it for and even if you solve it for free on the side, for a few folks, you can test the idea. Target maybe a different industry.

Brett: 30:49

Because that's one thing I've found is, unless you're specific in, like a healthcare technology or whatever it is that doesn't translate, then you may be a little trickier and you may just have to get yourself set up, build some runway and say, alright, I'm going all in, I see the, the future of this. But short of that, there's no reason why you can't start to have these conversations and do some mini engagements with folks. Right, everything that we're building to go solo. You can build on the side and then just start to have the Conversations one off with people and then you get a sense of is this really a need to solve problem? Is this a nice to solve problem? Hopefully it's really the need to solve that the business has. So I think there's date ways around and that's the number of the folks I'm actually working with and I'm testing a new Offering 60 days, your first customer and it originally had the grandiose plans of you know, end to end of all the things that you should Be thinking about.

Brett: 31:46

What I found was all these folks are really smart and don't necessarily need all the pieces, but when you get down into what is the specific offering look like who is the target customer cut through all the noise because we all like To chase the shiny objects and go too many. But let's pick one path. What's the problem? What is it you want to solve and work on and then build the offer into that? Most of the people I'm working with they're still Incorporate, so it can't be just broadcast to your network that you're open to fractional and contract work. It's not gonna work. So we're gonna have to be a little more targeted with some of the outreach.

Brett: 32:20

But it's absolutely possible I think that's what we talk ourselves into that when nobody's gonna want this or we have to have a full-on marketing plan. I'm like the end of the day, for us to be successful and I say most, if you have ten customers that you're not gonna be able to service ten. So you think about it really to read if you're thinking about replacing that income and still working less. Two to three customers is all you need. That's not very many. That's super targeted and through relationships Referability of John arms talks about all the time and then just solving that problem. You got to Break the ice with the first one, but then it's much more manageable even than it was five years ago when you tried to. You almost Did have to have a marketing plan.

Mel: 33:00

It's just starting the conversation with folks and offering Advice for free to build those relationships. I've also seen this done, where folks start to have the conversation with their employer and they've turned that former employer to a client Once they've transitioned into Freelance. Have you ever seen that happen with any of your I know people have done it.

Brett: 33:20

I wouldn't be comfortable going to my most really recent employer. But if you were like me and worked for three or four or five other companies, maybe there's some folks in the past that know you, the work that you do, and need some additional help to get that going. You can be super targeted with LinkedIn and I'll give you just an example. When the corporate escapee took off, I didn't want to forget about the work that I was doing with the small business, so these corporate escapee work. So everything you see on my social and LinkedIn now is mostly the escapee stuff. But I did some targeted outreach to some clients saying, hey, I've got this full network of Estapies now misses or? Mr Business owner, are you still stuck in your traditional Recruiting ways? Are you only looking at a full-time equivalent? Are you open to ideas around flexible staffing and fractional those types of things? And I was just sending that out to Not direct connections but second-degree connections.

Mel: 34:17

Yeah.

Brett: 34:17

I probably an 80% connection Acceptance rate. Most of them would say, now, that's not my business because I was targeting too small. Then I went up the next level 10 to 25 employees and Most people accept the connection or say no, I'm not in that. But a handful are now saying, yeah, I'm interested in learning more. We're just about to that point. Again, I'm not selling anything on those things, but I've got three or four leads that I'm working. If I was still employed, they'd have no idea that I'm even talking to these companies Can't, don't do anything illegal, but you know they can't keep you from right, trying to to grow you.

Brett: 34:53

Whatever you want to do on your own, you're free time and your own time and what you want to do the future so. So the point is there's ways you can start to Identify customers, even if you're linked in. It says I'm fully employed, just have to be a creative sometimes just building relationships as key.

Mel: 35:10

Yeah, like my name.

Brett: 35:13

That's what I've found with this community. Everybody is super helpful and maybe Great myself.

Brett: 35:19

But yeah, again, everybody realizes we're breaking the mold in corporate. Where it was every person for themselves, it was the political if either be eaten and all that. We're here. Everybody's more than willing to help. And again back to the community. That's really what I want out of this group is to say, hey, this I came across an opportunity. Doesn't make sense for me, but I know somebody that was an IT that this would be a good fit for and we just start referring each other into Opportunities. All of our networks are big or big enough for us to figure out what we need to have. I've never been more optimistic about a path then, if you would ask me this three years ago. I think you get work really hard and figure it out, but now we can eliminate some of those blockers there that the traditional learning curves.

Mel: 36:02

I love your slack community. I'll keep plugging it because being a new Corporate escape me myself joining that slack community. I think it's been an invaluable experience because everyone's just wanting to help each other, learn from one another, help each other grow, and I think that's the beauty in this is that Community piece and you're sort of indirectly creating your own quote-unquote corporate culture through that community Culture of just helpers, people who are interested in helping organizations and helping each other, and it's really nice. I'm so glad you're here. I love you too. I'll see you next time. Folks don't talk about this often, but it's hard to get your first client. But how was it having to fire your first client?

Brett: 37:00

It's usually mutual. Usually If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Usually you get a sense in the first three, six months of it's going to work. And I was working with a client doing some sales but really what they needed was marketing support, some branding. They had a really good tool, really strong, competitive product, but nobody knew them. Less than 3% of the industry knew who they were and I basically said, look, take the money that you're paying me and go invest in a marketing and, more specifically, a product marketer. That's really going to help, because their entire business was contingent upon. If this one product hit the growth targets, you can understand the product from the customer research all the way to how do you position it and move it into the marketplace. Spend your money there, because it's going to be much better than me trying to help you figure out how to cold call our way to that business. And so we agreed to move on just because it didn't provide the right fit. You get a sense of the cultural fits going to be there.

Brett: 37:58

But the way I like to structure my engagement is the first ones a. Don't call it a get to know you, but as we're having a conversation and we're saying, hey, this is what I think my organization needs and I'm saying I think this is what I can deliver. Until you actually get involved into the business and know what you have, it's hard to know, so I always liked the 30 or 60 day. Let's validate everything that we thought we knew and then build the roadmap from there. Even if you're fractional, that's really what you're doing is helping them build the strategy and go from there. So I always build an out after that paid assessment period I hate that term, but I don't know a better way of a paid validation. Right, those are going to be value. We'll build the roadmap and at that point we'll know if I'm the right fit for what your business needs and if not, then we can find somebody else to go in there.

Mel: 38:48

Love the concept of a paid assessment time when everyone gets to test it out and see if you're still in alignment after that 60 day is really nice actually.

Brett: 38:56

There's a few businesses, like one guy that was working on a corporate development and really the work that he needed to do it's a six month right to do the due diligence, so he can't do that one month a month, but almost all of them you absolutely could do a trial one month, two months three months just to make sure everybody's happy. And again it takes the risk out of the business zone. It's an easier sell at that point too.

Francesca : 39:20

It's actually beneficial, Like yeah.

Mel: 39:22

Where there's an out.

Francesca : 39:41

What are the things that you want to avoid when you're getting into this space that you don't need?

Brett: 39:46

Yeah, that's a really good point. I see less of the scammy, right, they're there, right, but I think, yeah, we over complicate what we're doing and you don't need a hundred tools. The thing that I found that would have been helpful would have been how do I reduce the learning curve? Because everything I did was the first time it was on my own. There was nobody to share what was going on, and that's kind of the way I've approached that with TikTok and the newsletter. I'll tell you everything I know you know for free. And then if there's still stuff that you want help with, then fine, and that's the way that I approached with other folks as well.

Brett: 40:23

That said, hey, I really need some help, like, I've got somebody helping me on the community Never done a community. I've got an escapee that does it for me to help eliminate some of those big potholes that I don't need to hit. And so I think that's the biggest thing is don't let somebody sell you on. There is no secret sauce. If you do this one thing, you'll get 10 customers. No, it just doesn't work like that. I think it's the fundamentals. The basics. It's everything you already know, but people will tell you you have to do more than what you know, and that's just just not the case.

Francesca : 40:55

You're talking to somebody the other day and they're like I don't even know how to get started. I'm here, I know I hate my job, I'm in the muck, have the talking heads like this is not my beautiful house, this is not my beautiful life. On repeat, right. What are the first? Like two to three things you just need to do.

Brett: 41:11

Yeah, if you would have asked me two years ago, I wouldn't have necessarily thought of this. But it's what do you really want, right when?

Francesca : 41:20

Best question ever. Best question ever.

Brett: 41:22

It's hard to answer and it might changes, but I've gotten much more settled into it because, if you can answer, that is your number one goal just to replace your double your income Cause that's going to send you down a path of doing X, y or Z. But if it's, hey, if I can just supplement my income or get 50% of it and it. But I only want to work one day or two days. I want to be able to do it from the beaches of Florida in the winter and on a lake somewhere in the summer and really think through what is it you want from this next phase. And there's no wrong answer. But having that answer makes it easier to figure out. What are the next steps that you do to drive that business Cause. Again, if you want to build the design joy with the two million revenue, you're going to have to put a little more work into. I just want to replace my income and work a couple of days a week and I'd be able to do whatever else I want on the other five or four or five days. So in the more macro sense, I think some people probably roll in their eyes and say, trust me, I was that person. But now I always encourage you to go down that path. This is personal work on it. If you've got a spouse, partner or whatever, be on the same page, because if you're not on the same page it's going to make it really difficult not impossible, but really difficult to go through this. And then from there, I would find that problem right. I tell people to go through a skills and experience inventory and if you've done something for 20 to 30 years, you'll be shocked at how many different things you have to do. But from that then think about what is it you like to do, cause you're at it now a point you get a little bit. You may have to take some jobs or a couple of projects that aren't exactly what you want to do to get started. But start to think about what that is, who you want to work with, what type of business? Right, because some of the folks I talk with they could go into sales, so they could help small business with sales. But they're also really good at software, so they understand right, are you getting at the ROI off your current software? So there's multiple paths. You just get it down on paper and say, all right, here's in, francesca. Back to your point. There's three or four main problems that you can probably solve that you've got the expertise and your LinkedIn profile will show you can walk into these small business and say, yeah, I've done this type of thing and then you can start to figure out what does that offering look like?

Brett: 43:44

I think too often we go straight from well, I've got 30 years, I want to be fractional, but make it happen now. Just take the steps to go through it. Did you maybe make it happen Again? That was part of my learning curve. Was in consulting.

Brett: 43:58

Really like man, why did I do this? This isn't even what I like to do. I like the conversations, I like the problem solving, but I don't like project management. I don't like tracking down stakeholders, I don't like recapping meetings, those types of things. So I think it's figuring out what you want, identifying that problem at the most accurate or clearest point you can from a business owner standpoint, whoever you're solving it for in the business, and then the type of work that you want to do, and then you can start to craft options again, because those $3,000 to $5,000 a month engagements add up pretty quickly and if it's in your core expertise, it's probably not going to take you a lot of time to do it either. I don't like to oversimplify it, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

Francesca : 44:42

Yeah, those are such important questions and things to define and I'm surprised when I talk to people and they're in these situations and I ask them what do you want, like what is it you really really want? And they don't know or sometimes they don't want to admit what they really want because it's very far from where they are today. These are really important questions to ask yourself, for you to get to a space that you are meant to play in and that it'll be easy to play in as well.

Brett: 45:11

Yeah, I get feedback from folks that said that they took me two days right, they were longer to go through and actually think through what it was. But when you think about what's next for you, we've got a lot of options and flexibility. So that was the time. Like I said, I'm planning on living a while and healthy. So what am I going to do for the next 20, 25 years? Jesse Itzler he's NetJet's guy. He's Sarah Blakely's husband. He's built a really successful business, but one of the things that he had equipped not too long ago. He's like look, I think he's a year younger than me. So, statistically speaking, I've got 23 years left to live, which means I've got 23 summers and I want to do as much in those 23 summers as I absolutely can. I'm like yes, it's so true. And again, I think we get so conditioned that we can't think like that, like that's not for me, that's only for the rich can do this. No, that's the whole point of this exercise is, you can start to define what does that life look like? And then how do you incorporate your business into it? I'll give you one quick example.

Brett: 46:16

And she was my poster child forever. She and I worked in our last corporate job together. She was training and development, just hard charging corporate. She was moving up the corporate ladder. Then after that she's like you know what I'm done? And she wanted to start a business training and development and her whole mission was I want to take the month of August off so I can go climbing it didn't matter where in the world. So when she set up her training she worked with companies and basically said I'm not working in August. So they knew up front that she wasn't available for that. From that point on she grew her business. She hired some contractor to just do some work. She ultimately lived intentionally in her van, the van life, and then I think she's been in Australia now for six months running her company. But the whole point of that is she built this, she built her life and then figured out how to work, actually fits into it and I'm like that's so good.

Francesca : 47:08

Right, we're to do it. Yeah, it's build your life and then figure out how to put the work into it. I think that is the right equation. Right, that's the right stack of that story.

Brett: 47:19

It should be, like I said, better late than never for me figuring that out now. The other thing folks think they need to build the next Google or Microsoft, like if I leave corporate I've got to start a company. I'm like not anymore, I've solo businesses. Seeing the number of solo businesses with seven figures, I mean if you start to do the math and we can do that afterward you can see it's not that difficult. With the right couple of right freelancers or VA's to help with certain tasks you can build that. So I'm like how is it possible that these one person companies are doing one million or two million in revenue but yet there's three and five million dollar companies that have 22 employees?

Francesca : 47:55

There's so much opportunity. It's very exciting to think about.

Mel: 47:58

I love that, the concept of designing your life and then figuring out how work fits into it. That's how it should be. That's a great point. The one thing we can never get back is time. Well, hey, we have something we call a rapid round. Fun questions, yes or no? Are you up for a rapid round?

Brett: 48:37

Fire away.

Mel: 48:37

Okay, have you ever regretted leaving corporate?

Brett: 48:42

No.

Mel: 48:42

Have you ever had to turn down a dream project because it didn't align with your freelance goals?

Brett: 48:48

Not yet.

Mel: 48:50

Did leaving corporate improve your life 100%. Is it easier to say no to projects now that you're your own boss? No, it is TensorFlow. Think of what you needed when you came here.

Brett: 48:59

Yes, ish, Instinct still wants to take jobs, but my getting better at saying no if it does in a line, and usually I've figured that a little bit earlier in the process than I would have before, but yet still tempting right. If they're willing to pay a certain amount of money, it's do. I want to do this, so that's a car.

Mel: 49:24

Do you attend more or fewer meetings now than when you were in corporate?

Brett: 49:30

You were much fewer Good answer.

Francesca : 49:32

Good answer.

Mel: 49:34

Do you think contracting has made you a better negotiator overall?

Brett: 49:39

That's a good question. I would say yes. You go through more negotiations with potential customers, you get much more comfortable. The first couple are like oh my God, I can't you get. You're prepared for three days, right, and whatever they say, you're going to say yes to you because you don't want to jeopardize the deal. But then, as you start to go through a few, you realize it's more of a value based exchange than it is them walking away because you wanted a few extra dollars.

Brett: 50:09

It's good to hear you got nervous on your first negotiations too, oh for sure Common thing the bigger deals that you do get nervous because again, especially if it's a project I want, then it tends to get more nervous. The more you really want something, the more you tend to get nervous for.

Mel: 50:27

Have you ever worked from an unconventional location?

Brett: 50:31

That's a good question. I can't think of what an unconventional would mean anymore. I was actually working at home for a few years prior to the pandemic, so I kind of worked where I've been. So I wish I had a more exotic answer for you Like a treehouse in Costa Rica?

Mel: 50:49

or something.

Francesca : 50:50

Not a closet.

Brett: 50:53

No, I've been on a Zoom call with some guy that was cruising down the highway at 65 miles an hour from Detroit to Chicago on a. Zoom video. I'm like dude. It's okay, you can put it down and sound. I don't need to be seeing you scooting down the highway.

Mel: 51:08

Please don't get into an accident. Do you have your midday naps taken an uptick?

Brett: 51:15

No naps. I haven't figured out the naps, but definitely more. If I want to shut it down, nice, nice, can I give you just one tip?

Mel: 51:24

that I learned from this.

Brett: 51:26

Because when I started it, everything was I'm like ah, it's your contract, I can schedule my day however I want. But what I found was it was chaotic. And again back to that book time rich. It said, hey, if you calendarize and block time, it changed my life. It really did so. If people are struggling with that, I'm not saying you have to calendar or block. Find a system that works for you, because you'll be surprised at how much more time you actually do have.

Mel: 51:53

Time blocking. I also am a fan of the time block and I love that you're building in walks because that's good. Get some vitamin D. Last question, more of like a superstitious thing Do you have a favorite coffee mug or something that you're superstitious about for your work days?

Brett: 52:08

I wouldn't say superstitious, but that's funny. I don't know if you can see, oh puppy yeah, it was unfortunately, she was 18. We had lost her last year, but she was my office mate for like five years, and so my oldest daughter got me this cup as a gift, so I keep that as the good luck cup, so not superstitious, but more of a comfort feeling.

Mel: 52:32

I love that. I love that yeah.

Francesca : 52:53

Right before we adjourn. If you were talking to your kid or a best friend who is contemplating this, what would you tell them?

Brett: 53:01

Yeah, don't wait. Right, If there's a way to take control at the big macro, and it's don't run your life around your job. You may have to in the short term, but figure out a plan to get away from that as soon as possible. Get the skills you need to pay your dues, but always keep in mind that there is another way. You just want to be in control. Easier said than done sometimes, but it comes back to that time factor, and maybe now I'm just more sensitive to it as I'm older. But the earlier you can get that that it's okay to find alternative paths. My daughter's no by now.

Brett: 53:38

That corporate I'm not a big fan of anymore. It served me well, it had its purpose. But I think there's better ways to do that. And just again, take control of your own. Figure out a way to build your life and then incorporate work into it. And the last thing I'll add to that is figure out what you want. You may not know it at 25 to 29. You may not know, but I'd still have a plan. Even if it's this plan changes, think about where you go, Cause if you're not driving towards something, then it's you're just along for the ride.

Francesca : 54:09

And there's a lot of good work to do right and a huge space like wide open spaces.

Brett: 54:13

And people that appreciate that. These business owners and business small businesses appreciate it. They're open to it. There's enough that appreciate what you can do If appreciate your point of view, appreciate your thoughts on something, and I've heard from a number of folks that said that's one of the most refreshing things is somebody's actually listening to me. They're out there and they're hungry for your expertise.

Mel: 54:34

Time to tap into your main character energy.

Brett: 54:38

I like that yeah.

Mel: 54:39

I like the main character of your story, so build the story you want.

Francesca : 55:00

Brad, thanks so much for joining us today. We'll post in the show notes your Slack channel, your podcast, tiktok and your LinkedIn, just so everyone can go out and be part of your corporate escapee community. Thank you for joining us today.

Brett: 55:14

Yeah, that's my pleasure.

Francesca : 55:34

We'll be back next week with new week, new headlines. Thanks so much for joining us today. Like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends. Thanks, friend.

Salary Negotiation: Earn What You Deserve

Your Work Friends Podcast: Salary Negotiation with Kate Dixon

Stop underselling yourself…

Did you know, if you never negotiate your pay, you could leave almost $1M on the table over your career. Yeah, that's an 'M' -  as in million.

So, we called up our friend, Kate Dixon - one of the leading experts in all things compensation. Kate is the author of "Pay Up" and "Name Your Price". She's also the founder of Dixon Consulting - a compensation and leadership coaching firm.  What we love about Kate (there are a lot of things to love about Kate, including her dog, Jeffrey), is that she consults with companies from Nike to Intel to Silicon Valley Start-Ups to architect their compensation strategies.  And, she also coaches executives and employees on how to get the best compensation package possible.  

We’re talking real-world strategies, how pay decisions actually happen behind the scenes, and what it takes to ask for more—without the awkwardness. If you're ready to own your value and earn what you deserve, this episode is for you.

Listen or watch the full episode here

---

Kate : 0:00

Fundamentally, the way that I look at it both pricing conversations with clients and salary negotiation is you're solving a business problem. That's what you're doing.

Mel: 0:27

We are your work friends, two HR friends who have no filter and are getting you through all the work shit. I'm Mel.

Francesca : 0:35

Hey, and I'm Francesca.

Mel: 0:37

Today we met with Kate Dixon. Francesca who's Kate Dixon?

Francesca : 0:42

She's the principal and founder of Dixon Consulting, a leadership development and total rewards consultancy. She's also the author of two books that honestly, everybody should read. One is called Pay Up Unlocking Insider Secrets of Salary Negotiations. This is the book that a lot of people use to figure out how do you negotiate your salary. The other, if you freelance or you're a contractor, name your price. We got to talk to her today about how do you go through earning what you deserve.

Mel: 1:10

Yeah, salary negotiations Hot topic. Good for everyone to know here's Kate. Hey, Kate Nice to see you. Hello girl. Good to see you too. We're so excited to talk about Comp with you today. I'm just going to jump right into it. Why does it matter that people know and negotiate their market rate?

Kate : 1:43

Oh my gosh, there's so many reasons. One of the things that people don't realize is that if you don't do a good job of it at the beginning of your career, it can impact you over your lifetime. Studies shows that over the lifetime of a woman's career, she can lose up to a million bucks. If you have that million bucks at your retirement, it's going to be a different retirement than if you don't have a million.

Francesca : 2:08

I have a huge, such a big interest.

Mel: 2:10

Huge, yeah. What assumptions are holding people back here in this space? What do you think holds people back?

Kate : 2:17

I think the biggest one is the assumption that I don't know enough to do it right. I don't want to make an idiot of myself, and so I'm not going to do it. I think that was probably the number one thing. I think that there's also this weird thing that people think about, that they're going to have their offer withdrawn if they negotiate, which is not true. But yeah, two big things.

Mel: 2:43

I believe it because I remember working in talent acquisition I could tell the hesitation to have the conversation and I think good recruiters will push you through that and then you'll have some who don't. They're like okay, that's what you accepted, though that's a great call out. We have this saying explained to me like I'm fine how the hell does comp work here? How does comp work? Walk people through? How does it even work?

Kate : 3:07

Comp went a lot right. So, basically, what happens in most companies is they create a job architecture. This is a leveling kind of a thing where you might have a professional, a senior professional, you might have a manager, a senior manager, director, those kinds of things. That's what we call a job architecture, and a lot of times when we're putting together job architectures, we're also putting together functions and families, and some companies pay differently based on the function and family, some don't. I'm really trying to encourage my clients to have a few differentiators based on function as possible, because we know that function is one of those artifacts of how we always have done things.

Kate : 4:00

There's a reason why finance and HR don't pay the same. It's because finance people used to all be dudes and HR people used to be all chip, and so what you're seeing in those functional differences is really the impact of gender bias in pay. So, anyway, I don't think that it's really worth carving out a lot of functional differences, although I have a client in high tech that's based in the Silicon Valley. They do software stuff, and so they have a specific structure for software engineers and then one for everybody else. So the job architecture has the different levels. It has different functions and families. And then what a comp person would do would be to look at a salary survey and this is a place where companies submit data about how they pay different jobs and then the company that's running the survey basically spits out a report that says, hey, this is about how much an accountant with zero to three years of experience makes in these different zip codes or these different areas, in these different types of organizations and that sort of thing. So what a comp person would do is say, oh okay, we have an accountant one and so we're going to match to this job in the salary survey and bring in all the data.

Kate : 5:30

They'll put together salary ranges either by job or by family and function or by level a number of different ways to do it but they'll come up with those salary ranges.

Kate : 5:42

Then they'll put on top of that some policies around. Here's how we want to pay people within a range. Typically they'll say entry to the bottom third of the range, for example, would be for folks who are new to this level with not a lot of experience doing this particular job. People around the middle would be seasoned folks who've been doing this kind of work for a while and have good, satisfactory performance. And then the top third of the range is typically folks who've been either at the same job for a while or have spectacular performance over time, and typically it's some sort of combination of the two. Sometimes you'll see people at the top of the range who have really unique skills that they're bringing into the organization with the assumption that they'll train other folks. Ai has been likely in recent years right, but it's typically at a new skill, super hot skill, and over time the premium that gets paying for that new hot skill regresses a little bit as more and more people get that skill.

Mel: 6:51

It's helpful to educate people on how is this stuff even determined. It's not a dartboard just to throw at certain ranges. There's a lot of research and thought that goes into it. The overall package of compensation is beyond just the salary. What else is typically included in a comp package that you can negotiate?

Kate : 7:10

It really depends on the level of the job. To be honest with you, most jobs and most companies have base pay and some sort of an annual bonus. Again, in the frontline roles you don't always see a bonus. Sometimes you'll see some sort of activity, commissioning kind of thing. That will happen, but there's usually a base and a bonus kind of thing. There's always going to be some sort of benefits health insurance, life insurance, dental. You might get a gym membership.

Kate : 7:45

As you go up in the organization, you tend to see other kinds of things like equity.

Kate : 7:51

When we say equity pay, equity is one thing, but equity we're talking about compensation can mean stock options or restricted share rights or things like that. In my startup clients a lot of times we'll talk about it as a percentage of ownership of the company and then, as you get even higher into the organization, we see things like long-term cash programs and things like that. So those are the main building blocks With negotiation. Typically we'll see some sort of sign on cash and we'll set sign on equity, depending on the type of organization. Again, high-tech organizations tend to have more of this sign on equity, especially for tech people, and if it's a company that's owned by a parent that's outside of the US sign on stuff is not very common. It's not very common to do sign on cash or sign on equity outside of the United States. Just know it's not kind of part of their lexicon typically. So I do have a company that is a client that is owned by a Japan parent and they are pretty disciplined about offering sign on cash and sign on options.

Mel: 9:09

It's good to know, if you're American and you expect that a sign on bonus would be something you're offered, and if they're not a US company and you're trying to negotiate, that it might be the wrong thing to negotiate, because that might it might be a little harder.

Francesca : 9:23

I've always wondered this and I would love to ask you, because you've seen it all Do you make more money over time going into a private company or a public one that gives you the RSUs or gives you the stock options? What have you found?

Kate : 9:36

I've developed my philosophy of over time on this, but one thing that I will tell you is that a good, strong company that has a history of gross equity that you get from that is probably going to be worth more in the long run than stuff that you get from a startup and people like, no, they told me I'm going to make $1 million. But what is true now that was not true even 15 years ago is that most startups wind up getting investment from PE firms and the PE firm. Their entire mission is to harvest value out of these companies that they invest in. That's what they're there for, that's what they're doing, and so, as a part of that harvesting, what I typically see is that the equity arrangements get changed pretty dramatically, especially for people who are not the founders.

Kate : 10:36

I've had clients who said, hey, I need you to help me negotiate my pay because we sold our startup to mega big fang company and I was told I was going to make millions out of this. And I actually made 20 grand and I worked 80 hour weeks for years to make this happen and we didn't get much of anything out of it, and that's because of the impact of PE firms. There's all kinds of different things that happen. But again, it's not saying don't work for startup, because one of the things that startups do better than any other company is provide boots on the ground development opportunities to learn a ton and get the opportunity to do a lot of stuff.

Kate : 11:21

Most startups that I have worked with, consulted with, they're all like oh, you're going to raise your hand? Great, have that. You want to write our report to our community? Yes, you go do that, and so the opportunity to really build a skill set unmatched, and so that's why you want to do it. Maybe it's to have a big title or have the whole CFO kind of experience. Could you do that at a big company with just a little bit of experience now, but you might be able to do it at a startup.

Francesca : 12:09

How does someone know what their market rate is?

Kate : 12:12

Yeah, there are a number of ways to look at it, and this is not about your worth as a human being. The work that you do for companies is worth Right Again, salarycom, indeedcom, glass door ladders, I mean there's all kinds of different ways your professional organizations that you belong to, alumni associations, all of these places are great places to collect data on pay, and one of the most effective ways to do it is to ask people, and there's a lot of of serving of little ditam池amerses.

Kate : 12:50

And it's hard to excuse making difficult money for them, because you may only use five different ways that you could do it, and one of the ways to find them is that's a new market to lucre fueron steer them to ask for more pay, which is hey, my research shows that jobs like this are getting paid between X and Y in the marketplace. How does that land with you? It's something that you could ask somebody who's doing the job that you're interested in today, and then they could go well, that's really high, or well, that's low, or maybe I should need to ask for a reason. But at least that can give you some of the guardrails around what's normal for what you're looking at.

Francesca : 13:37

Yeah, does it differ if someone's freelancing Freelancing?

Kate : 13:43

pay can be all over the place. Again, professional organizations can be really great. So, if you're a coach, icf does a survey every year and stuff like that. But, yes, do try to gather data because there are data sources out there. But it's really about the value that you're able to sell into the client, not necessarily XYZ dollars per hour, although some people do price stuff that way. I see some people getting big bucks in the consulting, freelance coaching space when they don't have a ton of experience, but there's a pretty good correlation. So if you've got a 20-plus year career in corporate America and now you're going to go out and be a consultant, you're probably going to get paid a lot more than somebody with the newly minted MBA. It's going to be different than somebody with an MBA plus. Yeah, that's super fair.

Francesca : 14:40

Kate, you've written several books Pay Up, name your Price, which I love too, because it also focuses on folks that are contracting in freelance. One of the things you talk about in both of those books and in your consultancy is this idea of mindset. Yeah, and I think about this conversation, especially today, as an international women's day. Today, this is when we're talking happy Friday, happy international women's day, and we're sitting in the year 2024. We're all sitting in the country of the United States and women, especially, are making 16% less on the dollar than men, and we also know pay discrepancies happen across every gender, race, ethnicity, you name it and everybody at some point needs to negotiate their salary. And I'm curious about mindset. When you're going into these conversations Wondering if you can talk about what do you coach people on in terms of getting into the right mindset as you're thinking about earning what you deserve?

Kate : 15:36

Yeah, I think it's really critical and a lot of people go, oh, I don't need that, that's woe was stopped.

Kate : 15:42

But fundamentally, the way that I look at it both pricing conversations with clients and salary negotiations is you're solving a business problem.

Kate : 15:54

That's what you're doing, and especially when you're talking about pay for yourself, it's so hard to get that emotional distance that is important when you're doing any kind of work at work. So creating that emotional distance is really important, and one of the ways that I coach people on doing that is to meditate for even 10 minutes before you get on a conversation with the person you're negotiating with and clear your mind as well as you can, and then, when you come out of that, really be intentional about how you want to show up. What do you want people to notice about you? And chances are pretty good it's going to be like hey, I'm a really valuable person, I bring valuable skills, I'm on it, I'm on my game, I'm cool, I'm great. Those are things that you want people to notice about you and if you can clear your mind of some of the assumptions about yourself and maybe the other person you're negotiating with before you get on that call, you're going to do a lot better.

Francesca : 17:00

Yeah, the energy you show up with will be different and more attractive. Quite honestly, yeah, yeah, I got it. One of the things I think about, too, is that you have the right to ask for something. Yes, and I've talked to so many people where I can't ask for that. What if they pull off the table? What if they say no? What if? Do you find that people are afraid to even broach the possibility that they deserve more, or that they deserve what they're looking for?

Kate : 17:28

Yeah, and there's some people who just think to themselves the person I'm talking with knows more about what I'm worth than I know. What I'm worth and what the person that you'll negotiate with does have more knowledge of is what's going on inside the company. And fair right, they should. But you may have a different take on what your value is in the marketplace. This idea of are we worth it? I don't know and I don't feel like I can ask.

Kate : 18:01

This is really deep-seated socialization. That's happened particularly with women, particularly with people of color, around money stuff. You should be grateful just to have an offer. No, that's not the full story. Yeah, I should be grateful for my offer. They're making you an offer because they see that you have value, and one of the things that I coach my clients on, too, is that sometimes the client company places a different value on the work that's being done than you do, and so in that kind of a case it may not be a match. When you think about a marketing person, where are they going to be most highly valued? I'm going to just tell you, I worked at Nike. It's going to be a place like Nike, they're grown for it.

Kate : 18:51

And if you're a marketing person, you're going to be like Nike. And if you're a tech person, you're going to want to go to Intel, and I've worked for both of these companies and I can tell you that a tech person in Intel is likely going to be more highly valued because the work is more highly valued and more tied to their line function, their intellectual property, than it is in a company like Nike. Again, if you're a marketing person and you're talking to Intel and Intel has great marketing people, don't get me wrong but if you're really thinking about premium package, because you're a premium talent, working for a high-tech company may not be the right match for you.

Francesca : 19:38

It's good to know to not get discouraged. If you go in and someone says we're going to pay you half of what you can get on the market somewhere else, it doesn't mean you're not valuable, it just means that they're not willing to pay that rate. Understanding your market rate in different markets is really important, yeah.

Kate : 19:56

I've had clients. People ask me this all the time. Oh, I saw the range posted. What I want is more than what's posted Generally. They're not going to go above the range, but if you really feel like, wow, this is a great match, and perhaps the potential employer may not be as connected to the marketplace as you are, it's okay to go in and say, hey, I really feel like this is a great match for me and I don't want money to get in the way of a good thing. You should know that my research is showing that jobs like this are paid like this in the marketplace.

Kate : 20:34

I had a client about a year ago who was faced with that and she was like hey, I'm in a good place. They approached me and I don't want to go to work for them for less than a good increase from the thing that I'm doing now. So she actually negotiated a 10% higher than the top of the range. Oh, wow, but I think, too, they hadn't really leveled the job appropriately and she was able to show hey, these are the technical things that you're asking for, and so this is how it should be paid in the marketplace. Is that a common thing to do? No, but it certainly does help. It's worth it.

mel: 21:17

Worth it to have a conversation. We always say that just have the conversation you never, know, you never know. I'd love to talk about the dos and don'ts of having this conversation In your practice. You talk about the four-part recipe on how to have this conversation. What is that? What is the four-part recipe?

Kate : 21:37

So the four-part recipe is pretty similar between internal conversations with your boss and external. The first part is about expressing delight. So thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me. I'm so glad that XYZ Company thinks it's as good of a match as I do. Right Done, express delight because your recruiter doesn't always know if you're going to say yes, you want to set it up? Hey, we got some breadcrumbs out there.

Kate : 22:09

So that's part one. Part two is asking questions, and this is not where you're going to ask for. What you want more of this is you're trying to clarify the offer letter and, psm, by the way, read every damn thing that comes with your offer letter Everything, yes, yes. All the attachments, the policies.

Mel: 22:31

Get out of highlighter. Print that baby out.

Kate : 22:34

Write all over it Because you don't want to waste your time or their time asking stuff that you already actually have the answers to and remember you want them to think good things about you. One of the classic questions that my clients ask is something around 401k match, because a lot of times they'll say we have a very generous 401k match but they don't say what it is in writing stuff and say, hey, I see that you got a 401k match. Could you help me understand what that looks like? And then what the recruiter talk? Let your HR person or the hiring manager, whatever talk about that. And again, there are psychological reasons that we have this recipe in this order. But one of those things is these should be answerable questions that the person that you're talking to should be able to answer off the top of their head or answer with a very quick look up, so that you're making progress toward this conversation. And the number three thing is making your request. Now, a lot of people think negotiation is you start with number three, but do not start with number three. Right, it's a business problem. You're solving the business problem. You want everybody on board, so follow the recipe and make your request, like if somebody wants to ask for more base pay. This is how I ask them to do it. So my research shows that jobs like these are paid between X and Y in the marketplace. Remember that from our previous thing about asking your friends, based on my fill in the blank, some special thing about you. I'm targeting the higher end of the range. How close can we get? And this is important, this whole thing. So my research shows, yes, they want you to have done some research, right, and we want to be basing it based on your research, not on, hey, it might historically been paid lower than the market and so I would like to get paid lower than the market again. No, we want to base it on the research. So my research shows the jobs like this are paid X between X and Y. You want to give them a range of places to be successful right, but you don't want this to be if I can't have a pony for Christmas, I don't want anything. You want them to be able to be successful in different ways and the range should probably be about 10% wide. Maybe it's 55 to 65 or 55 to 62. You could say mid 200s if you want to, but X and Y in the marketplace, based on my special thing about myself, right, based on my directly applicable experience, based on my if you're doing an internal, based on my outstanding track record, if you're just coming out of school, based on the fact that I went to Northwestern, based on my special thing, we're targeting the higher end of that range. Right, okay, we say mid 200s. Well, that's 230 to 270. So I would like to be up at the top and remember, if you're saying mid 200s, 230 to 270 is in your head, you want to make sure that 230 is not your basement. Right, you'd be happy with 230. Based on this, I'm targeting the higher end of that.

Kate : 25:51

This last piece is really important. How close can we get? Now, again, this is a collaborative way, it's not. Can you do this, right? And you're asking how close can we get? Because you don't want to guess, or no question, because that fires off really quickly in the brain. You want them to stop and listen to it. Close can we get? And then the most important piece of this question is what you do when you're done, and that is you be quiet.

Mel: 26:19

Faved you. Yeah, you're like sure.

Kate : 26:21

no, it's for a while they're thinking right, and you've asked them something that they have to think about and it's a multiple part question, and so you want them to have time to process this and chance are very good that they're not going to be able to give you exactly what you want in that conversation. It's not your goal to have them say, yes, you can have $270,000, right, right. Your goal that we offer them, but it's not reasonable. They always have to go back, just like car salesmen. They always have to go back to the manager and have that expectation. So you're making a request to maybe three tops I wouldn't make more than that and rank them in the order of their importance. And that's not just like well, gym membership Okay, good for you, but if you get an extra $5,000, you can pay for that, you can count it. So rank it in terms of like, volume and importance.

Kate : 27:21

So then, once you've made your request, then the fourth piece is ending on an up note, and there are a couple of different pieces of this right, and one of them is we know that the end of conversations is more important than the beginning in the middle. It's stupid, it's true. If you look at Yelp reviews, they're all about like took them 15 minutes to get my bill to me and then I got mad. So one star. Yes, I know making the request it's very hard, it's very emotional, but you're focused on having a good ending this conversation. Thank you so much for advocating on my behalf, did they think?

Kate : 28:00

they were going to advocate on your behalf. Maybe not, but thanking them for doing it.

Mel: 28:05

It's always a good thing. A little bit of thanks goes a long way.

Kate : 28:08

You both know this. We're not getting any love.

Mel: 28:12

No, they're in the middle getting beat up on both sides.

Kate : 28:15

We need help If you're recognizing what they're doing for you and appreciating that it goes a long way. Yeah, it goes a long way.

Kate : 28:22

Yeah, thank you so much for advocating on my behalf. Then you have to figure out when you're going to talk to them again, because people think that doing this negotiation is the hardest part of negotiation. No, it is waiting to hear back from the recruiter. That is the worst. People make up stories and they're head about how it works. You can take the lead on this. When would be good for us to talk again? The insolver recruiters are going to be great and they're going to say, oh yeah, let's talk again on Thursday. But if they don't say that, when would be a good time for us to talk Sounds like you've got some background stuff that needs to happen.

Kate : 29:05

I want to make sure that you have enough time to do that. What about next Wednesday? Does that sound like a good time for us to connect? Sure, I guess we could. I've got nine o'clock free. Can I send you an invite? Take some work off of your recruiters plate, because, guess what, they have 30 to 40 requisitions. You're not the only person that they're talking to, so make it easy for them and then you're done. Right, you've expressed your delight, you've asked your questions, you've made your quest and then you've ended. On an up note it's a recipe for success.

Mel: 29:43

Having a collaborative conversation and you're providing options, just like they've provided you with options, and it shows that you're willing to compromise. And it's a two-way street, go the long way and it's and you're poor recruiters. They're really trying. They do want the best for you and Kate to your good point. They're usually handling 40, 50 recs. They're having this negotiation conversation with a million candidates and going back and forth with hiring managers on what could move. So just a little bit of kindness goes such a long way. I have two follow-up questions. It sounds pretty clear and straightforward from your four-part recipe. This is what you should say. Don't deviate from this, because this is a solid plan. But what should you absolutely not say in these discussions?

Kate : 30:31

I have a number one thing you don't want to say for an internal conversation with your boss, and that is to use the word fair in any way, shape or form, because, even though it may be objectively true that it's not fair the way that you're being paid, what managers tend to hear with that is you, manager, are acting out of integrity and nobody wants to feel like they're not doing the right thing and you need your manager to advocate on your behalf. Just like the recruiter in the external scenario, your manager is going to be the one who's going to be advocating for your behalf in an internal scenario. So you don't want them to be mad at you or to think, oh my gosh, she thinks fair. I'm immediately thinking wasu and we're going to batten down the hatches and not talk about anything. That's not what this is about.

Kate : 31:31

So if you're really focusing on the external market and not, oh my gosh, my friend Mel is making 20,000 more than me and that is not fair. No, my research shows a job like these are being paid between X and Y in the marketplace. Based on my super awesome thing, I'm targeting the higher end of that range. How close can we get? That's a perfect, legit conversation to have with your boss, but it also pulls the focus away from their actions and protecting the company to what really they need to focus on is what's going on in the marketplace.

Mel: 32:12

Follow the formula it works, it works. You talked about gym memberships and getting clear on what you want to negotiate. Are there things you absolutely should stay away from negotiating?

Kate : 32:24

So the gym membership is actually a little foreign my side, because I did have an executive when I was internal to a company that shall remain nameless, who is an executive at a Fortune 100 company, I will say that and who wanted to negotiate every stinking thing in his package, including a gym membership. Dude, you're making so much money. This is worth maybe three grand to you, come on. So, yeah, if you're an executive, don't be negotiating the little things, because everybody will hate you for it, including yourself.

Kate : 33:03

When somebody says, okay, we've had enough, but benefits, you probably won't be able to negotiate anything with benefits because everybody's getting the same thing. You could try, but it's not even worth the effort. To be honest with you, what else do you not want to negotiate? I think that for the most part, work conditions again, some of them, whether or not it's hybrid or work from home situation those absolutely should be negotiated, but negotiate those after you figured out the package, especially if they've hinted through the job description or whatever, that people are part-time, working at home or whatever. Don't be negotiating work conditions before you do your other stuff. What have you all seen that you have with Regis?

Francesca : 33:51

There was an executive he had come from a very large technology company, was going to a smaller technology company that didn't have free food everywhere and asked for $10,000 a year for lunch stipend. And it was like, bro, you're making like $20 million a year, you don't need the $10,000 lunch stipend. Run for the border like all of us. You know what I'm saying.

Mel: 34:14

Get real. It sounds like people should be realistic. Focus on your base, focus on the right stuff. One thing that's come up for us recently and it would be fun to go down a rabbit hole to see what people have negotiated you must have some examples, kate, of like weird stuff you've seen negotiated and included. One of the things Francesca and I were talking about recently with all of the layoffs was can you negotiate your severance upfront? Is that something you can negotiate as part of your starting package? If I'm to be laid off within the first year or within the first two years, I'm given this package, an agreed-a-pound package, is that something you can negotiate?

Kate : 34:54

It depends on your level in the organization. Perfectly frank with you. When I'm working with C-suite folks, even in smaller organizations, that is always part of the conversation that we have. But typically below, I would say, a VP level, I haven't seen that because below the VP level there's usually some sort of a policy that's in place Even at the VP level. A lot of times there is too, but it is more common to negotiate it as part of your employment agreement, if you have one, and those typically don't start until VP level. But the same thing goes with relocation. If you're doing a relocation package, a lot of times there's some flexibility, but not a lot, because with larger companies they typically tier it based on the level of job that you're at. And another reason to do away with levels in my own bed. But until then, one of the crazy things I've seen I know somebody who had two great dates who could not fly because they you can't fly, you can't put them under the belt in the plane.

Kate : 36:07

There's biggest of the plane so you can't. But that person was able to negotiate renting a van. They used that as part of their moving. It seems fair. It seems fair.

Mel: 36:20

You want your pets or your loved ones. What do you do if you've done the research, you've done the four-part recipe, you've shared the research and they come back and say that's anecdotal information.

Kate : 36:36

It depends. One of the things that I advise people to do too, before they even get to negotiate, is figure out whether your bottom line is, and so you know. Sometimes the bottom line, the offer, is already in there, and so it's okay. If you can't negotiate anything, that's not necessarily a loss. But again, think about how the company is treating you through this process. If somebody told me that my research was anecdotal, I'd be a little pissed off. Yeah, do I want to work here. But if they're saying, hey, that's not consistent with what we're seeing in our salary surveys and you don't know all the stuff that's behind what they're putting in and they may be wrong in your opinion and you're not going to be able to come to an agreement, and that's okay. If they don't value the work the way that you want to be paid you feel like you should be paid then again it's not that it's a bad call by the company or a bad call by you. It's just not a match.

Mel: 37:57

Every company also has their own comp philosophy. So who's doing comp right?

Kate : 38:03

Oh, my gosh. I think it depends, and I wouldn't say that any one company is doing a super great job across the board. But my companies that are doing more in terms of salary transparency, pay transparency some of it is fair enough because they wanted to comply with the law. That's always a good thing. But a lot of my clients who are located in California, which is where the big pay transparency stuff is going on, they're being open about it all across the country, even where there's not pay transparency laws on the books, and I think it's just great and people are like oh, that's really simple pay transparency. But what it translates to a lot of different things that really are around health in this area, which is, hey, we're going to be really consistent with the way that we level our jobs, we're going to be consistent with the way that we pay our people. We're going to talk about pay with our employees. Those things are all really great.

Mel: 39:06

Are there any companies today that you're like man? They're really progressive here.

Kate : 39:10

Every single company, even companies that are doing well in this space, I'm sure have individuals that they are paying the way that they probably could, and so that's why I don't want to go. Hey, xyz Corp totally is nailing it, and then there's one person getting paid like crap.

Mel: 39:28

Yeah, they're like wait, I'm paying peanuts over here. You don't know your time. Yeah, I get it. I totally understand.

Kate : 39:35

Are there any companies that you guys would hold out as?

Mel: 39:38

good models in this space. When I think of like good practices, it's not different from what you've already mentioned. It's organizations that are making sure that they're looking at the research, probably in an annual basis, and making sure that people are in their comp ratio and in the market rate and they're really doing that analysis to make sure, if folks are under their market rate, that they're making them whole in some way and finding a way to do that. I think it's hard to get it perfect to make sure that you're trying and in your transparent about the steps you're taking to make it right. I think that's so critically important.

Francesca : 40:17

I've sat at tables where we're reviewing comp and there have been some companies I've worked with where we're not going to talk about things like pay equity, we're not going to have these types of conversations. And then I've also worked at organizations that are very open to that conversation and that might sound really basic, but the ability to even say, hey, we've got a discrepancy here. What can we do to start working towards bridging the gap? I applaud organizations that are willing to have that conversation, because not everybody is.

Kate : 40:45

And, ironically, some of the most transparent with pay organizations that are out there are actually governmental organizations. So, like, my first job out of drug goal was with the sting of Colorado and we had this book and you could look up everybody's spending. And now it's online, because that's how old I am, but we come from book era too. That's the way things work. It's everybody knows what everybody gets paid. There's really a lot of openness about that and people make it their business to know why things are the way they are. It's a really good model and people don't typically go oh yeah, the government. That's where I want to go for my party. They've been doing it and doing it well for years and years.

Francesca : 41:34

Yeah, the best learning and development organization is the military, so they get things right.

Mel: 41:39

They do get things right.

Francesca : 41:39

Yeah.

mel: 41:41

But the way that COMP is structured is also evolving over time. I'd love to understand from your point of view, how do you see COMP evolving and how would you like to see it evolve.

Kate : 41:54

Hmm, interesting, two different answers. I think so. One of the perspectives that I carry is that my company is a B corporation, so we're really all about people and planet and profit. So I work with lots of B-corp. I also work with lots of nonprofits. I also work for other companies too, but my perspective with the nonprofit and B-corp group these are mission focused organizations, purpose driven right, and I am seeing a lot of these companies shifting toward employee ownership, which I think is super cool, and there are more and more tools available for organizations that want to go this route than there have been before.

Kate : 42:41

It used to be a very daunting process and I'm not going to say it's easy now, but again, tons more resources, a lot more specialists consulting in that area. So that's one thing that I'm seeing evolve for purpose driven companies and it's pretty cool and also requires a completely different leadership model. Right, a few employees who are owning the company. They want to know the stuff. Right, it's like taking pay transparency to the next level, right? Not just pay transparency, it's P and L transparency and I just I think that's great, I think it's awesome, and I'm also seeing, with these companies purpose driven companies I'm seeing a trend toward really advancing the pay of frontline workers. One of my clients decided that they wanted a family housing wage to be their minimum wage. They pay over 2x what the market rate is for those jobs. That's amazing and I think it's terrific and appropriate. And our minimum wage has lagged from a federal perspective, even our state perspective. I'm in Oregon and, yeah, it's much, much higher than the federal, but I don't think it's kept pace especially with when you look at how our executive pay has shifted over time. So I'm digging those things and those are things that I would want to see every company shift toward.

Kate : 44:12

Well, another thing that I'm thinking about is how have the systems of bias and oppression contributed to our pay program? So I think about antiprecipate a lot, and what can we do to move away from that? One of the things that I try to work with my clients on is removing individual performance as a factor that's going to determine pay. Do you want to still keep track of what people are doing and how they're doing it? Absolutely, that's fine. But we know that it's bias the way that we look at performance. Performance standards for women are substantially narrower than the most for men. For people of color, it's very dramatically different, that behaviors that are okay in the dominant culture are not okay in some of these cultures that have been marginalized by the dominant culture. How can we make pay less problematic from those kinds of perspectives? So that's what I'm really focusing on these days.

Francesca : 45:17

What would be your definition of anti-oppressive pay structures, because I don't think a lot of our listeners know what that is?

Kate : 45:24

Yeah, Well, it's actually a term I came up with. It's some different avenues that we look at in terms of what determines pay. So levels, so the more levels that you have, the more likely it is going to impact people who've been marginalized by the systems, because at every inflection point where you're moving from one level to another, you have this kind of this filtration system that's built in, this social system that's built in, and women, people of color, differently-abled folks, lgbtqia plus folks, they find it harder to get to that next level and I think that's honestly that's going to be the last one to fall, because we think, of course, ceos should make more than frontline workers, but pay is a social construct. We made it up.

Mel: 46:18

It's not like there's a law about that, yeah, it could be revolutionary and change it and blow it up.

Kate : 46:26

And I sit on a group with a woman who's a CEO of a B Corp who pays everyone in her entire organization the same, including herself. That's right, though, yeah, 100% anti-oppressive right, because everybody gets it right. So levels are one, functions are another one. We talked about that a little bit ago. Individual performance as a determiner of pay that is huge, and that's probably the number one thing that I'm trying to communicate with my clients is hey, you know what? The government does a great job here. They have step stuff, and I get a lot of pushback. But oh, what about performance? Because that we have to make sure our shiny stars get more.

Kate : 47:13

There's some myth around individual performance in my mind, because no person's an island. If you've got somebody who's doing really terrific work, chances are they've got a really terrific team that's surrounding them, and the big archetype of this is sales. Dude, right, and sales are trillion, trillion widgets, and it's like this rugged, individualist thing and it's a myth, right, it's not a real, true thing, because they've got somebody who's vetting all the leads for them. They've got somebody who's arranging their travel, they've got really great products behind them. All of these things are conspiring to help this sales person be excellent, and it's not that they don't have any value, and they may be fantastic at creating the kind of relationships that lead to long-term success. So I don't want to take away from that. Should we be paying that person 3x what other people get? I don't know. I don't think so. Probably not.

Mel: 48:16

Yeah, it makes sense because, to your good point, they're not an island. They have a whole team of people setting them up for success. So, although they help close the deal, at the end, it's all of the steps that led up to that, though, that really helped play into it. So everyone has an equal role in that success.

Kate : 48:32

I really like that concept and there are a couple of other factors too around antipressive pay, things like making sure that people have access, like right now. We talked earlier about the things that are different as you go up the scale and having only executives being able to participate in equity programs or long-term incentive programs. I think that's silly, because people who are on the front line are doing things that are going to impact the long-term success of the company, and LTI tends to be one of the big wealth building vehicles for people, and if you just say, okay, 90% of our population doesn't even have access to that, so go away, that's not great, and when I worked at Intel, they gave every single person stock options and they don't do it anymore that way, but it created this completely different mindset for people who are on the manufacturing floor. That was tremendous and very good for the business. I'd love to see LTI if you're going to use it everywhere.

Francesca : 49:37

Walmart started to do that in terms of options to make their store managers owners in the company. Great, that's the kind of movement we love to see 20K in options which can be, over time, life changing for a lot of people, especially when we think about retirement or having a savings nest.

Francesca : 49:54

The other thing I think about. May I tell a story? I'm going to go on a scenic route and then I'll come back. Mel knows the story. I have two master's degrees. This is not a brag, this is just more funny than anything. I like to be in school. If I won the Lotto I would just go back to school. I love it. But my first master's degree was from Northern Illinois University. My second is from Northwestern. Why am I sharing that? Because when I went to Northern it was if you get a job, you may see this, and at Northwestern is when you're a chief marketing officer. This is what you'll see. And I think the idea of setting a band and saying this is the step, and here's the bar for everybody to hit, here's the bar, as opposed to paying for performance which, to your very good point, can be riddled with bias, and this is a team sport. It's a really interesting inverse, because what I have found is when you say here's the bar and it's an attainable bar, most people will meet it. Yeah, yeah, it gets like.

Kate : 50:57

Everybody wants to come to work and do a good job, right? Nobody comes in and say, hey, I want to be an asshole today.

Francesca : 51:03

There's that one guy the one who's going to come in.

Kate : 51:07

But people love success and they want to get the heart of success and they want to contribute to the success of the organization and they're kept in the loop about what's going on. And again, this is back to some of the things that employee owned companies do. If people are brought along in that venture, yeah, they're going to respond. The problem, like with employee engagement in general and I've done a ton of employee engagement research over my career, which I do like a weird geek about and I love. People need to understand that North Star. They need to feel like what they're doing matters and the more visibility you can create for that, the better it goes. Yeah.

Francesca : 52:11

So, kate, we have something we like to do with all our guests called Wrap it Round. We're going to give you a few questions. What's something that everyone should write into their offer letter?

Kate : 52:21

I don't know, because I work with people at all different levels of the organization. So what's really appropriate for my executive clients? Probably not the same as for my recent college grad, even our recent college grads. I would advise them to ask for a sign-on bonus and, if you don't know what to ask for, 10% of your starting salary, your base pay.

Francesca : 52:44

I like that 10% number, maybe not the use of the company jet, if you're just spitting off, I got it. What's the biggest mistake people make in negotiations?

Kate : 52:54

I think, just accepting the offer on the spot, even if you ultimately accept it and don't negotiate it, because a lot of times what companies will do is try to do what I call the pre-offer. If we said $60,000 right now, could you say yes right now? And it's not a car right? Let me see everything in writing and read about the benefits, because you may find that there's some significant gap that you don't know. So don't say yes on the spot.

Francesca : 53:22

This could be work-related. It could not be. But what do you love to negotiate, oh God?

Kate : 53:27

I love negotiating pay. Now I don't really negotiate my consulting rates or anything, and there's a whole reason behind that, but I just I love salary negotiations so hard and everybody should ask me about it because I will tell you. I will tell you all the things and I think it's super fine. My son is like my hype man and so he makes all of his friends call me and yeah, let's talk about it. So I love paying the compensation.

Francesca : 53:53

I really do. You should have like a ticker tape of how much money you've gotten people Like 70 billion served. I love that.

Kate : 53:59

I should, because, like my top one, I ever did a million and a half.

Mel: 54:05

Wow, get out of here.

Kate : 54:10

I was walking with a little swagger there for a second. We should, oh man.

Francesca : 54:15

Kate, we need to talk. Yeah, the trinities. This might be a very philosophical, perhaps a stoic question, but what should you never negotiate?

Kate : 54:26

in life, never negotiate things that don't really matter. We talked about the little things in an offer. It doesn't matter. Let go, you can use your energy better elsewhere.

Francesca : 54:39

Yeah, I love that so much of life is energy management, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, listen. I think everyone should read. Payup Name your prices are amazing books for everyone to read. Kate got into some of these things today. But, kate, I'm curious what other book would you recommend everybody read?

Kate : 54:57

One that is just on my mind recently because I heard the author speak yesterday is called Career Forward and it's by Christiana Giesmit Giesmit's. She it's terrific. It gives you lists of things that you can do and think about in your career to manage your career better, and it's really good.

Francesca : 55:16

One is you'd mentioned meditating in terms of getting into that mindset. Do you also recommend that folks have a hype song? I know a Nike there there's like the hybril. We get that sort of thing. But should people have a hype song?

Kate : 55:26

So my son was a baseball player and so he always got to pick his walk on song every season, and I love that. I think it's a great idea because we know our neural pathways. Sound allows us to dip into that space pretty easily, so maybe it's a walk on song, maybe it's the song that you play to calm your nerves or whatever, but however you want to show up in that moment, pick a playlist or a song or whatever to play beforehand. I love that idea.

Francesca : 55:58

What's yours If you had a walk on song, what would it be? I think it depends on what it was walking on to.

Kate : 56:04

This was like totally silly, but I love the song Happy. It was one that I played over and over when I was running half marathons and stuff, and so it just has all this good vibe. It's a jam. What's yours? I have to know that.

Francesca : 56:22

I have two. One is let's Dance by David Bowie just a jam. Two is Nas made you look which is a stuff I probably thought. No, what's your theme song?

Mel: 56:35

Oh my God, I was just thinking of Rihanna's bitch, better have my money. That's probably really inappropriate. That's her salary negotiation.

Kate : 56:46

I don't know, I think it's good.

Francesca : 56:52

This has been so wonderful. Let's talk with you today. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us, my great pleasure.

Kate : 56:59

Thanks for having me.

Francesca : 57:08

Thanks so much for joining us today and subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriendscom. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Mel: 57:25

Thanks, friend.

Lawyer Up: Employment Law Essentials

Your Work Friends Podcast: Lawyer Up - Employment Law Essentials with Ryan Stygar

Sketchy contracts? Silent firings? Vibes are off? You might need a lawyer—and this episode is your warning light. Labor attorney Ryan Stygar joins us to talk about the biggest legal red flags at work and how to advocate for yourself without panic-Googling “can they do that??”

Listen or watch the full episode here

---

Ryan: 0:00

I got to tell you we handle so many sexual harassment cases. People just they're horny and it's a problem.

Francesca: 0:07

I don't know how else to say it, that's going to be the end of the trailer for this episode.

Mel: 0:26

Hi Francesca. Well, hello Mel, it's Eclipse Day. How are you feeling?

Francesca: 0:35

I'll tell you I'm feeling pretty good. You know, they talk about how everything's going to be completely crazy on Eclipse Day and your emotions will be high. I think I had that on Friday of last week. I think I'm like two days ahead of the astrological calendar for some reason. Yeah, how about you?

Mel: 0:46

That's good. I'm feeling pretty calm for eclipse day. I was expecting chaos, but I've got calm so I'll take it.

Mel: 0:52

I'll stay calm all day, every day, right, yeah, exactly. Well, friends, this is your work friends. I'm Mel hey and I am Francesca, and we're your two HR friends with no filter getting you through the work shit. Today, we want to introduce this fantastic episode Lawyering Up Essentials of Employment Law with Ryan Steiger. You might recognize him from TikTok or Instagram as the labor lawyer, and he joined us to emphasize his fight for workers' rights. Francesca, what'd you think about this?

Francesca: 1:26

This episode was equal parts eye-opening and just fricking hilarious. Ryan walked us through what you should be doing as an employee to protect yourself, what are some really typical cases that he sees and also, if you ever do need to lawyer up, how do you make sure you are in a great situation. We went into some nooks and crannies of cases which were just freaking hilarious, so I thoroughly enjoyed talking with Ryan.

Mel: 1:49

Yeah, same same. There's a red thread throughout the episode Ryan's personal story, which was a great tale about perseverance and self-worth. There's a really important message that anyone who listens to this will leave with here. It is our conversation with Ryan Steiger. Friends we have with us today. Ryan Steiger you might recognize him as the labor lawyer on a lot of social media channels like Instagram and TikTok. He's an employment lawyer who really cares about people and employee rights. He comes from Centurion Trial Attorneys. He's a podcaster too. He has a podcast called the Working Class. We highly recommend that you check that out to hear some of his great stories. We highly recommend that you check that out to hear some of his great stories. Ryan, what really drew us to you as a guest for our podcast is that ultimately, we see you as an educator and a protector of employees, and so we really appreciate you being here with us today.

Ryan: 2:58

Hey, thanks so much for having me, and what a flattering description. That's the way I think we all try to be, whether you're a workers' rights attorney like myself or one of the noble ethical HR reps that are out there just trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, our business is just trying to protect people, so thank you for having me on.

Mel: 3:15

Yeah, of course We'd love to hear your backstory. I know you've shared it online, but for some of our listeners who might not know or might not have seen you, what was your journey to becoming an employment attorney?

Ryan: 3:29

It's an unusual story and I hope it provides some comfort to anyone listening who thinks that they're on the wrong path. Maybe they're too old or they're afraid of making a change. It's never too late and you never make a mistake that can't be fixed. So my journey started really in my early 20s. I had dropped out of college at uc, santa barbara, and the reason I had dropped out was I had gone to college reluctantly in the first place. I didn't want to go to college. Being a lawyer was not on my radar. All I ever wanted to be male was a firefighter. That's the only thing I ever cared about was being a firefighter, and I was so obsessed with it that I was truly convinced that until I became a firefighter, my life just didn't matter. I was willing to sacrifice everything to get there. So I dropped out of UCSB. Fun fact when you drop out of a school, you're supposed to tell someone that you're leaving, apparently guess there's some paperwork involved that you should do.

Ryan: 4:28

Yeah, so I didn't do that, I just left you like irish to buy? Yes, yeah, and so here's the consequence of that, and it didn't bite me in the butt till about four and a half years later. I I got straight Fs that quarter because I just didn't show up. Funny thing about final exams is if you don't show up, you tend to fail. I was an idiot when I was 20 years old. Yeah.

Francesca: 4:52

So put a pin in that that came to bite me later.

Ryan: 4:59

So what had happened was that last semester, before I had dropped out, I had checked out entirely. One of the cruel ironies of living in Santa Barbara at the time was my apartment was right across the street from Santa Barbara County Fire Station 11. Every day I would see those big they're blue and white in Santa Barbara they're not red those blue and white trucks coming in and out. I thought, man, that's got to be me. I'm wasting time in college. What am I doing here? I'm wasting my life. I'm 20 years old. I'm running out of time. You always think you're so much older than you really are. So I'd started taking fire science courses online, got into an accelerated EMT program, got my EMT license, started volunteering with the San Diego County Fire Authority and as a reservist with the Valley Center Fire Protection District. I worked on an ambulance. I went to multiple trainings in fire academies, got hired with Cal Fire, and that was a four, four and a half year journey. And then 2014 was when I left.

Ryan: 5:55

So about 10 years ago is when I left the fire service, because sometime around year three of being a full-time firefighter that was how I made my money I realized I wasn't happy anymore. I realized that I had done really well in the fire service. I had a lot of fun, I enjoyed my work. I do miss it. I miss it dearly. And I was surrounded by bitter, angry, unhappy firefighters. People were there for the check and didn't care about firefighting they were. A lot of them were divorced, A lot of them were single and bitter about it. And then I was the new guy at the station, so some of them took it out on me. It was my first experience with a truly toxic, hostile work environment. Experience with a truly toxic, hostile work environment and it took some time. But it highlighted all the worst parts of firefighting the hard work, the early mornings, the time away from family and it really minimized the good parts the brotherhood, the service to community, the love of taking care of people. It just wasn't there.

Ryan: 6:58

While that was happening, I remember I went to this fire. I was walking up this hill with this captain. Captain was maybe 10 years, 15 years older than me, it's hard to say, but he wasn't that much older than me, but far ahead enough that I could see myself in him. We're hiking up this hill at a fire. The whole hike, Mel. All he did was complain about his bitch ex-wife. I'm doing air quotes right here His bitch ex-wife.

Mel: 7:23

Oh geez, Sounds lovely bitch ex -wife.

Ryan: 7:25

I'm doing air quotes right here. His bitch ex-wife oh geez, sounds lovely. Oh yeah, real happy fella, and he was just complaining about her. By the way, it was his second. He already screwed up one marriage and then he was on his way. It's just a mess. It's talking about how his kids don't appreciate him, they don't call and he pays this child support and he just couldn't wait to retire. My God, he was the most miserable man ever and he complained for maybe six hours.

Ryan: 7:44

I'm hiking up this hill on a hundred degree day. There's fire and all this guy's doing is complaining about how miserable he is. And I remember just looking at him and thinking, all right, I already started having some doubts because with fire, geographically you're limited. You can't move around a lot. It's really one job. You can do different things in the fire service, but I was just going to stay in the fire service. There wasn't as much variety. Then I had a bad station with bad dudes. I didn't have the brotherhood, I didn't have the friendship I was used to. There wasn't this joy of going and serving our community at that station. And then I'm sitting here looking at what I felt was a glimpse into my future If I didn't make a change and if you ever saw or read A Christmas Carol the Ghost of.

Ryan: 8:26

Christmas yes to Come it felt like that and I, oh my God, and I remember I got to the station and I was just like I got to make a change, I got to leave, I'm not going to be like that, captain. And I remember thinking I was so old. I was 24 and I was like I've ruined my life. I got one more shot at this, so I left. I finished my undergraduate degree, did that in about a year because I already had a bunch of credits, notwithstanding the failed semester. Now that did bite me.

Ryan: 8:51

When I went back, I was on academic probation because I was an at-risk student, because I had failed so many classes and I really had to work hard to bring my GPA up. But the dent in my GPA had consequences. I finished my undergrad, I applied to 13 law schools. I got into zero. I suspect that being on academic probation and having that dent in my GPA probably did not help.

Ryan: 9:18

When that happened, I spiraled into just depression. A mess, got an office job for a few months. I was trying to get into law schools. Nothing was working out. I took a landscaping job and I started driving for Uber to try to make ends meet. And then it wasn't until I was 27, maybe three years after I'd left the fire service long detour that one law school finally said yes, only one, only one law. To be clear to anyone who looks at me and says, oh my gosh, attorney Ryan, he's this famous lawyer, he owns a law firm, he's making all this money, he's just got it all figured out.

Ryan: 9:53

I really took a long, winding tour to get here and I bumped into a lot of dead ends and really, at 27, which many people listening at 27 may be considering law school Maybe they're thinking it's too late for you, absolutely not. At 27, I had maybe $30. Maybe I had an old Toyota Camry. I just felt like the biggest loser. I had pushed my friends away because I was so unhappy, I was lonely and finally one school said yes, and then I went to law school. I did well in law school. It really felt right right away. It was. It really felt right right away. It was one of the first experiences I had where making friends was easy.

Mel: 10:30

Yeah.

Ryan: 10:31

And that was my first sign that I was in the right place Graduated, did very well in law school. I opened my practice Centurion Trial Attorneys right when I graduated and the rest is history. Now we're 10 teammates strong at this practice. We fight for workers' rights every day. I put information out online to educate people about their rights. I only represent clients in California, but I try to make content for all 50 states because everyone deserves to know about their rights at work.

Ryan: 10:58

And yeah, that's how I got here. And I want to really emphasize how messy my road was, how many low points there were, how the complete lack of a master plan. Yeah, there was no master plan. There was just a guy who realized he was unhappy, tried making changes, failed epically over and over again until finally the stars aligned and was there some luck and some privilege involved? Absolutely, but what I share with people is if you keep pushing, there's no guarantee things are going to work out. I wish there was, but there's not. We live in the real world. But if you quit, then it's guaranteed it's not going to work out. So that's how I got here and I know it was a long story, but I hope someone is listening who's going through something similar and says you know what Attorney Ryan looks like he's doing? Okay, sounds like he went through something similar. I went through. I'll just keep pushing. I hope that's what people take away.

Mel: 11:52

I hope so too. I think it's an excellent story and it's real. I think more people have an experience like yours than not, and it doesn't get discussed enough, francesca, and I talk about this all the time, how it's bullshit that at 18, you're supposed to know what you're, what you want to do with your life, and have it all figured out, and it's unrealistic. And I appreciate the detour that you took us on because I think that's an important story to tell and I hope it inspires others yeah.

Ryan: 12:19

Yeah, it's tough going through that, especially being 18, 19, 20, heck, even at 27, which is when I got into a law school and then started at 28. I think part of what made everything so hard figuring out what I wanted to do was I didn't know who I was. I didn't know who I was. I knew things I liked doing, but I hadn't figured out, fundamentally, what is it that is important to me, about my values, about my goals, about the things that I prioritize?

Mel: 12:50

Yeah, what would you say are the core values that led you to becoming? Specifically, there's a lot of different areas that you could have went into for practice. What were the values that led you to employment law?

Ryan: 13:02

Empathy, being a working class guy who had to work very hard for my money and frankly, the money I made wasn't great Understanding that the amount of money a person earns is not at all a reflection of their value as a human being, it's not a reflection of their intelligence and it damn sure is not a reflection of how hard they work, because the hardest working people you'll ever meet get paid in peanuts. I mean so empathy, being in those people's shoes and understanding what it feels like to fight so hard to make ends meet and then some dipshit boss wants to fire you because, god forbid, you're having a kid and you need some time off to take care of that kid. God forbid, your knee gets hurt working and you need an accommodation to recover and they want to cut your hours.

Mel: 13:50

Fuck that, sorry, but you can share on this podcast. Oh, thank God, we are not.

Francesca: 13:57

We have a warning label. Oh, good yeah.

Ryan: 14:00

Yeah, empathy for sure. I think it's very hard to be a good, true workers' rights lawyer if you don't really understand what it means to be working class California that, frankly, I did not know existed. I had been told my whole life. You're in the greatest country on earth. Even the poorest in America is better off than some of the just average people in other countries. I am telling you from experience there are parts of this country where there is no material difference in quality of life between that person here in the United States and someone in where you might imagine people are so wrong about foreign countries. What you might imagine.

Ryan: 14:46

Life in Baghdad is like the violence, the uncertainty. We don't have the Taliban or Al Qaeda out here, but we have gangs, and we have gangs that visit people's homes and extract money and services from them against their will. We have a severe lack of basic resources and basic services for people. So part of what changed me was just observing those things.

Ryan: 15:08

As a firefighter I realized, look, america has potential to be the greatest country on earth, but we're not. We leave a lot of people behind and it's not because they're lazy, it's not because they're mooching off the government, it's because they got dealt a really bad hand and they were not given any viable path out of that hand. Where is this all going? This is part of why I think that pushed me into being a workers' rights lawyer, because people who go to work, they're there because they're trying to earn an honest living, they're trying to be somewhere better than they are right now, and they're doing it with their work. The very least they're entitled to is to be paid for all hours work, be paid a decent, livable wage, not get groped by your boss while you're at work, not get assaulted with racial slurs, just having some decency at work. So all of those factors together, mel and Francesca, they conspired to make me the very loudmouthed workers' right advocate. You see today, we're very glad to see it.

Francesca: 16:16

Employment law Give us the third grade definition of what the hell is it?

Ryan: 16:26

So employment law is actually a very broad umbrella and we can broadly think of it as the relationship between employers and employees. Now it breaks off into many subdivisions after that. So we start at the top, the relationship between employer and employee. The next two umbrellas in employment law it's employer side and employee side. Just roughly we can think of it this way On employer side you're going to see the big defense firms Ogletree, deacons, jackson, lewis, gordon, reese, fisher, phillips. These are all big law firms, big, huge corporate law firms that are similar to what you might see on suits. Suits is not an accurate representation of what law firms look like, but it's not yeah.

Ryan: 17:05

I know, but if but to the lay person who's thinking oh, big, fancy corporate office like those big defense firms call on that and their job is they defend those employers against lawsuits, whether they be big wage and hour class actions, discrimination claims. Basically they fight people like me. They also assist with things like compliance and labor relations. They might assist with negotiation between an employer and a union or just complying with different labor codes in different states. So that's one side. The other side is the employee side, the worker's right side, as I like to say. That's my side, okay, that's my side, okay. And our job is we make sure that the employer is treating the employee in a legal and ethical manner, paid the appropriate wages, be free from discrimination, free from harassment, free from unsafe and toxic work conditions, be compensated for injuries sustained on the job.

Ryan: 18:11

That's the side I work on, that big umbrella of employment law. It's a very big umbrella and I'm not here to say that one side is better than the other. Obviously, I'm very biased in favor of workers. I'm not a judge. It is not my job to be neutral. It is my job to stand up for the team I chose and I chose the workers' rights team. But the other side, the defense team, they do important work, they do compliance and they help. Employers ideally have good work practices. Now, unfortunately, I meet the other side in court where they are fighting me, so they feel like the bad guys most of the time and I definitely have popped off on some opposing counsels before. But anyway, those are the two big realms.

Francesca: 18:51

In addition to the folks that are your big, mega firms that are representing employers, do companies actually have internal lawyers as well?

Ryan: 18:59

Yeah, they'll have in-house and corporate counsel. Now the kinds of defense side lawyers I come up against a lot of variety. Now the big firms I see most often the ones I listed before, the big law firms I see most often. You'll also see some smaller boutique firms. Frankly, on a case-by-case basis we do defense work too. If the employer is aligned with us ethically and it's a good case, we will defend them. So smaller firms happen Occasionally. We'll go up against their internal counsel, their corporate counsel, but by the time we start filing lawsuits they refer that out to a real litigation firm. Oh, interesting.

Francesca: 19:37

Yeah.

Ryan: 19:38

Yeah, your in-house counsel, you can see, is like a general practitioner or maybe your primary care physician, and the minute things go to litigation, a lot of times they'll say, ok, I'm going to refer you out to the litigation people.

Francesca: 19:51

OK, it's been interesting sitting in HR for as long as Mel and I have been in it. Right, we've seen things like anti-sexual harassment coming out. Anti-bullying Right, you're seeing things like pay transparency coming up. Do you see it changing? Do you see this becoming more towards the workers' rights angle? Do you see this evolving? Yeah, you're shaking your head. I like tell me what the next like couple of years looks like.

Ryan: 20:12

It's so tough, francesca, it is such a mixed bag right now, and I struggle here because I don't want to be hyper-partisan, but something really funky is in the air these days. And hyper-partisan, but something really funky is in the air these days, and it may be because it's an election year, it may be because Donald is trying to come to power again. There's a lot of things going on. What has happened in the past four or five years is we are seeing very clear friction between employers and employees. Employers did not take care of their people during the COVID pandemic. They laid everyone off at the first sign of trouble. They overburdened who was left, did not give them the pay raises they need. They denied people sick leave when they got sick with COVID, they didn't treat people with any sense of dignity if a family member was sick or passed from it, and people are still bitter about it. Also, let's not forget that these companies shut offices down, sent everyone home, had them work from home, and we realized for the first time oh my God, I can get all this done here at home. I don't have to burn money and time with a commute, I don't have to take time away from my family. I can go to the doctor and take care of my health and still get all my work done. And now the employers are punishing remote employees for a decision the employer made four years ago. Mind you, they're punishing you for their choices With these return to office mandates, dell computers got into some trouble because now they're saying that you can stay remote if you want, but you won't be considered for a promotion for a promotion. And it makes you ask what's the whole point of coming to the office, when Dell's own CEO said three years ago that if you are depending on return to office mandates for office culture, you're doing something wrong. Complete 180.

Ryan: 21:53

So where does this all lead us? We have this friction between employer and employee. Because of events of the past four years, people are really reconsidering their relationship with work. Yeah, on top of that, we have a very active and very disjointed Republican Party which control about half of our state's legislatures.

Ryan: 22:15

And somehow, some way in the Trump campaign and the MAGA movement and the Republican Party, workers' rights became woke, and woke became this buzzword to galvanize voters in an election year. And so we are seeing we saw it in Georgia, we're seeing it in Florida, we saw it in Indiana, republican-controlled state legislatures stripping away workers' protections, particularly in the area of child labor. Why are we making it so? 14, 15, 16-year-olds can be required to work with dangerous machines, required to work overtime, required to work during school hours. So please pressure your representatives if that's what's happening in your state. The other thing we're seeing we saw an attempt at it in Florida I don't know if it's successful yet and we saw a successful attempt in Texas to bar ban, preempt, prevent municipal level and county level governments from enacting meal, rest and heat protections for workers. So unreal.

Ryan: 23:16

Yeah. And then we look at Missouri, looking at eliminating all taxes for corporations when one in seven people from Missouri live at or below the poverty line. What the hell are reducing those taxes going to do except hurt workers? We have a patchwork of values in this country and it's really tough right now as a workers' rights lawyer, to see the places where we are losing ground, primarily in red states. And it's frustrating because when you think of the average Republican voter, I think of a working class blue collar person and I don't understand how the Republican party has twisted itself in the past few years to where suddenly, workers protections are the enemy. Now that was a long route. You're saying where are things going? And I apologize for the partisanship here, but we have to call a spade. And if that's your party of choice, I'm begging you call your representatives and tell them look, not everything that corporate donors want you to do is a good idea. Stripping child labor protections there's really no excuse for that shit. Vetoing a minimum wage increase in your state because you say it's not needed Go fuck yourself.

Ryan: 24:30

We have states where workers' rights are gaining ground. California is looking at adopting I call it the Portugal rule, where they're talking about protections, where you don't have to answer your employer's calls and emails after working hours, where we have the new minimum wage law for fast food workers and, yes, it's controversial. Was there some funny business with that? Let me dial it back. This was an interesting one. So California enacted a $20 an hour minimum wage for fast food employees Now, not all fast food employees, only fast food employees of major, major brands with 60 or more locations. So that eliminates a fairly successful mom and pop. If you have Mel's Diner and you've got five locations, you don't have to pay 20 bucks an hour. Okay, funny business with that one. For some reason, panera Bread was exempted and then it came out that Panera Bread made some donations to Governor Gavin Newsom's campaign, so everyone's pretty pissed off about that.

Ryan: 25:26

And then, of course, the companies did what we expected they would do. They raised prices and it's a problem because companies were cranking up prices on anyone before the increase and it's not like they're just breaking even. We're not talking about Mel's Diner with five locations, we're talking Kentucky Fried Chicken, burger King, big companies here. Their profit margins are fine, they can afford to pay better wages to workers, but they're looking at their quarterly earnings report and they want to make sure their margins go up every quarter. So they're going to raise prices no matter what. But the minimum wage increase gave them an excuse to say see, we told you all along, enacting workers' rights protections hurts the economy. It's bad for business.

Ryan: 26:09

Francesca, that was a very long-winded way of saying what's going on with workers' rights in this country right now. It is the most active battlefield we have seen since 1933. We are very much in early New Deal territory and workers' rights advocates like myself are getting very fired up because we think that the results of this election, which political party and which ideology gets to control legislative activity for the next four or five, six years, is going to be very important. What I do is fundamentally political, and which political party controls the legislature, be it federal or in your state, has a huge impact on what kind of worker protections we have and how effective our agencies, who we entrust with enforcing those protections, are going to be. So I do get a lot of people who get upset. They say, ryan, why are you always talking politics, it's. What do you think the point of politics is? And, as a workers' rights lawyer, rights don't come from thin air. They come from laws that we put down on books.

Francesca: 27:14

Yeah, yeah, it makes absolute sense.

Ryan: 27:17

It makes absolute sense. Yeah.

Mel: 27:24

And there's a lot of just shit happening in this space, like the child labor thing killed me when we covered it a few months ago. We read a 15-year-old lost his arm right recently and they found him working in a slaughterhouse. It's just killed me. Yeah, all these stories.

Ryan: 27:35

The poultry and butchering industries are notorious for this. I'm not going to name any specific companies for reasons obvious.

Ryan: 27:42

Right, of course. But yeah, we do see a lot of child labor violations in the poultry and butchering and meatpacking industries. A lot of them are immigrant children, a lot of them are children without documentation and it's such a shame that it's been so politicized. My opponents truly think it doesn't matter, because those kids are not white, they weren't born here. They quote unquote shouldn't be here in the first place. This angry, vengeful idea of putting people into different buckets, of who deserves more protections for all human beings, right. So anyway, yeah, it's tough right now, but I don't want to be doom and gloom. I hope people are a little outraged because that might motivate you to research your candidates and before just knee jerking on a party line oh, this person's a Democrat. They must be about workers' rights. Do research the candidates you're voting for and what job they are going to do. You know, don't be putting people in power who say they care about workers' rights but behind closed doors they're accepting lobby money from Panera. Yeah exactly.

Ryan: 28:49

You want to make sure? Yeah, from Panera, exactly yeah. But also do take hope. There are people working very hard to fight back. I'm not the only workers' rights lawyer in the country. I'm one of a very wide network of workers' rights lawyers. There are thousands of us and we are working very hard to stand up for workers. The ACLU is standing up, for workers' rights and civil rights go hand in hand. There are politicians who are brave and speak up and push back, and then on top of that, we have advocacy groups, the side of standing up for people who are just trying to pay their rent, pay their groceries, pay their medical bills and have some left over to take their family to Chili's on a Friday night. We have a strong alliance of people fighting for those people.

Mel: 29:44

Getting down to the employee and the day-to-day shots you're at work. What are three things everyone should be doing as an employee?

Ryan: 29:53

There's a few things that come to mind. The first is I tell people, just because you're an employee doesn't mean you're not an entrepreneur in some way. All of us are self-employed truly we all are. Now it may be you only have one client and that client is your employer. And what do you sell them? Your time, your expertise and your labor. You should be tracking your hours at work. You should be tracking the duties and the tasks you complete at work. Don't just show up and go into automaton mode. And the reason this is so important is because, as a lawyer, I track my time, the I don't bill my clients for my time. We're contingency, but I build the insurance and the employer and all that for my time. I get paid from them, but I have to track the work I do. Why would you do any different as an employee? Track your hours, track the tasks you are doing and do a quarterly audit, check in and be like, hey, my duties are growing, but my pay is staying the same. That's going to give you an opportunity to talk to your client, your employer, and say, hey, my duties have grown here I can show you, because I tracked it. I would like a raise that is commensurate with the extra duties I am doing, you know. So that's the first tip Track your time, track your duties and remember that, fundamentally, we're all self-employed and you need to get paid appropriately for your work.

Ryan: 31:13

The second one if you have a problem at work, do a report in writing. One of the biggest mistakes I made in the fire service is I did have a back injury at an incident and everyone told me that if you admit that you were hurt, if anyone knows that you're weak, you're soft, you're going to lose your job. You're going to lose your job and there's going to be nothing you can do. Those people were not lawyers and they did not have my best interest at heart. I wish I had reported it. We do have protections. I would have gotten the medical care I needed and my back would probably be in better shape now than it is.

Ryan: 31:45

So when something happens, you are touched in a way you don't like being touched. You are threatened, you are treated with disrespect and you suspect the reason was because you are a woman, because you are gay, because you were born in Lebanon, because you are an immigrant, because you are pregnant. If you suspect you're being bullied for those kind of reasons. Report it, but do it in writing and keep a copy for yourself. Never report a work, injury or suspected harassment over the phone or face to face, and don't trust it on a company server, because I promise they're going to delete it the minute they get the chance. Report it in writing, keep a copy for yourself. That's your second tip. Your third tip is more emotional. There's a story I like telling people, if you'll indulge me.

Ryan: 32:32

There was this fantastic violinist he's still around Joshua Bell. He's the LeBron James of violin. Basically, he is the guy. Child prodigy premiered at Carnegie Hall at 17 years old, won all of these awards. He performed at the White House. He performed with Hans Zimmer. His music has been featured in Hollywood blockbusters like Angels and Demons with Tom Hanks. He's a big deal and if you want to go to one of his concerts you better be ready to whip out a huge amount of money for a ticket. He's a big deal.

Ryan: 33:02

The Washington Post in 2007, 2008, wanted to do a social experiment. They thought what if we took this extraordinary, world-class prodigy musician and took him out of these golden highfalutin opera houses and put him in a DC metro subway? What would happen Now? The theory was that it would just grind the whole place to a halt to put this legendary musician there. They were really curious, so they filmed him for 45 minutes. He put on a little disguise, put on a little baseball cap and a light jacket and he played for 45 minutes. Here's what happened.

Ryan: 33:39

No one gave a flying fuck about this guy in that Metro. It was sad. A thousand people passed by Seven. Seven stopped to listen to the music. Of the seven, only one even recognized to the music of the seven. Only one even recognized him. Only one person said holy shit, that's Joshua Bell.

Ryan: 33:55

Everyone else just thought oh hey, a guy playing violin, that's nice. Must be a tough time for him. We'll tip him some money. By the way, he made $54 in tips down there. For a guy who's used to making 80,000 bucks a night, that's not very good. This guy was a pretty high ticket performer. What's the lesson here? The lesson is no matter how extraordinary you are, no matter how talented or worthy or wonderful, if you are in the wrong place, you will be treated as ordinary, invisible or even disposable. I hope you all know that j Bell didn't leave that DC Metro station thinking, wow, I'm a loser, no one cares about my music. I'm only worth $54. I didn't define him. He knew who he was. It was just an experiment. The point is you can never allow the way a toxic work environment or a manager or the rate you are being paid to affect the way you view yourself. You wouldn't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. You should never judge yourself or your worth by the way a workplace treats you.

Francesca: 34:55

One more time for the cheap seats in the back.

Ryan: 34:59

Never judge yourself by the way a workplace treats you, because, I'll say it one more time, no matter how wonderful you are, if you're in the wrong place, you're going to be treated like you're ordinary disposable, invisible. We see it that was my journey in.

Francesca: 35:09

If you're in the wrong place, you're going to be treated like you're ordinary disposable, invisible.

Ryan: 35:11

We see it. That was my journey in the fire service and I want to be very clear. I made great, dear friends in the fire service. I still keep in touch with many of them and most of my career was great. I ended up in one bad firehouse with bad leadership and bad coworkers. It was a bad mix of people and that was my DC metro station. That station I really took it personally. There was a time in that station where my stomach hurt all the time and I thought am I a bad firefighter? Am I not a man? Am I not a good person? Am I not worthy of friendship and brotherhood? Am I really only worth 1650 an hour? That's what I was paid. By the way, as a firefighter, is that really all I'm worth? I let it affect me. By the way, as a firefighter, is that really all I'm worth? I let it affect me. But now I can look back and say, yeah, I was just in the wrong place.

Mel: 35:55

It's a great message and a good reminder for everybody. Like, your environment will make or break you, and you've got to choose to not let it break you if it's the wrong place.

Ryan: 36:04

Yeah, and there's a million reasons not to leave. I hear it all the time. People say oh, you're coming from a point of privilege, Ryan. People need their money. It's not so easy just to leave. What you're saying is easier said than done. I've even had people get mad and say what you're telling people to do is dangerous. It's like a toxic workplace will kill you faster than smoking will. And, yes, it is harder to leave than to stay. It is easier said than done. What's your alternative? You can take the advice or not. If you're in a bad place, make a change and maybe it'll work out. But if you stay where you are, it's just going to get worse.

Francesca: 36:40

I think it takes a lot of people saying that message around this is not acceptable. Move and you have options, you don't need to stay. That messaging is relatively recent and I think a lot of it really is, and there are many times we've talked about toxic work environment. We get the same feedback around. You're coming from a place of privilege. People need to work. Believe me, I get that, mel gets that, but I've had jobs that have literally almost destroyed me.

Francesca: 37:07

Destroyed me, yeah, I think a lot of people have. So I'm like, the more we can be like, not acceptable. If you're in a train station, get yourself to your Carnegie Hall.

Ryan: 37:18

I like that. I'm going to steal that. We're being recorded so I guess I can't. We'll send you the clip.

Francesca: 37:26

It is documented. No but right.

Ryan: 37:29

I love that, Francesca. I know I'm the one being interviewed, but I'm really curious Is there a specific work environment that you recall where you thought, wow, this is destroying my health?

Francesca: 37:39

Yes.

Ryan: 37:40

What was it?

Francesca: 37:41

It was a work environment where I felt I was getting sabotaged. It was pretty clear that they did not want me there.

Ryan: 37:48

I had that with the guy, but God, he was the worst guy in the world, man, and he would do that to the sabotage thing, and this is part of the many things that pushed me out. He would play pranks on me that were beyond not funny because they put me in jeopardy. He liked to hide my radio or turn off my radio, and the reason he would do that is because he wanted to make it look like I was not responsible, not responding to calls, not paying attention to things. He wanted to make me look bad. He would hide keys to things. I would stock the engine with stuff and he would remove it and then go tell the captain oh, steiger's not doing his stuff. But that was all stuff that could have gotten me seriously injured or killed.

Ryan: 38:25

But why do you think you got singled out, Francesca?

Francesca: 38:28

Because I'm an asshole. Yeah, I just look at your face and I say asshole.

Ryan: 38:33

You've got a punchable face yeah, I'm kidding.

Francesca: 38:37

I typically get brought into orgs to make big change and people don't like that.

Ryan: 38:42

You do not being the change agent. You're going to be a lightning rod for controversy. Everyone's reasons will be different. I know the reasons he targeted me is I think he had some mental health issues. He was a deeply troubled man. He had a relationship and badly his dog had died. He was just really unhappy. But on top of that, I think, he was mentally unstable. He hazed a firefighter and that firefighter ended up dying a few years it was maybe four or five years after I had left. Basically, they were training in the heat. This guy was exhibiting signs of heat illness and he just kept pushing him and saying you keep going, you need to push harder, not a leader. So why was I targeted by this guy? He just saw someone who was lower ranked than him, didn't have as much pull and he could take out his aggressive, sadistic Tendencies on me.

Ryan: 39:32

What's the point of that story? Two points, really. The first is you cannot take it personal. I think that's been a theme for the past 20 minutes here. It wasn't because I was not tough enough to be a firefighter. It wasn't because I was a bad person. It was because this was a sick individual who just saw a convenient target the new guy. That's the only reason it was happening to me, but back then I took it personal. That's the first lesson. The second lesson is you have to make a change.

Francesca: 40:00

Yeah, when you look at any kind of organization whether it's a corporation, government agency, political academia. We see this in academia, the woman that just died by suicide because she was allegedly getting bullied by her president bullying in academia is rent.

Ryan: 40:14

I do a lot of consultations academia universities. They might be number one, tied with hospitals, for bullying I, I fucking believe it.

Ryan: 40:23

I believe it, especially when you get people in there that are tenured I don't know what the policy effects of removing tenure would be, but it would probably help with the bullying situation Because I got to tell you every week I see maybe three or four. We're a very high volume practice. We get 200 to 250 inquiries a day, people seeking help. It's a tough time to be working class in the United States. It's a tough time where it affects people's self-esteem. It's another thing where it's easier said than done. Oh, just don't take it personally. Wow, I never thought of that. Thank you, great tip. Just don't let it bother me. Never thought of that.

Ryan: 40:59

Part of the reason it bothers people so much is the powerlessness. As human beings we like to think we have agency, some control over our lives, we have some dignity that we can live with. And in the workplace, when your paycheck and your reputation are on the line and there's a hierarchy where someone can kick you and you're not allowed to kick back, that fucks with your head. But yeah, that's why it's so hard for people, because what do you do when you're getting pushed and you can't push back? Yeah, push back.

Francesca: 41:34

I am curious about those people that they're experiencing something at work. They're documenting it and from an employment law perspective, I feel like I'm getting ex-bullied, sexually harassed, whatever. How do I move through that?

Ryan: 41:47

Oh man, that opens up a few things. So let's first start with bullying. Like I said before, bullying by itself is not illegal. It becomes illegal when the bullying yeah, we're going to see there's various initiatives for that. That could be a whole other podcast episode, because where is the line between hey, my boss told me to do my job at my job and I'm?

Ryan: 42:06

just a dickhead and I don't like being bossed around. Or hey, my boss is actually a predator and I need help. Where is that line? It's tough when you deal with subjective things like what is bullying. Fortunately we have an objective measure. That is illegal and that's a hostile work environment. It's not the same as bullying. A hostile work environment is severe or pervasive abuse directed at you because of a protected activity or a protected characteristic. Severe legal definition.

Ryan: 42:35

It's so outrageous it has no place in civil society. Twisting a subordinate's nipple outrageous has no place in civil society. Calling someone the n-word outrageous has no place in civil society. Or it can be pervasive. Doesn't have to be some crazy earth-shattering moment like having your nipple twisted. It can be something more subtle that happens over a long period of time. That's pervasive.

Ryan: 42:58

Great examples I've seen are managers staring at an assistant's breasts and, over and over, just cannot look at anything but her breasts, checking out her butt, you know, eyeing her up and down, making her feel really uncomfortable. She speaks up and he says it's a compliment You're beautiful. Did he touch her? No, are any of those instances by themselves so outrageous? They have no place in civil society? Depends on who you ask. But if we did a poll, it would probably skew towards no. This is just rude behavior, but it happened over a long period of time. So well, this is just rude behavior, but it happened over a long period of time, so it became a hostile work environment. What do those things all have in common?

Ryan: 43:36

The abuse is motivated by a protected activity or a protected characteristic. If someone is physically touching you at work, it doesn't matter if they're sexually attracted to you, it doesn't matter if they're the same sex, it doesn't matter if they were just joking. We can typically call that some form of sexual harassment. Hands off your nipples, don't stare at my butt. This is sexual harassment. N-word Obviously not okay. You would think it would go away in 2024. It's not. I have a case where I'm dealing with it right now, motivated by your race. Now here's the other thing the abuser. It's still illegal if they're wrong. I've seen this happen a few times. I've had a client where they thought she was Asian. She was not Asian, she was white. But they would just make a lot of. I can't say what they said on here. It's messed up, but they would make a lot of Asian jokes to her that were not funny, not cool. She wasn't even Asian, but it's still valid because they're attacking her on the you are.

Ryan: 44:42

There's a rumor that men are not protected under these laws. You are, your race, your gender, all those things are protected, even if they're perceived Now that's a hostile work environment. We took a long detour. That is illegal. Being targeted for those reasons is illegal. Now what do you do? You cannot hold your employer liable legally, financially, for harassment retaliation, legally, financially, for harassment retaliation, discrimination if they do not know or have reason to know that the abuse is occurring. So if you're being targeted by a coworker, a peer, someone at your level, until you make a report, there's no liability on the company's side in most situations. Now if the person attacking you is a manager with hiring and firing power, in many states the liability is automatic, but still you're going to need to make some kind of report to make it stick.

Ryan: 45:27

Hr treat them like you would treat the police. Don't be engaging in unsolicited chit chat with them, don't I'm telling you as a lawyer don't go up to cop cars and start talking about your day. Every police interaction is potentially dangerous, even if you are innocent. Okay, don't be going up to HR and telling them about all your issues. They are not your school counselor. They are not your therapist. They're not your buddy. They're definitely not your lawyer. They are there to be a conduit for workplace disputes and keep them under control. So the business functions and when lawsuits start to fly, they're there to protect the company from you.

Ryan: 46:08

Even the most kindest, caring, most empathetic, wonderful HR rep ultimately works for the company and it's not their job to tell you how to win a lawsuit against their boss. It's not their job and it's not fair to ask them to do that anyway. But if you do not communicate with them, the employer can simply say we had no idea this person was twisting your nipples. We had no idea this person was making Asian hate jokes at you. We have no idea. And so you don't win any compensation or any justice for that. So you've got to report to HR. Keep your communications objective, neutral, professional, on point. Do not burden HR with long-winded just every problem under the sun. Keep it short. Hi Mel, I am writing the report. Harassment I am experiencing from my supervisor, john Smith. On April 5th at 4 or 5 PM he told me I have beautiful Oriental eyes and slapped my butt. What can the company do to protect me in this situation. I like that sentence.

Francesca: 47:00

What can the company do to protect me in this situation? I like that sentence. What can the company do to protect me in this situation?

Ryan: 47:04

Yeah, those facts come from a real case. It's insane. It's insane, I get. I do get told sometimes not a lot that people think I am unneeded, like they're. Like what does an employment lawyer even do? It's 2024. This stuff doesn't happen, I am telling you. A person looked at my client, said you have beautiful Oriental eyes and touched her butt. They really think that there's no consequences for shit. It's in the stuff. I see will make your head pop it's all that lead paint it might be in all fairness.

Ryan: 47:33

Our parents are full of lead and asbestos. We're full of microplastics there you go got their problems but yeah, we talked about hr, we talked about that and then, yeah, the, the reporting is key and when you make that report, keep it short or objective. The script I offered works just fine. Save a copy for yourself.

Francesca: 47:48

Save a copy for yourself. Documentation all day, every day. They will delete it.

Ryan: 47:51

They're not supposed to. It's spoliation, I know it. Oh, this lawyer doesn't know what he's talking about. That's illegal to destroy evidence.

Mel: 48:04

Yeah, no shit. Anyway, it's illegal to break the speed limit. Did that on the way here. When should people reach out to a lawyer? When's the right time?

Ryan: 48:10

It depends on a few situations. Here's how workers' rights lawyers like myself work. Now, it's a unique specialty. It's not like personal injury, where all consultations are free. Different employment lawyers might charge fees for the consultation, but you don't have to go to the only employment lawyer you find. You can call multiple offices and some will give you a free case evaluation. We do free case evaluations at my office. Now you can't take an hour of my time for free, but we'll take a look and we'll let you know if we see something. It doesn't hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to ask hey, do I have a case here? Hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to ask, hey, do I have a case here? Now, if you need advice because you're in a tricky situation good one I see very often is you want to take FMLA leave, you have a baby coming and you're not sure what your rights are and your employer is acting funny about it Talk to an employment lawyer because in a lot of those cases we'll give you 30, 40 minutes of advice for free. We'll say look, these are your rights. Here's how we recommend you. Talk to them and if they retaliate, if things get worse, come on back. We'll sign you.

Ryan: 49:08

So when is the right time? I don't think it's ever too early, because what's the consequence If you're getting a free case evaluation? Worst they say is, hey, we're not going to sign. You Talk to a couple other lawyers to be sure. If things are really bad and a lawyer wants 150, 200 bucks, you're going to have to weigh whether that's worth it. But there's also offices like mine where if we see writing on the wall we'll be like look, we know that if this gets worse you'll come to us to sign as a client, so we'll give you free advice until you need it. So anyway, that was a very unhelpful lawyerly response. I could have just said it depends.

Francesca: 49:42

It depends, I was going to it depends, it depends. It answers everything.

Mel: 49:47

No, I think it's good. It's good because it's just have the consultation.

Ryan: 49:50

If you're uncertain, have the consultation, have the conversation and employment lawyers, workers' rights lawyers as I like to say, we're really accessible to people. The majority of my clients are unemployed people. The majority of my clients are unemployed no figure, wrongful termination, uh. Another big majority are low income minimum wage, just above minimum wage. There's this small segment of people. Hop in my comments, be like oh, don't listen to this guy. He just wants you to sue your employer even though he knows you won't win, because he wants your money. That is not how it works. I don't get paid unless we win, and and I only get a percentage of what we win. So it's not like I'm going to take the first low ball they throw at you. My job is to get maximum justice for you.

Mel: 50:31

When I was a paralegal, I used to help with a lot of disability cases and I was like oh yeah, we didn't charge people, it was a percentage. It was some random like 33.33.

Ryan: 50:39

Yeah, that's how we are. At my office it's 33.3 for most cases. It varies actually. So, the most common is 33.3. Workers' comp it's like 15. Yeah, class action, it's 25. Trial like the big show 40. Yep, that makes sense and some people get mad and they're like how can you charge so much money?

Mel: 51:00

It's time effort research the courts are accessible to everyone.

Ryan: 51:04

You can represent yourself and see how it goes. It's not like we don't bring any value to the table here and the client always walks away with the lion's share of recovery anyway.

Mel: 51:14

Yeah absolutely and.

Ryan: 51:14

I'm not trying to say that we're the best people in the world, but we front all the expenses. I have one case man. I put 15K into it before we even filed because I got expert witness reports and investigations, all that stuff. It makes justice accessible because for that client where it was $15,000 of prep work just to file it's a really unique case where we needed some expert opinions and some investigation before we got in. She couldn't afford that.

Ryan: 51:39

She couldn't even afford the $435 filing fee. That's what it costs to file in California Superior Court. Anyway, she couldn't afford that, certainly couldn't afford these experts. So by saying, hey, I'll take your case on contingency, yes, I'm going to take a percentage, yes, it's a big percentage, but all the way up along you've got a world-class law firm with very experienced attorneys in your corner and we're paying all the expenses for you. All in the way.

Mel: 52:03

Yeah, the risk. You're taking out a lot of the risk up front, plus this is your wheelhouse, yeah, and if we lose that case, she's not getting a bill.

Ryan: 52:10

I just eat that cost. Right, you eat the cost. You're taking on the whole risk, yeah.

Mel: 52:14

I think people need to know that, because it's not a greedy business.

Ryan: 52:17

And the TLDR of the thing is justice. Justice is accessible. You don't worry about the cost. Talk to a few different lawyers and if all of them want a fee up front, if none of them seem like they want your case, it may be possible that what happened to you was unfair, but maybe not legally actionable.

Mel: 52:35

Yeah, that's a good call out. Yeah, something to look out for. What are some signs? You just called out one thing If they're trying to get all of those fees up front, obviously your case might not be as strong as possible. It's an orange flag.

Ryan: 52:52

Yeah, are there red flags people should look out for? Yeah, if no attorney wants your case, it's because you may not have a case, but if no lawyer wants your case, there's a reason. Yeah, and it's not that you're a bad person. It's not that you did anything wrong. It's that the United States and the global sphere of industrialized quote unquote advanced economies has some of the weakest worker protections of any country who we would consider a peer. There's just there's some things that are unfair. They are objectively wrong what happened to you but not legally actionable.

Mel: 53:33

We have something that we like to call rapid round.

Ryan: 53:35

I'm down to clown, let's do it.

Mel: 53:37

All right, let's do it. What is your funniest case?

Ryan: 53:42

My funniest case. Oh man, you know, by its nature what I do is not particularly funny. I will say oh my God. It is funny to me when married men hit on my clients and they think that because they deleted the text messages on their phone that the text messages are gone. They are not gone, we have them. It is very funny to me when we get into a deposition and read text messages aloud, oh, from married late 40s, early 50s, 60 year old men texting my 20 something year old clients of all the things they'd like to do, and then, after they're done reading that and just say Mr Johnson, are you married?

Francesca: 54:26

Yeah, oh, my God.

Ryan: 54:30

Do you have a? Do you have a good?

Francesca: 54:31

referrals for a divorce attorney. Yeah, I do.

Ryan: 54:34

I do, I do. I say hey, yeah, yeah, I got it. Why is it funny to me? You're a pervert. You're picking on my client. I don't care about you. You can explain to the missus why you're going to a deposition today.

Mel: 54:49

Gosh, a friend of mine, worked for, and when she showed up to his house to drop some stuff off at his house, this old perv opened up the door naked, completely naked, telling her she needed to carry this thing in. So she had no choice but to come in. And he's just standing there talking to her naked for 15 minutes.

Ryan: 55:13

Yeah, I'd have gotten her a bag for that.

Francesca: 55:15

Let me get this straight If someone shows you their junk, you automatically have a case right.

Ryan: 55:19

Yes, yeah, it would depend on a few things A situation where I could see it not being a case Again. Every situation is different. Your co-workers Francesca, billy from accounting comes to you and says, francesca, I want to take you out on a date. You say, why not? I got nothing else going on. You go on the date with Billy. He's your co-worker, not your boss. During the date, he whips it out and you say, okay, that was weird. I'm never going to talk to you again. Uh, that may not be legally actionable by itself. You went on a date outside working hours. He was a co-worker. It happened one time. Especially if the company fires him or disciplines for him, I wouldn't start, you know, running up a credit card bill, thinking you're getting a settlement for that okay.

Francesca: 55:59

so if someone shows you their junk during working hours, oh, okay.

Ryan: 56:05

Where these cases get complicated and I've seen a few of them is when something happens outside the workplace. Now, if it's a manager, there's going to be this big legal fight of if they were acting within their capacity as a manager. Workplace retreats are crazy.

Ryan: 56:18

Oh geez, yeah Workplace retreats, everyone reverts to being a 16-year-old at summer camp. They think it's cute to sneak into people's beds naked and stuff. It's just the. It is shocking to me. Being an employment lawyer. I have come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a grownup. It's a fantasy, it's a convenient fiction, this idea of adults and grownups that we have made in our heads. They are not real. We are nothing but a bunch of preteens and teens running around with bodies that are getting a little wrinkly. That's it. There's no grownups out there.

Mel: 56:49

I tell Franchoff the story all the time. When I was an intern here in the state capitol at the head of our office, she said to me when I was 22, she was like honey, all it is in life is adult daycare and if you can remember that, you'll be successful. And I'm like that. Yeah, I found that to be true, 20 plus years later.

Ryan: 57:10

Yes, it is very true, and it's adult daycare is accurate. I like the teen summer camp thing because I gotta tell you, we handle so many sexual harassment cases. People, they're horny and it's a problem. I don't know how else to say it.

Francesca: 57:27

That's going to be the end of the trailer for this episode.

Ryan: 57:35

Oh, boring employment lawyer. What's this all about?

Francesca: 57:37

People are horny. It's a problem.

Ryan: 57:42

I get it. We're human beings. You're going to see people, you're going to find them attractive, but for the love of God, don't act on it.

Mel: 57:49

Oh, my God. Okay, what's the type of case that comes up? I'm assuming it's going to be this, since people are horny and have a problem, but what type of case do you see most often popping up?

Ryan: 58:00

Honestly, that gets a little boring. The most common is probably wage theft. Wage theft is typically not accidental. It is one of the most rampant crimes in the US. There's a headline that goes around saying it is the number one most expensive crime in the US. I'm not sure that's true if you count for things like insider trading and stuff like that, but it costs American workers close to $50 billion a year. So wage theft by far. And it tends to affect the lowest earning people the most. I have multiple class actions that I work on. We deal with it all the time. So wage theft by far. That's why I tell people track your time carefully.

Ryan: 58:36

Do not trust your employer. They have lawyers? I bet that. Nope, they have a systemic process. They create confusing comp plans, weird commission structures, weird pay stubs that don't make any sense to anybody. They're stealing from you Just because your company is a big, huge corporation. Don't assume it's on the up and up. In fact, the bigger and more powerful the company, the more likely it is. They've engineered some sort of way to shave off your wages. So wage theft by far. Engineered some sort of way to shave off your wages? So wage theft by far. And then after that, fmla retaliation.

Ryan: 59:11

The United States is very backwards in a lot of things, including our approach to family leave and medical leave. It's a hotbed for retaliation. The most common form of discrimination we see is pregnancy discrimination. I have more pregnancy discrimination cases than race, national origin and LGBTQ discrimination. Combined Pregnancy is the number one most common form of discrimination I see when in the pregnancy cycle really big one, and you'd be surprised females will attack subordinate females. For for it it's just. It's a mistake to assume that someone who has experienced pregnancy themselves in some capacity or is a woman will not discriminate against you. It's in the employment context. Those loyalties that you would expect exist don't always exist. And then, of course, sexual harassment. Probably marginally more pregnancy discrimination than gross sexual harassment. I mean, if I signed every sexual harassment case that came through my door, it would probably be number one, but we're only a team of 10. So we're pretty selective about which cases we choose to run with, and if we can't take it, we try to send it to a partner of ours yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Mel: 1:00:24

The pregnancy thing. I just myself alone and francesca, you probably know, I have. I'd have three girlfriends who were let go while on fmla I would have got them a bag well a lot of employers get around it too by firing the whole org.

Ryan: 1:00:40

We see that a lot. Uh, and this is a message I should probably put it out once a week Honestly, there's this myth that employers can get around these rules by just doing a mass layoff or eliminating a whole department. We look at that stuff and we'll say, hey, we think it's odd that you fired 30 people from your organization and half of them were people who took FMLA leave in the past year and a half. Odd, I attend a lot of conferences and I've been at conferences where I've had HR reps tell me hey, don't tell anyone, but I work at XYZ company and we're laying off 600 people and we were definitely told, subtly, to skew towards older workers.

Ryan: 1:01:19

Yeah, stuff happens, it is intentional, it is a myth. It is a myth to think, oh, my company has lawyers and legal teams and they're going to make sure everything they do is perfectly legal. No, they play games. If it's genuinely some shenanigans going on, there's going to be clues and we don't need a confession, we don't need a smoking gun. We can pull the data and say it's really weird that 40% of this mass layoff was people with disabilities or people over 40. Like you can. You don't have to be a legal genius. Now, how do you get that information? Where do you get it? How do you fight for it? Because they're not going to want to give it to you. That's where the legal expertise comes in, but to look at the clues and figure out if something illegal happened. A jury is smart, they'll figure that out.

Mel: 1:02:10

What's something that organizations get right? I know we a lot of the times are like, no, they don't do it right. But what's something that they do get right, or what you've seen some organizations do well?

Ryan: 1:02:24

well, it'll vary by the organization. Obviously, some companies just treat their employees like crap and that's just their core value. Is treating people badly. The best thing I think a company can do, obviously, paying your people well. Give them regular raises, give them a clear path upward. Make it clear what is expected If they want to go from. Hey, I'm an entry-level employee, I would like to be an assistant manager, a manager, a director, a department head. Make it clear how they get there. There's so many organizations you go into where it's just apparently the only way to get there is to be the son of the boss's golfing buddy or something like that. But if you make a clear ladder, hey, if you get this certification. If you serve on this board. If you do this, if you do a clear ladder, hey, if you get this certification. If you serve on this board. If you do this, if you do that, you'll be considered for these roles. I think giving employees meaningful checkpoints in their career with you where they say, hey, I got a raise here because I did good, I got a promotion here because I checked off these boxes Like giving people some sort of ladder to climb, I think is good.

Ryan: 1:03:21

Also, take a firm. Look at your middle management and really ask how necessary some of those roles are. There's a lot of middle managers out there who don't have much to do, so they occupy themselves with microaggression, micromanagement, bullying, useless meetings that drain your resources. I had to tell you, god, middle managers without clear roles are a cancer on your business. They suck up their own salary, they suck up the working hours of your other employees and they create drama. Because I'm telling you, very busy employees don't go around bullying each other. It's the ones who have too much time that tend to do the most bullying. And then, don't hire people you don't trust. If you don't trust someone, don't hire them.

Mel: 1:04:00

Yeah, and if you don't trust anyone, maybe go to therapy, because it sounds like you're the problem there. Ryan, this has been amazing, Great conversation. We're so glad you joined us today. Thank you for having me on. Thanks for listening to your Work Friends. You can find us over on yourworkfriends.com, Instagram, TikTok and Francesca where else can they find us? Join us on your.

Francesca: 1:04:35

Work Friends LinkedIn group or your Work Friends on YouTube, if you're a video person.

Mel: 1:04:39

And listen. If you have a story to share or a topic you'd like to cover, you can email us over at friend at your work friends dot com. It's Vegas, it's anonymous, so share with us. And hey, if you like what you hear, share with a friend or two. Thanks, friend, bye, friend.

CEO Perspective: Balancing Results & People

Your Work Friends Podcast: CEO POV - Balancing Results & People with Alan Whitman

What does it take to drive results without driving people into the ground? Former CEO Alan Whitman joins us to share how he led with empathy, built trust across the org, and still delivered big. Alan's known for being a progressive leader. But what we we're interested in is how he was able to balance business results (he 3X'd the firm during his tenure) with the people stuff (he was voted #1 Advisory CEO on Glassdoor). 

We cover the big stuff:  WTH do CEOs actually do? How DID he balance results and people? What's critical for CEOs to nail? This conversation is a rare look inside the mind of a people-first exec who believes that culture and performance aren’t in conflict—they’re connected.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:02

When I was early on in public accounting, you always knew the people that were going to be successful because they were pukers.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Huh what.

Speaker 1: 0:12

Like grow up in a trash can before. No, what's a puker? A puker is somebody that feels like they're going to puke when something goes wrong. They care.

Speaker 4: 0:36

Well, guys, welcome to your Work Friends. We're your two HR friends, I'm Francesca and I'm Mel, and we have no filter, but we're getting you through all this work shit. And today, mel, what are we talking about?

Speaker 3: 0:48

We are kicking off a brand new series called Visionary Executives. There are a lot of cool leaders out there that are doing really interesting work and bringing people in business together in a way that everyone wins, and we wanted to start a series that started to highlight those folks and talk about the things they're doing and what you can take away from that, either as an employee or as an executive yourself.

Speaker 4: 1:16

Yeah, there's nothing like talking to people that are at the tippy top of the seats and making these big decisions, so we're excited to kick off this series with Alan Whitman.

Speaker 4: 1:25

Alan Whitman was a chairman and chief executive officer at Baker Telly US, which is a top 10 CPA firm, and the reason why Alan's a really interesting person to talk to is threefold. One Alan was the CEO of a top 10 accounting firm and if anybody is familiar with accounting, you know how volatile that industry is, not only from a business side, but also from a people side. People just really don't want to go into accounting as much as they used to, so it's a sticky situation. The other thing is during his tenure, he 3x to the business, which is huge, and at the same time, was able to have a number one employee satisfaction and CEO approval rating from Glassdoor of the top 20 advisory firms. So here's a guy that is in a volatile industry, 3x his business and also had the people saying we love this guy. So we wanted to talk about how the hell did he do that? How the heck did he balance people and results, and he did it in a pretty interesting way.

Speaker 3: 2:22

Absolutely, and you don't want to miss this episode. So here's Alan Whitman.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Hey Alan, how are you today?

Speaker 1: 2:43

I am fantastic, great to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Where are we finding you Today?

Speaker 1: 2:48

I'm in Atlanta and it's a sunny, warm day in Atlanta. A little cool in the mornings but nice and warm in the afternoons.

Speaker 2: 2:55

So I'm not anywhere where it's snowing, which is great, kim my wife says that it's snowing back in Michigan, so I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I heard a friend was up in Ann Arbor at University of Michigan, so I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I just I heard a friend was up in Ann Arbor at University of Michigan and said it was snowing. So I'm like, yeah, that doesn't sound fun. So it sounds like you're well located.

Speaker 1: 3:10

I am, and I'm going to Florida tomorrow night.

Speaker 2: 3:12

Yeah, but you're a native of Michigan, right Since 1996.

Speaker 1: 3:16

Yeah, I grew up in New York and Cincinnati. I lived in Detroit as an adult but since 96, I met my wife there and my kids are from there, so I'm from there.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Yeah, you are. You are a Michigan.

Speaker 1: 3:26

I'm not a U of M fan unless I'm with my wife or my mother-in-law. I'm still a Cincinnati Reds fan and Indiana Hoosier fan, although the Lions were a lot of fun to watch this year.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Oh my gosh, I loved how Eminem totally got behind it. A big fan I am. I lived quite a long time in Columbus, ohio, which is home of the Ohio State University.

Speaker 2: 3:48

Understand the not liking the blue. I went to liberal arts college, so I don't have any skin in this game Anywho. Anywho, alan, we're here today. I'm excited to talk with you. I want to talk about the role of a CEO. It's not very common for us to be able to talk to leaders that have led global billion-dollar organizations and we want to know all about it and what it's like. What does it feel like? What do you do? What does your dailiness look like? Are you the type that gets up at 4 am on the Peloton? That's the vision everybody has, right. So that's what we want to uncover with you today is what is the world of the CEO? And, probably more importantly, is what do you think the world of the CEO? And, probably more importantly, is what do you think the world of the CEO should look like as we're going into the future? So we have a few questions we want to go through with you today. How does that sound?

Speaker 1: 4:30

All right, let's roll, I'm ready.

Speaker 3: 4:32

We'd love to hear more about your journey to CEO. How did that happen? Tell us about it.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Yeah, as both of you know, I'm a public accounting brat. I grew up in the big eight, 6, 5, 4. Went to a few smaller firms Tax guy by background and really never had the plan. I never had the professional life plan. I just always trusted that things would work out. And when I joined Virchow Kraus which is the firm that became Baker Tilly just by a names change, I had a great opportunity to lead this thing called International services and I had no idea what it was about, really had no idea what it was about, and my predecessor had no idea. His idea was it's yours if you want it. I said what is it? He goes I don't know, you'll figure it out.

Speaker 3: 5:17

And.

Speaker 1: 5:18

I did. We figured it out Before that I had just. I had great mentors, and so I wouldn't be where I am or wouldn't have had the opportunities without great people looking after me and helping me. And look again, it was. There was no plan to be the CEO of Baker Tilly. The plan was to do great work, build great relationships, build trust with the people I work with and have a lot of fun doing it.

Speaker 1: 5:40

I'm not a guy that's built on a lot of structure. I'm not a rules-based guy. I'm more of a principles-based guy and I do like to wing it and I have trust that it's going to work out. It's not that I have so much trust in my abilities that I'm going to just crush everything. I just have trust in the system that if I do the right things, everything will work out. Some would say that I'm oblivious to the outside world. I don't know, but that's how I was.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And I remember I was in a bus heading to a partner retreat and we knew we were going through a succession plan process and a former partner of mine leaned over and said, hey, you should put your name in to be the next CEO. And I laughed. I'm from a small practice, I'm new to the firm. And she said listen, everybody trusts you. You're not here to build your own practice. You were here to help everybody, including her me, as she said. And I think you'd be a viable candidate because the partners trust you, that you're here for them and for us in total, rather than trying to pad your own performance or your own book of business, et cetera. And so I said all right, I'll put my name in that.

Speaker 1: 6:46

And one thing led to another a lot of testing, a lot of interviews, et cetera. And I still remember the day I walked out of the last interview. I remember that day. And then I remember the next day when I got the call and I found myself as the next CEO of Baker Tilly and it was like wait, what just happened? And then I could talk to you about the journey as the CEO. I think the ability to visualize the future of what would we build the organization to. I'm not so sure I knew how to do it yet, but I certainly knew what I wanted to build and what the foundational principles of my candidacy. And they took a chance and I think it paid off. We did remarkable things. We everybody did remarkable things in that eight-year run.

Speaker 3: 7:36

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like there's definitely that light bulb moment. It wasn't about you establishing a practice. It was about switching what your role is completely. What exactly is the role of a CEO?

Speaker 1: 7:48

What's the role of a CEO? I think, above all, the role of a CEO is to enable the team to do more than they think they can do and to do things they're not even aware of doing. So pulling them together for a common cause and achieving twofold, threefold, fivefold, x-fold the amount of outcomes and deliverables and performance and accomplishments compared to what they think is possible. You both know that I don't ask binary questions. Can we do this, can we do that? I ask the question. What will it take? And so it opens the mind to the art of the possible. And so, above all, there's all sorts of different things strategy and acquisitions and communications, client connections, et cetera. Those are the how, the what, in my mind, is innate pulling people together for a common cause, a vision, a mission, and engaging them to believe they can do more than they thought they could. Engaging them to believe they can do more than they thought they could and, in turn, providing that pathway and the ingredients to do just that.

Speaker 3: 8:50

I love that You're bringing that visionary role to folks. You're making them feel like they're a part of something larger and you're also really building up their confidence in a space where they thought they might not be able to do it, which is really exciting.

Speaker 1: 9:03

Confidence in a space where they thought they might not be able to do it, which is really exciting. A successful CEO is somebody that enables people to have a little bit of blind faith. If he or she thinks I can do it, or he or she is totally committed to this, let's go. Let's go on the journey that she or he is describing. In my opinion, the most successful CEOs are the ones that can paint the picture of tomorrow when maybe not everybody understands even what today's all about. They come on that journey with you and they have blind faith that I trust him or her and all right, I'm going to follow, or I'm going to ride shotgun, which is even better, or I'm going to lead, which is even better.

Speaker 2: 9:47

It's interesting. You talk about vision. Marcus Buckingham wrote the One Thing you Need to Know, which is what differentiates good from great leaders, is the ability to paint a vision and get people behind it. So much of that is on trust and the compelling nature of the vision, the doable nature of the vision, where it has a little bit of I don't know if we can do this, but I think we can. You talked about trust. What makes you so good at trust? Like, how do you get people to trust you? How have you gotten people to trust you?

Speaker 1: 10:17

Look part of it is what have you done prior to becoming the CEO or the leader?

Speaker 1: 10:23

Yeah fair done prior to becoming the CEO or the leader? Yeah, fair, do you have credibility? That's the first and the second in many facets, francesca, it's being able to tell a compelling story, to not wither in the face of adversity. And if you have adversity, how do you deal with it? Don't go too high, Don't go too low, don't get too excited, don't get too down. Don't get too excited, don't get too down. Building a compelling narrative. Look, words matter, the story matters, and so having a great right-hand person to help you take your crazy ideas and organize them and build them into a compelling vision that's believable, even if it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 11:13

You separate yourself from reality a little bit and you dream. And so, look, communication is a crucial skill of any senior leader, a CEO being able to communicate. And that's with words, with emotion, with heart, eye to eye, being relatable, not demanding things, but working together on things. And look, I always thought that I was Alan, who happened to be the CEO. That's how I communicated. I'm just Alan. Yes, I'm the CEO. Yes, I probably have more experience than you.

Speaker 1: 11:47

You know, our family's a big fan of the movie Ratatouille. Our kids grew up watching it. It's a great flick about anybody can cook. Guess what? Anybody can be a CEO. Now, there's got to be some things that happen in your career, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, and so I was just Alan. I am Alan and it happens to be the CEO. I was on a personal level with people while at the same time, being their boss, or their boss's boss, or the steward of the organization, and so being willing to be relatable and being a person first. Yeah, you get the job, of course, things you do, but you're still a person.

Speaker 3: 12:24

Yeah, like that the job, of course, things you do, but you're still a person. Yeah, like that approachability piece, vulnerability as a leader. You weren't the Wizard of Oz hiding in your tower and that probably made a huge difference. How do you think the role of a CEO is going to shift in five years, 10 years, with how business is changing? Like what might be different in this role in the future years, 10 years with?

Speaker 1: 12:45

how business is changing, like what might be different in this role in the future. Just think about technology and automation and how much is going to be accomplished artificially. The stakeholder groups have never been as numerous as they are now. There's so much influence on business from the social part of humankind that the stakeholder groups have become numerous and, frankly, as I was the CEO, I was always concerned that there's going to be another stakeholder that came up on Monday or Tuesday, but we had to consider that stakeholder and so, look, business has never been as fast as it is. If Friedman wrote, the world is flat, you can use that title to describe a lot of things in today's day. Right, everything is flat, nothing is compartmentalized, everything is blending and bleeding into the other. So that's a really hard thing. I think CEOs are going to have to continue upping their game in what to communicate, when to communicate and how to communicate.

Speaker 3: 13:47

Do you see organizations moving to being increasingly more transparent? As much as they can be, of course, but do you see a change happening there?

Speaker 1: 13:57

I think there's already been a change Now. I think that, done poorly, it can blow up in your face. Yeah, right, we've seen that recently in some very poor communications about some very sensitive subjects. And, yeah, I do think that people expect more transparency. But it is interesting. Is it transparency or is it inclusion? That's the that's a big question, right? Is it transparency that you got to know everything because you can't know everything, right? Or is it better said inclusion in a lot more of the how the sausage is made or how decisions are made, et cetera? Look, you can't include everybody in decisions. I wrote about a recent post I put up on LinkedIn. You can't. So you've got to find a way to make people feel like they're part of the subject, they're part of the decision making process or the project, so they feel like, as much as they can, they're engaged. I think that is a big expectation of people today.

Speaker 2: 15:04

You talk about the power of communication. I'll tell you look at what's happening. We're still looking for Kate Middleton with the idea, Honestly which, by the way, went down a massive rabbit hole with that. But it really goes to prove that when you have poor communication and or no communication at all from an entity or a leadership position, people will make up their own narratives, and you don't want that as an organization, right? You want them to be clear.

Speaker 1: 15:31

You just wonder. You're like, who in the world is advising them?

Speaker 2: 15:36

A thousand percent.

Speaker 1: 15:38

And you know that they've got advice, whether it's legal advice or Tom's advice or PR advice. But I remember something just happened recently the university presidents when they went before Congress. I remember I was listening to that and I felt so bad for them just because of the situation they were in. That's got nothing to do with what I believe in, so we'll leave that aside. And I remember calling my good friend saying who the heck's advising them? Even I know that whatever they were communicating was done poorly. So you just wonder how are things being missed so wild?

Speaker 2: 16:12

Yeah, joking aside, we're seeing it front and center, which, by the way, will be a Harvard business case tomorrow because it's just awful.

Speaker 2: 16:20

I have a theory that when the queen mum died, the whole place just went downhill. That's just my whole thing. But you see it there. You see it happening in businesses and companies too, right, especially as some of these corporations are moving through things like mass layoffs or less than desirable business results, and some of the tone in which employees are feeling the conversation is changing internally and externally is really nailing communication. Well, and, by the way, we know how to do this. It's always just so fascinating, to your very good point, when you're like who the hell's advising them? Because they're biffing it, and they're biffing it really hard.

Speaker 1: 16:55

I've got a saying listen, you're not going to like this and it's okay not to like it. I give you permission because some of these things that I'm about to tell you I don't like Knowledge butchered in.

Speaker 3: 17:05

I don't like Knowledge is a turd in the room.

Speaker 1: 17:06

I'm asking you, you don't have to like it. I'm asking you to respect it. Yep, and what I find is if you give somebody the permission to not like something, it doesn't make them like it. It just kind of deflates their balloon because the emotion it's like he's not going to fight me, he's not going to argue with me, he's not going to engage in that. No, I'm okay with you not liking it. There's a lot of stuff that people won't like and there's a lot of stuff that I guarantee the CEOs themselves don't like. There were decisions.

Speaker 1: 17:32

I had to make, or I made, or I agreed with or endorsed that I didn't like, no question about it.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And they had to be made and I respected them and I asked the people to respect them. You're framing that as you're not going to like this, but this is where we're going to have to go. Takes it in a direction of what do we do now? Let's get into solution mode, or how do we collectively handle the situation, as opposed to getting into the emotions of it, which can be time consuming, and listen. I think everyone has to go into their hidey hole of emotions and do all that shit, but the reality is we need to move, and that's a nice way to frame it.

Speaker 1: 18:12

The reality is, the decision has to be made because it's not going to go away just because we don't like it. Right, let's get on with it.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Yeah, productive about it yeah. You talked about communication being a really critical piece for a CEO. That, to me, is someone who is really looking out for people and wanting to have a conversation around people. But you're also running a business, and you're running a global, multi-billion dollar business and you need to get business results. How do you, as a CEO, balance the need for wanting to put your people and your business results on an equal playing field? How do you do that?

Speaker 1: 18:50

Yeah, you spend a lot of time thinking about it. You spend a lot of for wanting to put your people and your business results on an equal playing field. How do you do that? Yeah, you spend a lot of time thinking about it. You spend a lot of time debating and designing and redesigning. I had a wonderful professional coach who was a little bit of a therapist. I would say. I don't know if she would want me to say that, but she did act that way because, getting through these conundrums is hard.

Speaker 1: 19:15

You know what it needs to be, you just need to figure out how to get there. Look, I know people didn't like some of the decisions I made and I'm sure some of the people said he's not a people person. Look what he did here in the instant on the micro and I tried to use both and versus but for either or a lot. I can be the people person and I can make those hard decisions and trying to get people that were the but of the hard decisions to realize that it's in the best interest of everybody. Here's an example.

Speaker 1: 19:52

I was reading Reed Hastings' book no Rules Great book.

Speaker 1: 19:57

He reminded me in the book that you need to be transparent and you need to really get to the people and if somebody is not right for the organization, make the decision and move on.

Speaker 1: 20:07

And it reminded me of a decision that I put off for five years and I look back and said, gosh, darn it. I wasted five years of this person's professional life because I was trying to be too nice, I was weighted too much to I need to do what's right by the people when in reality doing what's right for the person was to be honest with the person five years ago, and as much as we think that we're not nice to people when we make hard people decisions, you may actually be being nice, being genuine, helping them out. So it's not a binary you either are or you aren't. There's a middle ground there. So, look, I thought a lot about how to reimagine the organization, knowing that people would have to move out of their current role because the organization had passed them by and we needed to redeploy people. And that is a really hard thing to do, probably one of the hardest things, because there is emotion involved.

Speaker 2: 21:10

Et cetera, relationships, everything, all these people yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:13

And was I good at it? I don't know if I was good at it. I think that the organization's success would probably conclude that, yes, we got it right more than we got it wrong, much more than we got it wrong. But I wouldn't suggest that I captured the flag on that one. It's a constant struggle. You mentioned all hands or the live cast that I love those just adored those. I love the time with everybody because I was just again just let's be myself and that did empower me. Frankly, it did build trust and it was just so much fun that we could just be people and we're all in it together, and titles weren't part of those events there are a lot of organizations that talk about.

Speaker 2: 22:16

They're either people first or they're very people-centric. They're there for their people. You've obviously sat at the well, at the tippy tappy of the table where you're making decisions financial decisions, strategic decisions around investments in people. And I'm curious if we could flip this, because you know what this takes from an insider perspective, working with boards, working with the C-suite running an organization. I'm Jane Doe of ABC Company. How do I know? What are the tells that my company really walks the walk on being people-centric?

Speaker 1: 22:50

Features is not being people-centric, actions is being people-centric. I remember talking about development plans and I came up with the analogy of if you buy an outfit off the rack, okay, but it doesn't fit well, it doesn't hang well, you may have to have it tailored, but if you buy a bespoke or a tailored suit, it feels really good and you're on the top of your game. I was reminded at one point hey, alan, in today's day nobody gets tailored suits anymore, so your analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm like okay, got it, okay, fair. But the point I was trying to make was people-centric organizations have to come to the people rather than say we're going to get pet insurance or we're going to give you the 25 healthcare membership. Those are all features.

Speaker 1: 23:51

What if you put dollars to direct one-on-one development programs, coaches, how are you helping me? Or how are we helping you, francesca, at this company, become a better person and professional? You, it's not going up to a buffet and you get to choose what you pick. No, you're going to pick off the menu and you're going to actually pick the meal you want and it's going to be made to order for you. There's plenty of buffet style development and learning and development platforms, etc. How do we build something that is bespoke, tailored and it's not 100% of it? 80% can be buffet style and the last 20 is really focused on the person. And look, we do that for executive coaches. That's a bespoke program, sure do. Why are we doing it through the organization? If I had a coach when I was a senior, I'd have been a much better professional.

Speaker 2: 24:49

Why don't organizations do that?

Speaker 1: 24:52

Well, I think it's a pretty progressive platform. I think it's a pathway that requires a lot of confidence and trust. It's expensive, it's expensive yeah. And I think that I don't know. I'm going to say this and I'm going to get ridiculed for it. I wonder if people work to the mean Like do you get the?

Speaker 2: 25:13

degrees, Alan. Is that what you're trying to say?

Speaker 1: 25:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, Francesca. It's a great question. I don't know why people would say it's impossible. Why do this? Why not? We can't do it. What would it take to do it? What would it take to put a program like that in place?

Speaker 2: 25:35

It's a doable. I think I agree with everything you're saying. It is a trust, it's a vision, to your very good point A lot of times because people haven't seen it. They're typically a long game. They're not something that you can turn in a quarter and see results a lot of times, but those are the things that are so meaningful.

Speaker 2: 25:52

And this is what I really struggle with is when we're doing these like quarter by quarter, needing to see results, needing to see results, how can people fight for the long tail stuff, the break the mold stuff that really truly changes and shifts industries?

Speaker 1: 26:14

I was just working with my colleague on an article about intentionality and my belief now in coaching or in tailored development programs. We all hear professional athletes have coaches. Yes, and you can see the difference. Because they're higher up on the leaderboard, they win more tournaments, they can shoot a better percentage. Whatever it is On the professional setting, as you said, francesca, it's the long game.

Speaker 1: 26:41

I don't know if you can associate a win or this to the coaching. Maybe you can, but it's less direct, it's less cause and effect. The coach helps the golfer putt better, so on Sundays they make more putts, they win the tournament. Versus building somebody as a professional. I can tell you from experience the people that I've engaged in coaching and I've pushed to coach are much better as people and professionals, much more aware than they would have been or they were prior to. So I think most think that's for the athletes, because there's a grade right, you win, you lose, you move up. I think we can learn a lot from sports or from other professions. And so, look, I think it's massively expensive. But you know what? So are all the campuses up in the Silicon Valley, the open campuses. Those things are massively expensive.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Yeah, real estate's not cheap.

Speaker 1: 27:41

Right, and so is it all making people better professionals or is it allowing them to work in a better environment? Now, some would say working in a better environment will make you more productive. Okay, I'm not going to argue that I don't know the data on that. What if you took all that money and you put it back in developing Mel and Francesca to be better people, more spatially aware?

Speaker 2: 28:06

Less smart ass. There's a lot of benefits here.

Speaker 1: 28:11

I don't like that. I like that part of you, so I would not put that in the program.

Speaker 3: 28:15

That's your sassiness, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 28:18

I couldn't agree with you more, alan I've always believed in coaching and to both of your points that you don't necessarily see ROI in the first quarter, the second quarter, it just becomes part of your organization's culture that everyone gets a performance coach. All the people stuff is where the problems happen at the leadership level, starting at managers and above. So if you're addressing that when someone's first coming out into their career, it's going to get them light years ahead of other people who don't have that. So when they're at a manager level, you're not trying to suddenly jam down their throats milestone programs to make up for all of the care and attention that they haven't yet received.

Speaker 3: 29:00

Beautifully said, we've talked a lot about things that make people feel valued and respected, empowered in the workplace. You talked about inclusive practices, transparency, as much as you can have that, but make it really. It's like acknowledging their emotions, speaking to them human to human level. What are other things that CEOs can do or leaders can do to foster an environment where people really feel valued, respected, like they have belonging and meaningful work?

Speaker 1: 29:33

Certainly accolades and awards and the at a gal, at a boy comments. Yeah, to me the thing that got people really jazzed was the idea that they could connect with the CEO one-on-one, the idea that they knew the CEO was looking out for them and was looking to put them in different places, move them around, cared about their career. They felt part of the ingredients that were going to make the strategy reality. And once you get them bought in, they're bought in. As hard as it is to get them into the, into the room, if you do it right, it's equally as hard to get them out of the room and to have them turn away. Now, if you're a jerk and you're really not trustworthy, of course you can ruin a second, but I I had some colleagues that were just so sold on it because we activated their need for belonging and being part of the solution. I had people coming up to me and it wasn't to brag, it was. They would come up to me and tell me about all this stuff we're doing and how this is working and that is working, et cetera. It had nothing to do with their performance, they just wanted to share it. That's when you know they're in, they're so far. In Fine, you go tell the people about this. This is awesome. I don't need to be the conveyor of the good news.

Speaker 1: 30:50

You mentioned culture, francesca. I'm a big believer that culture should change. It's a living organism. It should not be the same today as it was yesterday. It should continue improving. It can deteriorate, but if you're doing everything right, it will continue to change. You Build new cultures over time. It's just critical for leadership to empower, to push more. Sit beside people and watch them.

Speaker 1: 31:22

I remember when I called a client service partner and I said hey, we want you to come lead this practice, because she was stuck in a practice. She was doing great, she was a partner, she was doing great. But I saw something in her, just like my predecessor saw in me. I called this person, said we want you to lead this and she said you realize I'm an audit partner. I have no idea about that.

Speaker 1: 31:50

I said you don't need to know about the technical aspects. We've got plenty of people that know the technical aspects. I need you to lead it and I have every confidence and will be right there with you to lead it. And she's like, okay, I really don't know what I'm going to do, but okay, and she's crushed it. There's dozens of examples where I would go into the system One because I like to shake it up, I like to get people rustled up to go do other things, but then I brought them out and boom, they became people that they never even thought they'd have the chance to become. It's a big thing of culture, trust, empowerment, and that's where people get really engaged with wow that's really cool.

Speaker 3: 32:37

He is for the people and someone believing in them. A big common red thread throughout all of your stories is not just the trust people have had in you, but your belief in them really empowered them to do it. You're advising and coaching a lot of CEOs now, but if it's a new CEO, they've never done it before. In the position you were in many moons ago, like how am I going to do advising and coaching a lot of CEOs now, but if it's a new CEO, they've never done it before. In the position you were in many moons ago, like how am I going to do this, knowing what you know now? What would you advise them to do right away in this space to establish a?

Speaker 1: 33:02

good culture. Trust your gut as much as numbers don't lie. Numbers aren't the only thing that you should be focusing on. Be willing to take a chance. We know who good people are. We always say that she has the it, and if the square peg doesn't have to fit in the square hole exactly, which is my example a minute ago this may sound a little crass. You can teach technical skills. You really can't teach the it. You can teach technical skills. You really can't teach the it. You can polish the it, you can bring the it out, but you can't really teach it.

Speaker 3: 33:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:39

And when you see somebody that has it, give them a chance.

Speaker 3: 33:43

Yeah, what is it the X?

Speaker 2: 33:44

factor. Is it X factor? Is that what we're talking about?

Speaker 1: 33:46

Yeah, the X factor, yeah yeah, when I was early on in public outing, you always knew the people that were going to be successful because they were pukers.

Speaker 2: 33:57

Huh, what, okay?

Speaker 1: 33:58

Like grow up in a trash can before. No, what's a puker? A puker is somebody that feels like they're going to puke when something goes wrong. Goes wrong, they care and your belly gets all tied up and some people probably do puke. I don't know, but is the person a puker or not? The person that's a puker, I'm going to work with that person because that person cares and gets it Part of the X factor, versus the person that just hey, okay, we'll try again tomorrow.

Speaker 2: 34:27

When you think about the people that have the X factor are the people that care enough to get nervous enough to get anxious. And yet earlier in this conversation we were talking about why don't organizations do this in macro right, in terms of caring about their people? It's because they're going towards the mean. It's because they're operating as in C's get degrees as opposed to getting the pit in their stomach and really caring. It's an interesting hilarity there. The puker story absolutely is staying in. We talked about this earlier. Like speed of business, we're in an election year. Ai, inflation, stagnation, boards, you name it. The amount of stuff and the amount of stakeholders that any CEO in any organization has to deal with is nuts, honestly. It's evolved massively, it's way more than it used to be, and it's only going to get more complex. I am curious about what are the hardest parts of this job. When you think about sitting in that seat, does the puking stay? This is what I'm wondering. Did you ever hurl as a CEO? That's what I really want to know.

Speaker 1: 35:41

Did I ever hurl as a CEO?

Speaker 2: 35:42

No, and I'm not even going to say I curled up in a ball and sucked my thumb. I've done that, maybe not as a CEO. Anyway, I had a ball and sucked my thumb.

Speaker 1: 35:50

I've done that, maybe not as a CEO. I didn't. Anyway, I had a lot of sleepless nights.

Speaker 3: 35:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:54

I had a lot of waking up at 2.30 in the morning with junk driving in my head or I'm not performing, I'm not performing. Look, I talked to my coach about this. I'm a big believer.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Everybody's got imposter syndrome no matter how successful we are, we all have it. I have it sure, okay, I admit it. And so I had a lot of waking up at two o'clock in the morning and never go back to sleep, and that was part of the job, because my head was swirling. I had a lot of puking experiences, not literally, but where I was all balled up in my gut because I had such a dilemma or I had such a challenge. One was when COVID came about right, plenty right. Others were when earnings were not where they needed to be, and what are we going to do with compensation and bonuses for everybody? There's all sorts of making.

Speaker 1: 36:44

One of the biggest moves I had to make, which was a personnel move. It took me four months to figure out how to do it. I remember exactly when I figured it out. I was on a plane from Detroit to Asia. Kim was sleeping next to me in the little pod and it just over Washington, where you live, francesca, and I figured it out, but it took me a long time. So, yeah, I had a lot of knots in my gut over the course of the year. Okay, I have gray hair. You can see I have gray hair.

Speaker 3: 37:07

Now I didn't have gray hair when we met. Think of presidents.

Speaker 1: 37:12

To your question, francesca people and the relationships that ensue, that will never go away. That's really hard Because, at the end of the day, no matter what business you're in, there are people in the business. It's a huge part of every ceo's routine anticipating what's next, not missing something. He always fretted that I was going to see a headline on the front page of whatever or an email, that something happened and I totally blew it. I just wasn't paying attention.

Speaker 1: 37:46

I wasn't worried about delivering good service because we had great people at the organization. I wasn't worried about delivering good service because we had great people at the organization. I wasn't worried about executing the strategy of the firm. Once we got everybody to a place where they believed in the strategy, which took about two years, once everybody was on the train, I didn't worry about that. I knew people, knew how to run the business and knew how to do what we needed to do. It's everything else. It's the ability for me to keep elevating my game in the firm's game. It was not missing something. It's not seeing around a corner and the people aspect of things, because every decision affects people, no matter what it is. It affects people, yeah, and so that was a huge part of it.

Speaker 2: 38:34

It's interesting to hear you talk about that, because we talk to employees leaders all week, every week Mel and I do and it's very similar to what we hear from them around their own craft, their own work. I was thinking when you get to a C-level, there's one of two things that happen. If it's me, I'm probably just puking my guts, which is totally fine. I love the fact that you still hold that level of care and that level of curiosity. There's this other, where there's this perception, too, that some CEOs are like have you heard this? That a lot of them are like pathological. Have you heard this? That a lot of them are like pathological.

Speaker 2: 39:10

Have you heard this? Yeah, yeah, you roll in these circles. Do you find that more people are pathological or they're more in the care? What's the split? Are we talking like 20, 80? What's going on here?

Speaker 1: 39:20

Oh, I think there are a lot of CEOs that are misjudged.

Speaker 2: 39:25

Oh interesting, Tell me more.

Speaker 1: 39:27

And look, I'm misjudged too. I've got a hard outer shell, no question about it. And if you don't know me, a lot of people think I'm a jerk. When you get to know me, you realize I'm really not a jerk, yeah, and I'm going to get things done. Look, you've got to be pretty confident, even if you have imposter syndrome. You've got to be pretty confident, pretty bold, to lead an organization and lead a journey. You got to be pretty bold and you got to be pretty tough. Now I do know there's plenty of people that are crazy.

Speaker 2: 39:58

Yeah, at all levels in the organization.

Speaker 1: 40:00

To be fair, believe me, I've met some of them, so it's yeah, but I think there are more that are caring than people give credit to.

Speaker 2: 40:08

I like that, I like it?

Speaker 1: 40:10

I really do. There's a CEO in the CPA profession there's a couple of them One that's got a bad rap and personal friends with him, and he's the nicest guy in the world and he gets a bad rap. And I can see why, because it was out of shell, but he's as caring as they come. And so the old adage okay, does the media do that to you, or is it real? I don't want to throw the media under the bus. People come up with their own stories.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Yeah, people come up with their own narratives. It does go back to. One of the keys here is to be a great communicator. Fair enough, and not that you need to be like happy joy all the time, but communication. This is one of the reasons.

Speaker 3: 40:49

You're in such a unique position too, I think, as a CEO, because every day you're in a position where you have to prove yourself to so many different people, day in, day out, over and over and not that others don't need to do that in their positions and I do think that there is a little bit of a uniqueness in that role where it's like the pressure of that has to be intense yeah, look more than anything.

Speaker 1: 41:15

All the eyes are on you right.

Speaker 1: 41:17

I remember when I became a partner I was told look, every, all the eyes are on you as a partner. Yeah, but it's not 6,000 person organization but in a hundred person team or whatever. I'll give you a story. I remember I was late to a meeting. I ran in and my coach was there. She was observing a lot of meetings for team effectiveness. I wanted her there to help me with the team effectiveness of the senior leaders of the organization Very helpful.

Speaker 1: 41:47

And so I run in and I want to get the meeting started. And so I go get a plate, want to get the meeting started. And so I go get a plate to lunch and I'm standing up eating and she's watching me and she pulled me aside before and she says what are you doing? I'm like what do you mean? I'm eating. She goes think about what you look like. They're all looking at you and even if they're not there, they're seeing you way out of control. And so again, in that little instant, you realize, holy moly, I might have gone backwards a little bit. And to your point, yeah, you are being looked at and even if you're not being looked at, you should not act like an idiot. And at that point, I was acting like a knucklehead. Slow down, sit down, eat. One, two more minutes isn't going to kill us. It was a good lesson.

Speaker 2: 42:31

There's this concept of shadow of a leader, and when you're at the top, all of your shadow casts over here, and even if it does something as simple as eating in front of people and giving the perception of we're not even going to spend time to sit down and eat, that's all stuff you have to consider and it's all part of the gig, right, and I don't know if people get that. Oh yeah, you've got a persona. I have no question about it. Mel and I were talking about this on the pod the other day. There is no one on the face of this planet that has led through what we're about to go through no one. And there's no playbook. I'm quite sure when you became a CEO, someone didn't say Alan, here's the CEO 101 book, number one and number two. You're in a context that has never existed before To me. There's a little bit of no one knows what the hell the answer is. There is no answer necessarily. It's just what are the choice points and how are you going to move through it?

Speaker 1: 43:27

So I'm advising a firm that has grown very quickly, that's exciting.

Speaker 1: 43:32

Yeah, it's wonderful. And the CEO brought me in to talk to the board and one of the comments he made is he did what we want to do. He led a firm and then he admitted to his board. He goes I've never run a company this big and I've never run a company that's bigger than this. Now he has, and so one. I gave him a lot of credit for realizing that he doesn't have all the answers and he's willing to take input. He doesn't follow my advice all the time but and he listens but to your point he's never run a company like this. And it's interesting. There's this concept. I don't know where I saw this be like this and it's interesting. There's this concept. I don't know where I saw this, but gradually. Then suddenly, gradually they grew. Suddenly they're a half a billion dollar firm. Gradually they're going to be a billion dollar firm. And if you're not focused on what's happening gradually, you won't be prepared for suddenly.

Speaker 2: 44:24

You talked earlier that you live by a set of principles, and when I think about companies that are in hyper growth, leaders that are in unprecedented times, how important are a core set of principles in leading oh, I think they're critical One, because it will demonstrate consistency to your stakeholders.

Speaker 1: 44:47

If you communicate appropriately, it will be the foundation to everything you do, because they'll know the type of person you are.

Speaker 3: 44:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:56

And it won't be just haphazard, it'll tie everything together. So I think it's critical.

Speaker 2: 45:01

Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about that too, just like when I look at some of the best leaders and the best strat and the best comms, like there's this undercurrent of principles that run through it and you can even make mistakes, you can make, you can biff, you can eat in front of your C-suite, right. There's like from small, something like that very small to. We made an investment in this company and it was a stinker. Oh, move on. You know what I'm saying. There's a lot of forgiveness or elasticity in the culture when you do that.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Look, if your stakeholders know your principles, know what you stand for, whatever you want to say it, they'll understand the reasoning and they'll understand that these decisions were made with the right principles in mind or at the core. And again, not everything goes perfectly, but at least they'll understand why the decision was made, or how it was made, or what was made upon, etc.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Yeah, and that's inclusion to your point yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:19

All right, Wow rapid round. Well, this was meant to be fun, Alan, hopefully. Okay. Is it lonely at the top?

Speaker 1: 46:27

Doesn't have to be.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Good answer. Family Feud Good answer.

Speaker 1: 46:31

I think, look, you need to surround yourself with a lot of people, and they don't have to be people that work for you. You can't tell things to everybody, and if you surround yourself with the right people, have the right advisor, even internally. No, it's not lonely at the top. I wasn't lonely.

Speaker 3: 46:51

You have your community.

Speaker 1: 46:53

I really wasn't. I thought I was very connected to a lot of people and I engaged them as I could, but no, I wasn't lonely.

Speaker 2: 47:00

Can I ask a question? Did you have someone that would say, Ellen, that's nuts or no, you're absolutely wrong.

Speaker 1: 47:06

Oh, yeah, yeah, more than one. Some I gave permission to do that and some I didn't, or some did it before. They asked for forgiveness. Yeah, and I wanted that. I don't have all the answers. So, yeah, I wanted people to say, hold on Really, but now I push back. It would push back. What would it take? Why not?

Speaker 3: 47:30

They keep you honest and help you out by your blind spots. Yeah, yeah, would you recommend that your kid become a CEO?

Speaker 1: 47:39

I would recommend that my kids figure out what they wanted to do every day. Yeah, and I won't tell them to shy away from being a CEO if the opportunity presents itself. And I won't tell them to shy away from being a CEO if the opportunity presents itself. But the only way you're going to become a CEO, unless you start your own company, is if you're really good at doing what you want to do, because it takes head and heart and don't shy away from it. I didn't like me, I didn't plan for it and it's very rewarding and complicated and pukey and you know all these things.

Speaker 3: 48:13

Okay, Hot topic item CEO compensation. And not every CEO is paid $30 million a year, but this is a hot topic in the news these days. Do you think CEOs should be paid as much as they are?

Speaker 1: 48:30

All right. So I'm going to apologize to my mother because she told me don't answer a question with a question, so I'm going to play around here. If you're going to ask should CEOs be paid what they are paid, then should athletes, should movie stars should? Where does it stop? Now to your specific question. Yeah, I do think they should be paid a lot of money because look at what they're overseeing, Look at what they're stewarding, Look at the effect that they have and the multiplier effect that they have, whether it be for careers, whether it be for the public product or services. That doesn't happen by chance and if you think about skilled athletes, their careers are, on average, much shorter. They're taking a huge risk. In my profession, you take a huge risk when you become a senior leader because you give up your binky, your comfort, you give up a book of business.

Speaker 3: 49:28

Yes, if they're performing, they're performing they're making such the effect that commands a significant top level. I'm going to move, then, to layoffs, because I think there's a connection here to your point. You mentioned that if they're performing they should get that layoff. What's the best way for CEOs to show accountability during a layoff?

Speaker 1: 49:49

Layoffs are caused by a number of different things. They could be caused by a company not performing, bad strategy, bad execution. They could be caused by a pandemic. When I was leading the firm, we didn't do layoffs for a few years and I took the most significant cut in pay because I didn't want to take layoffs. I didn't want to execute layoffs. I didn't think it was the right thing to do in light of what was going on. So I don't think it's a one size fits all answer. Having said that, I would think that performance pay would be adjusted in situations where workforce had to be reduced because of an environment. I don't know if that happens all the time, yet I would think that would be. There would be an and to that. There were layoffs and senior leadership didn't make the money that they made the year before.

Speaker 2: 50:46

It's so interesting because you see this in the news where layoffs are happening, earnings are through the roof. Some of that might have been through efficiencies with layoffs, and a lot of these C-suite executives are like crickets we take accountability but they don't tell you how, and so they may be taking these cuts. But again, going back to the red thread throughout this whole conversation that you keep coming back to, alan, which I think is amazing is communication agreed.

Speaker 1: 51:19

I I think that there should be more communication around that. I think that there should be some how to the what of accountability. How are you going to take accountability?

Speaker 2: 51:30

No.

Speaker 1: 51:31

I'm convinced that if people were more communicative around that you don't need to give exact numbers, but you can give directional comments Right, there wouldn't be a withdrawal from the trust bank. Yeah, yeah, look at times, layoffs or rifts or whatever you want to call it. It's a necessity because of the business. I realize the employees are, the team members, are integral to the business, and this might be one of those things that you're not going to like. The business is a persona, as a being itself, too.

Speaker 2: 52:04

Yes, yes, corporations are, yes, they are. Yes, yes, corporations are, yes, they are.

Speaker 1: 52:07

And unfortunately people get caught in the squeeze. So the only way to at least make it understood, not agreed with or not liked or respected is, yeah, better communication.

Speaker 3: 52:30

Even you taking the pay cut before having to pull that lever to try to do everything you absolutely can goes a long way with employees when they see that or hear that. Is there a CEO?

Speaker 1: 52:35

that you admire and, if so, why. You know there's a couple of people I admire. They're both males, so I apologize for that. I think Ed Bastian at Delta has been fascinating. I fly Delta all the time. I love their customer service. I love what they stand for. I love his messaging. He seems to be a CEO of the people. I do think he came out of the public accounting world, which is pretty cool. I also like Jamie Dimon.

Speaker 2: 53:00

JP Morgan.

Speaker 1: 53:01

Yeah, I'm not anything like Jamie Dimon, other than there's some similarities. He says it the way it is. He's very matter of fact, he's very you're not going to like this, and that's some of the principles that I live by, so that's where I'll stop the comparison. I think he's great. I think he's just a real, true person and I've heard he's a real person outside the ropes. He's just a dude that happens to be the CEO of JP Morgan and he's crushed it. He's just done so well. There's so many others. As an addendum to this question, I love reading books by leaders, not leadership books, necessarily, books by leaders. I want to know their story. I said read Hastings' no Rules and David Cody and the book by Imbolt, and there's just so many books that I've read because I want to know their journey. I want to know how they did it and the stories are fantastic and I learned from them, and so the idea of passing it along through a book is wonderful. But those two I admire quite a bit. I really enjoy watching them.

Speaker 3: 54:04

What's the best leadership advice you've ever read?

Speaker 1: 54:07

I don't know if this is leadership advice or not. There's a book it's called Extreme Ownership.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Yeah, yeah, jocko.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Jocko Willick and in there. There's a lot of great stuff, but the one that I find myself using a lot in my coaching and helping teams and leaders get their shit together is discipline equals freedom. People think that discipline or structure ruins entrepreneurial spirit or it ruins. No, if you're disciplined in what you do and you set the plan and you execute it, it does allow you to have some freedom on the edges. So let's build that plan as opposed to just being all over the place, and it does allow you to have some freedom. So I like that From my point of view, just as my advice is read the books by the people that came before you. So read books by leaders that have been in the seat. It's amazing how much you learn. I was never a big reader as a kid by now. I can't stop.

Speaker 2: 55:11

I love reading it's so nourishing, right it is it is alan, it was awesome to talk with you today. Thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for being here, friend.

Speaker 1: 55:30

My pleasure. This is a great venue. I wish y'all luck in the world and I'm really humbled by you asking me to join you.

Speaker 4: 55:43

Thanks so much for joining us today, mel. We're back with new headlines next week. Yeah, yeah, we are All right. In the meantime, hit us up on TikTok, instagram, linkedin and YouTube at yourworkfriendspod and Mel. What else can they do?

Speaker 3: 55:56

Email us at friend@yourworkfriends.com. Send us a message, folks. We do reply.

Speaker 4: 56:03

We do reply. All right, Bye friends, Bye friends, Bye friends.

Belonging at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Belonging at Work with Dr. Beth Kaplan

Fitting in fails…

Shrinking yourself to fit in is out. Standing in your truth is in. We spoke with belonging expert, and author of Braving the Workplace, Dr. Beth Kaplan to talk about why the old advice to “just fit in” is outdated—and honestly, damaging. We get into identity, inclusion, and how to stop molding yourself to a culture that was never built for you in the first place. Because real belonging doesn’t ask you to disappear—it asks you to show up.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

What does belonging mean to you personally in three words Don't sacrifice yourself.

Speaker 2: 0:07

Oh shit, that's good, that's good, it's good, it's good hey friend.

Speaker 3: 0:24

Hey, mel, how are you? I'm good, how are you doing? Hey, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Yeah, a couple of months ago Enzo figured out that when you whisper to Alexa, she whispers back. Well, this weekend we found out that if you ask Alexa to fart, she does and she has.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Yes, she has a whole canon of various farts, that she will fart on demand for you, which is incredible. And now I know what to teach my six-year-old nephew when I visit Florida in a few months.

Speaker 3: 0:55

You're welcome. I give you that gift. I give you that gift.

Speaker 2: 0:58

I appreciate it. Yeah, that was my Saturday. How was your weekend?

Speaker 3: 1:02

It was lovely. Thank you, it was so nice and sunny. Here I'm just enjoying spring, but I'm in the thick of wanting to throw everything out of my house. I just get in that mood of get a dumpster, let's throw it all out.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Yeah, that always feels good when you do that.

Speaker 3: 1:18

And then, four months later, you're like wait, where the hell is that? Where did that sweater go? Where did that sweater go? Well, friends, we're so excited because we're launching our episode with Dr Beth Kaplan, who is a global expert in belonging, and she is on a mission to improve belonging in the workplace in general in the world, and she joined us to talk about it. Francesca, what did you think about this episode?

Speaker 2: 1:44

Yeah, there were a lot of pieces of this episode that felt very personal, like I have felt what she had been talking about and I've also felt when I haven't.

Speaker 1: 1:55

I also felt just validated and really appreciated gaining some new insights and tools that I can take with me to help my own feeling of belonging but help other feelings of belonging as well.

Speaker 2: 2:08

Yeah, she was so good and gracious about offering small but really impactful things that everybody can do, whether you're an employee, a manager or, honestly, you're leading a company. Yeah so it doesn't have to be big, Doesn't it? Small things big difference Small things.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Yeah, it's Well everyone here's Dr Beth Kaplan.

Speaker 1: 2:46

Friends, we are super excited to have with us today Dr Beth Kaplan. Beth helps companies create a culture of belonging. She's also interested in how workplace trauma impacts our well-being and our future of work, and she's been recognized as a world-leading expert on belonging by the University of Pennsylvania and she's collaborating with them to develop a groundbreaking tool to measure belonging. She is currently the global head of leader development and enablement at Dassault Systems. Lastly, she is an author and her book Braving the Workplace will be coming out soon.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Beth, so lovely to have you here with us at your work. Friends, welcome. Thank you so much. It's great to be with you. Yeah, tell us what is belonging. How do you define belonging? So, belonging is the innate desire to be part of something larger than ourselves, without sacrificing who we are. So often I get the question of what's more important, the first part of that second sentence or the second, and they're both equally as important, right? So we've all had this overwhelming desire to be social, to be part of something, but if it comes at the cost of who we are, it's not real belonging. I felt that. I think I felt that before, francesca. Have you felt that before?

Speaker 2: 4:01

Yeah, I literally just got chills when you said that, even though I like I've heard you say that before, beth. But then when you said it again, I'm like, oh shit, that's so true. Yes, I felt it.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Yeah, the opposite of belonging is really fitting in trying to change who you are for other people. Yeah, and it never feels good when you try to force that. Ever, never. Why does this matter so much in life? It clearly matters, I think. What did they say? Community is actually more important than exercise in terms of life expectancy, right. Why does it matter so much in the workplace specifically? So it matters for so many reasons and the true reality of this one is that it extends beyond the workplace. We work so much more than any other generation.

Speaker 1: 4:45

You could debate that in history, when people used to have to hunt for their food maybe a little bit different, but at the same time, the reality in this one is that when you're happier, you're more productive. When you're able to connect with the world and feel like you can be yourself in any situation, you're going to feel that way. It gives you coping mechanisms. The serotonin alone is so healthy for us. When we don't have that, or where we feel isolated or excluded or any of the things, or like we're giving up a part of ourselves, it has very negative real-world consequences for us, for our mental, our physical, sociological well-being. Now, at the same time, it also takes a toll on everything in the workplace, from retention to all of the different measurements that you can come up with around satisfaction, but it's a real bottom line killer. When people feel like they don't belong, they either stay and they're unproductive which costs companies money, or they leave abruptly, which really kills your recruiting, and then, at the same time, when they're not productive, you lose business. You lose everything there. So the reality is that it hits all parts of the spectrum. You're obviously extremely passionate about this work.

Speaker 1: 5:56

What got you started? I think it's been with me all along. I think most of us would say that, right, a lot of people will come to me and say that everyone feels like a belonging researcher or everyone feels like a belonging storyteller because it's really rooted in our DNA. Right, it's part of everything we do. So I'm no different and for me, I had an experience in the workplace that really prompted me to evaluate how I look at myself. Was I being true to myself, and if I felt like I belonged or not? I'll keep it real.

Speaker 1: 6:26

The eventual realization was no. I didn't feel like I was being any of those things to myself, but instead of backing out and leaving, I doubled down. I made things so much harder for myself. So the second I figured that someone didn't like me who happened to be my boss at the time. It really hurt physically, right. So I think at the time it was way pre-pandemic and it was a stage where people weren't talking about things like this no loud quitting on LinkedIn, right. Or there was no quiet quitting where you could do what you had to do just to get the job done at the end of the day. So for me, I really wanted those gold stars from a boss who was never going to give them and I put myself in such harm's way that I was contemplating suicide.

Speaker 3: 7:11

That's true.

Speaker 1: 7:12

And when I told said manager, he ignored me. Wow yeah. So that was a trigger for me to get out. And not everyone's as lucky. You're not able just to pick up and leave when you want to, because there's this little thing called livelihood. Our jobs support us. So for me, I was able to make the decision that I need to leave, and it took me a good I would say eight months to a year to actually go. Yeah, I get it. What is that saying you can't win over people who are committed to misunderstanding you or not accepting you? And especially, I can only speak for myself as a perpetual people pleaser, a recovering people pleaser. It's natural, it's human nature to want to win people over when you feel like, oh, this person doesn't like me, why not, and what can I do about it?

Speaker 2: 7:57

And sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, but it does really impact you Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 8:02

And the sad part there's so many sad parts. The saddest part was I was trying desperately to win someone over who I didn't really respect. Yeah, I wouldn't take advice from him. Why was I taking criticism? Yeah, and it forced me to really look at myself. Look outside of the workplace. I was working 60 to 80 hours a week. I was losing friendships outside of work because people gave up trying to get together with me. I was doing things that were harmful, losing sleep. Hair was falling out. I was gaining weight and it was only until he ignored me, formally ignored my cries for help, that I knew I needed to leave.

Speaker 2: 8:39

I'm so sorry that happened to you. I just think it's really beautiful to see someone turning something that is so painful into something that is so powerful what you're doing to this work so thank you for that. I'm sure there are thousands of people that have felt very similar to you in terms of feeling like they didn't belong, that they were trying to assimilate into clipper culture, assimilate into the way a leader needed them to act to only not have that be reciprocated. You've been doing this work and studying this work, so you took that situation and then you went super deep in this. Yes, like a leading expert on belonging, I am wondering if we can talk about what are some of those common barriers or challenges people face in the workplace as it relates to belonging. What is that? What is that looking like for a lot of people?

Speaker 1: 9:28

I think it looks very different across the board. Right, there's a lot of diversity conversations that go around this, so when I comment, it's probably going to be a little more main sweeping. It'll hit everyone. I think one of the biggest barriers that we have is this internal talk track that we have. Right, there's this story we tell ourselves, and it's not always a realistic story. When we feel bad about ourselves, we beat ourselves up pretty badly. I think that's a really common barrier that I hear from people.

Speaker 1: 9:56

A lot of times the blame that you have is shifted onto you, from you, because you don't know where else to take it. Back in the day, I always say that back in the day it was HR, you'd go to HR. But the definition of HR has shifted, so when people have problems in the workplace they don't know where to go. You would logically think your manager, but that's not always a possibility, right? If we think about it, there are unequal playing fields. You and your managers are not equal. That's a reality. So speaking truth to power is really hard, and I think we're at a tipping point where people have been speaking truth to power and we haven't seen it go very well. So I think one of the biggest barriers are our leaders in the workplace and getting them acclimated to what it looks like. When we talk about trauma-informed workplace, so the trauma-informed workplace is really where you see things in the workplace that affect your mental and your physical health. We talk a lot about psychological safety, right? So when we don't feel safe in our environment and we're witnessing things that we need to either make just or justify on the company's behalf, that can become trauma-informed. For us is just one example, really. But who are about that? So a few things, not to disparage managers completely, but here's the reality. Have either of you ever had a manager that doubled as a psychologist? No, probably not. That's common, but from the pandemic and on, I believe that managers are being asked to take on way more, including the mental stability and health of their employees. Yeah, there's a lot of check-ins and things that managers are not able to control.

Speaker 1: 11:35

People come into the workplace with a lot of different backgrounds. Some come in and they are happy, healthy, raring and ready to go, and others unfortunately have to fake it till they get there. That's why concepts like family in the workplace are really hard. How many of you have heard anyone in the workplace ever say, oh, but we're like a family, oh, that's a red flag. It's a red flag because here's the reality. You can't fire your family. I would love to fire some of my family members. That's just not what happens. And most families are dysfunctional. Most are dysfunctional.

Speaker 1: 12:09

But when you equate family in the workplace to your personal life, who, which role do you think your boss plays in that? Right? A mom and dad? Yeah, very so. People really pay a lot of stock in that. Where some are like, no, I get it Clearly, that's not my familial ties. Others put a big point of this is me, this is who I am, and their identities start to get taken over by the workplace. So it's not I'm Beth, the mom of two. It is I'm Beth and I work at this company and this is my job.

Speaker 2: 12:41

It's been interesting watching as people are getting laid off. Yes, it's been interesting watching as people are getting laid off and they're getting laid off from companies that they have been with for five, 10, 15 plus years. And one of the things that when Mel and I talk to folks because we're on calls all the time with people when they get laid off, it is a grieving process A lot of times a deep grieving process because they did associate and identify so hard not only with the title that they had but with the company.

Speaker 2: 13:14

Because, I will argue that I think a lot of companies have positioned themselves as. You're part of this brand, you're part of this culture, you're lucky to be here, right, when you think about the safety net of your family. If your family were to disown you, you'd feel very similarly, and so I think there's this grief around, quite honestly, having that be ripped from you. And if you felt a deep sense of belonging and then all of a sudden you got laid off too, that does excuse my French. It feels like a huge mindfuck for a lot of people. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 13:47

And for a long time that was very taboo to talk about.

Speaker 1: 13:50

It's just the reality. Trauma is trauma. You don't need to be in the fields fighting to experience PTSD. There's a lot of different ways it occurs. Workplace PTSD is a very real thing, so a lot of the people I coach and I talk to are very anxious to talk to me about it because they believe that their trauma is not as important as other forms of trauma. Trauma can really be as small as a sadness you experience and as large as something physically happening to you in the workplace. That spectrum is just so huge.

Speaker 1: 14:24

I have one person that I talked to recently who had a real hard time identifying the first time that they experienced trauma, and what we were able to bring it back to was their five-year anniversary Came and went and no one recognized it. At the same time, everyone else on that team got recognized. No, that wasn't trauma. They experienced A lot of sadness that led them into this really unproductive zone where they unfortunately, they started to put up with more that came their way. You would think it might be the opposite, but they really just were trying again to get those gold stars from their manager who they thought didn't care about them.

Speaker 1: 15:03

And what could I have done wrong? In reality, that's something the manager probably forgot. It's sad, right. Maybe the workday alert didn't go off, who knows? And that's just one of the examples. And that was a spiral that kept going and going and then the trauma really occurred when they were out of sync with their manager. And then topics of resilience came up and instead of digging into the deep roots of what was going on in the workplace, resilience was dumped on the employee base. You need to put up with these things right.

Speaker 2: 15:35

but I find this interesting too, because when I think about belonging, it was like diversity and inclusion, then it was diversity, equity, inclusion, and then it was diversity, equity, inclusion and belongings. Yes, and a lot of the examples you've been giving are right around an employee and their manager, or an employee to employee. Yet sometimes in organizations it seems like we're putting belonging at this corporate level. Yes, there's a distance, there's a distance, and I'm curious about your thoughts on belonging in these big corporate initiatives versus belonging the way we do.

Speaker 1: 16:10

So I can break it into two things. One, yeah, belonging is not all or nothing. That's a really big common misconception. You can belong to part of something and not the whole. You may feel like you belong to the company and your team but not to your manager. Or you may feel like you belong to that manager and your team but not the company. You could swap it in and out, and that's why I think ERGs are especially fantastic and troublesome at the same time, because you feel fantastic usually in those groups and they are highly beneficial for you to really be able to identify and connect with people. However, that being said, when they don't connect back to the corporate initiative or the company doesn't do anything about the struggles of these ERGs, that's a problem, right, People have a harsher or a more thwarted sense of belonging, which means a lack of belonging. Another is that belonging is not DEI, and that's probably one of the biggest.

Speaker 1: 17:06

You asked me before I might change my answer. Dei is a barrier at times to belonging because when you ask people what belonging is in the corporate world, they now say D, E and I, and they're all very important topics. They're just very different. But I would challenge you to go to any corporate report out there that says report on DEIB, anything that has a belonging. And if you can find me one metric on belonging, I'd be very surprised. It's just not the same. They're sisters, not twins at times. How are they?

Speaker 2: 17:35

measuring it? What are the typical? Sorry, I should know this and I don't.

Speaker 1: 17:39

No, it's very hard to measure belonging, so that's why I'm working with the University of Pennsylvania to create a tool around that. But no, belonging is seen as something subjective and until we're able to make it more objective, it is very difficult, unlike diversity, which is typically done through representation, but I would challenge that. I love the topic of diversity, but I really am into diversity of thought and mind. I think it's incredibly important when we're talking about representation as well, so it's very different in that sense.

Speaker 2: 18:09

Yeah, there's a lot of work to be done there right. A lot of amazing work has been done and the journey continues, absolutely, I hope it doesn't stop you too, beth.

Speaker 1: 18:18

I'd it doesn't stop you too, beth. I'd love to hear more about the work that you're doing with the University of Pennsylvania, the tool that you are working on with them, sure. So a lot of the work I do is around how we construct our sense of belonging, understanding what the roots of that are, whether it's personality or it's how you make decisions. And when I was doing my dissertation, my goodness, a few years back, one of the things we determined is that people make decisions one of three ways for themselves, for the company or for a combination of both. So, as you can guess, the healthiest combination is when you have everything at once. So most people with a true sense of belonging have that combination. When we do it just for the company, it's typically what we call sacrificial belonging. Right, we have to give something up for it. We all know the sacrifices in the workplace the ones that miss their PTO to better the company, or the ones that are missing games to produce those reports. So the other thing is, if it's just for you, there's a few different ways you look at that, but it's not always the right way to do things. So what I've done with the University of Pennsylvania is we've developed a tool that looks to see how people make their decisions around belonging, and so what we're doing is really taking a look and working with different companies to see how the reports are coming out, if it's predicting people's propensity to leave companies or if it's predicting their propensity to thrive, based on the way they construct their sense of belonging. It's really interesting. What have you learned so far with the companies that you've worked with? Were there any ah-ha's that you were like, oh, that was unexpected, or anything that just reinforced what you thought? We've learned a couple of different things. A lot of the time it's not actually been what's through the tool, but it's really through the interview process about the societal norms of the company. So personality makes a very big difference. If you are a company that builds itself upon extroverts and you are an introvert in the company, it's going to be a lot harder for you to progress. Likewise, if you're in an introverted company with introverted leaders and you are an extrovert, it's also going to feel like you are just square round. It doesn't work that way. So I think what we've learned is that companies need to pay attention to what type of employees they have and making sure that everyone can survive and thrive.

Speaker 1: 20:57

Francesca, and I talk about this often that in the workplace, the responsibility of a lot of these things are on the individual, the team and the organization. So I'd love to cover all three from your perspective and the work that you've done. Yeah, from an organization standpoint, what are some steps that organizations can take to create that culture of belonging where people are thriving? There's a lot of ways I can answer this. I think one of the things they need to do is look at their policies. That's the first thing. They need to make it a more equitable playing field.

Speaker 1: 21:27

I think that most of us can agree that belonging is typically an authenticity measured against a very specific type of worker in the workplace. It's usually white male, that's the best way to describe it. The other thing I would say, on top of policies, is making sure that you do not have a culture of imposed belonging right so everyone belongs here. That's not the case and it makes people feel really bad.

Speaker 1: 21:51

There's this concept of duck syndrome. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but no, please tell us more. So think about a little duck floating along the river. You probably met like a brisk pace. In reality, that duck is working hard to paddle its legs to look that calm and easy. And a lot of the times the workplace imposing belonging or saying everyone should feel this way because we make everyone feel included or like they should have a sense of belonging makes people feel really uneasy about themselves and when that happens it produces the sense of belonging, uncertainty, right, I don't know if it's me or the company, and let's just say you are with people that are not being honest around you or worse, you've got the corporate cheerleaders. You're not necessarily going to be like hey, francesca, I know you go to every happy hour, but do you feel like you sometimes don't belong here? So I think that's one of the things that we do in the workplace as a corporation that needs to be reconsidered.

Speaker 2: 22:48

I tell you I've probably been listening to way too much Taylor Swift lately, but there is definitely this sense of betrayal sometimes, or even companies misrepresenting themselves and they're like, oh, everyone belongs here. We're such a fun culture when you look at literally the marketing of how some of these companies present themselves. Yes, and the expectation people have right, that dissonance when people don't experience it or they feel like they have the duck syndrome. It's got to be exhausting for people.

Speaker 1: 23:16

It is exhausting. And that's not to say that companies shouldn't promote a sense of belonging. But not everyone belongs here. Yeah, I think it's a culture we have. Yeah, it's like being more authentic, even in their own advertising to say we strive to foster that environment and consistently work towards achieving it, which acknowledges that it doesn't exist 100% of the time. It's a constant effort. I think that's more authentic than what some of the messaging is usually Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 23:47

And you had mentioned the fact that what should companies and the corporate level do, maybe versus teams? Yes, I'm a corporation that's looking to foster a stronger sense of belonging. I'm going to invest a belonging at the team level or the org level because, especially these bigger companies, that's where belonging is really taken out and brought into daylight, because the corporate vision and values they always get a little altered as you go down right. Different leaders live those values differently. Organizations reflect that. So taking a look at what my organization looks like and trying to create the best possible culture, the healthiest possible culture, that's what companies can do is really acknowledge and give that autonomy to their leaders at the org level, and then that also makes it a safer space for leaders at the team level to be able to do that as well. What can leaders do in terms of creating those moments, really checking in with their people around, how they're feeling in the workplace? What are some? Something someone can implement tomorrow, right, and just start doing if they're not doing anything today? So one of my favorite things to tell leaders is to really start to know their people. That doesn't mean you know where they live and what their backyard looks like, but it means knowing what's important to them. And one of the best, easiest things that any leaders out there listening can do is they can ask their employees what they liked about their last manager and what they didn't like, because that's really important I'm pretty sure we're talking about current managers, past manager and what they didn't like, because that's really important. I'm pretty sure we're talking about current managers.

Speaker 1: 25:22

The reality is we all take our past managers with us, typically up to three. So that means your favorite manager you take them with you. Your least favorite manager you take them with you and you are measuring that current leader that you're with against those great and not so great leaders. So if you're out there and you're a leader, you're going to want to say what did you like that they did. What didn't you like? And you're going to learn so much this year I asked my team those questions. I usually update it because not everyone feels the same after a year or remembers it the same. But I had said what do you like that your last leader did?

Speaker 1: 25:56

And someone had said they kept consistent meetings so they didn't move my one-on-ones, and that made me feel really good because it gave me anxiety every time I had to reschedule and I was guilty. I was one of those people that moved them around, so I stopped doing that. And another thing that someone said that they didn't like was being praised publicly. Accepting that kudos was hard for them in public, but they really did appreciate it in a one-on-one setting when you were giving very specific feedback of what they did. Well, those are just two tips that are really helpful. At least I find I love to hear it just checking in what are your needs specifically and really personalizing it versus kind of spreading it like peanut butter as if it works for everybody, just because you think that's the right thing to do.

Speaker 1: 26:42

Absolutely. It makes me think of that lawsuit that someone had when their birthday was recognized in the workplace but they didn't want their birthday recognized, and I think that's a perfect example. I know there was a lot of jokes that came with that lawsuit, but I was like that's so valid though. That's taking care of people and understanding what they do and don't want and paying attention to that Absolutely. What's interesting about that story with the employee that didn't want a public praise? He happens to be very publicly admired, so I just assumed that this is something he was comfortable with, and he was not, and ever since we changed the way we give him feedback and praise, the whole relationship has been so much more positive.

Speaker 2: 27:24

Yeah, I love the idea of the ghost, the blasted past that we all bring, because that's so freaking true. It's so true and that question of what did you love and what didn't you like is so informative because it's so personal and it's so emotional for people too.

Speaker 1: 27:44

So emotional. I actually talked to almost all of my past managers and so it's also just a good idea to keep in touch and sometimes keep it real. He likes to tell me when maybe sometimes I'm being a little more dramatic because she's got really great frame of reference for it. Sometimes I'm being a little more dramatic because she's got really great frame of reference for it. So you know, it's not a bad idea. It doesn't mean that you have to be best friends with your bosses. Obviously, your work friends' podcasts would tell you you're not going to be best friends with everyone, and nor should you. Yeah, yeah, I think getting to know your employees is super, super important. And knowing how they are as a unit if I haven't said that already, but understanding what your package deal looks like, that's really important. Knowing my boss, knowing why I stop work at 5.30 every day and then why I may go back on it 10, is important to me. I don't want to be seen as a workaholic, but at the same time, it's my comfort level and I also don't want to miss the time while my kids are awake. I dug out it should be completely acceptable and it is, but it's probably because we had that conversation and that transparency really goes both ways. I love that.

Speaker 1: 28:47

I love to talk about employees, because leaders are in there with their people. It gets into one-on-ones and then a team level, but they're not always in all of the stuff happening with the individual employees that kind of peer-to-peer interaction and what goes on there. And sometimes for folks, leaders are a huge impact to their experience and their day-to-day, but so are their colleagues right, and sometimes those peer-to-peer relationships can really make or break that sense of belonging as well. What can individuals do to foster belonging in the workplace? So I would say boundaries are a fantastic place to start, because boundaries are two things that we can control. We can't control other people how they react to our boundaries and we can't set boundaries for others. So I always like to say that communication is kindness in this regard, and allowing people to understand you a little bit better than they may by understanding what your boundaries are and why you hold firm to them, also gives them insight into your values and what's important to you. What can someone do when they're really struggling with feeling that sense of belonging, either on their team? What can they do if they're really struggling to find that?

Speaker 1: 30:06

My first piece of advice I give everyone is to understand if the situation is real or if it's a story they're telling themselves. Our internal narrative is extremely powerful. It is and unfortunately it's usually less positive that we want it to be. I really wish that we were having a conversation where we're talking about someone that had just so much faith in themselves and that they were talking about their narrative. Oh, my goodness, I just kicked butt on that demo, or that's typically not what happens, and there's a lot of anxiety and uncertainty. So I usually tell people, aside from looking at the story we're telling ourselves and making sure that it's realistic, it's also maybe doing a gut check, but against your own mantras in life. So for me, I can share the story that I will typically over-index on things. So I try to hold myself accountable to doing what someone's asked me to do and sometimes nothing more, which is really hard for me. And if I'm really not sure about that, I might go to a peer and say did you hear it? The same way, I heard this request.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Sometimes that makes a breeding ground to open up a little differently with people and it also cuts the drama down, because you don't want to just have that friend that you commiserate with at work and that's real easy to get into that trap. If you have another person, it's the drama triangle, so it just keeps going and going. We want to make sure that when we pick co-workers that become our friends in the office, that it's people we can trust and that you typically want to limit any of the difficult conversation within that person that you trust. Personally, I love to be friends with everyone, but when it comes to people that I really will bank on, I usually maybe pick one person that maybe knows a little bit more drama about me than others yeah, someone who can also help you check yourself if needed. Right and honest yeah, is that true? Just asking, is that really true? That's right. I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1: 32:07

There's a huge push in workplaces around bringing your authentic self. How can folks balance that need for individuality with their desire to fit in so they can be authentically them and bring and maintain that individuality while also feeling that sense of belonging? So I think the first step in doing that is understanding your values and what's important to you. So when you make decisions, you're indexing against them. Let's just say you notice bad behavior in the room.

Speaker 1: 32:33

You have Black colleagues that are not being heard, and diversity is a huge value to you, equity is a big value to you, and amplification If that's something that is going to keep you up at night, you need to speak up. I mean, let me just say that to me that is a huge value, so to me that is inherently doing the right thing. But, that being said, if that's going to happen just because other people are not amplifying their voices, it is part of my value system that I would need to be the one that stands up and says Mel just said that I really, or I love how Mel just told us that we are going to use the vending machine on the fourth floor?

Speaker 1: 33:12

I don't know, I have no good examples. This often happens to women right In meetings, where you need to step in and say that was a great point made by so-and-so. Yeah, that's right. And so I think understanding what your values are and I don't like the negative metaphors but understanding what a hill we're dying on is for us and what's not Not everything has to be a battle, right, so there are a lot of us that have the sense of justice in us and understanding what battles we should be fighting, and not If it's going to keep you up at night and it's going to eat at your soul because you've just betrayed yourself.

Speaker 1: 33:46

It's worth speaking up. Yeah, If not, one of the tricks I do is I typically hold three coins in my pocket and when I'm in a meeting, I make sure not to spend all three at once and not to speak more than that, because it's going to be really hard for me to tailor back. And so giving yourself strategies when you know you may be in a tough situation really key in the workplace. Yeah, I like that, and the three coins in your pocket is a nice reminder for folks. That's a very simple tactic to use.

Speaker 1: 34:16

It's also sensory, if you think about it. Yeah, I like that. I am wondering about different ways of working. Obviously, covid really blew up how we work, which is fantastic in so many ways, and now you have returned to office and people who are in the office and you have these hybrid working environments, and some are still 100% remote. Would you approach ways to foster belonging differently, based on the modality of how people are working? So COVID was terrible, but one of the things we got out of it is this ability to see people beyond the screen, and I think that's really important. I've always been a remote employee, so I knew I was to people. I was just sitting in this box here and then, when COVID happened, everyone was put in that position and I think it made people reevaluate where people work from and the fact that it didn't really matter. I will tell you that there is this concept of place belongingness, and place belongingness really sits with the fact that if it feels like home, it can be linked to a place. I've never been in a corporate headquarters where it's felt like home. No one serves me coffee, so no baristas at my house. That would be lovely, like sometimes it happens in the workplace and that's a luxury.

Speaker 1: 35:34

I think that people have a misconception that you need to be in an office to feel a sense of belonging, and I don't believe that's accurate and the research tells us it's not true. What does the research say about that? Because you hear all of these big organizations. A huge part of their argument for return to office is it's going to foster belonging. We've lost belonging and it feels like that's such a false narrative. What does the research say? The research says that unless it feels like home, it doesn't necessarily need to be placed belongingness. That being said, do I love to get together with my colleagues? I do, I'm one of those people that does, but that is because I'm an ambivert that leads towards the extrovert side. So I get so much energy from other people. Yeah, doers, but they just they get their stimulus from other places and that's okay. So while I do believe that people build a great sense of community while they're in the office I do it doesn't necessarily have to be done that way. And I'll tell you, almost all of my team and my organization that I manage is remote. We get along fantastic. We don't always agree, we love disagreeing, we love the debate, but it doesn't break our sense of belonging to be remote. I do think there are certain jobs where that collaboration in person is important, right, but I just happen to be in a space where it's not as firm and we believe that working from the office could also mean you're at a client or other places where you are set up and need to have those interactions, but, no, it does not give you a stronger sense of longing to be in an office.

Speaker 1: 37:17

We have, I think, what? Four, now maybe five generations in the workplace, which impacts so many things. We talk about individualization in their needs and that personalization. How do generational differences and especially in the time we're in now, like? How does that impact belonging in the workplace? So we have a lot of generations at once, as you mentioned, right, you've got the boomers, who really will challenge less when it comes to management and authority, because your job and your boss are sacred in a sense, and you've got the Gen Xers, who are still a little more likely to please I'm a Gen Xer, but at the same time, we'll take far less to get it done and we're not necessarily the purpose-driven generation that is currently in the work, coming up in the workplace where they've been taught that they can bring their authentic selves to work and they should bold people to standards that are different than maybe the millennials that came before them, that a little bit more different change in the way that we work. So I think all of those generations together learn from one another.

Speaker 1: 38:27

I think in the beginning it felt a little problematic, but I think it's forcing people out of their comfort zone, which helps everyone grow just a lot differently than we have in the past.

Speaker 1: 38:37

I would go as far as to say that the next generation will be probably Generation T, which is all around transition and how we deal with the world and look at it differently. So I honestly think all of this is bringing phenomenal diversity of thought that didn't exist necessarily before. I couldn't agree more. It just seems like it's a really good conversation that seems to be happening among everybody about how to make work better together Absolutely, and these were things we weren't talking about. So it is very interesting. We're also getting into different things that we didn't before when it comes to these generations. Like, we have grandparents now in the workplace and if you think about it before, people would retire early than they do now. So you didn't have that frame of reference, you have people working longer than they ever have and these shifts in generation and family responsibility are really shaping a different way that we look at the workplace.

Speaker 2: 39:33

I'm personally completely for it. Outside of like humans being humans, there's no reason why we shouldn't have been striving for a very deep sense of belonging all along. It's exciting to see this evolve, especially over the last, I'd say, five years, where it's been a big part of this discussion. I do want to talk about where is this going, but before I ask you that and I really appreciate having your insights in this because you're so researched on it, You're a practitioner of this I feel like you're the best person to ask this question and I'm going to ask you to give a grade Grade scale A, B, C, D, F, right Corporate America how well do organizations in corporate America foster belonging?

Speaker 1: 40:16

In America B minus.

Speaker 2: 40:21

B minus. Rationale for the great. Rationale for the great.

Speaker 1: 40:25

Because a B is positive but depending on how you look at it, some people think it's really negative in this cultural perfectionism that we have and others are completely satisfied by it. I thought about dropping it down, but the C being average, I think I still think it's a bit above average because the awareness layer is there. I don't talk to people and have to talk about why belonging is important anymore If you're just accusing to people about what it is and how we got to where we are with it. So I'd say solid.

Speaker 2: 40:58

B minus.

Speaker 1: 40:59

I like that answer.

Speaker 2: 41:00

I like that answer. I feel like most employees would answer that too.

Speaker 1: 41:04

I'd agree. I usually think that people are going to answer lower and they don't. I think a lot of it also is because people are nervous to tell the truth. They are, yeah, nervously trying to get back to their employer.

Speaker 2: 41:16

I also am wondering, because there's such a morphing of our values towards work too, I wonder if people are taking the pressure off of organizations to be everything to them. Now I'm looking at this more transactually, or I'm looking at this as a Mel. I'm sorry, I'm going to use this analogy again. I'm not looking at you as someone I want to marry. I'm looking at you as someone I want to have a good time with tonight.

Speaker 1: 41:37

So it's like the pressure's off a little bit, my hope is because people realize they don't have to get their sense of belonging from work. Yeah, so we have this concept of dissimilated belonging, where you don't necessarily need to be a cultural ambassador. Some people just want to do their jobs and go home. Yeah, that has to be okay. We have to make that okay and I think this new generation does that, yeah, in a sense for us. So I want to say that's becoming a bit more mainstream, that people don't need to get their satisfaction and their purpose from work. Yeah, that's the generation I think that we'll see come in as well. It's so healthy, that's such a new healthy outlook. We'll see come in as well. It's so healthy, that's such a new healthy outlook.

Speaker 1: 42:13

Because we're all Gen X on this call, you know, like that was a transition I think we probably all made over time. But it's nice to see that people are not moving away from putting their whole identity into the work Absolutely. And then there's these companies that are shifting their values to be really about the work they're doing and not necessarily the destinations for belonging, which is huge. The company I work for, I have to say I'm proud because we really do look at powering smarter treatments for patients, and so, if you really break that down, that's a phenomenal aspiration and we really work very hard to it and we really work very hard to it. You would never say in our values that we have to feel a certain way or do a certain thing or act the way to get there, and for us that takes a lot of pressure off of things, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 43:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:02

I also think it's an accurate representation. Yeah, this is my thing. Can we get back to accurate representation? I'm not judging you on what you're saying you are. What I'm asking you to do is be honest about who you are so you give an accurate representation. That's my play. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. All right, so this is exciting. Mel and I were talking about this the other day, because I don't know about you, beth, but you feel the energy shifting, especially this year around work around speed. This year around work around speed, around change, around everything. And belonging has made wonderful progress in terms of educating people about value, what it is, and I'm curious about, when we look at the next five years, how do you see the concept of belonging evolve? How do you see the needs for employees and organizations evolve? What does the next five years of this work look like?

Speaker 1: 43:55

What I hope it looks like, I should say, is that it is a place where people don't have to sacrifice who they are to be themselves. I think part of braving the workplace is being yourself every day in a world that tells you to be something else. So I'm hoping that the workplace in five years is more representative of your towns and the people on the streets. That's a really aspirational goal I have for the workplace, and I also hope that people can understand themselves a little better and don't feel as pressured to be all of the things all of the shoulds, the coulds and woods that the rest of the world would like us to be.

Speaker 2: 44:33

I love that I love that you talked about how leaders can create a sense of belonging. I'm curious about making teams more representative of our work environment. They're more representatives of the way that our towns look like. Is there anything that you would have that a manager could do, a leader could do, to say I really want to make sure that I can start to achieve that now.

Speaker 1: 44:53

I think it's looking at your team and the diversity on your team. Are people in your meetings nodding their heads or are they arguing comfortably with you? Are they debating? Do they speak up or are they just laughing at your corny jokes? I think that's the things I listen to at least. I think it's important to really be able to be in a team that communicates dissent.

Speaker 3: 45:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:17

I think it's also important to share experiences with one another. You're not going to share everything, and nor is it appropriate to share everything in the workplace, but there's certain life moments that we all have, and being able to comfortably speak to them at the appropriate level of detail is really important, and I think that's why people feel such a pull to go back to the office, because you do those things without thinking about them. We always talk around about the water cooler and talking about the latest episode of whatever you watch, but it goes deeper than that. It really does. It's a little harder to hide your emotions in an office yeah, absolutely, it's not very acceptable, and that's it really does. It's a little harder to hide your emotions in an office yeah, absolutely, very acceptable. And that's what people miss. I think they miss that sense of camaraderie, and we don't necessarily need to be a person for that. We just need to understand how to break down barriers that are preventing us from doing that.

Speaker 3: 46:04

Yeah, love it, love it.

Speaker 2: 46:31

Rapid round.

Speaker 1: 46:32

Yes, we're going to do rapid round. I promise this is painless, okay, and it's just possible. It's meant to be fun. Some of our best conversation happens here and the goal is to answer pretty quickly, like your very first thought that comes to mind. And if you want to expound upon it, absolutely you can, so we'll leave that up to you. And if you want to expound upon it, absolutely you can, so we'll leave that up to you. Sound good, perfect, okay. What is the best belonging initiative you've seen so far? The best belonging initiatives I've seen so far is through Brene Brown, who talks about braving the wilderness and the ability to be yourself and the comfort and bravery to be yourself. What does belonging mean to you personally in three words Don't sacrifice yourself.

Speaker 3: 47:23

Oh shit.

Speaker 2: 47:23

That's good, it's good, it's good. I see merch, beth. I see a lot of merch happening.

Speaker 1: 47:30

What are the top three factors that make a community and we see work as another kind of community feel inclusive? Inclusive is what other people allow for you to be, versus belonging is what you decide for yourself, okay. So if I'm talking about inclusive, I would say it's transparency, I would say it's care, and care is a really big spectrum, right? Care is thoughtfulness and it's also speaking your name in a room of opportunity. And care can also be boundaries, and maybe I would go with boundaries, now that we're talking about that as well. I think inclusive, having that level of boundaries, promotes all the things we just spoke about. And with that and that, because that was inclusiveness, now flip it with belonging. So what are the top three factors that make a community feel like others belong? Individuality, like others belong, individuality I'm going to go with care, because we know care is the number one influence that a manager can do to make their employees feel like they belong. And trust I like it. Okay, trusting ourselves and trusting others yeah, the trusting. Trusting yourself first, of course, so important, but it's also trusting others too, in that everyone starts with positive intent. That's right.

Speaker 1: 48:55

Yeah, if you could recommend one book, movie, article on this topic of belonging for someone, something that's deeply resonated with you and you're like I need you to see that, read that, listen to that. What would you recommend to someone today? It's a really tough one. Bell Hooks has a lot of phenomenal topics around belonging. Maya Angelou is probably my idol when it comes to this conversation, because she presented belonging in the best, truest way. Belonging to nothing and everything at the same time is just magical. When you can be that free to belong to nothing, you belong to everything. So I'm going to go with bell hooks and Maya Angelou. I love it. That's really powerful. When you belong to nothing, you belong to everything. That's right. If you could have every company do just one thing differently tomorrow, what would that be? Get to know their employees and what matters to them. How about?

Speaker 2: 50:02

leaders the same and individuals be.

Speaker 1: 50:11

If I could have one wand and I would wave it around, it would be for people to be kinder to themselves.

Speaker 1: 50:15

It really would be.

Speaker 1: 50:16

I think we put a lot of harsh, in harsh words, harsh feelings out there.

Speaker 1: 50:22

A lot of it just creates this crazy level of uncertainty and anxiety and then, a lot of the times, the exclusive nature of that is isolating and stressful, and that's a lot of the times we keep it to ourselves until it just boils over and you either explode or, unfortunately, all of the physical ramifications come into play, because we know that this becomes physically painful when we feel like we have a thwarted sense of belonging and it's unfortunate that belonging is an antecedent to suicide. When we feel like we have a thwarted sense of belonging and it's unfortunate that belonging is an antecedent to suicide. When we feel like the world is better off without us or we find that we don't believe we're making a difference for ourselves and others. So I would love to see people be kinder to themselves overall. I think that's such a really good message. I'll share my best friend if I'm like down on myself, which I think we're all guilty of it trying to get better at it, but it's the first.

Speaker 1: 51:17

Of course, you're your own worst critic. My best friend will say hey, don't talk about my friend like that. We just stop. So it's just little things like when you're talking about yourself, be like hey, don't talk about you like that. I think it's good. I think that Thank you so much for this and for your authenticity and for sharing all of this good research with us and tips with us on how to have better belonging at work, and we cannot wait to read your book when it comes out soon. Thank you, and thank you for the phenomenal work you're doing on this podcast. I bet you people tune in and they just love it because you both seem like you're friends with the podcast guests. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 52:07

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Spotting Trustworthy Employers

Your Work Friends Podcast: Spotting Trustworthy Employers with Adam Horne

Job advertisements sell dreams…

But reality? That’s another story. Job descriptions, interviews, Glassdoor reviews—there’s truth in the subtext. Adam Horne, co-founder of Open Org is on a mission: to build a more trusted, transparent world of work. So, we wanted to get him on the pod to talk about how in the hell do you do that? Turns out, it's not only doable (let's start with employees having ZERO surprises around biggies like compensation, benefits, etc), but, when done authentically - can improve (like majorly improve) hiring, retention and overall health of an organization.  

Our conversation covers aligning internal and external transparency, the costs of cultural mismatches and the unintentional humor (or not) of hiring managers who promise more than they deliver.  Most importantly, this episode is loaded with practical advice for creating genuine, transparent work environments. If you want to avoid the smoke and mirrors and find a workplace that walks the talk, don’t miss this one.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

So we're of the view that there needs to be some sort of level of openness and transparency to call yourself transparent to a degree, and we provide that level of structure, but we don't necessarily prescribe where that transparency should be and necessarily how deep that should go. So the way that I try and talk about it with companies is work on defining it for yourself first. What does that look like? And that for me, starts of understanding, like why is this word important? If you're putting on your career site or your job ads or just putting it out there, there's got to be a reason why you're saying it, and if there's not, it's just an empty word.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Mel, good Monday to you. Good Monday to you, yes. Yes, I'm going to start saying that. It just feels like a thing, it feels like it could be a thing Feels like Shakespeare Good morrow is good morrow thing, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 0:59

I'm making that up.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Good morrow is a thing, that's a thing.

Speaker 3: 1:03

Good morrow Good morrow to you.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Well, I'm stoked to talk about Adam Horn. Adam Horn is the co-founder of OpenOrg, and what I love about the work OpenOrg is doing is they're on a pretty cool mission to rebuild trust by bringing clarity to the world of work, and they're doing that by making sure that people have zero surprises at work, like when you're interviewing for a job. They want you to have zero surprises around things like comp, culture, benefits and career development, and Mel and I were really taken with what they're doing and we had a chance to talk to him. And Mel, what did you think of that conversation?

Speaker 3: 1:40

I thought it was refreshing. It was really eye-opening to hear the perspective from Adam and his experiences working with organizations and truly the benefits of transparency, which feels like a no-duh situation, but not a lot of orgs are doing it, so I'm just really excited by this work.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:02

The other thing I really liked, too, was his twist on this. This is not open Oregon Adam dictating what transparency needs to look like they're really working with organizations to say, hey, what is authentic, what works for them, what works for you? Yeah, it's a really cool way of thinking about the zero surprise game for employees and whether they're coming into a company or whether they're in a company as well.

Speaker 3: 2:25

And the bottom line for your business.

Speaker 2: 2:27

A thousand percent Packed within this discussion are things that organizations can do, what individuals can do and what can you do if you're leading a team and you want to be more transparent, even if your organization might not be. So here's our conversation with Adam Horne. Adam Horne, welcome to the pod. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 1: 2:56

Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for having me on. It's awesome.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Yeah, adam, you've had a really interesting career, right. You've started multiple organizations. Now you're pulling into OpenOrg. You're a new father as well too, so you've got like a lot going on, probably trying to get some sleep here and there. Just super curious as to how did you even get into this work? How did you get to where you are today?

Speaker 1: 3:20

Yeah, I gave up on sleep a long time ago.

Speaker 1: 3:23

It's like this way, my latest uh child is my third and I've got three under six now and I've navigated the, the three kids and businesses etc over the the period of having COVID and stuff going on as well. So yeah, it's been interesting the last sort of four or five years, to be honest. But yeah, my, my career as a whole over the last sort of 12, 13 years is is all centered around people and talent. So nine of those 12 years as a founder or co-founder myself as well. So I've navigated the complexities and challenges of being a founder and trying to build and run a business, always bootstrapped, always anywhere between sort of five employees up to 70, 80 employees so that size but challenging in its own way but also a lot of that time actively working with clients externally on their hiring and their people strategy. So over that time I've had a lot of exposure to working with startups or scale-ups all over the world hundreds of them over the years and have, from a hiring perspective in particular, I've seen a very clear difference in terms of how companies benefit from being transparent or not. I've worked with some really open, transparent companies and you just tell when you walk through the door and you settle in that this is a very open, transparent environment. I've got resources, information landing on my lap and your job becomes very easy, regardless of what you're doing, but particularly when you are in that role where you're dealing with bringing new people into the business, being able to offer clarity and depth to candidates and applicants before they join, you see the benefit of that when they walk through the door it's really clear and things like attrition, retention, all of those sort of key metrics that businesses look at to try and point them towards some level of organizational health, feel really clear, really nice.

Speaker 1: 5:09

I've also had the benefit on the flip side, of working with companies that are incredibly secretive, some by design but some just through pure chaos and uncertainty and lack of communication. But as an example, I've been parachuted into businesses before where I've been told I'm not allowed to know what funding round we've just done because it's a bit secretive. So if candidates ask an interview, just tell them. You can't let them know. And I've been given about 10 different values from different employees who don't really know what values the business has.

Speaker 1: 5:39

So that end of the spectrum effectively in terms of the way businesses operate and you can still hire, you can still get people through the door, but I've seen what happens after people join and then, generally speaking, you've got that sort of revolving door type situation in those types of business and you see the struggles and the cost and the time it's been trying to just maintain headcount, let alone grow. So over that time I've had a really clear view on what transparent culture looks like and what that benefit is from being more transparent, and I've been lucky enough, whilst running my own businesses alongside that, to be able to pull that experience into how I build my own companies as well, and I've always defaulted to my own level of transparent, my own level of open, and it's worked incredibly well for me. So that, as a bit bit of a backstory, is where I come to today as regards to launching OpenOrg.

Speaker 2: 6:28

We want to talk about OpenOrg because we've seen this conversation about how transparent organizations are evolved, especially, I feel like, over the last and I could be wrong on the numbers, but it feels like especially over the last four years. Five years. Is you need to put this information out there or this is now the expectation? So I'm loving these conversations around now. Transparency is the expectation from a marketplace perspective. So, Adam, what does OpenOrg do?

Speaker 1: 6:51

The way we come in to it really is. I co-founded OpenOrg with an old friend of mine and we've known each other for 12 years, so we've had this talk track for 12 years, even about the world of work and culture and how it's broken and one day we'll fix it. And we've talked I don't want to name names, but talked about the damage that toxic review sites do to employers and to applicants and so on and so forth and how one day we'll find a new way to rebuild trust in terms of that intersection between you know, applying to a role and starting in the right type of business for you. So that's where a lot of the conversation about open org has come up and that's exactly where we sit. We want to get to the point with open org where we can help companies not just become internally transparent with their employees.

Speaker 1: 7:34

That's a really good, healthy place to be, but it only does so much for us. You've got to mirror as much of that as possible externally. There's some things you maybe aren't comfortable doing and that's fine as a limit, but there's no benefit just to being internally transparent For us. There's huge benefits to opening that door a little bit more and showing people under the bonnet, showing people exactly what they're going to be getting when they come in, because without that, people are coming into your business with the wrong expectations. Without that, people are coming into your business with the wrong expectations. So Open Org operates exactly that intersection of employer brand hiring and both internal and external transparency and trying to help employers get more aligned across that spectrum to build healthier alignment across that entire employee journey.

Speaker 2: 8:21

It's interesting when you look at why you should really think about transparency as an organization. I'd like to take it from the employee side a little bit more and also from the organization side, because one of the things you talk about is really to have employees have zero, zero surprises. When you start a new job and I personally felt that I think we all have right where you thought you were getting into a gig, you thought it was one thing, and then into it you're like, oh hell, this is this is not this at all. You talked about this a little bit earlier, but I'm wondering if you can walk us through what the benefits are to have zero surprises as an employee so much across that entire life cycle.

Speaker 1: 8:57

If you look at some of the sort of stats and the research out there around people leaving new hires leaving roles within the first 90 days or so, I think there's a stat out there and I take them with a pinch of salt because you hear different things and different things, but there's so much research on this ultimately around how many people leave roles. I think it's something like 30% of new hires leave roles within 90 days. Such a waste of time for everyone. Such a waste of time for everyone the money you spend interviewing, hiring, the time you spend in the salaries for paying all of that stuff to get into that. It's such a waste of time for everyone involved. And then you have to start again to rehire all because and most of those people leaving site misalignment on cultural role as one of the big reasons for them leaving. And then there's other studies out there that link to that.

Speaker 1: 9:43

Four in ten hiring managers have admitted to lying to candidates about a role or a culture or how business operates. So lying yeah, they actually these are the hiring managers actually admit to lying about this and this is like a resume builder survey study that you can go out there and find online. That's just the people who admit to it. It there's probably more over and above that who haven't admitted to it, but again, just at that interview stage, in terms of attracting talent, attracting candidates, there's a whole lot of problems going on there. So there's a time factor that is being wasted here. There's cost, there's money. There's also well-being and mental health involved here, particularly for the candidates and the employees, but also for the hiring managers, and my co-founder, john, has had this himself as a hiring manager in a larger corporate business, hiring people knowing that he's selling the wrong version of what people are going to get. But he's in this corporate environment where he's just feeling like he has to hire and grow and his own well-being and mental health took real damage because of that, which led to him leaving because of that situation too.

Speaker 1: 10:49

So there's a lot of reasons why transparency really is important in building trust at that early stage. But then, when you look inside the business internally, day to day, there's so many things that point to the benefits of of being transparent and opening, communicative with individuals when it comes. But once they're in, the benefit of being transparent and communicative with your employees is really important as well when you're thinking about to use layman terms like getting everyone aligned and on the same page. That's a lot of what ceos talk about wanting to get and wanting to see. That's all about communication and getting people aligned and understanding where are we going, what are we doing, and that can boil down to so many different things internally in terms of what transparency does look like, and that will differ for different people, but the benefits are there when it comes to productivity, performance, profitability. The research is out there.

Speaker 2: 11:41

What do you think really drives organizations to not be transparent, because we see this so much, especially as you get in these big behemoth organizations. There are some that do this, okay, but I would argue that most of for us, the fortune 500, I don't know if they do this really well. What is holding organizations back from being transparent?

Speaker 1: 12:04

Lots of different factors that could be founder mentality. Obviously that's probably more prevalent in smaller businesses. But if you have a more traditional CEO founder who doesn't believe in seeing employees is that they're equal ultimately and understanding the power of employee could bring when you think about things like co-creation and just communication, they see them as workers rather than, again, equals. That creates silos immediately in how companies are structured and how hierarchies work and those silos immediately cause problems with communication and what's shared and what's not shared. So there's a founder ce leadership mentality, mindset thing that is really common and we see that so much with the people leaders we speak to.

Speaker 1: 12:48

There are some instances where companies in fairness are operating in certain industries or environments where they can't share certain information and that's completely fair. But I think what I see happen there is, if they're operating in this sort of environment or industry where it's a little bit more secretive or confidential, that stops them being transparent in ways that they still could be. They suddenly put the shutters down and they use it almost as an excuse to say we can't share this, so it means we can't share anything else. We try and find ways of showing them actually there's still some really relevant information you can still share.

Speaker 1: 13:21

That's safe and okay, but the default to being closed and secretive because of that and I guess the other one probably is some companies that have just grown either very quickly or very slowly over time, with a certain mindset, with a certain culture, and it's almost too much for them to unravel now, particularly in a larger corporate sort of environment. You've got problems with pay equality and equity across the entire business. Where do you start? How do we unravel that? What do we do? It's almost easier just to keep pushing on in the direction we're going and hope that it never causes us too many problems or assume that if it does cause us problems, it's going to be cheaper for us than having to rework all of this and rebalance salaries and so that there's some companies that may be too far down the road to care about it.

Speaker 2: 14:08

It's just like that big nod of Christmas lights or something that you're like we're just not even going to handle.

Speaker 3: 14:14

Just walk away slowly. Oh gosh, adam. It's so shocking, as someone who worked in talent acquisition, to hear that hiring managers would lie in an interview. And I would say why? Just why, because people are going to find out as soon as they start the job. So it's just an interesting choice to me.

Speaker 1: 14:37

Yeah, I think there's pressure from above. Particularly when you work in a larger corporate type environment, I think you probably are more likely to just feel this pressure from above to hit targets when it comes to hiring for your team. You just do what you need to do to get people through the door and you probably have more resources around you as well, so you don't think about the cost. And when it comes to time that's invested in hiring, you've got a TA team that will. Yeah, they do. They just do their magic stuff in the background and you don't really appreciate how much work goes into that as a hiring manager sometimes. So there's lots of again reasons why people might do it. But yeah, I was shocked to see that as well.

Speaker 2: 15:14

I think I've lied. I think I've lied. Have you? Yeah, I think I have not. Let me ask you all this Is this a lie? Like when you feel like you're probably out the door anyway, but you're hiring people and you're like, yeah, the culture is great.

Speaker 3: 15:29

I actually won't say that. If someone asks me interesting, I will just what's the culture like and I've been honest.

Speaker 1: 15:36

I'll give you the good, the bad and the ugly, because I think you deserve to know it so I had this conversation with someone recently who's a I won't again name names because it's a bit of a delicate one, but it was a people leader. I think there was an m&a event. Their business has been acquired, everything would change. They were basically checked out and said I'm committed to moving on. Now everything's changed. That's not what we've built anyway, because they're in a people lead a role. They were heavily involved in hiring and interviewing.

Speaker 1: 16:04

So we that touched on that discussion of what should I be doing, and I guess my advice was similar to the. What Melza said there is that the most positive thing you can do now is try and make sure that anyone else that walks through that door and joins that business is aligned, because even though you don't think it's a great place to work anymore for you, it doesn't mean it's terrible for everyone, and there are still people out there who really will align with that culture. Even if you think it's crazy, it doesn't make any sense, there are people who might like it. So do what you can to present facts and, rather than being opinionated, try and talk explicitly about what culture looks like here, which I think actually is what so many companies don't actually understand at the starting point is like what is culture here? How do we describe it and understand it, rather than giving an opinion on how fun it is here?

Speaker 3: 16:57

Either happy hours yeah, yeah understood, yeah we have a foosball table. No, I'm just kidding that pods. No, and it's interesting because the cost I thought I read this week that what they previously thought the cost of making the wrong hire was significantly low to compare, comparing to what the actual true cost of that is. And, adam, I'm sure you must have some number that you know about. What is the cost of that at times? What could it be up to?

Speaker 1: 17:25

Yeah, I again chatted about this yesterday. I can't really give you a figure because I just keep seeing all these different figures out there, in different, yeah, but it's high. The one that seems to stick in my mind is up to two thirds of someone's salary to replace. So if someone's on $90,000 a year, it could cost you 60k to just replace them. And again circling back to the benefits of being open and transparent, the more you can share up front, it's not just about getting people aligned to the right culture. It's not just about getting people aligned and to the right culture. But there's so many benefits around onboarding and ramp up time and getting people to a point where they are more productive in the early days within your business. So companies are always looking at like how can we shorten that ramp up time so that people are effectively making us money sooner, which is completely fair? How do we do that? The more share, the more you provide up front, the quicker that happens.

Speaker 3: 18:37

What does a good open culture look like from your perspective?

Speaker 1: 18:43

that's a really interesting question. It's really hard to answer as well, because people ask us quite a lot like how do you define transparency? And this is the whole world that we're in. So we, we don't define it. We were very keen from the outset to make sure that we aren't the ones trying to define what transparent looks like.

Speaker 1: 19:01

That's part of the problem for me, like some of these awards and accolades out there that you can win about we've got great culture or a great place to work. The problem is you're prescribing to someone else's view of what good looks like You're jumping through hoops and like ticking boxes view of what good looks like you're jumping through hoops and like ticking boxes. So we're of the view that there needs to be some sort of level of openness and transparency to call yourself transparent to a degree, and we provide that level of structure, which I won't dive too deeply into, but we've got an assessment and a framework companies can follow. So we do have some level of it, but we don't necessarily prescribe where that transparency should be and necessarily how deep that should go. So the way that I try and talk about it with companies is work on defining it for yourself first. What does that look like? And there's a very high level journey that, for me, starts with understanding like why is this word important? If you're putting on your career site or your job ads or just putting it out there, there's got to be a reason why you're saying it, and if there's not, it's just an empty word. So where I tend to see it, there's two paths.

Speaker 1: 20:00

Typically, when it does work well is it's either heavily linked to your product, your value prop idea you're doing something that's bringing transparency to your customers or whatever that might be, via a platform or a product, and you can lean into transparency as a business yourself, which works really well or it ties heavily into your values and when you dig a little bit deeper and understand what those values are and why, that's when you can start to work with companies to help them understand what they should be leaning into and what they should be sharing more of.

Speaker 1: 20:28

I'll give you an example. Company I worked with recently talked a lot about they believe their strength is in having a diverse team, but they offered nothing around diversity, no transparency externally around what diversity looked like for them. I talked to them about the fact that they talk about strength and diversity and this is a really core value for them. That's an opportunity to be transparent and double down in that particular area. So, long story short, transparency is going to mean different things to different people, but I ask companies to look at their culture, their values, intrinsically to that, and look at where they can double down. You don't have to share everything across the entire spectrum, but think about what it means to your business, find ways you can double down and over index in certain ways, and that starts building a little bit of meaning behind the word for you as well.

Speaker 3: 21:13

So it's more personalized, depending on your business. I know at OpenOrg you're going in. You're taking a look at this with them, so it might not necessarily be like this is what good looks like. But in terms of leading practices, for example, what would something like open compensation what's a leading practice you might recommend, regardless of that company's personal mission? What advice would you offer?

Speaker 1: 21:41

We've still got some like minimum standards that we would say people should try and attain and get to, and then the optional. This is how you elevate it if you want to go crazy and go for it basically buffer style but for us, the minimum expectation, ideally, is to get to the point where you can comfortably put a salary or a salary band on a job advert when you're hiring. Now that, for us, is really important because you're then providing some external transparency, building trust with talent, reverse engineering that. How do we get to that stage? There's a lot of work that goes into that before you can get to that stage. So you've got to work on your compensation philosophy, your bands and your levels.

Speaker 1: 22:19

How do we benchmark our salaries? Where do we get that data from? We encourage companies to share that internally as well, as much as you possibly can, and if you can't, that's okay, but as an absolute minimum, what people really want to see is how is this decision being made? Whatever I I'm being paid, that's fine.

Speaker 1: 22:38

How have you come up with that decision? What data have you used and where have you got it from and how has that been assessed? So it's the why and the how behind the decision is actually really key for me as a minimum requirement. People don't care about what their colleagues being paid, necessarily, as long as they can see what they're being paid is fair and they feel that that lines up with what they should be getting paid. That's really key. So again, minimum expectation provide the how and the why behind the decisions with the things like pay and hopefully get to the point where you can comfortably put a salary on an advert and not have chaos ensue internally where people are reapplying for their own jobs because they see that you're paying someone else 30k more.

Speaker 3: 23:18

I never really understood why that isn't public information, because people are going to find out anyway, because they talk about it. So it's interesting to me that they don't share the process, because it is an in-depth process to go through salary band review each year and it's good for folks when they're talking about their year end and bonus and seeing where they're at and if they have room to grow. It's a good discussion to have with your people.

Speaker 1: 23:43

It's hard work and it takes a long time and that puts a lot of companies off and it won't suddenly mean that everything goes perfectly. You're still going to have some really tough, awkward, tricky conversations with employees who are unhappy about what they're paid, why they're paid it. It's not going to make everything go away, but it builds so much trust as a starting point so that when you have that conversation, people feel like they trust you. They can see it, it's open and it's a starting point for a conversation effectively. And you've got that backup. Most businesses have done their working out. They've got some data source behind them. That should build some confidence in you to have that conversation and say, look, we haven't just plucked this from thin air, this is what we've used, so share it.

Speaker 3: 24:24

It's honest and it helps others really understand the process, because I think if you're not in comp, it does feel like a mystery. Did you just throw a dart at the dartboard and pick this number? So it's good to include that. What about some leading practices in terms of company culture?

Speaker 1: 24:40

yeah, so we culture is one of the pillars under our framework and it's probably like one of the broader ones. What we try and get companies to do is really think about what does culture mean here? What does it look like? Because I think the default for a lot of companies when you look at career pages is like we've got great culture and then there's like a picture of a team playing like crazy golf or whatever they're doing on a team social and that like sums up culture on the face of it. And we're trying to get companies to start moving away from that.

Speaker 1: 25:07

Don't start sharing like all the positive employee stories of it's fun to work here, it's great. Start sharing some facts and reality around, like how do we succeed as a team? What is the sort of unique DNA or blend of how we work, our ways of work that enable us to work well together and succeed? And how do we learn? How do we fail? How do we thrive? How do we like communicate?

Speaker 1: 25:28

There's so much you can gain from understanding how a team communicates day to day. Is it synchronous? Asynchronous Boundaries have reset to communicate. Communicates day to day. Is it synchronous? Asynchronous boundaries have reset to communicate. It might seem like a lot of information, but you can get that across to people really nicely on on wiki or careers page or a job advert.

Speaker 1: 25:46

The companies that do this well do really well and they hire people who succeed really well in their business. So for us, that's culture. It's thinking more about operational excellence rather than that word culture. And when you start breaking it down like that and thinking in that way, you can actually look at some of those areas around communication and documentation and meetings. That's one of the areas under our culture pillar is encouraging companies to talk more about their approach to meetings. Engineers in particular, and others as well. Now, to be honest with you, really benefit and enjoy having blocks of time for like, deep work and focus. They don't want to be sucked into six hours of meetings a day. So start talking to people more about your approach to meetings as a business and people have the opportunity to opt in or out. That's like what we refer to as culture, rather than the coffee, the beanbags, all the other stuff.

Speaker 3: 26:38

Yeah, that's how we work around here. Right, that's all good stuff to highlight. What about benefits? How do you feel about leading practices there?

Speaker 1: 26:46

Yeah, another bugbear, and this is hard right. Like you can only get so much information on some careers page, for example, or a job advert, but they have defaulted over time to just being a little bit vague and shiny and like you can't really see much. So you see, like competitive salary mentioned, like just go a little bit deeper, even if it's an extra line to say we benchmark and pay on the 75th percentile. You can't just say it's competitive and that's going to suddenly mean it's competitive to everyone. Someone could be working for the you know business that pays 90th. Someone could be working for somewhere that's 30th.

Speaker 1: 27:20

You can't just say that and have it apply to everyone. So just add some meaning. So, generally speaking, best practice on benefits when we work with companies and look at this is just really I don't want to say tearing apart, that sounds a bit aggressive but like line by line, going through each benefit that they've listed and actually looking at how can you elevate that and add a little bit more clarity to what that is. And I think maternity leave, paternity leave, is a big one. So many companies write enhanced parental leave.

Speaker 3: 27:48

What does that even mean?

Speaker 1: 27:50

A week and if so, how much? Buy or would you offer 12 months full pay? Just tell people what it is. Actually, it's not a deal breaker for most people. It just helps them understand and plan ahead and think what does that mean for me financially if I do join here and I do decide to have a child? And it's not a deal breaker, but it helps set expectations and it's one of those things, famously, that's always been really hard to find out before you join a business.

Speaker 3: 28:14

Yeah, it's so interesting to me because my experience in organizations one that I was interviewing with or to have worked with although there's information provided, it's so high level and so vague and usually it's not until you get to the offer stage where someone will finally meet with you to get into the details. And I always think that's a disservice, Because if you're just exploring an organization, you want to be able to say what does this exactly look like, so everyone's happy in the end, You're not waiting all the way through.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Six interviews have happened, You've wasted five hours of everyone's time, You're at the offer stage and you lose that candidate because they didn't like the benefit package that they're getting Another example and one company that does this really well and you some might argue it's a bit overkill, but health insurance might work differently in the uk to the us. I don't know whether it's a little bit more comprehensive and everything's covered regardless, but absolutely not over here, like even if you have insurance.

Speaker 2: 29:11

It's absolutely like it's garbage. It's garbage.

Speaker 1: 29:14

I don't want to say I made the assumption. But it's the same here as well. There are some companies that say we offer health cover. Great, on the face of it, brilliant, I'm excited. But then you join and you realize, okay, it's just for me, it's not for my family. I didn't realize that. Or you realize, okay, I've got a very specific, rare condition that's not covered by this particular policy, so that's not a benefit to me. Now, and there's a company called Juro and others do this as well, but I know about Juro. You can, on their notion, you can dig deep on their benefits, click into their health cover and actually look at the exact policy document that they've got for their business. And it's long, it's in depth, but you can actually go and find out.

Speaker 1: 29:51

Is my specific condition covered, which is great.

Speaker 3: 29:54

Yeah, that's fantastic because that's the stuff people need to know when they're moving, especially when it impacts your family, as you mentioned, if you find out after the fact. Oh wait, that actually happened to a friend of mine where she found out with her new job, it only extends to her, it doesn't extend to her family.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So, yeah, I think a lot of organizations are doing really cool things too. I worked for an organization where, after I had my son, they flew my breast milk like overnight yeah Back to my house, which was like $800 a pop, and they did that for every single mother. And that, to me, is I don't know why you guys aren't screaming this from the effing rooftops. Yeah, there's also stuff that the organization could be screaming from the rooftops and they're not. Yeah, there's also stuff that the organization could be screaming from the rooftops and they're not.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Yeah, and this is again it's personal choice in terms of how much effort you want to put into it, but there are companies that will have. You know that we call them handbooks in the UK and try not to refer to it too heavily as handbook in the US, because it's a slightly different, slightly more legal document in the US, but like a wiki or a resource hub for employees effectively to be able to go and dig deep and look at this stuff. And you can keep it high level and say we offer enhanced parental leave. Or you can really provide a heap of depth on parental leave and not just like what do we give parents, but what does returning from maternity leave look like? How do we help you and support you and all that entire journey? There are some companies that do incredibly well, so it's not like to disparage everyone, but the majority don't scratch the surface.

Speaker 3: 31:27

What about with professional development is typically it's not something people think of as falling under benefits, but it's also something that you hope, as an employee, you continue to get, because then you feel that organization is invested in you, they're invested your growth. They want you to succeed. What does a good leading practice look like in terms of transparency around how much an organization is investing in your career development?

Speaker 1: 31:51

yeah, this is again. This you've just said those words as well. I think is like there's such a standard phrase on career sites of like we invest in people and we've got world-class career. If you're going to say that you've got world-class like career investment, whatever that might look like, show it like don't just dangle a carrot and then don't offer anything over and above that.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Really show what you offer people and give some clarity as to what that looked like on a a couple of levels. There's a few things on that. If you're going to list it as a benefit, again, something that we see a lot of companies do is dangle a carrot to say L&D budget, but again just a few more words to say what that budget is. It takes no effort and really helps people understand what they're going to be getting here. So there's tiny little tangible changes companies can go and make that really make a big difference to people. I think the deeper work and the work behind the scenes to really elevate that is looking in depth at how you progress and promote and keep people growing within your business. So career development frameworks is something that seems to be missing in the loss of companies, I think, probably for a reason. It's often it's hard to build. Sometimes if you're a bigger company and get everything in place and something that works and it ties heavily into performance, calibration and compensation and again you've got that big ball of christmas lights whatever we're talking about earlier that you can't unpick.

Speaker 1: 33:14

So career, when we look at the data of all the companies that take our assessment to understand, almost like a heat map of what companies do and don't share.

Speaker 1: 33:24

Career development uh, frameworks are always in the red, but for the large majority of companies they don't even share anything internally.

Speaker 1: 33:30

So there's a lot of companies out there saying we invest in people, but then you walk through the door and you don't have visibility of what's my next step look like or how can I move internally. So, again on our framework, one of our 35 areas that we zone in on and talk with companies about is sharing more information around internal mobility. So can you even share some basic data with people to say that this x percent of people moved internally last year, whether it's latently or vertically for promotion? That gives you a real indication as to like how people move within your business and how people can grow. So anyway, there's a lot of deeper work in depth you can go into there, but I think getting that internal clarity is helpful to people. And then, once you've got it, why wouldn't you share it? There's a few reasons here and there, but you should. And again, there's a couple of companies out there that do really well at just flipping their their internal documentation external.

Speaker 1: 34:26

And then, and it's amazing, who's doing this really well there's a company called cleo in the uk who I don't know. If you've come across a platform called progression fyi really cool, check out progressionfyi. They have their whole platform is about helping companies to build career development frameworks and using their platform. But progression fyi is also like a collective open source career development frameworks that companies share publicly. So clio have got theirs on there. They've shared it publicly and you can go on and look at all their engineering pathways, the salary bands attached to every single role, criteria for progressing.

Speaker 1: 35:04

They've got such a great name, particularly in the UK, for this stuff. And another one is Learnably, who again might not be well known outside of the UK because they're relatively small tech startup scale up, but Learnably are like an LMSms platform, so they major on development and growth for employees and they really drink their own champagne because of that. Going back to what we were talking about earlier with defining what transparency means to you, that a huge part of their value prop is about lnd and growth. So they've decided to major on being transparent about career development at learnably. If you're going to join us, we're going to make sure you know what you're going to get and how you're going to grow, and everything they've done has been crafted around that whole idea of lnd, because that's fed into their, their entire value prop as well where do you see this going in the next five years?

Speaker 1: 36:15

yeah, I am in a bubble. I have to admit that we operate a lot more at the startup scale up end of the spectrum. So companies anywhere from 20, 30 employees up to a couple of thousand starting to get larger. But we don't work with many 30, 40, 50,000 employee businesses and I get they're probably not going to be making the drastic changes anytime soon to how they operate and how they communicate. That's a lot harder. But certainly there's so many earlier stage businesses coming through. It precede stage.

Speaker 1: 36:45

I know a lot of founding teams who support what we're doing. They're a bit early stage to fully embrace and have a lot of this work verified because they haven't started hiring yet. But you see the mindset and the passion and the belief there and I'm not saying every founder coming through is like Gen Z. A lot of them are. A lot of them are coming into this world of work setting up their own companies now and then we will talk about the fact that Gen Z have. Everyone cares about transparency and trust, but Gen Z are more demanding. They care more deeply about it. It's a really important part of how they work, deeply about it. It's a really important part of how they work and they're building their own businesses now with this as a core value. So five years time I'd expect to see, particularly in the startup scale up world, businesses that do default more to transparency, whatever that means to them. They're at least able to say we're transparent and we've defined what that means, and if that's okay, because if it doesn't align with you, then fine, but it will align with certain people and and we're healthy and etc. Etc.

Speaker 1: 37:41

I'd like to see, hopefully, some good progression around pay transparency in particular. There's obviously a lot of movement in the US legally, so that's going to make some sort of change, I'm sure, and then there's some incoming changes across the EU as well. So what's sad is that either side of the UK right now we've got some legal waves happening, which is really enforcing some change, which is great, but nothing in the UK at the moment. So we'll see if we follow suit. But certainly on the pay front, that will change and I think as a knock-on effect to that, going back to what we talked about earlier, I'd heavily to. Pay is performance in career development. You can't suddenly become transparent about pay without giving people some context around how that ties into career development and levels and and how, then, they're going to be assessed to get to that next level, so that, as a trio is going to have to advance together? For me, um, as best as possible anyway yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 3: 38:38

I know you're as you say, you're in this the bubble, but with the, the gen z, really coming in and leading the wave of this bubble, those startups could become either clients or partners to these larger organizations. Do you think their approach to transparency may have an influence on some of these large organizations in the future?

Speaker 1: 39:01

I hope so. I hope so. As much as I don't operate so heavily in the large corporate world. As much as I don't operate so heavily in the large corporate world, I have to say some of the larger organizations out there are the ones actually doing better when it comes to things like pay transparency and visibility on career development, probably because they've got the resources there as well to do it from like a people team perspective. But particularly in the UK, the public organizations you like the NHS and you can apply to jobs and you know exactly what grade you're going to be at, what salary you're going to be at. Everyone's on the same, salary gets paid the same. There is visibility in a lot of the public organizations here which I imagine is maybe similar in the US.

Speaker 3: 39:40

It's similar. Yeah, the US government actually does transparency well.

Speaker 1: 39:44

Exactly, yeah, and there are things that you can give a little bit of a hat tip, so you just actually you know what, that there is the structure in place and similarly big consulting firms in the uk and imagine it maybe again similar in the us, like your pwc's, your ey's, etc. They've been around so long, they've got their structure so firmly set that, whilst they may not have the perfect culture for everyone, that's okay. People know what they're getting when they join. They know what they're not going to get and also the grading and the pace is like how you progress in those types of businesses is fairly clear to people and well known because they've been around for so long. So I'm I'm always wary of disparaging like large companies too much, because actually there's some things that they do really well that actually startups and scale-ups could learn from as well. Where they tend to get things wrong maybe is things like communication and day-to-day internal culture starts to get go wrong there because they become this sort of size where things start falling apart.

Speaker 2: 40:38

From that point of view, so funny with this conversation around transparency and even just like your relationship with work. I can't help but think about it like a really any relationship you have with a person, Meaning and I know we've talked about this. But when I think about dating or getting into a relationship with someone, if you're not honest or if you misrepresent yourself from the jump, you're going to have a problem. And when we think about any kind of dating scenario, if you would be like, yeah, they said that they really wanted to have X, Y and Z, but then they didn't, and we talked about how how can people start to get more transparent up above right, Especially at the org level? But I'm thinking here about where this really comes down to is individuals, how individuals are feeling as they're moving through these organizations. I'm thinking here about where this really comes down to is individuals, how individuals are feeling as they're moving through these organizations.

Speaker 2: 41:31

And I'm wondering if we can really double down on if you're a manager or if you're an employee and you're sitting in an organization that may have some opportunity. Everybody has some opportunity Individually. I have some opportunity, have some opportunity for transparency, but you really want to be this person that shows up well for your team or shows up in a way that you feel you need to as a manager. What can a manager do, agnostic of the organization, to drive transparency and drive that kind of honesty on their team?

Speaker 1: 42:06

Yeah, it's very tough. I think in some respects in smaller organizations it's more down to mindset of founder CEO. They're probably still close enough to the individual employees day to day for them to be the driving factor here. I think maybe when you get into larger organizations and most people have never ever met the ceo or know really what they look like or who they are, there is more of an opportunity possibly for managers, middle level managers, more senior managers, to try and direct and formulate some level of team level transparency. Everyone knows that as companies get larger, culture and values becomes lost on a broader level because you end up with your microcultures and across the entire business. You do have this opportunity to form your own microculture, microverse within your team. So if managers do care deeply enough about it and not to say that they're going to suddenly change the entire business and how the business operates, but there are steps that they can take to start understanding how they can build more trust with their team.

Speaker 1: 43:04

And again, this is a whole nother podcast episode, I'm sure, but managers are highly underdeveloped, under supported, under trained.

Speaker 1: 43:12

I think the latest stat that's flowing around now is like 82 percent of managers are accidental managers, like it's completely broken in terms of how management even works itself, and so most managers don't know where to start when it comes to how to manage a team and how to communicate with them, and et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 43:30

So, in terms of like steps you can take, we're building an open manager handbook with our community now building it together like a building public community exercise, which is really cool, but that's going to be filled with a heap of like resources, guidance on like how to build trust with the team, how to communicate with the team, how to run effective one on ones, but all with a lens of how to build trust with the team, how to communicate with the team, how to run effective one-on-ones, but all with a lens of how to do it in an open, transparent way.

Speaker 1: 43:54

It's tricky because some of it will go against the grain a little bit, potentially with what you're being told you are allowed to share and aren't allowed to share. But if you're not able to be transparent ie share the reality you can at least be clear with what you are and aren't allowed to share. So there's a bit of a difference between clarity and transparency. So even if you don't have the information to share with them, you can tell them what you can share and what you do and don't know, and that in itself is at least building some trust with your team.

Speaker 2: 44:21

I've been in. I think most of us have situations where you're leading a team and you're going through something really tumultuous layoffs, budget cuts, the business isn't doing well, et cetera and I've worked with people, colleagues and peers that have been like all you need to say is that you absolutely trust the direction of the company. You're behind this 100% and we're going to move on, and I have found that when I've tried that tactic earlier on in my career, it goes over like a fart in church because people, what they want to know to your very good point is I don't need you to tell me everything, but I need to trust that you're going to tell me what you can and you're going to keep me updated and we're going to go through this together. Yeah, people don't expect you to tell them everything. They don't even expect you necessarily to tell how you're feeling about it, but they need to be able to trust that you've got their best interests and that you're going to keep them updated as they go along.

Speaker 1: 45:17

Yeah, and you've got two examples of companies that do a relatively good job on this. Again, in terms of again, this probably has to be something that is ideally fed from higher up, but maybe it could be implemented in a larger organization by a middle manager. There's a company I mentioned earlier called euro. They're really intentional as a leadership team as how they will approach crisis types scenarios, whatever that might be. Layoffs interestingly, an interesting one, because you can see a layoff coming so you can plan for it. You could think about our comms plan how we're going to approach it. Weirdly, there's no argument real argument for companies doing a really bad job on this because they they always see it coming, they always have time to plan for it and they have the opportunity to communicate it if they want to. But there are things that happen that you can't control and euro was one example. They were backed by, if you remember, the silicon valley bank issue that happened a while ago.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Yeah, everyone sort of just forgot about that a little bit. So sorry if I've given anyone ptsd, but that happened and that affected juro and within minutes of that news being announced, juro's ceo was on slack. The entire business couldn't give them an answer as to what's coming, but there was at least communication there immediately to say this has happened. We could be affected. We will keep you posted and I can't remember exactly how many updates they were given, but there was continual updates very regularly throughout the entire weekend. No expectation for employees to read this, but it all happened over a weekend, didn't it? I think from memory and yeah, that's do committed to slacking the entire business all weekend about what was going on that that sort of level of intentional communication calms nerves, makes people feel involved, looked after as safe as they possibly can be and informed, and they're an incredible business. You have to work hard at that, but that's really great.

Speaker 1: 47:01

Another example, slightly different, is someone like gitlab, who a lot of people know and accept as the most transparent company in the world. If you go on their handbook, when they talk about transparency as one of their values, they're very clear about why it's a value. They're very clear about what they do share and they give you examples of the things they share. But interestingly, there's a line in there that says there are some things we don't share and when we don't share them, we publicly document what that is and why. So you can click a link and they'll tell you exactly what they don't share with people and the reasons for not sharing that information as well. And that is like perfect scenario, like defining transparency but building expectations with employees to understand and get some context for why certain things aren't being shared.

Speaker 2: 47:48

I think that education is equally important. Right, there are some things that it is in everybody's best interest not to share at a certain point in time. Right, there just is in business. But I think the ability to say this is it and to be very upfront about it again, it's so. People know what to expect, they know what they're getting into. Yeah, it's really that. Know what to expect, they know what they're getting into. Yeah, it's really that clear yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:10

It's also just acknowledging going back to the example about the Silicon Valley Bay, it's acknowledging something is happening. We know what's happening. We don't have all the facts, but we're going to communicate to you. So people aren't like trying to fill in the blank. That's what always happens, right? They fill in their own blanks. Conspiracy theories spread throughout an organization, and then it just now you're fighting that and the real information, and then no one believes the real information when you finally give it. So I love these examples.

Speaker 1: 48:38

The comfort it must build of thinking okay, my CEO is on it, like you don't communicate anything. If an employee sees it, that news, and they haven't heard from their CEO on the weekend, they might sit there and think should I tell them about this? Do you think they've seen the news yet? Or, knowing that your CEO is slacking you on the weekends about something like this, I think yeah, the trust in that leader must just be through the roof.

Speaker 2: 48:59

Yeah absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that I think is really important is being able to control what you can control. Is being able to control what you can control and, as an employee, you're either interviewing for a job. Maybe you're sitting internally at an organization and you're wondering what could I be looking at in terms of this organization? And I'm wondering what would you tell people You're best friends interviewing for a job? What would you tell them in terms of figuring out what that company really is?

Speaker 1: 49:26

Yeah, I haven't ever had to answer that. To be honest, we do a few things to try and help folks a little bit as much, as our advice usually is trained more on helping the companies rather than because we think if we can help the companies do better, that will automatically help employees and candidates. But I spend a lot of time personally looking at career sites and job adverts and I think I've gotten very good at just cutting through the rubbish. Basically, that's there, the buzzwords, the vagueness that actually a lot of people maybe read and take for granted and take as accepted. So encouraging people to not just see the words transparent on a career page but actually, if you see that, take that as a signal that you should be looking for some level of openness or something further that gives you an idea. Or, if someone's got a core value of diversity, start understanding whether they share anything about diversity or the commitments, failings, whatever that might be. So just try and think a bit deeper and go a bit deeper on that. That's like the high level stuff. There's basic things on the job adverts that people should be looking for some clarity on and most people do, frankly, is like thinking about like compensation and flexible working, like when will I be working? Where will I be working and can you think deeper around like policy on?

Speaker 1: 50:36

Someone just says hybrid three days a week. What does that actually mean? Their questions you won't have answered pre-application, but taking that into an interview to actually like really dig deeper on that and understand is it just three days a week or is it a monday, tuesday, friday, like whatever that might be? We built and shared what we call like our interview question index and which is like an open resource on our website and it's I think it's 60 or 70 questions. We just we did it for fun, to be honest, but like opportunity for people to understand that the tougher questions they could ask employers and interview to dig deeper on things like culture, like understanding, like, and what one of the questions on there is like why did the last three people leave this team?

Speaker 1: 51:14

Or what was the last mistake your ceo admitted to which I got some flack for and people said you should be a bit softer with that like and maybe like. So maybe someone could ask what was the last thing your ceo shared you that they learned, which for me became a bit fluffy. It could be like I've read a book and learned this, so I want to understand how open are CEOs and leaders about their own mistakes, their own vulnerabilities? It gives you a real indication of psychological safety and how people communicate and share information, and if an interviewer can't give you certain information, it's not necessarily that you should run for the hills, but it might give you a bit of an indication as to how communication and information is shared in that business. If they haven't even genuinely been given the information themselves. As a recruiter of 12, 13 years, that would signal some alarm bells in my head alarm bells in my head.

Speaker 3: 52:08

Yeah, I always tell people to ask the question what brought you here and what keeps you here? Because it's the what keeps you here, where the honesty starts to come out for folks, or if you see them. Oh, I don't know yeah, yeah, that pause tell is telling yeah, there's.

Speaker 1: 52:20

Sometimes I have to, like really work hard to find out why I'm still, why I'm still in this business is, but then and even the danger with that is there's almost very opinionated. So what, what's keeping someone else in the business might not be the thing that keeps you there as well, but understanding it's hard, because so many of these things could be linked to opinion. But again, understanding, like, who is the last person that failed to thrive here and why? Like what are the factors that leads to failure in this company, rather than always saying, like, why am I going to love it here? What do do you do for fun? Like always trying to find all the fun stuff. Understand who doesn't thrive and help you understand whether that might, you know, connect the dots for you as well.

Speaker 2: 52:59

I think it's really important to dive way deeper than most people do in their interviews and to not be afraid to ask those questions. I've had many conversations with people that they really want to know X, y and Z, but they're afraid to ask or they feel like if they ask then they're going to get penalized somehow in the interview process. And I feel like these are questions that you should be asking to really get a sense of what is the organization like, but also if you're getting any kind of pushback about those questions or even asking those questions, that's also information as well.

Speaker 3: 53:33

That's when a rejection is protection. Yes, ultimately.

Speaker 1: 53:39

The hard thing right now, at this moment in time, is it's such a hard thing to advise on because they're ultimately braver questions for people to ask, slightly scarier ones, and the mindset that so many people are in right now is I've just got to find a job.

Speaker 1: 53:53

So, like at the moment, people are just trying to find, prioritize finding jobs, even if they're not perfect, and it was a similar back in 2020 with, with covid, people were joining companies as a stepping stone, knowing I just need security for now and when the market improves then I'll move. So right now, this stuff isn't always a priority for people, but I've known a good few people in the last number of months who have jumped to jobs just for a job's sake and they've left them in weeks. There's no point in joining a business and going through onboarding and ramp up and hope if your gut is telling you that this is not the right place, because nine times out of ten it won't happen and you're better off still investing your energy and your time into trying to find the right place. But it is hard.

Speaker 2: 54:35

It's a really tricky time to be doing that and I hate to put it on an employee to say you've got to go through this journey, but I think it's really great, though, that people have these tools and these questions to ask to see what situation are they getting into, what's?

Speaker 1: 54:47

really sad is it's often the TA teams and the recruiters who get the flack for this. They're useless at giving me the information I need. They're really vague and the poor recruiter that's nine times out of 10, they just haven't been given the information. I've had this myself, like not being told what funding round we just done. How am I going to do my job properly if the leadership team won't give me the basic information I need to interview? So it's not usually the TA team's fault. Honestly. They don't sit there openly trying to hide things. It's just we're working with what we've got. But again, it's a huge indication really of like how does communication happen in this business?

Speaker 2: 55:20

A thousand percent, yeah, and quite honestly, most TA teams are armed with the sexy ass information and all the information they can have so they can get those folks through the door. So if they don't have it, again I think that's a really great call out that it might not be as clear in the organization. The other thing is, if the hiring manager we talk about this sometimes there's a difference between talent acquisition, like your recruiter, and then the person that's actually going to be quote, unquote, your boss, and if either of those people don't have that information, or I think it'd be very interesting if they give you different information as well, again, I think it's just, it's a big archaeological dig.

Speaker 3: 55:56

Put on your curiosity and critical thinking hat during the interview process the rapid round, here we go adam, no pressure, by the way, try to make this as fun as possible and not terrifying. So terrible, at least yeah, all right, I going to dive right in. Some of these could be yes or no, or true or false, and some might have broader explanation, and that's totally okay. I wanted to ask of the open org companies that you are working with, are there similar characteristics that you see in their leadership teams?

Speaker 1: 56:44

yes, I can divulge a little bit more if you want yeah of course. Relatively progressive, a younger generation less precious about titles and flatter hierarchies and structures in their business.

Speaker 3: 56:58

Okay, what is the next lever being added to the list above? We talked about comp benefits, career development, culture. What else might get added?

Speaker 1: 57:10

Flexibility is another thing that I think is just such a big topic at the moment the lack of clarity on are we working from home? Is it return to office? How does that look? Is it different things to different employees? There's a lot of problems around that at the moment. So, like clarity on that should be really simple, but it's terrible at the moment, so that should be a big one.

Speaker 3: 57:34

Okay, okay. We see a lot of large organizations today talking about social impact, environmental impact. Do you think, given the age of climate change, that companies should be transparent about their environmental impact, even if it's not flattering?

Speaker 1: 57:45

Yeah, I do so. The gen z, gen z, sorry big topic for them around, like esg and environment and climate. So it's a big thing that a lot of them are looking for, apparently, from employers when they join companies. So it will signal to me that the longer that it goes on and the worst things get out there, the more important this is for companies to talk about. The downsides is the pressure of greenwashing, etc. And everyone's talking about just doing something or trying to make it look as good as possible, and that's happened with diversity over the last few years. Definitely is like huge calls to do more on diversity, but it's become very performative. So yes, definitely, but but be careful okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 58:25

Do you think social media is going to make companies be more transparent or just more cautious?

Speaker 1: 58:31

hopefully both, hopefully both. So a trait I see from the really transparent companies that I follow and watch is very vocal ceos. On linkedin, for example, they post regularly. They post about whatever they want and they're not afraid to to either be vulnerable and share failings but also like really celebrate stuff. And it's interesting the the slightly larger or secretive companies. You never hear from a ceo and the fact that they don't post about anything starts making you think are they waiting for someone to comment on a post and call them out? And this happened with bupa very recently. The ce CEO posted about an award they won for women in their leadership team and there was a comment made that went viral and it all blew up. So more cautious if you're not able to be fully transparent, but hopefully that transparency will remove the need to be cautious.

Speaker 3: 59:22

Okay, true or false? Every company should have a public fact sheet about how they operate, true, okay? And is there such a thing as too much transparency?

Speaker 1: 59:37

There could be. Arguably no, but in certain instances there could be. And again it's a bit like the greenwashing example just now. Don't make it become like a performative exercise just for pr. Make it like embeddable. Don't overreach.

Speaker 3: 59:51

As soon as you can't model certain behaviors, it will start to fall apart what's one organization either one that you're working with or one publicly that you've seen do this really well, like you think they're a pillar example of good transparency.

Speaker 1: 1:00:14

A company called PostHog. Posthog is a small-ish tech business in the UK. I won't drone on because I'll talk about it for hours, but check out PostHog. They've got a public handbook. They share their roadmap. Their CEO is posting on LinkedIn all the time. That's so open, so transparent. They're amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:00:26

Adam. I love the work you all are doing. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Mindful Leadership

Your Work Friends Podcast: Mindful Leadership with Aurora Myers and Carissa Ricci

Emails flying. Deadlines looming. Your Slack is a war zone. But what if you could lead through it without burning out? Aurora Myers and Carissa Ricci are here to help! We’re talking mindful leadership—the real kind. No fluffy mantras or toxic positivity—just practical ways to stay grounded, focused, and human when everything around you feels like a mess.

This compelling episode dives into the essence of mindful leadership in the workplace. Our guests share their journey and expertise on integrating mindfulness and mental health practices into corporate culture, emphasizing the significance of showing up as your full self at work. By embracing self-awareness, leaders can harness their best selves, fostering healthier and more effective team dynamics.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

And what I wish somebody would have told me is just sit your butt down and just feel and just practice, because you are in your body and you know it's best for you.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Boom. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 4: 0:11

I'm going to put like five exclamation points after that.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Friends. Mel and I talk to a lot of people every week and really uncover what's happening with them at work. On the same token, what was really interesting is when we look at our analytics around, what people search for when they're searching our pod or when they find our pod, it's all around the same type of themes, right, mel? It's like how do I get through this work? Schmutz.

Speaker 3: 0:53

Yeah, it's. My day is hard. I'm dealing with politics, I'm dealing with changes, I'm dealing with tough team situations, project situations. How do I get through it?

Speaker 2: 1:05

Yeah, it's how do I get through it? How do I get through today, now, this minute, this stress? And so Mel and I called up Chris Arici and Aurora Myers. They are experts in what's called mindful leadership, and if you don't know what mindful leadership is, it's really about understanding ourselves and our own nervous systems and our physiological reactions to stress, because when you have stress, whether or not you recognize it, you're having a reaction physically, mentally, emotionally. We have them, and what mindful leadership is trying to do is allow you to understand your own operating model so you can use that data to inform how you want to show up and then show up in a really beautiful way, because when you understand how you show up and react to stress, you're going to be a better version of yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:54

I couldn't agree more, and I feel like in this episode, carissa and Aurora gave so many tangible and tactical tips that you can take with you every single day Stuff you can implement in the next five minutes.

Speaker 2: 2:09

Listen, chris and Aura do this as their life's work. They have a company called Ignite where they're uncovering and helping people ignite their own mindful leadership style, but with us they really shared. What do I do in the minutes in the small movements today? What do I do as an employee? What do I do in the minutes in the small movements today? What do I do as an employee? What do I do as a leader? And then, how do I really work to establish a better understanding of my own operating model? Well, with that here, it is our conversation with Carissa and Aurora about mindful leadership. Friends, we're so stoked to have you first of all, just like being around both of you, so much a good energy and a good juju. But what I'm going to talk about your backgrounds? Um, obviously both of you have deep mindful leadership practices and you also have really interesting backgrounds in terms of how you got here. So I'm wondering if you could start by telling us what's your journey to where you are today.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I started getting into the mindfulness and yoga space when I was 17 years old and it's been incredibly helpful for my mental health, and I saw a need to infuse all of this good stuff movement in your body, working with all of the messy thoughts in your brain in corporate culture, in a place where I feel like all of that stuff is not either prevalent or taken seriously, and so I wanted to take what I had learned and bring it to a place where people could use it the most to de-stress and feel better and really invest in themselves over time, and that's what inspired me to get into all of this Right environment to do it too. What about you?

Speaker 2: 3:54

Carissa.

Speaker 4: 3:55

Yeah, for me, I bounced around from the academic environments corporate environments. I would say the bulk of my experience has been in corporate and I have seen examples of really amazing and incredible leadership and not so stellar leadership and everything in between and those environments where you feel like you're allowed to bring your humanity to work versus those where you feel like you have to check part of yourself at the door. And I think seeing all of those different examples of what it looks like on a team when you're engaging with different types of leaders really intrigued me. And what does that look like from a health standpoint and mental health awareness is something that has been really important to me and mental health in the workplace and what does it look like to be able to show up to work and feel like you can bring your full self? So for me, getting to this place has been wanting to bring some of those healthier practices to teams across the corporate environment where we can make the workplace feel better for people.

Speaker 3: 4:54

I would love to hear from you both how do you define mindful leadership?

Speaker 1: 4:58

It's such a nuanced but fascinating topic.

Speaker 1: 5:02

The way that I like to think about it is we all have these operating instructions for ourselves that help us figure out what triggers our stress response cycle and how we can show up to be the best version of ourselves in as many situations as possible, both personally and professionally. And the goal of mindful leadership is to figure out what are our personal operating instructions. How does that show up in these professional settings? When we're in community, when we're in conversation and relationship with others, how can we use that data to inform the way we show up? And then, on the flip side, how can we work with other people who have different operating instructions and meet them with empathy and curiosity and kindness, when we're all coming at a situation from different perspectives and whatnot? So it's really like understanding ourselves and our own nervous systems and our physiological reactions to stress. So that way, when we're in those conversations that feel messy or we don't quite know the answers to them, we can feel a little bit more grounded and less pulled or pushed from this place of internal stress.

Speaker 3: 6:06

Why do you think this is so critical in the workplace?

Speaker 4: 6:09

Aurora and I often talk about, like it starts with us as the leader and if I can't hold space for my stuff, how can I hold space for that of other people?

Speaker 4: 6:18

So, as Aurora was talking about those operating instructions and the physiology of it, moving from a place where it's less reactive and more intentional is really, really important, because we are in a high stress environment Most of the time. We are being pulled in a million different directions and how can I tap into what's happening within myself? So there's, there has to be that willingness there to first open yourself up to okay, I'm going to explore this and then, secondly, raising that awareness of oh, this is the physiological response that happens when I'm triggered and this is how I can move forward with that. One of the reasons why it's so important is that, in those moments where you would traditionally be more reactive, it gives you an opportunity to pause and rethink the way that you approach things and can have a really incredible impact on your teams If they start to see you showing up in a different way and you coming from a more grounded place, a more centered place, a place of authenticity. You're role modeling that for your team.

Speaker 3: 7:17

Yeah, I think that's really important and we've seen the shift. I've personally seen a shift over the last 20 years on leaders being more introspective before showing up for their teams and spending a little more time there. Why do you think this is so important right now? Why is this so important for the future of work?

Speaker 1: 7:36

In my experience of working with teams is that so often there's this interest in mindfulness and mindful leadership, but sometimes it can happen in these vacuums within certain groups of leaders and then they don't have the tools and resources to take that and carry that forward to their teams. So that's one of the things that we've also recognized that we would like to change about. The future of work is not just sitting down at the beginning of a team meeting for five minutes and breathing and feeling really good and then going eight hours straight and just like not being able to maintain any information because you're just so tired and exhausted, but really infusing it as much as possible into the spaces where people need it most and giving the leaders the tools that they need to help their team do the same their team do the same.

Speaker 3: 8:26

That makes sense. It's interesting because when you first start to hear something like mindful leadership in certain workplaces that some people feel, oh, this is too woo-woo, is this too touchy-feely, what does that exactly mean? But it's clear from what you're saying this is really for everyone, right? So this?

Speaker 4: 8:40

is for everybody, whether or not you actually lead in the formal sense that, oh, I have direct reports in the system, so I'm a leader. That's not what we're saying here. We're saying that you are showing up as a leader. You're showing up as a leader in your communities, with your friends, with the people in your life. There are all of these different facets in which you show up as a leader and, yes, one of the lenses is if you lead people at work. But really, this mindful leadership practice and idea can be infused throughout your life, no matter what your work life looks like.

Speaker 3: 9:09

Yeah, I think it's such an important call out to say leadership does not equal a title. It shows up in so many different ways, so I just love the work you're doing.

Speaker 2: 9:18

And Mel, to your good point too. I know a lot of folks might feel like, oh, is mindful leadership, woo-woo. But quite honestly, there's a lot of benefit for someone really understanding their operating model, right, their operating system, to understand how they're going to react, how they're going to react in stressful situations, how they're going to react when they're excited, how they're going to react in front of their teams. Like to really be able to check themselves, because I think we've all worked for someone where you're like man, you need some therapy, like we've all right, probably not, probably not.

Speaker 4: 9:50

Oh, 100% Right.

Speaker 2: 9:52

Or you're like in a conference room with someone where they're just they're going in fuego or they're really reacting so poorly and the impact for the team, the impact for the work, is slowing it down, it's making people feel really disengaged, and that all costs time, that all costs money, and so I think this idea of really starting to understand you, your operating system, and then how you can take that and show up as your best self through mindful leadership, is rad. When we talked earlier, one of the things you were talking about is this doesn't have to be these big leaps of things, right. This is something that can start small, small things. And I'm curious how can someone really start small in mindful leadership, start small in understanding their operating system? Let's start with employees. How can employees start to pull into a practice of mindful leadership?

Speaker 1: 10:43

When we do talk about mindfulness, it can feel disconnected from our real life experiences and the stressors that are going on.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Sometimes we assume, in order to feel good, I need to go off to a 10 day meditation retreat, or I need to quit my job or I need to change my life in some way. But the purpose of these practices is truly to learn how to do it in the middle of the messiness, and so I think one of the best things that someone can do in the middle of a work context is figure out what works best for them to regulate their nervous system. And that can look like anything. For some people it could look like breathing. For others it could look like finding some movement. For somebody like myself who doesn't like sitting still, sometimes I need like a hardcore workout before I feel relaxed and then I can do breath work. It's truly figuring out what helps you feel more calm so you can recognize what that operating model is telling you, so you can get out of fight or flight and show up to that situation from a place that's more grounded. That's probably my number one tip Regulate your nervous system.

Speaker 2: 11:43

It's so funny Whenever I get really up in my anxiety I feel it in my gums, like I can feel it in my neck and in my gums, and I have learned to do a box breathing, just to like one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, and that calms me down because it is it's. I need something now that's not a Xanax, because we can't take those during the workday, so like yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:04

And that is so huge is like noticing where it is showing up in your body. A lot of times people are like I'm stressed, but they can't quite tell where they feel that. Do you have a stomach ache? Are your shoulders lifting up? And that's a lot of that mind body connection that we teach in yoga and mindful movement. That is really helpful.

Speaker 4: 12:22

Yeah, I would piggyback onto that and say that I have noticed that when I do notice, even just the noticing in and of itself, like oh, my chest is tight or oh, my throat feels it just the noticing, it can actually help relieve some of that tension. Which is the irony of it is that even in the noticing it can help release some of those places of tension. The other thing that I would add, as far as a small thing, once you get that physiological response and I'm going to quote Ted Lasso, quoting Walt Whitman here, but the be curious and not judgmental, yeah, Be aware I'm a Ted fan.

Speaker 4: 12:55

It might come up again later, I don't know, but there's this line that he quotes by Walt Whitman be curious, not judgmental. And I feel like so often we do that outward right, we share that curiosity with other people, but do we do that with ourselves? So I feel like that. For my own personal mindfulness journey has been one of the biggest hurdles to jump over is when I feel or notice that tension in my body, I go right to judgment Like, oh, Chrissy, you're anxious again, why is your body doing this? And so the other small habits that I've gotten into the practice of is recognizing when that happens and going oh, you're in judgment, You're judging yourself for being X, Y, Z.

Speaker 4: 13:34

How do you move into curiosity and go oh, what is your body trying to tell you right now, as opposed to body, why are you doing this to me right now? That's another little, little mindset shift and tweak that you can make when you find yourself in those moments is being kind and compassionate to yourself, which is really difficult. I don't know anyone else, but like that self-flagellation of like, oh my gosh, I'm having another moment where my body's freaking out and I'm feeling anxious and I'm and shifting from that to well, why is that happening. Let me dig under the surface and ask some compassionate questions about why that might be happening with me right now.

Speaker 2: 14:07

Yeah, I think so much of the time there's this archetype of leadership that is still very, very prevalent that we all have to show up and be Shackleton and have no emotions about things. Right, You're cool, calm and collected all the time. Personally, when I felt like holy shit, I'm flipping out right now, Like I am full on flipping out, I think all of us have had moments where we're angry, we're anxious, we're frightened at work or there's something happening For me. I feel like I should be able to handle this. Why is my body reacting this way? I should be able to just brush it off. So, on top of feeling it, I feel shame, honestly, because I'm not Shackleton, but what I hear you saying, Chris, is don't shame, just notice it. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4: 14:49

And understanding that initial judgment is normal. It happens. It's that initial knee-jerk reaction to when that, and again going back to the small wins, is reducing the amount of time between when you notice you're judging yourself and then shifting into curiosity instead. So really celebrate those wins, even if it feels like, well, I went right to judgment again and then, guess what, you're still in judgment. So it's like trying to get more quickly from the oh, I'm judging myself to let me get curious about this and implement the things that they do know, like box breathing or other things to regulate what's happening.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Yeah, what about managers? Again, I'm looking for those small wins. I'm leading a team, I am trying to shorten that time between judgment and curiosity and really notice when I'm having those triggers for myself and at the same time I'm leading a team. And are there different moves that I can make or pull into as a manager?

Speaker 4: 15:43

One of the most powerful things you can do is really just be transparent with your team and say, hey, this is something I'm working on.

Speaker 4: 15:50

And again this goes back to there has to be a willingness to be vulnerable and there has to be a willingness to to show up to your team and say this is what I'm working on and ask them for feedback on how things are feeling within their team, really source that information from them Like, how is this feeling? Know that I'm working on these things and then open up the conversation, because even just talking about some of this stuff is going to be new for teams and I think it not only will help your team feel like they're allowed to talk about it, but they'll feel empowered when they see you role modeling. That to say, hey, like I don't have this figured out, this is something I'm working on. Maybe this is something we can work on together as a team. So opening that door can help people feel like they're a part of the process. It can help build that psychological safety to be able to have some of those conversations on how you want to move forward as a mindful team with a mindful leader.

Speaker 1: 16:46

I could not have said that better myself. Literally perfect thing I could add on to that is the accountability piece when you're receiving feedback, being open to that and creating the space, like you said, for your team to feel safe in providing you feedback. One of the things that I do because I know personally I'm always afraid of feedback is I'll try to beat my insecurity to the punch and ask for it first. So if you can create that environment and say this is something that I'm working on in my personal mindfulness practice, it's something that I want to bring to the team, but I'm not quite there yet. Can you let me know if I'm falling short? Can you let me know if I can do better? And just creating that connection, like Carissa said, I think is huge and different and not normal, as I'm thinking about the interactions that you have with your team.

Speaker 4: 17:31

One of the other ways that managers can show up in that space is allowing for silence. And going back to what we were talking about with holding space for other people. Specifically, in this instance, if you're having a one-on-one conversation with a team member and you are in a conversation where maybe your team member brings up something that is uncomfortable or does make you feel or does trigger you, that's an opportunity for you as a leader, as a manager, to tap into some of those practices that you have around. How am I going to show up and self-manage what's happening with me while also being able to hold space for another human who is in this moment? Because, as humans, we're designed to run from discomfort, we don't like sitting in the muck of things, and so how do we, as leaders and managers, sit in that space with another human and do that? Because that is an incredible gift to be able to give someone else. How do we lean into those moments where it's like, ooh, this is sticky, this is uncomfortable, this isn't normal for me, and I think one of the most powerful things I've ever had anyone say to me was when I was going through a really difficult time and I now use this with other people that I care about in my life where they said, I can't fix it for you, I can't take away what you're going through, but I can sit with you in it, and I remember feeling so relieved.

Speaker 4: 18:41

I've had other people who said, oh, don't cry, we'll figure it out, or they're trying to put the bandaid on it for me and I just needed to be in that moment, and so there is such relief when you're on the receiving end of that. I will just sit with you in it. And that ability to be able to hold that space and that discomfort with someone else is so powerful and can create such a deep and meaningful connection. So I would say, as a manager, that's one of the things that is most important to work on. It's difficult to sit in silence sometimes. I'm a highly empathic person. I want to help, I want to fix, so that's a lot of self-management that happens in those moments.

Speaker 2: 19:17

It seems like it's a good opportunity for that curiosity too. Mel and I joke about this. We don't know if it's like a trauma response or not, but we will be the first one with the really ill-timed joke when things get uncomfortable. You know it's not appropriate. You know, yeah, things make us uncomfortable, but it's interesting. There have been many times when I've been leading teams where you're having a conversation. It's uncomfortable. It might be uncomfortable because they're sharing feedback about me that makes me feel uncomfortable, like I failed them or something it might be that they're sharing something really deeply personal and it's outside the bounds of work.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Maybe it's inside the bounds of work but it's getting mucky to your point. And when we have these initial reactions which might feel like failure or feel like discomfort, to pull into that curiosity and be like, okay, you're feeling this, francesca, don't tell the joke or francesca, don't make it right, be here and be okay with the silence of things, because I love that idea of giving someone the gift of your time, your ears and your silence it reminded me of way, way, way back when I first graduated from college and I was going into teaching and so I got my teaching credentials and in one of the classes the professor said after you ask a question, wait six seconds before you say anything else.

Speaker 4: 20:35

And I thought, oh, six seconds, it's not a big deal. And then they said we're going to set the timer for six seconds. We're all going to sit here in silence. So you know what that feels like, and they did that and you could literally feel it was like people's skin is like skin crawlingly, like just, it was so uncomfortable. We got to seconds four, five and six and it was so interesting to me how, in my mind, I was like, oh, six seconds isn't that big of a deal. But especially when you're in a conversation that feels emotionally charged or it has some depth to it, that silence can feel really heavy. So, being able to embrace it instead of run from it and sit in it, I've been amazed at what comes out in the silence.

Speaker 3: 21:14

We do a 10 second rule in facilitation with the same thing and it's a good break Once you get used to it.

Speaker 4: 21:20

Those first few times are a little they're awkward, a little intense they are yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:26

And they are. I will always be like okay, I'm giving the obligatory 10 seconds now because that's the way I manage.

Speaker 4: 21:34

By the way, I love this. I love that you shared that you have this urge to tell inappropriate jokes. It's bad, it's so hard it's.

Speaker 2: 21:41

So I'm like oh God and it's my, it's so hard it's so I'm like oh god, and it's. My husband does this too and I realize it's a way to ease the tension, it's a way to bring levity and sometimes I'm wondering is that for me? I'm trying to do it for the group, but I'm trying to do it for me too, because I get uncomfortable with the silence.

Speaker 4: 22:02

A hundred percent. Yeah, there's this moment of am I doing it to ease my discomfort or am I doing it to ease theirs?

Speaker 1: 22:25

you know point in time where we decide am I going to tell the joke or am I going to try to sit with this discomfort? One of the phrases that I find really helpful in my personal practice comes from Brene Brown, but it's this phrase of the story I'm telling myself is and if we can get curious and lean into like wait, what is going on in my mind? Am I feeling incompetent? Am I feeling awkward or insecure? What's going on internally and how is that going to impact what I say or do is a huge part of the practice, and probably one of the hardest parts is when you're doing it in real time, versus when you're sitting and feeling great and there's no messy conversation in front of you. You're just relaxing.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Yeah, yeah. Is it valuable to do like a post-mortem on that? Let's say, I completely biffed the conversation and I was just Jerry Seinfeld-ing it through the whole thing. Is there value in being like, wow, I really just did that and why did I do that? Or do you feel like the real value is stopping yourself in the muck?

Speaker 1: 23:17

So Carissa mentioned, the more we practice and the more we do this, the quicker we get at recognizing what's going on in the moment. So I like to think of it as this bell curve, where at the very beginning you have the stimulus so say it's silent and that causes anxiety, and then you have a very short amount of time where you get to decide what your response is, and then maybe your reaction is to tell the joke, and then we watch as whatever happens happens. The more we practice mindfulness, the quicker we are going to understand in the moment when the thing is happening. Oh, it's happening. Like how do I want to choose my response this time? But most often what happens is that we realize it afterwards. Like you said, the postmortem check-in is great because then we can think oh okay, I want to do something different next time. Both are good. It's just harder to do in the moment if we're not practicing in the container of quiet or doing that post work of understanding how we showed up in the situation.

Speaker 2: 24:31

We talked about the small stuff. What if people want to really establish a practice of mindful leadership where they're living with this intention, at work and at home, their laser focused on knowing how their operating system works and how they can show up in the most constructive way? How do people get into establishing a deeper, mindful leadership practice.

Speaker 4: 24:51

This kind of harkens back to what we were talking about earlier noticing where the tension is in my body For me and establishing a longer term practice. That's been the most effective way, that the most effective entry point for me is noticing what's happening physiologically with me, because it's easier for me than going straight to like what am I feeling right now? So I noticed, oh, my body's feeling weird. Okay, what is that telling me? There's something happening here, and so then I can get into more of the. Oh. Now I'm going to pull on those techniques that I like box breathing or four, seven, eight breathing, or I'm going to lay on my stomach because that helps, like pressure on your stomach helps downregulate your nervous system.

Speaker 4: 25:27

There are things that I've learned from Aurora Thank you, aurora over the years that have helped me. I'm like, okay, this might look funny, but I'm going to lay on my stomach in my office for five minutes. There are things that I've implemented that have helped me when I noticed that getting into curiosity, using those things that I know work for me and then becoming more consistent with them as I can. Everyone's different, everyone's going to have a different entry point, a different way of doing it that's going to work for them. Really, it's about finding what works for you. Again, back to curiosity. What does work for you as you look at your life and your past, as you try to establish new habits or new ways of being? What's most effective? What works for one person isn't always going to work for the other, but for me that's been the most effective way.

Speaker 1: 26:14

I see two definitions of mindfulness One, which is the classic definition from Jon Kabat-Zinn, where he says it's paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, non-judgmentally Lots of hard things to do all at once combined.

Speaker 1: 26:27

And then the other one that I'm familiar with is to do anything artfully and with intention, is to be mindful, and so, like Carissa said, everyone's entry point can be different and I think part of the mindset piece around that is. A lot of times we look at mindfulness or meditation and think well, I can't sit still or like my back hurts or my legs hurt when I cross my legs, so I'm not a good meditator. I don't like to do yoga because I'm not flexible. Maybe you like going on a walk or eating lunch without looking at your phone, or playing with your kid. It could be so many different ways that you could create that sense of grounding and calm in your body. It doesn't have to look like anything specific or make sense to anybody else, and staying committed to that and exploring what feels good and playing around with different practices and not worrying about whether or not you're doing anything right or wrong is probably the best thing you can do in the long run to commit to something long-term.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Yeah, I love this concept of figuring out what's really going to enable you to strengthen your ability to connect with other people. For those folks that have never really entered into yoga or don't even know what we're talking about when we're talking about box breathing, what do you all typically recommend people start with or try?

Speaker 1: 27:39

Any type of movement in your body that feels good, anything that helps you feel more open and relaxed and stretched out or alive or energized, whatever you're going for. That's one bucket. And then what Carissa talked about is the opposite of that is stillness. Movement is one thing, stillness another. That could be sitting, that could be lying down, it could be moving very slowly on a walk, it could be listening to a guided meditation, lots of different things, but those are the two ways in which I would attack complicated spheres.

Speaker 4: 28:12

I love, aurora, what you said about it doesn't have to look a certain way, Because when I very first started years and years ago, I did feel like I had to be sitting on a pillow like that and I had to meditate like 60 minutes a day.

Speaker 4: 28:21

It was just so unattainable. But then I started to realize that any moment where I'm fully present is a mindful moment. It could be I'm eating lunch and instead of scrolling through my phone or being distracted by all sorts of thoughts, like I'm paying attention to how the food tastes, what the texture of the food is, I'm actually enjoying and being present. When I'm in a conversation with someone, I'm fully there, phone is away, I'm not focused on anything other than that person. When I started to do that, I realized how much of my life I wasn't fully present. So mindfulness can happen in a split second and just enjoying the smells, sights, sounds. The conversation of the person that's in front of you doesn't have to be like Aurora says, doesn't have to be sitting on a pillow in a certain position with your mind completely blank.

Speaker 2: 29:04

That's, that's. Yeah, that's kind of impossible. I'm like I've never, ever, never.

Speaker 1: 29:11

If you know how to do that, let me know, but I don't know how to do that.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Exactly. It's funny, especially during COVID Chrissy. You and I met during the pandemic and I'll tell you that's where I really started pay attention to what's my body feeling and how am I reacting to it, and what I've realized over the last few years, to the very good point, around movement and stillness and looking at those two dichotomies. When I have anxiety or when I'm angry, I have to go for a walk, I have to walk my dog and I'm walking down the street and that helps me. But when I'm incredibly nervous or I even feel fear, I have to be still.

Speaker 2: 29:51

That's been a lot of years trying to suss out like what do you need? Based on what your body is telling you, I know when I need stillness. I know when I need walking. It is not good for me, when I'm fearful for me, to do activity that will actually exacerbate it for me. So it's been interesting figuring that out. I don't think I ever put the two and two together until you said stillness and movement, but I'm realizing I do that For folks that want to read up more about this, go into this a little bit more deeply what resources have you felt are really good?

Speaker 1: 30:19

So here's the thing because I've been teaching for so many years and I see so many students and I myself have gone through the experience of starting off thinking I needed to do it a certain way in order to get it right and be perfect.

Speaker 1: 30:32

The one thing I ask people to do is just trust their own bodies and practice in their own way and see what that feels like Like.

Speaker 1: 30:41

You can ask me questions about alignment and all this other stuff, but I really try to emphasize that the all of that is secondary to your own experience, and the priority of the practice is awareness of sensation, awareness of what's going on in the body and the mind and how the mind reacts to what's going on in the body. Learning to sit in stillness and discomfort and the way the shape looks is not that important, and so I don't necessarily point people to like a book or a video, because I used to ask those questions who do I read? What classes do I take? And what I wish somebody would have told me is just sit your butt down and just feel and just practice, because you are in your body and you know it's best for you, and I want people to feel empowered to teach themselves as much as possible, instead of feeling like I need somebody else to tell me how to do it Right.

Speaker 2: 31:38

Boom. Yeah, I love that, I love that.

Speaker 4: 31:41

Yeah, I'm going to put like five exclamation points after that. Whatever you're feeling, five exclamation points after that.

Speaker 2: 31:47

Whatever you're feeling, there's no value on that. You're just feeling it right. But being honest with your honest, I guess, or being able to recognize that and understand how you need to personalize for yourself, is huge.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Yeah, it's all trial and error. There isn't a book or a. If there was one, I would have figured it out by now. But I think it just takes time and just your own practice and experience. That means the most.

Speaker 1: 32:13

I use this phrase of balance between effort and ease and only you can decide and figure out where that is.

Speaker 1: 32:20

So, for instance, if you're pushing yourself into a pose or a movement that feels tight, pushing yourself into a pose or a movement that feels tight or you feel uncomfortable in it, is that discomfort or is that pain? I don't know, because I don't have the experience of sensation in your body. So you get to figure that out and then you get to choose. Am I going to move into it? Is that going to serve me and create space in my body more today by shifting into this discomfort? Or is it actually more productive to back off, which feels like I'm not doing as much and it feels less productive? And then all these stories come up. I should be doing X, y, z, and that's really the whole point of the mindful movement practice is to teach us how our minds are reacting to a specific stimulus, so that way, when we step off of our mats. We notice that pattern more often in the middle of a conversation that's heated of our mats.

Speaker 2: 33:07

We notice that pattern more often in the middle of a conversation that's heated. You know what I'm doing in my head while you're. I'm like stillness, movement, the ease, discomfort I'm like. Is there like a X Y axis here I'm trying to plot?

Speaker 4: 33:16

I'm like I'm like oh, my God, francesca stop.

Speaker 2: 33:25

You know I'm a visual learner too, friend, but I'm like this is fascinating.

Speaker 3: 33:28

I love all of this advice and the personalization behind it, because it feels so much more attainable. That leads me to the typical challenges you both see when you're trying to share this with others, or what you've heard comes up for others, and I know we spoke earlier about one of those challenges for individuals, for example, is the ability to have self-compassion instead of beating themselves up. What other typical challenges do you see people having when trying to practice mindful leadership and how do they overcome it?

Speaker 4: 33:58

One of the questions that I think is often asked is this going to be worth it? Especially when we are in a results driven like my values tied to my productivity that type of culture. It can be difficult for people to understand that when you slow down and you take the time to dig into this stuff, this actually can accelerate a lot of other things that you're trying to accelerate much more easily than the way that you're trying to push this rock up a hill.

Speaker 1: 34:25

It's such a long game and the results are both personal and they're also communal, and some of them are more immediate, like downregulation of the nervous system, and some of them are much more long-term. Like we got through this project without wanting to. Like we got along while we were doing this. Like this project, that was really difficult. The other aspect that we were talking about the awkwardness of not knowing how to bring this forward to teams. Let's say, somebody has been using the Headspace app for a year and they're really into mindfulness and meditation and they want to bring it to their team, but they're not quite sure.

Speaker 1: 34:57

Well, I'm not a teacher. Like I barely know this stuff. I still struggle with it. How are people going to think of me or perceive me if I try to introduce this? Or are they going to think it's weird? There are all these questions and there aren't a lot of resources around supporting leaders and letting them know that the journey of mindful leadership doesn't really have a playbook. There is no guidebook right now, and that's what Carissa and I are trying to figure out how to share with people. You get to create your own path for yourself and your team. It doesn't have to look like anything that you've ever seen before. It can be something totally different than any work environment you've ever had and giving people that permission to come up with it for themselves. So I think there's that fear and insecurity of I love this, but what do I do?

Speaker 3: 35:39

with it. I love that. The concept though similar to individual personalization. When you're doing this with your team, you're creating that playbook together and what works for the team. It's all about personalization throughout Carissa. You had mentioned that statement where's the ROI, when am I going to see results? Et cetera. How do you answer that when that question comes up within organizations?

Speaker 4: 36:01

There is data to back up that a human-centric work design actually does lower the amount of employee fatigue, it increases their likelihood to stay and it increases productivity. There is science behind this. There is data behind this. I think it's that mindset shift of saying woo, woo, or is this actually going to move the needle for my team and so for teams that get hung up on that part, coming in with the science behind and the data behind why this is important can be really helpful in helping them shift course and at least give it a try. What's the harm in trying it for a little bit and then see what happens? Our philosophy give it a go, see what happens, what's the worst that could happen?

Speaker 1: 36:41

And it doesn't have to be an entire overhaul of the complete system. It could be those little changes and just testing things out.

Speaker 3: 36:47

Test and learn.

Speaker 2: 36:48

I'm a fan, you know what's interesting is, when we do a lot of executive development in organizations, their training and development budget. A large chunk of it, let me just say this, is on executive development. It's getting very personalized development opportunities to, I'd say, the top 100 people in your organization. And one of the biggest things that we work on are the things that set people back. It's the things that they haven't checked in their operating system, that they need to in order to be more empathic, more effective, a better team leader, and if people can get into this practice earlier, they're not going to have such a hurdle if they get up into those upper echelons, because this is the stuff that can really hold people back a lot of times if they haven't checked themselves and their reactions to things.

Speaker 4: 37:36

We've all seen the laundry list of leadership skills and competencies and they are important, right? You need to be able to communicate vision and purpose, you need to be able to think strategically and all of that vision and purpose, you need to be able to think strategically, and all of that. And if you don't have those deeply human skills, that ability to lead from a mindful place, then you're limiting yourself so significantly.

Speaker 2: 37:54

I think about the way a lot of organizations run. They have things like pulse surveys or engagement scores, right, we have things like manager development, training and capabilities. These practices are things that can be surveyed for, assessed. They could be written into trainings where we're teaching people how to do this. This is absolutely something that could be operationalized within the way organizations currently operate.

Speaker 4: 38:22

Yeah, when we think about specifically manager development and we think about the conversation guides that we put out for managers in different scenarios and those are great and how do we take those to the next level, like, here's some questions that you can ask and ways that you can be curious, but then also, what does it look like like we talked about earlier to hold space for those more difficult conversations? How do you show up in those moments? Are we preparing our leaders to do that? So I think there are ways to infuse that into development programs and prepare leaders to be able to show up in those moments in the ways that we would hope that they would.

Speaker 3: 38:52

One of the best meetings I ever attended was somebody who held an afternoon meeting. That was going to be two hours after everyone was coming off of half a day of other back-to-back meetings and they started it with a simple breathing exercise for everyone to level set, let go of everything that they've done. And it changed the attitudes in that call, where people were more present, they contributed more and they were willing to participate. It was normal, it didn't feel weird and it was great.

Speaker 4: 39:23

We've all been in those meetings too, where you come in and it's oh, icebreaker, tell us one interesting thing about you. And everyone rolls their eyes and it's like, oh my gosh, there are different ways. So I love that, mel, that you're talking about different ways to open meetings, because are other things you can do as well to create that transparency, whether it's, you know, just sharing, hey, this is the reality that we're in. Let's just be real about where we're at. There's this realness in humanity that I feel like is lost sometimes, and there's a way that I've seen meetings opened that have been tell us one challenge and one win from this last week, and it doesn't have to be work-related and just being able to share openly, as opposed to tell us one interesting thing about yourself, but in a non-threatening way.

Speaker 4: 40:02

People can share as much as they want. They have the ability to set those boundaries. But there's also we're opening the door to humanity a little bit by saying let's check in and see how you're doing. And, by the way, like when we were in the pandemic, I was leading this one meeting and I kicked it off by like hey, by the way, I know the whole world's on fire out there and so let's not pretend that it's not, let's just acknowledge that, and you could see shoulders come down and people like, oh, thank goodness we're acknowledging this as opposed to just coming into this meeting and getting right to it and let's get after the goals. So there are lots of little ways that we can show up and make it easier to bring our full selves to work.

Speaker 3: 40:36

I will say the best icebreaker I ever heard was what's the least interesting thing about you. So it took the pressure off of the most interesting thing, it's like, I like peanut butter and fluff sandwiches. Who the hell cares?

Speaker 2: 41:05

Is everyone ready for rapid round? Yeah, yeah, okay. So, friends, with all of our guests, we like to do the thing called rapid round. It's meant to be fun, ask you a few questions, provide some short answers, but I will tell you, this is where we typically get some of our best conversations as well. So if we want to go a little bit deeper, we can. Are you ready to play rapid round? I'm ready. Ready to go a little bit deeper? We can. Are you ready to play Rapid Round? I'm ready. Ready to go? Okay, who is a leader you really admire?

Speaker 1: 41:33

my yoga teacher I met when I was 17 years old. I walked into his studio, met him for the first time and he is just absolutely incredible because less than a month later, I emailed about 30 different studios asking for a work tree partnership, because I was 17 at the time, I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford $25 yoga classes in San Francisco. And so he said yes, he'd only met me that one time. He gave me the keys to his studio and said come clean whenever you can take whatever classes you want, and literally this one person changed the entire course of my life and trajectory of my life. Because of him, I am where I am today and I am talking to you all and sharing my passion for movement and mindfulness, and it's all his fault.

Speaker 2: 42:13

Yeah, I love it. I love it. We're grateful for him, then that's awesome.

Speaker 4: 42:19

For me. I've had a few in my life, so it was hard to pick one, but I can share the attributes of those leaders with you, because I think they all shared a common thing, and that was that it's exactly what we've been talking about. They made me feel like a human first. They made me feel empowered to bring my whole self to work. They made me feel like I was valued for more than what I could just produce, and inspired me and believed in me beyond what I felt like I could do. I mean, I feel like that's. The other thing is that they were always so, so great at seeing that potential in me when I didn't see it in myself, and allowing me the freedom to try things, and they held space for me. It's like what we were talking about they held space.

Speaker 2: 43:03

Yeah, it's funny. We were just talking to Alan Whitman, who is the CEO, and he was talking about being able to see the X factor in people and put them in different positions and that idea that somebody believing in you is such a big deal for folks. So I love the connectivity to that in mindful leadership we talked about. So much of mindful leadership is happening in the muck and so I want to give some muck scenarios and see how would you handle this from a mindful leadership perspective. Is there a mindful way to handle office drama?

Speaker 4: 43:38

drama. That falls into two different buckets for me. One is there's the run of the mill office drama, right, which is the we all know what that is. And there's that level where it hits like that toxicity though, where it's like, okay, this is a very unhealthy place to be. We'll go with the extreme.

Speaker 4: 43:49

First, if we're in that really highly toxic work environment from a mindful place, some of those coping mechanisms and skills and things that we've talked about there are others in addition that can be used, but those can help you manage through that and so you can get yourself into a healthier place. So I think about all those ways that you can physiologically balance yourself and also get some perspective. Right, okay, this is happening. How do I emotionally detach a bit and keep myself where I need to be? And then, when you have the run of the mill office drama similar thing you might not be trying to get yourself necessarily out of the situation, like you would be in a more toxic environment, but again, leaning on those skills, the breathing techniques, the different things to help keep your body healthier, safer, during that.

Speaker 4: 44:31

And there's also a level of tapping into that curiosity again. Right, that, okay, what is actually happening here? How am I feeling about what's happening here? What's going on? And then I am leading people and I'm in that scenario. How do I navigate those difficult conversations? Because some leaders, when they encounter office drama, will be like, well, okay, they'll figure it out or I'm gonna let that just unfold or happen. But I think if you're leading from a more mindful place, you are going to be leaning into those uncomfortable conversations. You are going to be self-regulating and working through some of that to try and figure out how to get your team to a healthier place.

Speaker 2: 45:05

That's tough too, because sometimes, as a leader, you don't want to deal with it. But being able to notice when you're realizing, oh, you're getting into a cadence, as opposed to leaning in where you really need to lean in and regulate. Yeah, that makes sense. I'll tell you, we're having an uptick in people getting yelled at at work.

Speaker 4: 45:28

And I'm curious is it a different answer for how you would handle getting yelled at From the perspective of, like I'm the person being yelled at. Yeah, like it's a?

Speaker 2: 45:33

really emotionally charged situation and you are getting yelled at. Yes.

Speaker 4: 45:43

Yeah Well, I think for me, if I was to put myself in that scenario, I would absolutely be paying attention to what's going on in my body. I know I would be having a reaction in my body for sure. There's also a place where you can detach a little bit and realize and recognize oh, this is probably not about me. What else is going on here For me? I will get sucked into that. I'm highly empathic. I'm going to be like, oh my God, I am a horrible person. What have I done that has made them want to yell at me?

Speaker 4: 46:07

But to get to a place where you can realize, okay, this is probably not about me, how do I regulate in the moment, like breathing, and then because potentially that could become an unsafe situation, like if we're talking verbally abusive how do I then remove myself from the situation and say what statement am I going to use to say, okay, I hear you, I see that you're upset. I need to remove myself from the situation right now and go regulate myself. You take care of whatever you need to take care of. And then, if it gets to that place of toxic behavior, abusive behavior, get to a place where you're grounded and then do that post-mortem look at what happened, what level is that, and then what action do I need to take?

Speaker 1: 46:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:48

I love the idea of taking these mindful leadership principles and noticing how are you feeling, and giving yourself and everybody does have the permission to detach and remove yourself from those situations too. A lot of times, that's probably the healthiest outcome for both parties. If someone is yelling at you at work, they're not regulated period, so it's probably best for everybody to go to their corners and chill for a little bit. Okay, well, one of the things that we were curious about is how do you define success? And maybe we can take this from two ways. How do you define success in terms of your practice with mindful leadership? And then does that answer change in terms of how you define success in life?

Speaker 1: 47:25

For me, it's the same and related to what I said earlier about figuring out what works best for you.

Speaker 1: 47:31

A lot of what I've been trying to do over the years is figure out how to undo these external definitions of success and all of these rules that I've internalized about who I am supposed to be or how I am supposed to show up, versus what's actually going on and what I feel, and understanding that the gap between who I am now and who I would like to be in the future is not a character flaw or some kind of thing I need to fix about myself in order to become more worthy or deserving.

Speaker 1: 48:02

I am worthy now in all of the success that I have accumulated and the things that I would like to do with my life. And that is a struggle to remember that and feel that because, like Carissa said, I'm also always moving and wanting to do and serve and create, and when I am not doing or serving or creating, I feel not productive. And so a big part of success to me is figuring out how to undo those thoughts inside and then sink more into stillness and less less doing and more being, and finding gratitude for what I do have right in front of me versus seeking constantly.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Yeah, that's tough. That's just as tough as the blank space in your head, I think. I think that's changes too, like what you really really really want at 25 is very different than what you really really want at 45. Right, like, different than what you really really want at 45, right Like it's it's, it's a that's tough.

Speaker 4: 49:00

I had a similar experience to Aurora, where, when you're younger, you have these ideas about what success looks like and what you want to attain or be or do, and so I feel like these last five years in particular have been about undoing that, and that is a lot of rewriting narratives and expectations and programming of what you feel like you should be, or who you feel like you should be and what you shouldn't you be going for that beach house and the fancy car and all of those ideas of success that have been shown to us from a young age. It's been about unbecoming and then stepping into becoming who I want to be, and for me it is deep connections with other human beings. It gives me so much energy Doing work like this with Aurora. That makes me feel like I'm actually helping to bring healing to the world, bring joy to the world, help people have a space that feels safe to explore what's real for them. That brings me so much joy and energy.

Speaker 4: 49:56

And then I have a big chunk of my identity, too is around exploring and curiosity and wanting to travel. I want to craft a life for myself that I feel like is authentic to me, where I can do those things where I can connect with humans, I can do meaningful work and I can have adventures, explore the world, meet new people, have new experiences. And I think ties in to the way that I practice mindfulness, which is letting go of all of the expectations that I've carried for myself for so long and allowing myself to explore new things and try new things and find what works for me, regardless of if it works for anybody else, and being okay with that.

Speaker 2: 50:35

Last one Do you have a life philosophy, like in one sentence Mine is do the thing that scares you the most.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Keep pushing out of your comfort zone and doing the things that allow you to grow and become the best version of yourself. So you're leaning into that discomfort huh, oh, like literally, if it's uncomfortable, I raise my hand and I'll go do it, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Yeah, that's my thing. I'm like yes, sign me up. If I'm scared of it, I'm in.

Speaker 4: 51:04

You're my hero. Aurora, like that is. That is pretty awesome. Mine actually. Funnily enough, it came from years ago. I was taking a yoga class from Aurora and she asked us to set an intention for the practice and I have carried this forward and this is my life philosophy it's be here now. It's a good one.

Speaker 1: 51:28

I love that. I didn't know that oh, really aww are we all having a moment?

Speaker 2: 51:35

I feel like Mel and I are witnessing.

Speaker 3: 51:36

I'm going to cry.

Speaker 2: 51:37

It's so nice it's so nice, Are we all having a moment? I feel like Mel and I are witnessing so nice. Friends, what's next for you? What's? What's the rest of the year looking like in terms of taking your, your practice forward and to the people?

Speaker 4: 51:51

We are going to be offering some workshops where people can join us and virtual workshops on all sorts of different topics around mindful leadership, so that people can come check it out. Whether you've dabbled in mindfulness practices before or not, whether you're just curious, we're going to offer some sessions for you to come and check out and then later in the year we will be offering a retreat all about mindful leadership and finding your unique mindful leadership style. Ooh, in person. I'm very excited about In person. That was going to be in person, yes.

Speaker 2: 52:26

Ooh, where are we doing this? Paducah, kentucky, do we have it?

Speaker 1: 52:31

Oregon, so it's great for anyone who's local and it's a beautiful property, it's a working regenerative farm and it's just this place where you go and I don't know if you've ever been somewhere where you immediately feel a sense of calm and ease and everything just feels like. But for some reason this place has that vibe and it's so relaxing and we want to create a space where people can practice these things and feel good in their bodies and have time to relax and de-stress, but also learn about these practices in community and not feel like they have to figure it out on their own.

Speaker 2: 53:09

Carissa, thank you so much for joining us today. It was really a pleasure and a delight.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 2: 53:16

Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Workplace Cult of Disruption

Your Work Friends Podcast: The Problem with Change with Ashley Goodall

Change is worshipped in the workplace…

But at what cost? From reorgs to reinvention, disruption has become the workplace religion. For the past 10 years, organizations have not only been incented and are, seemingly addicted to change and disrupting their companies. Mergers, acquisitions, new leadership teams, new technologies, new strategies, new, new, new.   How do we get to this place where it really feels like we're all working constantly in a cult of disruption?

Ashley Goodall helps us unpack how we got here, why it’s exhausting everyone, and what leaders should be doing instead to create meaningful progress. Spoiler: there’s a better way.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

A sensible, healthy, capitalist, profit-maximizing organization will ask itself the question how can we help our employees do their best work first?

Speaker 2: 0:27

Hello friend.

Speaker 3: 0:29

Well, it's June. It's June in 2024. It is.

Speaker 2: 0:33

It's happening?

Speaker 3: 0:34

Do you guys go to the beach? Yes, we do go to the beach, so we live about an hour and a half two hours from the beach when you drive there. I swear to God, this is where they film all the car commercials because you can get on some really nice like serpentining switchbacky roads. They're all tree lined. You just imagine the Porsche commercial with the back tire kicking up leaves and that kind of stuff. It's a beautiful, beautiful drive and you live on the beach.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Well, I wish I lived on it live five like five minutes away. We just got our beach pass. I like to go early in the morning when no one's there, so I'll typically be there early and then I stay until noon and head out when all the people show up. Do you have an umbrella and stuff? If I stay there past noon, if it's going to be a full day thing, I have one of those tents that you, you. It has like a little window in the back and you see like I'll hang my legs out, but I am too Casper, the friendly ghost, to be out in that sun. I got melasma so bad one year. It looked like I had dirt on my forehead. What'd?

Speaker 3: 1:39

you do to get that off Like you're like right now? Yeah, Just eventually eventually rubbed off.

Speaker 2: 1:45

It just looked like I had a straight up patch of dirt on my forehead, like ash.

Speaker 3: 1:49

Wednesday was all here in the name of the father and the son. Yeah, oh, that's really funny, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Thank god for chemicals we are here because we met with leadership expert, consultant and author of several books, but the latest book, the Problem with Change, ashley Goodall.

Speaker 3: 2:11

He's held executive positions at Deloitte and at Cisco, heading up people organizations. Full disclosure Mel and I have both worked with Ashley in the past when our paths all crossed at Deloitte. What Ashley is really wonderful at is thinking about how humans can thrive in the workplace. And in order to do that, what do they need, mel? Stability, stability. I'll tell you, mel. When I read this book, I had two very distinct feelings. One was just total delight because the way the case was written around what work feels like right now was so absurd and so fucking accurate, at the same time that I was laughing through half of the book because I'm like, right, it was so relatable I'm thinking, yeah, man, I could have written these stories too, because this is a hundred percent the experience.

Speaker 3: 3:02

Yeah, especially in the last 10 years. You and I were talking like it doesn't feel like it's always been this way, but the last 10 years it's just gotten more and more and more.

Speaker 2: 3:11

Yeah, and change for change's sake not necessarily meaningful change, and it can feel that way sometimes that it's not meaningful, it's just to do it.

Speaker 3: 3:21

The other very distinct emotion I got was a massive sense of urgency, which is one of the reasons why we wanted to have Ashley on the pod, because it really does feel and the data is in that organizations are not only incented to disrupt and incented to change, ie, bring in mergers, re-strategize, reorg, bring new leaders in. Not only are they incented to do that, but they're almost addicted to it. How do we get to this place where it really feels like we're all working constantly in a cult of disruption? Because that all has a massive human toll, that all has a massive negative impact on companies' bottom line, and so we wanted to bring Ashley in to talk about this. And then what the hell do we do about it?

Speaker 2: 4:10

Yeah, Well, with that. Where's Ashley?

Speaker 3: 4:30

Ashley, welcome to the pod. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Speaker 1: 4:34

It's lovely to be here with you both.

Speaker 3: 4:36

Nice to see you. It's been a while. It's been a while.

Speaker 1: 4:40

I think it must be on the cusp of double-digit years, but we're all basically the same people we were.

Speaker 3: 4:46

A thousand percent. Maybe a little wiser, wiser Maybe.

Speaker 1: 4:52

A little calmer. Yeah, certainly smarter. We're definitely smarter than we were.

Speaker 3: 4:57

And we went through the plague. There's that.

Speaker 1: 4:59

Okay, and that's true. Yes, that's true, yeah, so yay, for the last 10 years.

Speaker 3: 5:03

Yeah, we're going to talk about cheat. One of the things that really struck me with this book was this life in the blender. While I was reading it, I was just like this has been my last 10 years of work, where here comes a merger and acquisition. We're going to re-strategize something. Oh, by the way, now we're going to switch up the leadership team. Oh hi, here's the management consulting firm coming in and they're in the era of the CHRO or they're in the era of the CEO, and now they're going to put their stamp on it. This was something that was like every 10 years, and then it was every five years, and now it's every two to three years, and there are some companies that it's almost every year. They're re-strategizing and it's just so much change that it makes it impossible to feel like you can get anything done, and there's like this massive human toll on it too. One of the things you talk about with the life in the blender is this idea that change doesn't equal improvement.

Speaker 1: 5:58

There's an experiment that I don't write about in the book, involving rats and pellets, so we should probably chat about rats and pellets for a quick. I'll do it, I'll do it.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And I haven't looked it up recently, but I know how it goes. So it goes like this you put a rat in a cage and there's a little lever or, as I say where I come from, a lever, and if the rat presses the lever or the lever, it gets a pellet of food sometimes and other times it doesn't. And so you can do this nice control condition and you can see how often does the rat press the lever if every time it presses it gets food, how often does it press it if it never gets food? And how often does it press it if it never gets food? And how often does it press it if it sometimes gets food. And the result is that the rat that always gets food doesn't press the lever very much because it just presses it when it's hungry and then goes off and has a rat nap somewhere. The rat that never gets food gives up really quickly because rats aren't stupid. The rat that sometimes gets food presses the lever like a maniac because it's like the spontaneous, the occasional reward drives this crazy behavior.

Speaker 1: 7:13

And in a way, listening to your narrative of we used to do change a little bit and now we've done it more, and then we've done it more. It's like we've only got one damn lever at work. It worked a couple of times a few years ago. Has anyone else got any ideas? I don't know. Let's press it again, shall we? It didn't work that time. Let's press it again. It still didn't work. And the rest of us now the rat metaphor fails a little bit are on the other end of the lever somewhere.

Speaker 1: 7:41

I think this idea of constant change, reinvention, transformation, disruption has become the only idea about how to run a company, which doesn't mean it never works. I think there's plenty of evidence that we've gone past the point where it's helping, certainly to the extent that we're doing it today. The irony of all of this is the godfather of disruption, if you like, is Clayton Christensen, who writes a book in 1997 called the Innovator's Dilemma, where he says the young upstarts companies will eat the lunch of the old, established companies because they have a different series of economic constraints and they have many more degrees of freedom, and so they can innovate and innovate, and innovate and innovate. And all of a sudden they go from a crappy product at a ridiculous price point with new customers to customers who suddenly flip from the established players to them because all of a sudden the price point got a little bit better. They got a minimum set of features and everyone can see the upside and hallelujah.

Speaker 1: 8:44

So if you're a big company, be really worried because the upstarts are going to going to take your business away. And everyone goes oh yes, kodak, yes, blockbuster, and you recite the litany of names, of which there are like there aren't 20, but anyway, um, but then you, if you actually read that book all the way to the end, you discover what his prescription is. And his prescription is if you're a big company, you're worried about being disrupted. What you should do is you take a small group of people, separate them from the company, either spin them out or make them a special product team, put them in a different place, wall them off. Give them a guaranteed budget. Give them a guaranteed budget. Give them a very clear mission. Keep a tight group of people. Don't change direction for a while, leave them alone and they will do the innovating for you. And what's that? That stability?

Speaker 3: 9:35

that's stability on both ends.

Speaker 1: 9:37

It's a stability in the legacy corp and in the incubator the innovators dilemma, said differently, is how can we create more stability at work? But no one has ever, to my knowledge, said that's what that book is about. It's actually a book about stability and you know we turn it into catchphrases and it's disrupt everything and disrupt yourself and fail fast and move fast and break things and all of a sudden all hell breaks loose. And here we are having a detailed conversation about how miserable change is at work. I don't think anyone ever intended that we get to this point, but I think we're massively in it now and I think we've got to come up with some different things.

Speaker 2: 10:15

This has a serious impact. This life in the blender is throwing so much around and if businesses are in this hamster wheel of every year you're making a change and you don't have the time or the runway to see the impact of that change and whether it's working before you change it again. So now it's this vicious cycle of the blender. Does it become critical that organizations start to create psychologically safe environments where people can say, hey, this is not a good idea. Do you think the C-suite is open to that? Or boardrooms are open to that?

Speaker 1: 10:49

So I wrote the book, partly out of the sneaking suspicion that C-suites were not aware of all of this. We need to raise our awareness of all of this stuff. Psychological safety is an interesting one. It's a real thing. It's very clear in the literature. That's a thing.

Speaker 1: 11:09

In our discussion of some of the other sort of psychological impacts of change, we can lose sight of the connection between the environment of work and the performance of humans, and it's too easy for people to go you know what. Suck it up. It's called work for a reason. We haven't created these institutions to make you lot happy. You don't get to feel good every day, you don't get to have your mental health and your psychological safety and all of these things, because this is the school of hard knocks. So I think the most important thing to do the whole time is to go listen. You could choose to create a healthy, supportive environment, because that's a good thing to do and you're a human too. But if that argument doesn't get you there, these things are what lead to performance or non-performance.

Speaker 1: 12:03

It is a silly way to run a company to subject it to life in the blender, to constant change, because what you're doing is removing the ability of your people to solve things for you or massively, ironically to innovate. Innovation doesn't come from change, it comes from stability. It comes from a predictable set of relationships and environments and rituals and rhythms that allow people to go all right. I don't have to worry about a whole bunch of stuff. I can focus my time and attention and creativity on a well-understood problem without having to worry that in three weeks' time, I'll have a new boss and I've got to explain what I'm doing to them, and then, three weeks after that, I'll have some other thing and some other thing, and some other thing and some other thing.

Speaker 1: 12:49

So the prescription for all of this is, for sure, change less, have a higher bar on all of this stuff. Understand that we are playing with fire here. Understand that the fire is not people's upset but people's performance. Understand you're dealing with that. And then, sure, we've got to change once in a while. But people have got to learn what stability looks like at work, what the inoculation is against change. And we've got to be very deliberate at creating stability at work, because as soon as you say that to anybody, as soon as you say, how about some stability? The people who are humans go. Oh yeah, that sounds really nice.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Relief right your shoulders drop.

Speaker 1: 13:42

I think that's the world people are imagining, where they say you know what? I believe in change. They're imagining a world where change comes, improvement comes from stability. That's what we're actually all trying to reach for.

Speaker 3: 13:56

Out of curiosity, when you talk to leaders that are sitting at a C-level and you're talking about this case for stability right, the problem with change the case for stability right, the problem would change the case for stability, what is?

Speaker 1: 14:07

their reaction. The ones I talk to, feel the tension between the pressure to change and the need to look after people. I haven't run into many people who would name it stability. So I think what I took away and again, I interviewed people up and down organizations for the book there are people who see quite clearly in executive positions the downside of change. We just haven't given them words and techniques for the counterforce thing. But the folks I spoke to, or the folks I speak to, are not going oh goodness me, I've got to turn down change and dial up stability. They're saying I've got to turn down change. And then what? And is there a way we need to teach leaders, we need to tell stories that the stuff that we all want in the changey change actually comes from the stability. And the stuff that we want in the changey change is performance. Innovation actually comes from stability more often.

Speaker 1: 15:21

It is not to do the jobs for them or tell them how to do their jobs or decide for them how their jobs are best to be done, or tell them how to do their jobs or decide for them how their jobs are best to be done. It is to pin back your ears and listen and look and offer and support and help. And again, the role of an organization is to support its employees in doing their best work, which doesn't start with ignoring the employees and deciding what best work looks like. It starts with paying attention to the employees and how best work happens and where it comes from and back to stability. It leads you to teams. It leads you to ritual. It leads you to helping build people's competence. It leads you to a whole bunch of stuff. But you don't follow the path to any of those things if you don't first understand that a sensible, healthy, capitalist, profit-maximizing organization will ask itself the question how can we help our employees do their best work?

Speaker 3: 16:24

first, Work first. So much of this I am wondering is this on the capability of leaders. When I think about the people that are making the decisions about the change, the transformation, in my experience a lot of those people have MBB firms in their ears telling them this is what your competition's doing, this is what the market's doing. They have pressures from various stakeholders the stock market, the board. You have to keep up. You have to keep up. Some of the reason why we're here is because leaders have the lack of capability to lead.

Speaker 1: 17:06

We can offer a couple of candidate explanations. Right, one is that leaders are living in an ecosystem that demands this stuff and the ecosystem you've named, I think, many of the bits of it. There is a stock market and, by the way, the stock market isn't a person, but the people who analyze the stock market are people, and they've learned that shareholder value is the most important thing. Then there are the people who tell the CEOs what to do, and they're the activist investors and the consultants and the investment bankers, by the way, and they've been brought up in all of this and you keep going down the chain to who are all the decision makers and what are the unwritten truths or, in many cases, the written scale quotes truths of this world, and a lot of it is. We have to maximize shareholder value, even though we can't measure it over any sort of decent time frame or human time frame. At any rate, you run into the sort of idea that you have to take dramatic action, and if you're not taking dramatic action, somebody else will and your competitors will. So there's a lot of reinforcement of a set of ideas and not a lot of people standing up and going hang on a second.

Speaker 1: 18:31

But the alternate concept of work might be run an organization so that its employees can offer their best and reason up from that, up and out from that idea. Up and out from that idea, and that's not crazy in terms of looking after the interests of owners or the interests of customers or the interests of God, help us employees. But that's not the place we live today. We live in a place where there are certain accepted truths about how you run a company and you get to look after the employee stuff until you feel it conflicts with the set of accepted truths, at which point you snap back into the set of accepted truths and you do the layoff and you do the restructuring and you do the spinoff and you do the spin-in, the spin in, and in between them you say words like people are our greatest asset, and everybody rolls their eyes and they put up with it because apparently not many people can think of a different way of doing all of this. But yeah, there is an ecosystem component to all of this, I think.

Speaker 3: 19:40

My concern with that is when that ecosystem is running on quarters like we need to see improvement. We need to see impact financially within the next three months. That's the way almost every organization is living right now. I've seen so many organizations do this as of late. They're needing to make an impact. One of the lever levers is absolutely change and another one is dump the people, get rid of these people. How do you think most organizations view people, view their employees?

Speaker 1: 20:15

I think that many leaders are actually sincerely torn because they can see enough of the ecosystem and they can see enough of the humans and they know that the layoff isn't a wonderful thing to do. And they probably know in the back of their minds that if you do the layoff and the market doesn't like it, that will be the wrong outcome. But if you do the layoff and the market likes it for a couple of days, that will be the right outcome. And they probably also know at the same time that's not the leader they set out to be when they were more junior. I think if you give leaders the benefit of the doubt, you can imagine a leader sincerely and honestly conflicted about all of this. My point would be, to the extent that's true, could you choose option B once in a while? Could you actually choose the people once in a while, or could we have a conversation about starting with the people once in a while, as opposed to the needs of the machine must always drive what we do, because we can't stop the machine, because it's something, sooner or later you go. The machine is us. Come on, folks, we can decide to stop the machine. One way to stop the machine is to take your company private. For goodness sakes, it was Francesca.

Speaker 1: 21:54

You and I have a history at Deloitte, and Deloitte does not worry about what's going on this quarter with nearly the intensity that public companies do, and so Deloitte, in a way, has a different attitude, and private companies have a different attitude to their investors which, by the way, is weird because they're more intimate with their investors, because most of the investors are the partners who are walking up and down the corridors every day. So it's like the private company world has a closer relationship with its owners, which allows them to be long-term thinkers Isn't that strange? Which allows them to be long-term thinkers, isn't that strange? And that the public company world has a much more arm's length relationship with many of its investors at least, which forces them to do short-term things. It's because there isn't a relationship there. It does strike me that when you change the context in which leaders are asked to make decisions, then they can tilt more towards people. I remember one of the things I was most impressed by in my time at Deloitte was what Deloitte did in the Great Recession.

Speaker 3: 23:02

I know that I use this story. Yeah, tell the story, because this is that you tell the story. You tell the story. We'll see if we're telling the same story. It'd be funny.

Speaker 1: 23:11

Fabulous, there were two great stories, yeah yeah, so mine is that deloitte said look, there are some storm clouds on the horizon. So what we would do if we were to do the usual thing would be fire a whole bunch of people and try and weather the storm and then, probably in a couple of years, we'll hire them back again. But that's silly, isn't it? Because we're going to upturn a whole bunch of lives and already things are pretty bad because it's 2008. And we know what was going on in 2008. And so we'll upturn a bunch of lives and then we'll have a whole bunch of hiring costs that we don't need. So we're going to go.

Speaker 1: 23:48

The quote, the phrase I always remember was we're going to go long on people and we're going to carry those extra costs and we're going to take it out of the partners pockets, and the partners will support this, and the partners did support this. And we are going to put people first so that when the storm passes we are more strongly positioned to face into the future. And it worked, and it was just massively sensible. And it shouldn't be the only example I can think of that in the last quarter century. That's the thing that really upsets me.

Speaker 1: 24:26

I'm sure there are other examples that I haven't come across yet, but that's a terrifyingly rare thing for a company to do, and I think if a public company did that today, they would be in all sorts of trouble because the ecosystem would go you people are crazy and the activist investor would show up and go. I'm going to have a proxy fight with you guys now, because you shouldn't be allowed to run this company and the institutional investors would go. You just sank the stock price, so blah blah, blah, blah blah. Was that your story?

Speaker 3: 24:54

No, it wasn't my story. But during the same amount of time and I might be getting these wrong right, big fish stories periodically might have embellished, but during the same time.

Speaker 1: 25:06

Did you say big fish as a verb?

Speaker 3: 25:08

I did. That works, I know, there you go Big fish. Okay, so 2008,. Right, so they went long on people. Another way I remember them going long on people was deciding to build Deloitte University, oh yeah, so not only are we going to go long on people by holding our people and keeping them, but we're also asking for a capital call of the partners, and if you don't know what that is, hey, partners, I need everyone to cough up I'm making this up $100,000 to build a corporate university which, by the way, this was not something that people were doing, because we want this to be this cultural hub to invest in people. As a evidence, proof point of going along on people, again, while everyone was cutting, they went long, and the thing that I think about, though, is that was 2008. It was a recent example.

Speaker 1: 25:59

Our listeners need to write in.

Speaker 3: 26:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: 26:03

Goodness me gosh, how old do I sound. Write in on an envelope, put a stamp on it. Goodness me gosh, how old do I sound. Write in on an envelope, put a stamp on it and send it to us at PO Box, goodness knows what. There are quite a few firms that have gone private recently because they want to exit the quarter-by-quarter ecosystem, the activist-investor ecosystem. There are probably other examples out there of having greater freedom as a private organization. But the answer to all of this can't be go private. It can't be. If you're a large company, that means you've got to find hundreds of billions of dollars. The answer to all of this has got to be have better companies. Yes, people have better companies. How are we going to do that?

Speaker 3: 26:42

Yeah, or going back to every once in a while not even all the time, but every once in a while going along on your people, like making that courageous decision potentially to go along or getting good at the difference between change and improvement.

Speaker 1: 26:56

Everyone's interested in improvement. That's fine. That's actually what the activist people want and the consultants want and the investment bankers want and the analysts want. They actually want improvement, but we've just lost the ability to distinguish between change and improvement. So every change looks like a good change and off we go. How can we make things better?

Speaker 1: 27:29

You have to start with the recognition that change and improvement aren't the same thing. I think people at work know that and most people know a half-baked idea fairly quickly when they see it coming baked idea fairly quickly when they see it coming. And it is career suicide to raise your hand more than a couple of times. So the serious point here is we cannot say in organizations tell us if this is a bad idea, because we've created again a power structure and ecosystem where it's hard for people to tell you. If you're a leader, you've got to get curious and you've got to get skeptical about all of this stuff and you have to think much harder about whether I am in change creating. As you mentioned a moment ago, mel learned helplessness. So people have such a lack of control that all they feel like doing is phoning it in every day, or you're creating anxiety, control that all they feel like doing is phoning it in every day, or you're creating anxiety, or you're upsetting teams, or you're disturbing people's sense of place or meaning or any of those things. But we have to teach leaders, they have to be the ones doing this, and we have to explain what no one has ever explained to them before that this stuff ain't always a good thing and it has some very serious psychological consequences. And if you're in the business of improving an organization, then very serious psychological consequences are things that generally you want to avoid. We need to train leaders massively more intensively and massively differently than we do it today, because we've all seen this Most leadership training in organizations is a sort of afterthought and we very often give people the job of a leader before we train them to do the job of a leader.

Speaker 1: 29:15

And you don't do this for surgeons or for pilots or for anyone who's got somebody else's life in their hands, or for any job where it's really important to be good at it, but somehow we do it for leaders as though, yeah, the leader thing. Look, you were the best of the people at doing the follower job. So we gave you the leader job and the trainings in six months, and meanwhile, here are some articles all about change and disruption. You'll enjoy them Off, you go, good luck. And then what's the person? Do they look around and go? What are all the other leaders doing? They're doing reorgs. They're doing disruption oh dear, I'd better do that as well. And we again perpetuate a cycle of leadership capabilities you were asking Francesca a little while ago about. Is this about leadership capability? I think for sure. It's about leadership training, it's about leadership selection, it's about leadership support. It's about the leadership infrastructure and ecosystem of our organizations in a very significant way.

Speaker 3: 30:15

If I could add one to it and I'd be curious about your reaction to this the cohesion of the leadership team as well. I've seen senior leadership teams where the loudest voice in the room gets the win, and if you can't dissent, or if you can't at least understand how to work together as a leadership team, I don't think your organization has a chance. When you look at leadership teams that don't have a healthy cohesion or a healthy dissent ability, your organization is pretty screwed.

Speaker 1: 30:42

And what does that team therefore lack? It lacks a sense of belonging, it lacks a sense of place, it lacks a sense of meaning, it lacks a sense of certainty, it lacks a sense of predictability, it lacks a sense of control. It is a failing team because the place where all of the things that we're talking about either thrive or wither is on a team. And, yeah, if the top team doesn't experience stability, doesn't know how to foster its own stability, then, yeah, good luck everybody else.

Speaker 2: 31:16

It's interesting, especially if stability is the name of the game, right? One of the use cases is around the onboarding of leaders. When you think about a leader's first 90 days either a new in an organization or just new in their role there is this expectation that they've changed something, that they've innovated on something. Do we start there? Is that the lowest denominator to say stop having this expectation for new leaders?

Speaker 1: 31:41

It is part of the ecosystem thing as well, isn't it? Because we teach people to come in and make change in the first 90 days. Therefore, change is the thing that leaders do. Therefore, new leaders must come and make change. It would be a lovely and fascinating exercise to say to a leader all right, in your first 90 days, I want you to discover everything that's working and elevate those things and explain to everybody why.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Those are examples of the sorts of things you, as a leader, want to build in an organization and just completely flip the script. If you flipped it that way, you would be building massive stability for people, which goes here's who we are eternally. Here's how we do our work eternally. Here's what we value eternally. Here's who we seek to serve eternally. We're going to keep all of those, honor those, elevate those, preserve those, and over here, x and Y. We need to find a better way of doing these things. Can you help? For me at least, that's a very psychologically healthy way of beginning a narrative that feels like an improvement narrative, not a change narrative. Now, this whole conversation is about a hell of a lot more than the narrative, but it is interesting to just try on a few words for size and see how they make you feel as a leader or as an employee, and to see if we've actually put the emphasis on the wrong syllable when it comes to all. Things change and we should emphasize some stability too.

Speaker 1: 33:47

So Mel and I like to do this thing with our guests called rapid round, ideally quick short answers.

Speaker 3: 33:50

However, if you met me, I know I understand, I get it, I get. But this is the thing, this if we need to go off, we need to go off on the scenic route. That's the point. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine. All right, are you ready to play ash Ashley?

Speaker 1: 34:00

The medium quick, medium rapid round. Yes, I am.

Speaker 2: 34:04

We're not willing to take a stand on anything. Hopefully this is a fun one for you. In your book you mentioned the word disrupt. Gets folks extra bonus biz dude points which crack me up. What buzzwords would you like to see die off already?

Speaker 1: 34:24

you like to see die off already. Strategic, which is not considered a buzzword, but is affixed to the front of far too many things to make them sound better than they are and to paper over a lot of very lazy thinking. So you just have to call it an asset. It's not a strategic asset. You have to call it an investment, not a strategic investment, and we can save a few syllables from the world.

Speaker 2: 34:43

I appreciate it. Let's simplify. What new buzzwords are on the horizon that you're like? Let's stop this immediately, before this catches on.

Speaker 1: 34:53

AI is getting.

Speaker 2: 34:54

Oh.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Jesus up to everything.

Speaker 2: 34:56

Truly.

Speaker 1: 34:57

And some things that are AI, which is a thing, but plenty of things that aren't AI and that are actually just math or an algorithm, but it's AI, this and AI, this and AI, this and AI is the new blockchain, because a few years ago it was we'll do this on the blockchain and this on the blockchain and this on the blockchain and this on the blockchain, and sooner or later, you just want to go shut up and sooner or later, you just want to go shut up. Ai is terrifying, I think for me certainly, because it seems to remove humans from a lot of necessarily human interactions, and you've got to ask yourself where does that point to? But I don't think we help by affixing AI on the front of things that aren't AI-like.

Speaker 3: 35:38

All right. What would you like to see CEOs do more of? Lesson how about less of? What would you like to see them do? Less of?

Speaker 1: 35:53

Change for the sake of change. By the way, can I go back now? I'm going to go back to my prior answer Listen. There is an art to listen I don't just mean be conversationally savvy. Create the systems and structures to understand the experience of work on the front lines and then pay attention to that so that there is like an infrastructure that needs to happen yeah, but listening to occur I love that answer.

Speaker 3: 36:14

There's a very deep schism a lot of times between the front line and leadership and, quite honestly, we have all the tools Qualtrics, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah to do that efficiently. It's just listen to it and maybe do something with it. Would be nice too.

Speaker 1: 36:28

But you have to make it a priority and you have to realize that the things that people tell you are not the whole story.

Speaker 3: 36:33

Fair. Yeah, All right. Same question for CHROs, our chief HR officers. A lot of times they are in the ear of the CEO and the people voice sometimes, but what would you like to see them do more of?

Speaker 1: 36:56

I wrote a chapter about it in the book Advocate for Employees. And again, that's a hard thing because of the business decisions we want to make and not necessarily come up to the C-suite and go. You shouldn't do this because this will create uncertainty, anxiety, unbelonging displacement, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. You shouldn't do it. But I would like to see CHROs feel the necessity of doing that more. And, by the way, to give another answer to one of the prior quickfire questions, which is now a slow fire question, I'd like to see CEOs demand that of their heads of HR more. I'd like to see more CEOs go. You know what we actually do, really need to change the balance on the people stuff. And so, head of hr, that's on you, and if you come and tell me we've got the balance wrong, I'm gonna listen to you yes or no?

Speaker 3: 37:53

do you believe most hr organizations are working in benefit of their people?

Speaker 1: 37:57

I think they're missing a few things, like if you look at the way HR is structured. It's structured to support business leaders. Mainly it's structured around business priorities. I've spent countless hours sitting in HR off sites where HR says, all right, as good citizens of life in the blender, we're going to change our strategy. What should the new strategy be? And someone around the table goes we should start with the business strategy and then we should figure out the people implications of the business strategy and that will tell us the HR strategy won't hit. That's an incomplete answer. Yes, it is, because the other part is what do the humans need? And the humans don't need the business strategy. The humans need the conditions of human performance. So those are things we could bring those into the conversation. We could bring those into the strategy.

Speaker 1: 38:45

I would love a stability governance organization in a company. What would stability governance look like? You can imagine HR playing that role. It doesn't at the moment. How do we train leaders, how do we listen and how do we deploy ourselves so that we understand the experience on the front lines? Because, again, most of the time you have to be a business of a certain size to get one HR person who has then massively run off their feet trying to keep up with the leaders charging around doing the business strategy stuff. Their feet trying to keep up with the leaders charging around doing the business strategy stuff. We've got to figure out a way of rethinking that so that we expand HR's portfolio to include the conditions of human performance, because, goodness me, those should live somewhere in our organizational construct.

Speaker 3: 39:34

Yeah, and right now it's like learning and development. Sometimes it's looking at the talent management team and being like aren't you doing that? Are you doing that? Because I'm not doing that, that's not my domain, so it doesn't feel like it's something that is its own entity and needs to be its own entity.

Speaker 1: 39:46

And there's a little bit more to continue my very long answer to this now.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Not at all quick fire. This is the slow fire round that. When HR talks about performance, we get very quickly to performance management and skills and all the things that we can capture in spreadsheets and that the software gives us. But if you go and talk to people on the front lines about what are the ingredients of performance, they go a leader who talks to me in language I understand, a sense of predictability and a set of relationships on my team and there is no line item budget in HR for those things. So the definition of performance needs to be agreed and understood, because HR doesn't actually map to those things. Hr maps to things that you hand money to vendors for, and those things are good organizational administration things, but if you think that those are the same as performance things, then you have a very strange idea of what performance looks like.

Speaker 3: 40:55

Ashley, thanks so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure seeing you and chatting.

Speaker 1: 41:00

Lovely, lovely to catch up, and let's do this again soon.

Speaker 3: 41:03

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends, Thanks Fred.

Jerks at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Jerks at Work with Dr. Tessa West

Jerks are everywhere…

The micromanager. The drama queen. The sly saboteur. Toxic coworkers come in all forms—and they’re not just annoying, they’re disruptive. Ever wondered how to handle that gaslighter or micromanager in your office? Well, we’re exploring these challenging workplace dynamics with Dr. Tessa West, a psychology professor at NYU and author of "Jerks at Work."

In this episode, Dr. West shares her journey from the high-end retail world to academia, offering practical advice and engaging anecdotes that illuminate the complex nature of dealing with difficult colleagues. We unpack how to deal with jerks at work without sacrificing your sanity, success, or standards. You'll walk away with actionable strategies to not only survive but thrive in your professional environment.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

Every jerk I've talked to, because I've been brought in by a lot of companies to do de-jerkifying coaching and most of these people are actually like lovely, and you're like I was expecting a monster and I'm just getting a sad person who is shocked.

Speaker 2: 0:15

The worst kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 0:28

Mel, what's going on? Hey, y'all have a heat wave.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Yeah, we have a heat wave. Yesterday we had an advisory for the air quality. Always a fun alert to get. Fantastic Remember when New York City, though, was in the wildfires last year, you know yeah, I happened to not be home during that time, but my husband sent me pictures. The sky was just completely orange over here, so it's just wild, ah fun with climate change.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Fun with climate change, yeah, good times, yeah. Well, speaking of New York City, we talked to someone from New York City, didn't we? We?

Speaker 2: 1:02

did, we did, we did. We spoke to Tessa West, who is a professor at NYU, and we wanted to get down on the topic of work, jerkery all the jerks at work.

Speaker 3: 1:18

Yeah, this is something that I'll tell you. One of the big themes coming out of a lot of our conversations and a lot of our work, especially on the pod, is how do I deal with these people at work that we will broadly categorize as jerks? The on the pod is how do I deal with these people at work that we will broadly categorize as jerks the gaslighters, the credit stealers, the micromanagers, all the jerks that we deal with. And so we called up Dr Tessa West. She is a professor of psychology at NYU. As Mel mentioned, she's also a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. Mel mentioned, she's also a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. She has written two books One she just dropped that's very cool called Job Therapy Finding Work that Works For you, and the other, mel. What is it? Jerks at Work, jerks at Work. Dr Tessa West has literally written the book about jerks at work, the type of jerks you meet. What do you do about them? What did you?

Speaker 2: 2:06

think about this episode, Mel. I really loved it because I think we've all been jerks at work. I don't think anyone's immune to being a jerk. I think it's on a spectrum, like we say, with a number of other things. But we've all been there. We've either been one or we've experienced it, or both. It's really insightful to think through what that looks like, how that shows up and how you can deal with it.

Speaker 3: 2:28

Loved everything that Tessa walked us through in terms of the types of jerks. What do you do about it? Stick around for the round Robin, because she absolutely gave the best one-liner for how you respond to someone being a jerk that I've ever heard in my life. I'm getting it embroidered on a pillow Awesome, yeah, it's awesome.

Speaker 2: 2:47

Well, with that, here's Tessa. Welcome, Tessa, to the your Work Friends podcast. Tell us your story. How did you get into what you do?

Speaker 1: 3:06

I'm a psychology professor at New York University and I study uncomfortable social interactions. So everything from feedback conversations with your boss to having an uncomfortable interaction in the doctor's office to working with an international group of people on a team and I've been doing this for 20 some odd years. I actually got started really studying this kind of topic of how we handle uncomfortable interactions and how they play out at work by working in retail myself and selling men's shoes at Nordstrom. I have an academic life but a non-academic path to get there, and I think if anyone's ever worked retail high-end retail in downtown Santa Barbara was where I worked. That is just the sort of perfect breeding ground for all difficult people jerks at work, status climbers, customer stealers, all that juicy stuff. I joined a lab at the same time at UC Santa Barbara. That did nothing but put people in these horrifically uncomfortable situations where you're interacting with someone who is giving you dirty looks while you give a speech on why you're a good friend. I was actually the person who gave the dirty looks.

Speaker 1: 4:15

That was my job, and so I learned academically how to study these things and study the physiology underlying people's stress they're under the skin responses while living it out in my own life working in retail, and eventually brought these worlds together to study these topics in the workplace. In the last maybe five to 10 years I've really focused on those really difficult moments we have at work, trying to figure out why we're stressed, why stress threads from one person to another and what we can do about it. And so now I have a good 30 some odd years experience uncovering all the difficult things people go through in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 4:51

One. Anyone who's been in retail myself included, also in shoes, I will add that is a very interesting experience. If you've been in any sort of customer service facing role, I'm sure you've had to have the most insane conversations. So I love that. I know, francesca, and I hear often from people am I a jerk at work one, and how do I deal with jerks at work? Which inspired us to reach out to you because we saw that you wrote a whole book on jerks at work and now job therapy. So in your study I love that you won. Your job was to give people dirty looks Interesting experience.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Sorry, but I'm thinking about. First of all, I know the exact Nordstrom you worked out is the one down in, like the city center of Santa Barbara. Really, yes, I can't imagine like that clientele selling shoes, selling men's shoes, especially when you're a pretty woman as well 18.

Speaker 1: 5:45

I didn't know what I was doing at all.

Speaker 3: 5:48

The dynamics there and the idea of. I love how this started, with this idea of like, awkward dynamics. I'm just wondering how much of that started with either you feeling awkward or you feeling like this person is awkward. Was it a mutual thing or is it more of like? Why do I feel awkward in this situation?

Speaker 1: 6:04

I think at first it was very much. Why do I feel awkward? I'm in my own head a lot and I think there's a lot to play around with there. One.

Speaker 1: 6:12

I grew up in Riverside, california, which is not a fancy place. My dad was a construction worker. I was not used to interacting with these rich Montecito men who would come in and say I need shoes for my gardener and buy like $600 shoes. So there were all there's a lot of status cues going on. So one thing I ended up studying later on was how we have cross status interactions with people who are richer or poor than us or more educated, and how we leak out our social class and all these subtle ways. So I think one of the reasons why I found those interactions so uncomfortable is because I grew up very blue collar and now I'm at UC Santa Barbara selling shoes to this like rich, white, older male population and I was asked to do all kinds of really weird things. I got down on the ground and pet someone's poodle and let it lick my face while I was putting shoes on and I just thought to myself I guess this is just what you do.

Speaker 3: 7:03

I'm okay. I'm okay, this is normal.

Speaker 1: 7:06

This isn't degrading at all. Totally fine. Totally fine, I'm going to make $60. It'll be totally worth it off the sale.

Speaker 1: 7:12

So I think a lot of that awkwardness lived in my head. It came from a lack of understanding norms, not getting the hidden curriculum of how one ought to behave in front of wealthy people. I didn't get that kind of training. And was I awkward? I'm sure I was, but I think most of us walk around with a lot of it living in our heads, more so than it actually becoming a dyadic or interpersonal phenomenon, and I definitely. For me, I try to turn lemons into lemonade and try to make a whole career out of all that really uncomfortable shoe sales experience I had. But yes, I think that the awkwardness is layered on with social cues and status issues and gender dynamics. I was the only woman in whole shoe sales, like in the men's shoes. They never let women sell men's shoes. They had a bro culture. I was brought in because I worked in the store in Riverside where I was also the only woman and convinced them that I could hack it with these bros.

Speaker 3: 8:09

So there's a lot going on, yeah, but what a great story, because I don't think you're obviously not alone in this and not alone in the awkwardness, not alone in the figuring out how to work with people and what those dynamics can do, especially in a work environment.

Speaker 2: 8:22

What was one of the most surprising things that you learned through all of your work.

Speaker 1: 8:27

Yeah, I think one finding that I kept seeing over and over again and I learned this by studying physiology and behavior at the same time is that when we're the most uncomfortable and we could see this in the lab because we measured people's blood pressure so you would get those readings live and measure their heart rate when you're the most uncomfortable, when you're the most stressed, you're the nicest readings live and measure their heart rate.

Speaker 1: 8:45

When you're the most uncomfortable, when you're the most stressed, you're the nicest, most over the top version of yourself, and my colleague, wendy Menez started calling this brittle smiles effect. So like you're so great, this kind of high pitched voice over the top smiling, and what's fascinating is because you're feeling stressed. At the same time, the anxiety still comes out, but in these kind of like weird creepy ways where you smile but not with your eyes right, so you don't have a douche and smile. We have a kind of lower half of you is smiling or you're fidgeting and avoiding eye contact, but saying the right thing and so if you're on the receiving end of one of these things.

Speaker 1: 9:17

It's like the words coming out of the person's mouth are nice, they're supportive, but it's all oozing out through these anxious cues. And what we started realizing is there's the controllable behaviors what we say and then the ones that are difficult to control how we say it and those two often misalign and that can lead to very difficult communication between people. And even talking to your jerk at work, you're probably really nice to that person if you were to go up to them. And we see this in all kinds of contexts and it's a pretty universal phenomenon, also cross-culturally. It's not just in America. I've seen it in Abu Dhabi with people from 50 countries. They do the same thing. I think that's one of our more consistent tried and true findings we found.

Speaker 3: 9:56

That's fascinating.

Speaker 2: 9:59

That's so interesting because I think one. I know I've done that when I've had to present somewhere like the over nicety to people in the room. Oh my God, but it's so interesting, Just the body language that people exude. You can't hide the body language.

Speaker 1: 10:15

Yeah, you can't control it. If you tell people okay, take a deep breath, don't look anxious, it makes it way worse. We tried that. We even tried telling people your partner's not anxious. They just had a ton of coffee today, so they're a little fidgety, they're like anxious coffee, oh my God. No, it actually makes it worse. And then they see even more anxiety than is actually there. It's really hard to get rid of this. It's a super sticky phenomenon.

Speaker 3: 10:37

It's very difficult to undo you just wrote Job Therapy, which we're super stoked about, and in the book you talk about some of the sources people have in terms of the frustration with work is actually due to some of those interpersonal relationships. When I think about people looking at a job pivot or they're unhappy in their career or they're thinking this isn't working for me anymore a lot of times people think it's because I'm not doing the right job or I'm not at the right company, not necessarily about the people you're surrounding yourself with.

Speaker 1: 11:30

I think relationships are everything at work, and I mean that in a lot of ways. So one of the main things that turns on or off our work happiness is our interpersonal relationships with people, and that doesn't just include your boss or the people on your team. That includes the people that you see day in and day out. I think that even if you're an individual contributor and I hear this a lot I'm an individual contributor. I don't need relationships. Of course you do, we all do. It doesn't matter what the nature of your work is. Those dynamics are at play and we know social networking is an important part of the work process, but we don't really understand how. So that's another component is, in addition to the one-on-one interactions you have, where you learn new information. You learn the hidden curriculum. You figure out whether your kiss-up kick-downer has a widespread problem or if it's just you.

Speaker 1: 12:11

All of those things, those kind of sticky interpersonal issues, can really turn our stress on and off. And when it comes to exploring new jobs, people often think about it very structurally I want something hybrid, or I want to work in this new city, or I need a better compensation package. They don't think about the relationship part so much, even though that's actually one of the biggest predictors of what leads us to actually drift apart psychologically from our jobs is the change in interpersonal dynamics at work. But we don't focus on that. We focus on how much we're getting paid or whether we can get promoted. But those things matter, but not as much as those interpersonal relationships, and those relationships are key to doing complex things like developing a new career identity.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Like you can't do that by reading websites or taking courses to improve this and that skill. You really have to sit down for 15 minutes and talk to a stranger and say tell me what your day-to-day looks like. That's really how you develop clarity around things, like a new identity at work, and so I really encourage people even shy people, even awkward people, even people who are individual contributors to really embrace the relational component at work in lots of different ways, and I don't mean you need to be best friends with anyone at work. You can think about relationships in different ways of serving these different purposes, but they're absolutely essential to feeling good at work and feeling good about yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:31

I've absolutely felt that right, especially when I've been in organizations for an extended period of time. Where you feel like you have the relationships, where you feel like you have the network, it's so much easier to get things done and, quite honestly, a lot of times, work is just so much more enjoyable. Yeah, but the thing we talk about a lot too in terms of career development or even getting promoted, is you have to have sponsors, you have to have a board of directors. People need to quote unquote know who you are. That doesn't just happen and that isn't typically just based on your great work. It has to deal with do people want to vouch for you? Do they like you? Do you have the relationship to your point?

Speaker 1: 14:06

Are they willing to expend social capital to?

Speaker 1: 14:09

stand up for you. You know we often don't think about how getting promoted, you know and I don't just mean like literally getting a new job title, but having someone in the room vouch for you is costly for them. You know, even if it's, even if you're good and everyone agrees you're wonderful, if they are going to put their neck out for you and argue that you should get promoted, that means that they can't do it for the next person. In academia, it's like every time the chair goes to the dean and asks for money for a person, that's one less person that they can then ask for the next time, because we have a zero-sum amount of stuff that we're working with and we have to think about. Are we earning these relationships that are helping us in the moment but also helping us build our careers out? And every recruiter, internal and external, that I talked to for this book said that they love developing relationships with people in different stages of their careers, because they will place the same person five times. It's like a real estate agent.

Speaker 1: 15:05

They will sell you a house five times over your life and it is essential for them to get to know you and know if you're going to actually stay in a job. Do they want to place you? Because they don't get a bonus if you don't stay for six months, and so they're going to place the person they know will stay because they stayed in the last thing they placed them in. And those kind of lifelong relationships are also essential for us just in terms of our whole kind of life career trajectory, and we often don't really think about those lifey relationships outside of our specific job context.

Speaker 3: 15:34

Yeah, and then you meet these people that have these massive networks of people and they're so much better off typically than people that don't. I see this a lot too. This is such a small microcosm of this, but when you see people get laid off and then all of a sudden they're starting their LinkedIn profile, or all of a sudden they're starting to reconnect back, and it's like you should have been doing this all along, or nurturing these relationships all along to have that network to fall back on, it's a very small example, but something we see all the time.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Oh yeah, like you don't maintain those relationships and you only turn to them when you're laid off or you blast your whole network one message Like please help me. Like without those interpersonal connections. It just feels like relationship spam and I think no one likes to feel like they're being spammed in any context, especially with someone they know Not at all my parents used to say like relationships are, it's like a garden, it's a reciprocal thing.

Speaker 3: 16:24

Right, you have to tend to them, you have to nurture them and you have to give to get. You can't have it be only when I need you. So nurturing those very strong relationships obviously huge, and also giving your data something that really makes meaningful careers. And then I'm wondering on the other side of it too, where what happens when those relationships turn out to be with people that are just dicks and I've had that experience too, where you're like you're a dick, you're a jerk. And I am curious about how not even neutral relationships, but adversarial, jerky relationships impact people's careers and what they think about their careers.

Speaker 1: 17:06

I think when we have these failed relationships, losses loom larger than gains and we can perseverate on a turned relationship. For years and years I've talked to people that were like I had a best friend and then he became my boss and then I overheard him talking about me in the bathroom and it killed me. I said when did that happen? 1987. I'm still thinking about it and that's normal. When we feel like someone betrays us, we really hang on to that and to the point where we maybe have a bit of a spotlight effect, where we think it's going to damage us more than it actually does and we start to get a little conspiratorial and thinking about how they can damage our networks and things like that.

Speaker 1: 17:46

One of the people I talk about in Jerks at Work is a gaslighter and they're like the masters of trying to damage your network. Right, they don't just go after you, they go after your reputation and by doing that they hit everyone. That's a node in your network. Most jerks we deal with have less power than we think they do. Even if they tell us they're full of power and full of status, a lot of it is more bark than bite, so you need to actually do the work to figure out if there's a real concern there about that reputational damage and then be proactive about not trash talking the person but just information gathering.

Speaker 1: 18:19

We often have this instinct of they're going out there saying bad things about me.

Speaker 1: 18:22

I'm going to go out there and correct that by saying bad things about them.

Speaker 1: 18:26

But stop and take a breath and think, ok, I'm just going to information gather and get the lay of the land of my own reputation so then I can correct it and not make it about them at all, even if the person deserves that kind of negative reputation.

Speaker 1: 18:39

You have to just be super careful with gossip because you just never know how it's going to be used in the future. And we all gossip and it serves an important purpose. But the retribution piece, the piece that the it inside of you really wants to go crazy, is where you just have to focus more on controlling the narrative around your own reputation, figuring out how white for the problem is, and then I'd say these relationships fail fast. If you are getting red flagged that this person is saying negative things or credit stealing or whatever, disengage as quickly as you can from that. We all have stories I have some of when I first started going too far into a relationship with someone who is weirdly competitive or had some other tick that just didn't align with me and letting that relationship stay for too long.

Speaker 1: 19:20

And I think that's where we get a little messed up at work. We think people need to be our best friends and sometimes you figure out they're not and just disengage. I think is key. But yeah, it can hurt. I still have my stories from 20 years ago I still think about so I think it's pretty normal.

Speaker 3: 19:35

I have a reoccurring dream about somebody and it's just like why won't this go away? I see your face.

Speaker 1: 19:44

I understand. I understand it's like an ex-boyfriend they got a weird breakup with and there was no closure, none.

Speaker 3: 19:51

Yeah, and I still. There's certain things. I can't listen to. A certain song You're just like oh, I am burned. You're like I can't. Nope, nope, nope, yeah, but taking away that power to your point around when you're in it, disengaging like you don't need to keep working at it. Disengage number one and number two.

Speaker 1: 20:17

Focus on your own PR and not bad-mouthing them, right, ie Taylor Swift trash-chakes itself out at some point, hopefully, or just be very strategic about the nature of the bad-mouthing. I'd say if you do go to HR, you want to bad-mouth, don't focus on your feelings about the nature of the bad mouthing. I'd say if you do go to HR, you want a bad mouth, don't focus on your feelings about the person or your kind of description of their personality. Focus on exactly what they've done. When I have conversations with leaders about difficult people, I'll say something like okay, I'm going to tell you what happened, and if I start to editorialize this a little bit, just let me know, because I don't mean to. And then followed by we had this meeting and this is what was said, leaving my emotions aside and I don't use words like they're untrustworthy or they're disrespectful. Those are very eye of the beholder and not everyone's going to agree with you about what those things look like. So I just described the behaviors and then it makes me look like a more mature person.

Speaker 2: 21:03

Stick to the facts. But all goes back to the golden rule right Is like focus on yourself.

Speaker 1: 21:13

Don't worry about others. I'm curious, why do people show up like this? I'm a firm believer that most people who are jerks don't actually know it, because it harms them a lot to not have solid networks and good reputations. I'm dealing with a jerk right now at work and we just got some feedback about the people who report to her and it's all pretty terrible and she's been here for a long time and I asked her closest colleague what's going on. He goes oh, no one tells her. No one's ever told this person what's going on and I said why not? Because she gets a little scary and defensive.

Speaker 1: 21:41

So it's like one sign that this is going to involve some conflict or a little bit of social finesse to maneuver around and everyone's like, no, thank you, they're not getting rewarded for giving her this feedback. They don't win. She's powerful. So they could actually lose social capital. And I think most of us walk into those conversations thinking I could lose a lot if this goes poorly. And what am I gaining really by being honest with this person?

Speaker 1: 22:04

And most feedback is delivered pretty poorly and it takes the form of what I just mentioned. It's things like you're not trustworthy or you're disrespectful and no one really knows what. Some of them are out to draw blood, but I think most of them aren't. They just aren't very socially perceptive either. They don't pick up on cues that maybe, like other people, are unhappy with them. Every jerk I've talked to because I've been brought in by a lot of companies to do de-jerkifying coaching and most of these people are actually like lovely and you're like I was expecting a monster and I'm just getting a sad person who is shocked the worst kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Yeah, we talk about that all the time how the feedback just doesn't happen. Renee Brown's clear as kind is for a good reason and real time, and not just those big words, as you mentioned, but like actionable things that they can truly address, like clear feedback that's actionable, not just feelings. What's the worst kind of jerk that you've seen in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 23:16

The one that causes the most psychological damage, I would say, is the gaslighter.

Speaker 1: 23:21

And that is a word that like took on its own. It had its own moment. It's very much in the zeitgeist, but those are people who are lying with the intent to deceive on a pretty big scale and they socially isolate their victims. And so a lot of the people who've been gaslit. It's been going on for a very long time. They've been cut off from their social networks and also it's not always in the form of an insult, or you're not good enough or you're going to feel a lot of it's fiery feedback.

Speaker 1: 23:48

You're a special person. I'm only bringing in one member from the team to know about the super secret mission that we're on together. Before you know it, you've stolen company secrets and general counsel's at your door, but you had no idea. You thought you were a part of a super special secret mission. So I think people have a complicated emotional reaction to being gaslit, partly because there's a guilt that they have done some unethical things, that they felt silly, that they were talked into, and then they have no idea what other people actually think of them and who they can trust to to get an understanding of their reputation and they feel very lost and many of them, because of that, have so much trauma that they don't trust anyone ever again in any workplace. So for these folks this is really a traumatic experience. I think it's fairly rare to run into a true gaslighter. It's different than someone who lies, but that is a very damaging one.

Speaker 2: 24:40

Yeah, I've experienced that before, francesca, you have too, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:45

Do you think a gaslighter is like pathological?

Speaker 1: 24:47

Yeah, I think it's like access to personality disorder stuff. I think it's a lot of these are contextually based.

Speaker 1: 24:56

Jerks can be bred at work, but I feel like you have to have a special combination of some dark triad traits or whatever to really thrive, because and a lot of these gaslighters are quite good at their job- and they're very powerful and they're well-connected and they know how to frame up themselves to be protected from whatever they've asked you to do in aiding and abetting, and they usually walk out with pretty clean reputations at the end of the day and that's very frustrating for people. There's not like a sense of procedural justice.

Speaker 3: 25:29

One thing I've been having a hard time, and I am someone that is there's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women. That is my thing, and so it pains me to say this, because this is just my observation. What I have been trying to suss out, though, is most of the gaslighters I have met have been women, typically, I'd say 40 plus. I know there can be male gaslighters that are 18 years old like that, so that's fact right. What I've been trying to suss out, though, is how much of that type of behavior has been the world that they've grown up in and had to fight for and compete for in a male dominated world, yada, yada versus the pure pathology. And then where's the line where it's no, this is just who they are versus this is what they've been bred to?

Speaker 3: 26:10

do that's hard sometimes for me to suss out.

Speaker 1: 26:14

There's a lot of research on queen bee syndrome and things like that right, so you get these women in male dominated fields, and I'd also say that discrimination against women is there are no gender differences in who actually does it, and so people are like women shouldn't be discriminating against women. They do just as much as men do.

Speaker 1: 26:33

There are almost no documented kind of gender of the perceiver effects, meaning the person who does it. But when women do it, it stands out, it's much more salient and it also often takes more of a social aggression form, because the way women tend to be aggressive is much more sort of convoluted and social. And it starts when we're six years old and we learn these tactics of aggression through. Little boys hit each other, little girls gossip about each other, and there's a developmental trajectory of how we learn to be successfully aggressive that we can then take to work and the queen bees the women who've made it in these male-dominated fields. They have often suffered quite a lot. That they think earns them the right to then behave the same way. I have had a very similar experience where the people who I felt discriminated against me the most were more senior women who felt like they went through the gauntlet. It's now my turn and I need to just suck it up.

Speaker 1: 27:27

So there's a lot of kind of stereotypes about what one ought to do as a woman, when you're allowed to have babies, how you're supposed to behave and dress and no one's ever told me how to dress, except for other women showing up in job interviews. So I do think there's like a special dynamic that I think happens there with these women who have succeeded in these male dominated places.

Speaker 3: 27:47

Yeah, I like the term queen bee though, because I think that gives a nice frame for that, because it's hard Sometimes it's hard to assess. You talked about the gaslighter. In your book you write about other types of jerks at work and I'm wondering if you could give us a bit of this survey. What are the other types of jerks people meet at work?

Speaker 1: 28:05

My favorite is the kiss-up kick-downer, and this book is actually based on someone I worked with at Nordstrom's. This is why I love this person. They are very good at their job and they're super socially savvy, and so they're high on what we call status acuity. They can read the room. They can walk into a room and tell you who has status, who has respect and admiration and who doesn't. They can walk into a room and tell you who has status, who has respect and admiration and who doesn't. They can figure that out pretty quickly. So the boss tends to love them. They tend to be top performers, and if you are to complain that they are mistreating you so they kick down people at their level or beneath, you're going to get a lot of eye rolls and you're just jealous, and so they're very clever and savvy and Machiavellian and are able to get ahead through these kind of tricksy ways. They're very careful about who they gossip to and about, and they only do it in a very strategic way. And so if you have a workplace with a hierarchy which every workplace does these individuals tend to be very good at climbing up that hierarchy and then reading who has the status within that hierarchy. So that's my favorite.

Speaker 1: 29:04

I think some of the more straightforward ones are like the credit stealer who we are all probably pretty familiar with, and this person is also savvy. They tend to actually they don't just steal all their credit, they'll give you public credit for certain things so that when you then go complain it's much easier for them to say what am I talking about? I just gave them this whole speech publicly about all the hard work they've done. So credit stealers have a bulldozer type in my book as well. So this is a person who takes over meetings and agendas. They can usually work power structures behind the scenes, so you have a lot of things that end in an impasse and you're not quite sure why or what's happening, and these can all be team members.

Speaker 1: 29:43

And then I have two types of bosses. I have the micromanager, who I think most of us are familiar with, those insecure bosses that oversee all your work and they tend to do a lot but not get anything done. And then the neglectful boss, who, ironically, tends to also be a micromanager. So that's usually one person who oscillates between micromanagement and neglect. While they're micromanaging you, they're neglecting someone else, and so the neglect really gets operationalized as ignore, ignore, show up at the 11th hour, top-down control, change everything. Everyone freaks out, has a stress response and then they leave again for six months. So they go back and forth. So micromanager and neglectful boss are two people, but often one person.

Speaker 1: 30:27

And then the gaslighter who we just talked about.

Speaker 2: 30:37

I feel like I've encountered all of those in my career At the same time, sometimes all in one. I'm curious do you think every employee has been a jerk at work?

Speaker 1: 30:51

Yeah, if you've worked long enough, you are a jerk. We all have our own Achilles heel. We all have the worst version of ourselves that we can bring to work. And maybe that's a person who gets jealous and insecure and so it gets lashy outie. Or my son would say you're lashy outie. Or it's someone who feels like they need massive certainty and they're not getting it from their boss and so they hover over your Google page as you're working and they call you and you have to hide under your desk. I think we all have that version of us. When we get stressed and anxious, and some of us, that instinct is to try to overpower, to get that internal sense of control. Some of us disengage completely and become neglectful, and then some of us just have an inner instinct to be a little bit Machiavellian.

Speaker 1: 31:36

It's what we've seen, If you work in a law firm, anyone who's made partner probably is a little bit on that Machiavellian scale and thinks it's okay to kick down to climb ahead. And I think the key is just knowing what that ugliest version of you is on the inside so that you can then not make it go away but put steps in place structurally to prevent that person from coming out. But I do think we all have our inner jerk and that can be a different person at different stages of your career as well.

Speaker 1: 32:03

When you're more or less secure in a role versus completely overwhelmed, but plenty of security psychologically. But I'm a cynical person and I study the dark side of human nature and put people through really egregious social interactions to bring out the ugly version, because the nice version is not so interesting for me. But yes, I do think most of us have some inner jerk.

Speaker 2: 32:24

Yeah, I think it makes sense. Right, we're human beings, you show up that way. But I think, to your point, it's the self-awareness that's so critical, just knowing what that is what can come out. So how do you tame that, focusing on that? For employees, specifically, what are some of the ways that they can identify a jerk? Because, as you mentioned, there are covert jerks. They might not even realize that person's a jerk. And then there are some in your face jerks. One of my favorite things that you say is work jerkery, right, is this an environment full of work jerkery or not? Starting in the interview process, can they start to see that?

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yeah, I used to study first impressions. What can we get from the first 30 seconds? And actually thin slices of human behavior are actually pretty accurate predictors of the future. One thing is most work jerkery shows up a little bit ambiguous. In fact it is rare to say they're prejudiced. You don't you got to add up all these behavioral cues and then blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Work jerks are a little bit like that, where you're going to have maybe a gut instinct that there's an ambiguous situation that could go either way. The first thing I tell people is do not just trust your instincts, that you can magically read what's going on in someone's mind simply by looking at their nonverbal behavior. I've done a lot of research on interpersonal accuracy and what it really takes to know what someone's thinking or feeling, and there is no magical thing. You simply have to ask, and in the case of work jerks or in an interview, you need to ask around. You need to ask networks of people. I think if you're interviewing for a job, you want to ask at stage two or three of the interview to not just talk to the hiring manager or your boss but to talk to their team members and to talk to people who've cycled out of their team at some point. You want to gather as much information as you can by people who have what's called non-overlapping social information, so they're not always in the same room at the same time with the person. They've known them at different time points in that person's career. They've known them at different jobs or on different teams and look for the signal and the noise there.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Don't trust your instinct based on what they say or their nonverbal behavior or whatever. Base it on data that you can collect. We aren't great at information gathering in an interview stage because we want to impress so badly that we just try to put our best foot forward and say the right things. But once you get far enough in the process, you should feel confident enough to ask for other connections of people and people who know those people to gain that kind of like reputational map of the individual.

Speaker 1: 34:53

What you're looking for is like cross situational consistency across these 15 different interactions, across these 15 people. When they're stressed, they do X, when they're relaxed, they do Y. And you need as much data as you can get because any one person could have a weird experience, and so you're just looking for some consistent patterns of behavior. But really don't trust your instinct. I think that's where most of us go wrong is oh, I saw them give me side eye, or they looked bored. I think they're a jerk. No, none of that stuff is actually predictive. Gather information from the networks of people in the interviews.

Speaker 2: 35:23

Okay.

Speaker 3: 35:25

Yeah, all of us with a resting bitch face appreciate that answer.

Speaker 1: 35:28

Thank you, I have an RBF. There's a science behind the RBF, folks. If your upper lip turns down when your elastic mind does, that gives you RBF. That's the magical ingredient, and so do we want to assume that everyone with a downturned upper lip is a bitch?

Speaker 2: 35:42

No, we do not. I was in a meeting once and I had a leader IME as I was presenting like fix your face.

Speaker 1: 35:49

I'm like what? That's not cool, that is bad behavior.

Speaker 2: 35:53

Yeah, I'm like I don't even know what's wrong with my face. I can't see it so cool, not helpful, yeah. Okay, I'm curious psychologically because you even mentioned something earlier. Some folks might not even ever recover from the damage that this does to them. Like, what are the long-term psychological impacts on the individual, but even teams and organizations? What happens when there's a culture of, like, jerk culture?

Speaker 1: 36:22

Yeah, I think people learn what it takes to get ahead, and the smart ones will do it, and so jerk cultures, beget jerk cultures. If a place is a place where jerks can thrive, then they will hire and they will stay there and they won't ever cycle out because nobody wants to recruit them outside of that place. And this happens with a lot of high performing jerks. There's a reason why snakes in suits is a phenomenon that we actually talk about that you get high up enough you become a little bit of a psychopath. That's not true for every organization, but it's really hard to correct an organizational cultural reputation. That can take years, and you can even wipe everyone out of the organization that was a jerk and hire a new, and it will still take forever.

Speaker 1: 37:05

We know from the science of social network and reputation spread that removing those people with a negative reputation actually does very little to change what people think of the network as a whole. And if you can think of organizations that have had Title IX issues or Me Too issues, simply getting rid of those people isn't sufficient. And it's because people know that firing is easy, but actually promoting from within and proving that you don't breed that is hard and that takes years and years. And a lot of organizations went through this with me too. They just fired all those executives that sent those nasty text messages or sexually harassed women or whatever.

Speaker 1: 37:49

That seems like too easy of a solution to most people. They think, well, why did that person get away with it for 20 years? I don't care that you're firing them now. And there's a bit of a moral licensing effect that happens. Okay, now you feel like you got rid of them. Now you're going to really go crazy because you checked off the box right, like you're feeling good about yourself, morality wise. So I think there is damage that can last years and decades. And to the individual, they're just going to be super sensitive for looking for anything that is similar to their past, jerk and even incidental similarities that have nothing to do with it or are going to cue them up. I've talked to people who go to the same hairdresser. I can't trust that person.

Speaker 1: 38:23

Or they're wearing a similar jacket or they went to the same university or are trained by the same manager 20 years ago. Incidental similarities loom large for us and we often see correlation and inferred causation from that, and so people will start to get a little bit too triggery with those things and it can really hold them back right. Or they develop lay theories about why that person treated them in a certain way that are not ever really tested or explored. But we just have our theories and then we believe them and they're idiosyncratic and we stick to them, and I think that can really lead us astray as well.

Speaker 3: 38:57

What do you do? What do you do if you have that person? Let's take my example. I have a reoccurring dream about this dumb person. I know what do I do you?

Speaker 1: 39:04

don't have any closure in that relationship. Did it just end one? I have this with like exes. It just ended one day and you never saw them. You never did the exit interview where you said all the things or it's really hard to let go of these. Like the social psychologists would call this a goal incompletion.

Speaker 3: 39:39

You didn't complete the goal of ending the relationship, and so it's this kind of subtle, incomplete goal that you have, like never jumping off a high dive, and so you're just going to perseverate on it, or it's going to like sneak into your subconscious every once in a while, and that's true for all things that we don't complete.

Speaker 3: 39:46

Should you call them up? Who is this? I don't even know who this is. No, it's super fair. Super fair, I think, even just knowing, look, it's going to pop in. That's it. Let's just know what's going to happen.

Speaker 1: 39:51

I still dream about, like people from sixth grade that I feel like I didn't have like closure on, and that's normal. It's actually totally normal. It doesn't mean that this person is still haunting you in any meaningful way. It just means that there was something incomplete that you are not able to fully move on from because you just didn't finish the goal of ending that relationship in some kind of formalized way. And that's how most relationship ends. I think that's like just how relationships are. We don't usually have some kind of light switch that goes off where it's done. It's just like a lot of ambivalence, a lot of feelings that go up and down, and then eventually we move on. But what does move on me? I don't. Yeah, it means you're still dreaming about the person, but you're functional, so it's nice.

Speaker 3: 40:34

A thousand percent. I'm glad I'm not the only one, though, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Just write them a letter saying all the things you need to say and throw it into a fire and release it.

Speaker 1: 40:43

She's going to be dreaming about the fire and talk to the fire to get the letter back Will be a worse nightmare than it started as.

Speaker 2: 40:52

Okay, scratch that All right. So with say, you're in a new job, it's the first 90 days and you're like, oh shit, I thought I did my due diligence in the interview process. I talked to people but it is clear no one gave me the real story here. What can people do? What do you do to protect yourself if you start to identify work-jerkery happening?

Speaker 1: 41:19

I think, first off, a lot of people try to go at this alone. They think that the negative treatment happens in a vacuum. And I think I've done a lot of research on what it's like to be a newcomer at work and newcomer status and the newcomer hump, and knowing what that hump is will help you strategize of what to do next. The first thing is, when you're a newcomer and you experience this, you assume that everyone around you knows it's happening and they don't care. And so first you actually need to test that assumption. Probably people don't know what's happening because they're in their own world. There's not actually an awareness of what you're up to and how you're being treated by other people, even if it happens in a meeting. Most of us spend most of our time in meetings rehearsing what we want to say next, and we almost never pay attention to what other people are actually saying. So we can remember what we said and when we were interrupted. But if you were to say, hey, mel, did you interrupt your buddy Tom, or when was he interrupted? You'd be like I don't know. All I know is when I was interrupted. So I feel like we have these spotlight effects on ourselves, so you need to break that a little bit and actually break that assumption that everyone knows what's happening except for you.

Speaker 1: 42:26

There's also a lot about norms in the workplace and hidden norms and things like that you probably aren't aware of, and so the best thing to do to learn about norms of treatment of people at work is to take what's implicit and make it explicit and just explicitly ask about how people ought to be treated.

Speaker 1: 42:41

And that sounds silly and dumb, but there could be a culture of sarcasm here or a culture of treating each other a little roughly. That is just does not sit with you well and you need to know if you're being mistreated or if this is just a normative way people act around here. I remember in academia we make people go through this like terrible two day interview process and there's a job talk that's an hour long and in some microcultures you can interrupt every three seconds and that's a good sign. It shows engagement and others. If you interrupt every three seconds, that means you're done, that means they hated the talk, and so we often have these little microcultures at work that we assume are bigger and more industry-wide than they actually are, so people could be assuming that you understand a norm that you don't because it's weirder and more idiosyncratic than they even realize.

Speaker 1: 43:28

And this is even true for jargon at work. People assume everyone in an industry uses jargon. Jargon is team-based. The five people are using the same weird words. So you want to just test your assumptions around that If it is widespread and everyone agrees it's okay behavior and you don't like that, that's your red flag. You are not going to change the whole organization and get them to all behave differently. So those are like the two key pieces of this job is probably not going to work out for you.

Speaker 1: 43:53

Widespread and everyone's okay with it, not okay with it not widespread, then you have hope. Then you can proactively work with your network or your boss or whatever. But almost everyone assumes behavior is both more widespread and more acceptable than probably others realize and they're shocked when they hear about it and a little bit surprised. So test those assumptions before you jump ship and start something else. But it is pretty normal to think you're hired into one culture and show up and get something different. I'll say all that with one major exception being. A huge problem that came up during COVID and still happening is engagement issues. You thought this would be a really engaged workplace where everyone was on board and they were active and they were in, and then you show up and like literally no one is there. That is a really tough kind of cultural level of disengagement or neglect. That is hard to fix and I wouldn't try to take that particular issue on.

Speaker 2: 44:44

What if it's your boss in those first 90 days?

Speaker 1: 44:48

Yeah, you can talk to other team members to see how they're being treated. But my favorite lay of the land networking reality check tactic for bosses is you don't want to go to your boss's boss, you want to go up and over. You want to find people who know your boss, who are at the same level as them, and so they can give you insight into this treatment. No-transcript, I have all these kinds of like little tricksy rules based on marital therapy of how to do it. But before you're even there, you want to know oh, is this what all middle managers do, or is this just mine? Going two levels up is a little bit difficult, but up and over at their level in the network is useful to just get feedback from other bosses who have a similar role as yours.

Speaker 2: 46:00

I really like that because then you're comparing and you have data to compare it against, and it isn't just the assumption that your boss is the problem, so to speak. Not saying their behavior is great if it's common either.

Speaker 1: 46:13

But yeah, but you want to know. I think when people are like, how do I know if the jerk problem is too much, I, my first question is how widespread is it? How culturally normative is it? Are they hiding their behavior Cause they know it's bad, which is a good sign for you, because that means this organization doesn't actually like it. It's so scary to deal with, but that's a good sign that it's not just the whole well has been poisoned, it's just this one person. And is it OK to give any kind of feedback to bosses and some organizations? They have a very tight hierarchy and it's completely unacceptable to ever have a real conversation with your boss that is not just about your own career path and your own performance, but about theirs. So you want a place that actually does like bite-sized, normal conversation, organic feedback across all levels.

Speaker 2: 46:59

I know we're talking about like how leaders can manage this one-on-one with folks on their team. But what do they do if they see that the team is developing this culture of jerkery together? What can they do to address it without killing?

Speaker 1: 47:15

morale on the team or trust within the team. I think you know I teach this little program called the tricky situations, and it's just a bunch of these workplace dynamics and one of them is I actually give people an example of a situation like this where you think you know who the jerk is. Bob is constantly taking on the work of senior people. It seems like there's a free rider problem at work. Why is Bob doing everyone's work, even though he's the most junior person? How do you deal with this potential free ride problem? And half the people will come to me and say, oh, clearly these senior people are taking advantage of Bob and they're offloading work. And the other half will say, oh, I've had a lot of Bobs before. These are these go-getter junior people who steal the work of senior people in an effort to climb up, and they do this in a systematic way. And so we have our lay theories of who the actual jerk is in the situation. But we should probably test that out a little bit.

Speaker 1: 48:10

I don't love the idea of bringing people in one by one and interrogating them and asking them what's going on. I actually more like to keep track of the structure of things who's doing work and when Was this work you were assigned to do or not? Let's talk about the feedback interactions you're having and focus on the little behaviors and work together with everyone as a group. One-on-one meetings end up with conspiratorial thinking often, and sometimes you eventually have to get to that, especially if HR is involved. But you want to hear. You want your whole team to hear one message from you at the same time and not assuming that the jerk is the high status person or the low status person or you even know what's going on. So I'd say, like a lot of information gathering and put your stereotypes aside of what you think is happening before you do. But I do think that teams that there's a lot of structures and systems that we can put in place to prevent jerks and not allowing things like informal networking behind the scenes to pull levers of power good old boys club networking, things like that that used to work to get people's way and so far as we continue to reinforce that and we don't have real procedural justice around rules and decision making, I think we're in trouble.

Speaker 1: 49:15

And I'd also say for bosses and leaders, if you want to make a jerk free place and you want to prevent Machiavellianism and things like that on your teams. You need to lay out super clearly what the structure is for determining raises and promotions at your organization, down to things like certain bosses don't have the status and power to do it until they've been here for five years Really clear. And then I'd say the other thing is we need more failure pipeline data so that when we aren't promoted or when we're not succeeding, we're not bitter about it. We don't start to engage in kiss up, take down behavior to get ahead. We understand that it takes five times to get this promotion and we're only on time three or we know who our social comparison others are.

Speaker 1: 49:54

So there's procedural justice around decisions that don't often favor us, because what happens when people aren't getting ahead is that's when they turn to this jerk behavior to try to do whatever it takes. And transparency, I think, can move mountains with just explaining to people, even if they don't like the rules. If they understand them, they're less likely to turn to jerk behavior to get ahead, and that's usually where we see it actually to get their way to get ahead, to pull levers of power. That's where most people turn into jerks at work.

Speaker 2: 50:20

We can see that Francesca and I talk often about the power of transparency in the workplace, because you're removing the confusion for folks immediately and they don't have to fill in the blanks and suddenly they're in survival mode every single day because they don't know what the story is or they don't have clarity on the situation. So now it's just an unsafe environment. Do you think organizations are doing enough to address jerks at work?

Speaker 1: 50:45

No, they wait till the problem crops up and then they play whack-a-mole. There's not a lot of prevention. Think about this through the lens of healthcare. Right, we wait for the heart attack to happen and then it's time to lose weight. There's not a lot of prevention and early detection and conversations to see the early red flags, to see their warning signs, and I think that's just because most of us don't know, and often the early red flags are not what ends up being the problem later. Those early signs are not often perfectly aligned with what ends up getting you reported to HR. Anxiety and stress and feeling overwhelmed is often an early red flag of micromanagement. But that could be anything. So I don't think so. I think people talk about it a lot, but they don't do a lot to actually address the issue. One of the dark reasons why is because a lot of these jerks are high performers.

Speaker 3: 51:32

At the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 51:33

We are very much yoked to performance metrics and that if you have a board, they care about that. If you're publicly traded, that's what matters, Not nice people, not so-called soft skills. And so there's good reason for people to just say I don't care about all this stuff. I have to answer the board and if our numbers stay low, I don't care. That we have jerks, we can't afford this. Bring in the Machiavellian people who will bring our numbers back up. Sorry, that was a little bit dark.

Speaker 2: 52:00

We've seen it.

Speaker 3: 52:05

Yeah, I know, there's the whole Gary Veer chat. If your best-selling salesperson is a total asshole, go in and fire him tomorrow. No one's doing that, and you can absolutely do the long-term analysis of how much that is costing you by having someone be a jerk right Turnover and we know all the stats. But that's a long-term play and we live a quarter mile at a time in corporate America. Okay, all right, tessa, we do this with all our guests. It's called Rapid Round. They're quick, short answers. They're meant to be fun. Are you ready to play Tessa? Sure, okay, six questions, so no pressure. In your opinion, who's the biggest jerk of all time?

Speaker 1: 52:52

Donald Trump, is that basic?

Speaker 3: 52:56

Depends on who you talk to that guy. Oh, that guy.

Speaker 1: 53:02

Yeah, that guy. There's no redeeming qualities, there's just not.

Speaker 3: 53:07

I can't, I can't, I can't, can't, I can't, I can't believe I know, okay, yeah we're here again. We're here here we are here, we are, here, we are, and this is why I'm looking for eu citizenship. So, looking at property in italy, looking at property in spain, just in case shit hits the fan, there you go all right, I right, I have a Canadian husband.

Speaker 1: 53:27

I'm good, I'm covered.

Speaker 3: 53:30

Nice, excellent move, excellent. Toronto's looking really good these days. That's so funny.

Speaker 1: 53:38

What's the fastest way to identify a jerk in the workplace Ask around, just ask around. Don't trust your instincts. Gather data.

Speaker 3: 53:46

What's the best one-liner response to a jerk's rude comment?

Speaker 1: 53:50

When someone's rude to you and I wish I could go back and do this the last time someone did something awful to me that I just met I would say how many other people have you said that to?

Speaker 3: 53:59

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1: 54:04

That's great. It's a good zinger and it really gives you the power back and makes it look like you're just judging them for the behavior. But you're not internalizing it. Oh, that is the shit.

Speaker 3: 54:16

How many people have you said that? To Just give me goosebumps. I'm like, oh, that's good.

Speaker 1: 54:19

That's very good I love that. I love that For more mean girl advice, come to me yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:26

So awesome. What's the best way to get subtle revenge on a workplace jerk without getting caught?

Speaker 2: 54:31

Does that just make you the jerk?

Speaker 1: 54:33

Yeah, this is an easy one, guys. You make friends with building maintenance and you either make sure their trash never gets taken out again or you make their office incredibly hot or incredibly cold. Attack the creature comforts. Those are actually what stresses us out the most at work, and the best way to get someone to quit a job is to move their office somewhere uncomfortable or take away their parking spot. Whoa, I know how to get people to retire. That won't retire. It's parking spot and inconvenience office and a faraway bathroom that's in a weird spot or an office next to the bathroom.

Speaker 1: 55:10

Either too close or too far.

Speaker 3: 55:14

It's so simple and so brilliant. Yeah, what's your biggest pet peeve when it comes to workplace behavior? What's the one thing you're just like? Come on.

Speaker 1: 55:22

Trash talking on social media Slack or email, but will hide from you in person. I hate it when people do that. If you're gonna do it, just own it. Just do it to my face it takes a special kind of spinelessness to do that read about me and then, yeah, not, but work right next to me as you're tweeting about me I know a place that will uh mail that person poo.

Speaker 3: 55:47

I will send you that address. Just trope load if you need that. Okay, if you could give just one piece of advice to someone dealing with a difficult coworker, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 55:57

You are not alone. You're probably the 500th victim of this particular person, so don't feel like you're being isolated. Most jerks actually isolate people and make them feel very alone and that there's something wrong with them. You're not. You are probably the 500th person on the receiving end of this jerk. The best thing you can do is ask around and figure out how many. But I think that sort of feeling stupid and alone is the shame that comes along with being victimized by jerks. That we often don't talk about, especially if you're new at work and you feel like you're being bullied.

Speaker 1: 56:29

It's like back in school. Why am I being bullied? It's not about you, it's about them.

Speaker 3: 56:34

Yeah, it's nice to frame it that way, because you can honestly almost get a little bit more objective about the situation and what you can do to get yourself into a healthier place, if you know that's what this person is like and it's not about you place. If you know that's what this person is like and it's not about you. It's been so lovely to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, this is so fun you guys are awesome.

Speaker 1: 57:00

I love the vibe of this. I feel like I need a drink of prosecco or something in my weird cubicle right now.

Speaker 2: 57:06

Delicious. Next time, next time, come back.

Speaker 3: 57:14

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at friend@yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and, if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends and checkout yourworkfriends.com.

Speaker 2: 57:29

We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

The Workplace Psychological Safety Act

Your Work Friends Podcast: The Workplace Psychological Safety Act with Vicki Courtemanche and Deb Falzoi

Micromanagement. Gaslighting. Constant chaos. Abusive work environments aren’t always loud—but they’re always harmful. In this episode, we’re breaking down what workplace abuse really looks like (hint: it’s not just yelling) and how to name it, navigate it, and end it. Because everyone deserves to work where safety, respect, and sanity aren’t negotiable.

In the US, do you have a right to a safe, psychologically safe workplace? 

Because, right now, there is no legislation protecting employees from toxic work environments. None. 

Join us for an eye-opening discussion with Deb Falzoi and Vicki Courtemanche, founders of the End Workplace Abuse initiative. 

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

The basic idea behind it is that we don't have protections from psychological abuse at work. If this bill passes into law, people will be able to sue their employers and or their individual perpetrators, Because right now, people who suffer from mistreatment at work will go to an employment lawyer and the employment lawyer will simply say I'm sorry this is happening to you, but there's nothing under the law that will protect you in this.

Speaker 2: 0:41

What's going on Mel?

Speaker 3: 0:43

Not much. I went to a fun little estate sale this past weekend and I got like a 1950s black leather clutch that is awesome for $5. So you know win-win. That was good.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Nice. I love estate sales. I love that kind of find right, yeah, yeah, especially all the vintage stuff. It was so well-made, a lot of it.

Speaker 3: 1:07

This thing is solid. I'm like oh, I can throw out my target bag.

Speaker 2: 1:12

That thing's going to last you a lifetime, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:15

Truly, just get a little conditioner on there, it's all good, it's all good.

Speaker 2: 1:19

How about you? Well, enzo got walkie talkies. Yeah, this morning I was washing my face in my bathroom. He's in the living room, which is a couple rooms away, and all of a sudden I hear him having a conversation with somebody else who's not in the house. There's no one else, oh, and so, yeah, learned that his walkie-talkies can pick up other conversations and he can talk to people, so we are now getting rid of said walkie-talkies. That is freaky. I I don't like that at all.

Speaker 3: 1:44

You know it's like some, like trucker named Jim on his CB. What's this?

Speaker 2: 1:50

And I was like what that's us yeah?

Speaker 3: 1:55

Oh God. Anyway, walkie talkies are the best, though.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Well, we had a really rad conversation with two women that are doing some pretty powerful work.

Speaker 3: 2:04

a really rad conversation with two women that are doing some pretty powerful work, absolutely. We met with Deb Falzoi and Vicky Courtemanche, who are two fearless women leading the End Workplace Abuse Initiative across the US, and they are working to introduce the Workplace Psychological Safety Act in 20 states by 2025. And they recently presented this in Massachusetts and Rhode Islands. They're still working to get them passed in those states and they have moved on to several other states as well, so there's a lot in the works here. Ultimately, bottom line is they're looking to establish psychologically safe workplaces and getting this into legislation so that employees have rights to go after employers who don't establish psychologically safe workplaces.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Yeah, I think the big thing here is that legal recourse if psychological abuse is happening and we know this happens. We know things like bullying and mobbing and systemic sabotage happen all the time and right now, for the most part, employees do not have legal recourse if that happens.

Speaker 3: 3:12

No, they don't. And I think you and I spoke about this and I thought you brought up an excellent point, Francesca where this is the new sexual harassment effort. Right, because, as you mentioned, 20 years ago, someone could have said you have a nice ass in the workplace and if you complained, what would the response usually be? Oh, get a sense of humor. And that quickly went away with sexual harassment protections. This just takes our protections to the next level, where you can no longer just abuse people in the workplace and get away with it. There's actual recourse here for the employee and man do? They have a lot of great resources on their website for folks. Yeah, if you're an individual or a team leader or a leader of an organization, we highly recommend you check out their site. We're gonna link to everything in the show notes. They have a ton of resources out there. They're also extremely accessible, so you can email them and reach out to them for consultation. And with that, here is how to end. Well, friends, we're super excited to uh meet today with the co-founders and representatives for end workplace abuse. Uh, and that's deborah falzoy and vicky Kordamanch.

Speaker 3: 4:44

Debra started Dignity Together and she was really focused on helping workers who feel stuck in toxic work cultures and those who are healing from toxic work cultures, and really the goal is to help people take back their life, take back their power. Debra also has a podcast called Screw the Hierarchy and I did listen to a few episodes which I loved, and it highlights personal stories and the impacts of abuse in the workplace. Deb and Vicki co-founded the End Workplace Abuse Organization and they co-authored the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. End Workplace Abuse is an organization leading really a collective movement which is advocating for psychological safety at work. They are citizen lobbyists for protective legislation and policies. They're helping to build leaders who campaign for abuse-free workplaces and they offer coaching and playbooks to do this, which we love, and they're here to collaborate with organizations to help advance workers' rights. So welcome Debra and Vicki. How are you both doing today?

Speaker 1: 5:52

Good Thanks so much for having us.

Speaker 3: 5:55

Yes, thank you Absolutely. Thanks for being here. Tell us a little bit how did end workplace abuse begin?

Speaker 1: 6:04

We both have lived experience with workplace abuse. We've worked on other legislative campaigns and we really wanted to put forth the strongest piece of legislation we could, while also walking the talk around how we organize in terms of creating a really collaborative environment, building as many leaders as we can in this movement, to create a national movement, because there are so many people affected by this who wanted to do something about it, and so we started. We got busy writing the Workplace Psychological Safety Act set up a lot of foundational things like the website. Psychological Safety Act set up a lot of foundational things like the website, talking points, documents, policies, norms to make sure our own culture is healthy and safe for people.

Speaker 4: 6:54

I'll just go a little bit before that, because we both have lived experience around this and she had been bullied in the workplace 10 years before me. I saw her postings on social media and she was actually the first other person that I met who had experienced workplace abuse and I was very sick when I came out. I had a lot of health issues and I wasn't really able to do much of anything. But the work that she was doing really gave me a lot of hope and it was probably about four or five months deep that we finally did meet up in person and as I continued to get better, started doing little things that she would ask and she's always good about that, always making room for everybody to step in and have a voice in this or help in it we kept getting like deeper and deeper, help in it.

Speaker 3: 7:42

We kept getting like deeper and deeper and, as Deb eloquently already said, we found ourselves in this space that we could do it differently than what we saw out there. I love it. It starts with one step right. Coming together and collaboratively is a really powerful story. Tell us more about the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. What is the? I know there's a. The bill is a lot of language, but what is the if you had to explain it to someone like they're five? What does it encompass?

Speaker 1: 8:11

The basic idea behind it is that we don't have protections from psychological abuse at work, so at a baseline it gives people legal recourse for what we call a toxic work environment that a reasonable person would deem toxic. Right now, the major source of protections that people have are anti-discrimination law and, looking at the history of that law, the courts really moved from looking at impact to looking at intent years later and it really watered down the strength of that law so that if you feel like you're the subject of racist or sexist ageist, ableist, any type of behavior that's protected under that law, then you still have to prove the intent of the perpetrator, and that sets a really high bar In looking at the way mistreatment works at work. We wanted to focus on the behaviors that happen and enough of a baseline rather than looking at someone's having a bad day at the office. Enough of a baseline to deem it a toxic work environment by a reasonable person, and that would actually give more protections to for everyone, but especially for women and people of color, who are disproportionately harmed by mistreatment at work.

Speaker 1: 9:42

If this law passes, or this bill passes into law, people will be able to sue their employers and or their individual perpetrators, because right now, people who suffer from mistreatment at work will go to an employment lawyer and the employment lawyer will simply say I'm sorry, this is happening to you, but there's nothing under the law that will protect you in this.

Speaker 1: 10:03

There's nothing to sue against. So we want to put that in place because it is such a prevalent tool that employers use against employees, often for speaking up about this behavior, and that's a huge piece that Vicky brought into. It is what's not just this workplace bullying phenomenon. It's that the employers at their level are ignoring these situations or retaliating against people because they want to avoid liability. So that's this and that's really the level where a lot of people feel betrayed by. We really focused, honed in on that aspect of it, because there's nobody holding the employers accountable for holding the bullies accountable. That's a major piece of the playbook that we thought was missing from not just other pieces of legislation, but from the messaging that really resonates with people to build this movement.

Speaker 2: 11:03

We do have anti-discrimination, and then there's this act as well. Can you give an example of where the laws that are in place now aren't cutting it for people that are bullying? For example, if someone's getting bullied by their manager, is that not covered by anti-discrimination right now?

Speaker 1: 11:23

It isn't, unless the person can prove that the reason for their mistreatment is because they're a member of a protected class, because they're of a certain race or because they're a woman or that sort of thing. The best example I can really give is if a bully is bullying everyone equally, then when everyone's suffering from harm, then there's really distinguished about even somebody in a protected class, about the way that they're being mistreated. I've heard people say, if you're like an equal opportunity jerk, like there's no legal recourse for that because the target's not being singled out because of their membership in a protected class.

Speaker 2: 12:07

It's interesting because we see this a lot, especially sometimes at the executive level. People are a equal opportunity jerk and we get the well, that's just working with executives. That's just what this is. This is the type of behavior that they have and it's like no, this is actually not healthy at all and not constructive at all, and right now, there's no legal recourse for that.

Speaker 4: 12:28

Yeah, because the norm, like you said, it's what people have just accepted nowadays that that's how people are going to act at that level.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Yeah, and we really want to implicate. You know people go to HR to report these situations often, but HR also often gets bullied because by the people they're reporting to. So this is really often a directive from the very top down, usually a culture issue, that there is that discriminatory impact on people who aren't in power typically. Basically.

Speaker 4: 13:01

I'd just like to add to we were very intentional when we used the terminology psychological safety, because we were trying to go at it a different way, because passing the law is still not even our greatest obstacle. Raising public awareness is still our greatest obstacle. So when you say workplace bullying, no one knows what you mean by that. They don't know what you really mean by that. They conjure up whatever they want in their mind from their own experience, but they don't understand really that it's a process of dehumanization and it's a process of traumatization. So we were very intentional because, as I said, we have the two bars. We're trying to pass law, but we're also trying to raise public awareness and that still is almost in the forefront. But when we use the term psychological abuse and psychological safety, that has resonated with people. Now everyone knows what we're talking about. Everyone understands what that is. It's taken off.

Speaker 3: 14:03

That's a great segue into my next question. Vicki, on the website I noticed you talk about an abuser playbook. What does it look like?

Speaker 1: 14:13

I think too, in terms of the playbook, what we're seeing is a lot of high performers affected by this. They pose a threat to someone in power who wants to reinforce their own power and control. Performer is weakened is very typical tactics for abuse, like false accusations, sabotage, verbal abuse. We see outright lies in performance reviews. We see withholding information from people, overloading unreasonably heavy workloads all sorts of different tactics that are designed by people in power because that power differential is so important to weaken their target, to dim their flame, basically. And so when the person starts to catch on and starts to feel devalued, a lot of times they internalize what's happening to them and so they end up subscribing to the narrative until they really catch on that these things are happening. They start to notice that they're feeling so devalued and demeaned all the time, and then when they finally go to report it to a higher up or HR, depending on who the perpetrator is if they go to their own boss or if the perpetrator is their boss that's when that sort of second level of betrayal can kick in and they realize the process just gets dragged out. You think that the company is going to care that there's some form of mistreatment happening and that it's in the way of their bottom line. But really oftentimes we see investigations never happening or they're inadequate investigations and then people try legal recourse and realize that the whole society isn't on their side because there's no law against this behavior which basically tells them the harm done to them is okay. It just adds layer upon layer of betrayal. It can be really hard. A lot of these ways of harming people can be done behind closed doors. It can be done through gossip and sabotage that people don't have any ideas happening until months, weeks or months later. So it can be really hard to see.

Speaker 1: 16:35

A lot of times, just sensing that the perpetrator has these power and control issues and that they're trying to reinforce that at every turn, instead of what I think of as a healthy relationship with a boss is like trying to flatten that hierarchy as much as possible and being a support and trying to figure out what their subordinates need.

Speaker 1: 17:03

There is that heavy layer of power and control with this. So I think when people start to see that for what it is and realize I know in my situation, when I saw that happening, my response was internalizing it and thinking well, I have to try harder then. And that really was the opposite of what going to help me, because that threatened the bully more. The abuse ramped up and had I been able to catch it more quickly, I think I would have been able to detach from it more easily and just say, okay, may have still gone to HR, may have still gone to the head doing the right thing, but the typical response is avoiding liability. That education piece is huge as to what is likely to happen, given the power structures and the system that the people in power have designed to maintain their own power.

Speaker 3: 18:35

So how can employees, or even employers, recognize that abuse is happening in the workplace? What do they need to look out for?

Speaker 1: 18:43

So when we just define even just basic psychological abuse, we're talking about a violation of an employee's inherent basic right to dignity. So this is severe or pervasive infliction of toxic or unethical words and or actions, whether they're intentional or unintentional, direct or indirect. These can also be omissions. They're directed in terms of creating the toxic work environment Bullying we call it employee to employee interpersonal abuse.

Speaker 4: 19:15

As Deb said, that was a big part of what we went after in the playbook and in the legislation was holding the employer accountable, and we use the word mobbing and what we mean by that is organizational bullying, so it's more the employer, it's representative employees to the employee. I've since learned, thanks to Jen Fraser who wrote the Bully Brain, another word and I use it more often now, and it's institutional complicity. That's good. Now that is clearer than mobbing. So we're learning as we go and I'm trying to use that terminology.

Speaker 1: 19:57

And then we see sabotage as a type of bullying. There's all sorts of different ways to even define bullying, but also to categorize types of bullying. But sabotage we've bucketed into things that are types of exclusion, so things like excluded from meetings and conversations that you should be involved with. This could be timely access to resources, information that you need to do your job, assignment of work. We've seen situations where people are not given information that they need to do work they've been assigned to, and then they get reprimanded for not completing the work, so they're basically being set up to fail. Unfairness falls into this. We talk about gaslighting, which is where the narrative gets twisted, so you believe you were made to be the problem. I'll call this crazy making too, where this can be micromanaging and inconsistent complying with rules. It could be a demotion or threatening of job loss without any cause. Inaccurate performance reviews that's a big one, especially when new management comes in and they want to hire their own people. They'll just start a paper trail, but it won't be accurate in order to push out the employee. It could be discounting work, taking credit for work, blocking requests for needed training or leave, increasing responsibilities without giving authority to complete the responsibilities, removing responsibilities with no explanation, unreasonably heavy workloads, underwork, consistently to the point where somebody feels useless, so they're not doing what they were promised would be they would be doing in that role. Unrealistic deadlines We've heard a lot of stories about people essentially like being set up to fail where they're given these ridiculously unrealistic deadlines that they can't meet. Favoritism is involved with this, where a lot of people have this separate set of rules because they're not in the in crowd. Vague reviews, accusations without any backup. We've heard of people having their equipment tampered with, their personal belongings tampered with, and then the last part of this is lack of clarity. So it can be really vague directions, deception around work, expectations, deadlines, reprimands without any ways to improve. Again, this isn't a bad day at the office. This is like the norm of how expectations are set and sort of thing. Like vicky said too.

Speaker 1: 22:46

When it comes to the bullying and the mobbing, the, a lot of people talk about mobbing as like group bullying essentially, and that can be part of the playbook too, where it starts with one-on-one person in power, person, a lesser role, and then that person in power creates this false narrative behind the scenes and gets other people to join into that false narrative, then a lot of times people side with that power out of fear of losing their own job.

Speaker 1: 23:19

And then, gradually too, the target can just feel so isolated, have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, but they're characterized in a way that they have no idea about and it's completely opposite of how they feel, believe that they're performing, or at least were performing, and then that's when that mobbing piece, as we're defining it with the institutional complicity it often escalates to that, because people feel trapped. They have no idea what to do, where to go, who will help them. And so when HR is training on anti-discrimination law and encouraging reports of mistreatment, they believe that going to HR will be the solution. But oftentimes HR will just be looking to see if there's any sort of valid complaint, if there's a legal liability, and they'll do some sort of risk assessment and decide should we just push this person out and avoid the liability? How much of a risk does this person pose?

Speaker 2: 24:23

Which is one of the reasons why you need a law like this right, because HR is going to go to the law, they're going to go to A what is legal, and then what's the liability for the organization, which is why you need this as a law, because if it's not, it's very gray. It can be very gray for HR. I have a question, though, about the bobbing piece, which is does it have to be, or even the bullying, or even the sabotage, does it have to be somebody in power?

Speaker 1: 24:50

Because I've seen this peer to peer, I've seen this as team members doing it to their leader. It can be lateral bullying and it can be upward bullying too. I think the most common is that downward bullying, but it can happen from any direction. I've heard of situations in all of those ways and to your point earlier too, I was going to say we have heard HR people say we need a tool, a law, to be able to hold these bullies accountable. So I think it will benefit HR to have this tool to actually do something about the bullying.

Speaker 4: 25:33

Their profession has really been called out this phenomenon, because the statistics say that at least 71% of our businesses don't do the right thing when this happens. So there's a lot of people out there who are either uncomfortable doing what they're told to do or there's lots of people out there who have left HR because they won't do that. It's sad because they're the flying monkeys of this. They're the ones who come out and make it happen. We pull back the layer even further than HR. We point to the legal department, whoever that legal head is. They are and this is funny, francesca, because you're saying they want a law, but really what they're doing is skirting the law by doing this. I've talked about this even if this law is passed, it's going to be like whack-a-mole with them, like they're going to pop up and try to do something else, because that's the way the legal departments function. Culture and operationalize HR will need to fundamentally shift.

Speaker 2: 26:45

There's so much culture change that will need to happen in organizations for organizations to be healthy enough for not having this happen. And I think back to like when anti-sexual harassment rolled out. I mean, sitting in our seats right now. No way in hell would you ever think that telling your administrative assistant that they have a nice ass is okay. That was okay 20 years ago, quite honestly. And now it's not. And we're still in this realm right now with bullying, with sabotage, with mobbingbing, where this stuff is still culturally, in a lot of places, tolerated. Okay, organizations are complicit.

Speaker 1: 27:25

I'm excited by this and then I also think it is a massive sea change, very similar to what sexual harassment was yeah, in fact, we try to model the bill on sexual harassment law, saying that like it's the work environment, like that hostile they're. They call it a hostile work environment, we're calling it toxic. It's the baseline and people don't need to prove psychological injury. But yeah, it is. It is going to be gradually this huge shift for employers and their work cultures.

Speaker 2: 27:59

I'm curious about with what you both are working on. Obviously you've done a tremendous amount to push this forward. What are some of the priority hot button issues that you're working on within the next three months? What's hot for you right now?

Speaker 1: 28:16

I mean, one of the biggest things is a Rhode Island the bill in Rhode Island. So we have two active bills, one in Massachusetts and one in Rhode Island, and we have just a couple more months in the session in Rhode Island. It just passed the Senate Labor Committee, it's on to a vote in the Senate floor, it'll move to the House Labor Committee and we're mobilizing people getting the message out there to take action, to write the house labor committee. So that's our biggest priority. We're still in the early days of even having formed our national teams and our teams of bill directors. We have about 20 new states that are working on getting legislation introduced in 2025. We're going to do another training to get more people on board. It's super energizing. Just the educational piece alone of this is huge and just the creativity coming out, the connections and coalition building people are doing.

Speaker 4: 29:19

If this passes in Rhode Island, this would be our first win of a law. We just have to have that under our belt. I can't tell you how many other legislators we've watched hearings around the country, and the first thing that the chairs ask is has this passed anyplace else? So we can't wait to say yes.

Speaker 1: 30:00

I want to ask, not if but when this gets passed in Rhode Island and when momentum picks up, what will employees be able to do? The big thing is to sue their employer for mistreatment that meets that baseline standard. Right now they don't have the ability to do that. It's not going to be this wave of the magic wand, like we've seen. Obviously, sexual harassment is still really prevalent, despite there being a lot against it. But the other piece is this is really about prevention. So the bill actually has a lot of language around what the employer can do to minimize their own liability from training and having a policy, which we know doesn't work in and of itself, but that as a start, in terms of trying to prevent this behavior, to having thorough investigations and then, when they do find that there was bullying happening, coaching, counseling, discipline. We want there to be an adequate addressing of this issue from start to finish, from educating and monitoring the work environment to actually holding bullies accountable.

Speaker 3: 31:04

You talk a lot about what organizations can do in terms of prevention, but what can team leaders do today? What can just teammates do today to help with that prevention in the workplace or be advocates for others if they're not the victim of it, but see it happening? What can they be doing?

Speaker 1: 31:24

It's a really tough situation for bystanders to be in because pretty much stuck between siding with the abuser and siding with the target, and if that abuser is their boss, then putting themselves in a situation to have to be the next target. Basically, we encourage people to speak out, but we know that there's risk, a lot of risk, in doing that. So I think even just telling the target, even private I saw this happen to you. I like to validate it for them and knowledge that they were harmed and that they're a human being and harm wasn't okay To just be there for set goals, help people understand that the vision and mission and the goals of their unit, even if there's a lot of toxic behavior coming down from the top.

Speaker 1: 32:33

What's a tough position for a manager to be in dealing with that and trying to change the culture of their own department. But I think that's the power that they have. How do you treat people as workers, as though they're adults and that they can control their jobs and that they have social support? And I think everything that we're supporting, including the Workplace Psychological Safety Act, just all goes back to that, in that if managers treat their subordinates like people, then not only will they be healthier, but their bottom lines will actually increase. I think the bottom line is just bringing the humanity back to the workplace, or to the workplace in the first place.

Speaker 3: 33:21

This has been just really wonderful and appreciate all of the tips and insights.

Speaker 4: 33:27

I just want to say thank you for this space because this is raising public awareness. So every time that this gets put out there on a podcast, or someone reposts the social media or wants to submit written testimony, it all counts.

Speaker 1: 33:44

One of the biggest parts of this work is that we're giving people hope who are otherwise feeling so trapped in what they're experiencing. It's important for people to know there is hope out there. We're both living proof that there is happiness on the other side of all of this and, with support and taking their own voices back, they can get there too, and collectively, no matter what happens. If we're speaking out together, then we're taking a stand for ourselves, and I think that's huge.

Speaker 3: 34:18

Love it Well. Thank you both so much for being here with us today. Appreciate you, Thank you.

Speaker 2: 34:23

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

The Human Debt of Tech at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Human Debt with Duena Blomstrom

Humans aren’t just resources…

But we’ve been treating them like they are. We sat down with Duena Blomstrom, author and Human Debt expert, to unpack what happens when companies prioritize speed, systems, and output over emotional wellbeing—and how to fix it. If your workplace is running on burnout, blurred boundaries, and broken trust, this conversation is the reset you didn’t know you needed.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

I'm wondering if you can explain it to our listeners like a five-year-old. What is human debt?

Speaker 2: 0:07

To five-year-olds it would be difficult because they would have to assume that the enterprise is an honest place where good things should have happened. So I can't do that, but I can explain it to a 35-year-old.

Speaker 1: 0:19

Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. What's going on, mel, hey, hey, how's it going?

Speaker 3: 0:39

It's good. It's good. I cannot believe we are almost a month away from fall.

Speaker 1: 0:45

I know we are 40 days left of summer, though Plenty of time. Did you get your beach day in? Not a day.

Speaker 3: 0:53

I did get two hours, but Robbie and I are planning a trip to Block Island, which, for those of you who don't know, is off the coast of Rhode Island. It's gorgeous, and that will be our beach day, hopefully at the end of this month. How about you? Very nice, very nice.

Speaker 1: 1:09

We are taking a trip up to Mount Rainier, which, yeah, I don't know if anyone else does this. We've lived in Portland for about four years now and I looked at a map the other day and was like wow, mount St Helens is like an hour and a half away, never been. Was like wow, mount.

Speaker 1: 1:24

St Helens is like an hour and a half away. Never been right. Mount Rainier, super close like these, beautiful, you know experiences and we're just like we want to go to JCrew this weekend. So like, yeah, we are. So we rented like a cool cabin. The Airbnb market around Mountain Towns is just stunning. I mean funny. Also, you can you can rent someone's trailer, you can rent a yurt, you can rent, you know, a cabin that looks like it's totally set up to be instagrammable, that kind of stuff I've always wanted to stay in a yurt.

Speaker 3: 1:54

I don't know what it is, I'm like same such a fun tent I'm not a camping person.

Speaker 1: 2:00

I love to hike and be outdoors and I want to be in a room with a whack, yeah a yurt is the nice middle ground.

Speaker 3: 2:06

It's like a nice middle ground between a tent and a house.

Speaker 1: 2:10

Yeah, yeah. Do you think you could just buy a yurt on Amazon? You could buy anything on Amazon.

Speaker 3: 2:15

I know, like Timu, I've not ordered anything from Timu, have you?

Speaker 1: 2:19

No, but I really want to just to see what comes. I do too.

Speaker 3: 2:23

You know what it makes me wonder. I have the funniest story when my niece was going through this donut obsession for like ever, as you do, as you do, and I saw this donut chair on Amazon and I thought it was like a person-sized donut chair and then she got it for her birthday and it was a chair for her cell phone. So I imagine this shopping experience at Timo is kind of like me not paying attention to the dimensions of her donut chair.

Speaker 1: 2:51

That's why I want it. That's why I want it. Like, did you just spend $150 on a thing for yourself?

Speaker 3: 2:55

Yeah, it was like the dumbest thing ever, yeah, oh that's funny, god, I love shit like that. Yeah, I'm a big fan.

Speaker 1: 3:02

Mystery packages, mystery packages. Aren't you a big fan of, like the mystery bags, like $5, what's in the bag. It could be anything Like such a sucker for that Huge.

Speaker 3: 3:12

Where do people get those? You know like those mail bins, like unclaimed mail, and then they just buy an entire pallet.

Speaker 1: 3:25

I want to in on a palette with you Nordstrom returns, amazon returns. What do you get? What are you going to get? Yeah, oh, we got to do this. Yeah, when we make our first million, we'll get a palette.

Speaker 3: 3:31

We'll do a live unboxing.

Speaker 1: 3:35

It's irregular jeans. We have 45 packs of irregular jeans. These are our dreams $501 sunglasses. Yes, oh God, I love every minute of it. Well, no, we talked to someone super duper cool this summer.

Speaker 3: 3:53

Oh, yes, duena, I love her. Yeah, yeah, tell us about Duena doing things that don't take care of their people and their employees. And her whole discussion was on how to recognize if you have human debt. Every organization, just like tech debt, has human debt, and she was addressing ways that you can recognize it and ways that you can address it. It's a really interesting concept that we need to start talking about more. And she's done a million other things. She has a podcast called Mero Spicy at Work Tech, not People is a book that she's written. She's a keynote speaker. She's just an overall powerhouse.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Talk about a renaissance woman that's out there just doing good.

Speaker 3: 4:55

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:56

And has done good too. Right, human debt is one of those things where, if you don't know the term, when you have her explain what it is, what happened to me is like oh, I have felt this, I know exactly what this is, when you feel like the reciprocity and the relationship with your organization is off balance massively. I loved talking about what it looks like and feels like with her, but also, and probably most importantly, what can we do about it as organizations and, most importantly, as individuals? Because it starts with us one-on-one.

Speaker 3: 5:30

One-on-one we're humans at the end of the day, we're humans. I'm only human. Sorry for the woo-woo everyone. That's who we are. I love everything about this. She's just fantastic. So we hope that you get a lot out of this episode, folks, and let us know what you think. Here's to one-off Welcome friends.

Speaker 3: 6:14

We are super excited to welcome Dwayna Blomstrom. She is the author of Emotional Banking, people Before Tech, the Importance of Psychological Safety and Teamwork in the Digital Age and an upcoming book called Tech-Led Culture. She is also an international keynote speaker, the co-founder of Tech-Led Culture People, not Tech companies that are really offering a human work platform, providing a framework to usher in a new tech-led culture of humanity in the workplace. She is one of the top voices on LinkedIn. She has an amazing newsletter that I follow the Future of Agile, as well as Chasing Psychological Safety. She's also a podcaster, like us. She's the co-host of NeuroSpicy at Work, which I'm excited to listen to.

Speaker 3: 6:58

The Secret Society of Human Work Advocates the People in Tech podcast, tech-led Culture and, married to Tech Duenna, that's a lot. So we just want to say wow, you've accomplished quite a great deal in influencing the working world in general in a very positive way. I love that you're calling out how we need to prioritize humanity in the workplace. Tell us, how did you get started in this space? What really inspired you to get started in this space?

Speaker 2: 7:29

Oh, only that. Let's see, that's an easy one to start with. We should have started with the harder ones. I don't think I've had any kind of inspiration. I didn't want to get started in this space at all. I don't know really many people that woke up going. I shall be in this space. So I think, like all of us, I just happened into it. I happened to see what looked to me like vast injustices and I had to do something about them.

Speaker 2: 7:56

I don't think I ever chose anything and I don't know if I might ask you what is this path we're talking about? What exactly have I chosen? Because if you ask me, none of the things have really been the ones that I've necessarily went after, but the things that have happened to me. I hear this a lot from other people that are AUADHD and have worked in the business world. I feel like careers have never been designed. We just fell where we fell and then we put all of our passion into something, learned all of the things, possibly got bored with that particular topic and moved on to the next.

Speaker 2: 8:32

Industry Happened to me a couple of times. I would say I started in psychology, obviously, but then I very quickly moved into business and did kind of technology and got excited when the internet boomed, when the financial technology side of things boomed, and learned everything there was to learn about it. But then the more I I put my head into it, the more I realized these are bigger human issues and I had to get my head out of the small holes. I was so pleased tinkering in, like every other autistic person that I have employed in my life not everybody else and yeah, I didn't choose anything. It's become a vocation, more than a day-to-day nine-to-five.

Speaker 3: 9:15

Yeah, that makes sense. I can totally relate. Francesca and I often talk about how we fell into our roles and then you just become the expert while you're doing it and quickly get bored and move on to the next. What's the next thing? So that makes total sense to me.

Speaker 2: 9:30

No one I don't believe wakes up at five and goes. I desperately want to be the uh back-end developer of apis. It's not a life-saving. It's very hard to attach the meaning to it, but we find other things at work that do that and I don't think there's anyone in the workplace that's not hundred thousand percent burning for something.

Speaker 1: 9:54

It's an interesting. People feel that. They feel that either that line between I'm not passionate about my work, but I'm doing this for the money and I'm doing this to bring home a paycheck, or they're burning out or they're feeling all of the impacts of the way that organizations are set up. And one of the concepts you talk about is human debt, and I love that. I'm wondering if you can explain it to our listeners like a five-year-old. What is human debt?

Speaker 2: 10:24

like a five-year-old. What is human debt To five-year-olds? It would be difficult because they would have to assume that the enterprise is an honest place where good things should have happened. So I can't do that, but I can explain it to a 35-year-old.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Let's do it, let's do it and there's probably different explanations to a 25-year-old, a 35-year-old, a 55-year-old and so on, but for everyone we should have done right. As employers, we should have done a set of things. As organizations, we should have come to the table in a certain fashion when we offer whatever it is that we offer in this contract of work, and those things haven't happened. So I'll expand in a second. It's every time that the organization hasn't done the things that they should have done and by those taking care of their employees in monetary and emotional fashion. So, for instance, all the things that most organizations will tell you they have but they don't really have. All of your failed dni programs. All of your stages of leadership with no explanation. All of the times when they should have been respectful to the conversation and the communication and never happened. All of the times when we promised our people a promotion and then we forgot, as if it never really was going to materialize anyways. All of the times when we presided over unpleasant and bullish behaviors, because think of a wrong in the workplace and think how it has never been addressed and think that will become your debt as an organization, because the more of these instances that you have as an organization where you have failed your people. Most of these are not going to be recorded anywhere, but they will exist in something like the, and I never thought about it until right now, but it's almost the antithesis of culture. It's an anti-culture vessel in the back of everyone's mind going. These motherfuckers have effed other people up. It may not have been me, but it has happened here. You know.

Speaker 2: 12:35

What happens is you then sit on an organization that has a debt and you can decide to pay it off and start treating your people better, figure out what they hate you for and when, and then make them love you again, or you can decide to ignore it, which is the case for a vast majority of most enterprises today. You can pretend it's not a problem. You can better your retention programs instead or put more money in position. I don't know what else we're doing than that, if I'm honest. So if you as an organization decide to not pay off this human debt, what happens eventually is that you become unviable. I believe that they will not be around. I'm not saying we should never get debt, right? If I'm talking to particularly your listeners must be Americans. You're fine with that. Question is when do we start paying this off?

Speaker 1: 13:23

Yeah, it was super fair. When I was growing up, my parents always talked about this idea of reciprocity and relationships. Right, Even on a one-to-one level. You are going to have moments where you're going to withdraw from the emotional bank account and you're going to have moments where you're going to have to deposit in the emotional bank account, and sometimes it's going to be uneven, but ideally, in the long arc, you have a balanced bank account. And this is one of these concepts where I feel like this happens on an individual level To your very good point. It happens on an organizational level and you feel it. You feel it, that's right.

Speaker 2: 13:57

Yeah, everyone knows it Exactly that I'm saying and what you said, that when you said you feel it. We know what we're all about, everyone knows. And it's that email we didn't answer. It's that person. We told them to have themselves in a corner because they weren't their fault, it was the bloody system or whatever. It's that time when we didn't keep a promise. It's that time when we didn't help a friend or we let them fall on a sword, becoming debts that you carry. As a human, workplace should care about those bits, because I'm not a different human, but outside of that, we're not entities that exist. Why would the workplace as well that claims it has regulated method in which it will not, if you over, do that to you is my question. So I'm on a work path with human debt in general, but the one at work is just shameful if you ask me I am curious about, on an organizational level, what are they supposed to do?

Speaker 2: 14:56

Fair question. It's massive. What is anyone supposed to do?

Speaker 1: 14:59

I don't know. Yeah, be cooler, be a nicer person. I don't know. Don't be a dick.

Speaker 2: 15:04

I'm a dick. That is the answer. But regulating against dickery is not the answer. Making people genuinely not biddicks is probably the answer. And if they genuinely wanted to do something, then there would be no employee that wasn't through a level of Communist Party from 1955, re-education camps of what the bloody hell an emotion is, because that's the level we need to get our leadership through before we will be able to engage with this very new generation that speaks emotions like that.

Speaker 2: 15:37

And if you are in a leadership position or you are engaged in teamwork and you haven't had it that to me doesn't recommend you to exist in the workplace at all, because what they're using, and what we're all using, is this lack of education to say I don't quite know, we don't quite engage like that at work. So, in between the armor of professionalism and this insanity of I don't know much about emotions I'm not a psychologist how am I supposed to engage any better? What happens is we cannot communicate and we cannot collaborate at work and we sure as fuck cannot lead anybody. That's the problem we have. If you're losing money anywhere the workplace you're losing on the fuckers you're keeping who are lying. You don't have emotions. If we're going to keep them. We can't just flush these people out.

Speaker 2: 16:22

I remember starting in the business world and everyone telling me to not worry in banking. We don't need to change all the systems In time, we'll just replace them with the people and everything. Come on, these guys only have one more board meeting. The amount of times I heard that you'd be surprised. That's not the way to be doing life. I am not supposed to wait anyone out to die because it's uncomfortable for me to speak about real things.

Speaker 1: 16:46

We hear it all the time, though All the time. He's not going anywhere. Blah, blah, blah, Like it happens all the time.

Speaker 2: 16:53

But people are using it as excuses.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Yeah, they absolutely are.

Speaker 1: 16:57

What's fascinating about this, though, is that, when you look at all of the research about great leadership, great team dynamics, innovation, engagement, it harkens on those things that people are emotionally intelligent, that they do make space for things like psychological safety, like that they understand their own limitations, and all of those things make for great performance, but it also means that you need to get your own shit together. Do you understand how you operate? Do you understand where your pitfalls are? Do you understand how you need to flex for your team? And vice versa? I think our leaders in organizations that grew up with my joke is, they grew up with this like Shackleton view of leadership, which is I'm strong, I have no emotions, I'm going to just push my way through, as opposed to really thinking about what works to lead people through what we're going through, what we're about to go through.

Speaker 2: 17:52

And.

Speaker 1: 17:52

I know Mel's probably so sick of hearing me say this, but there is not a person on the planet that has led through what we're going through and what we're about to go through. When you think about the speed of business, when you think about AI the amount of wars happening cultural and on the ground. When you think about AI, the amount of wars happening cultural and on the ground it's too much for a lot of people and to deny your humanity in that versus to lean into it, is not the right move.

Speaker 2: 18:15

But we have done it in the workplace for the last X amount of years. We need such a blank slate reset. You asked me earlier what needs to happen. What needs to happen is everyone needs to shut down, come back with a new plan. That's what needs to happen.

Speaker 3: 18:29

In addition to blowing up the workplace, people need to blow up the concept of what work means in their life. Right, there's a reset that needs to happen on a personal level as well as the organizational level.

Speaker 2: 18:43

You hit the nail on the head Disconnect between what work can and is and should be. It's not even a genuine, open conversation. Big concepts are up in the air. Who am I? What is work? What is the point of me as a human? What if your worth as a human is never about how much money you make?

Speaker 2: 19:01

What if we start remunerating people on being emotionally intelligent or remunerating people on being kind intelligent or remunerating people on being kind or taking up someone else's work for a second instead, because we haven't taught them the right things, in particular men, the same men that we are upset at.

Speaker 2: 19:17

How very dare they be a shithead and whatever shit. We put them there and we said all you need to do is tell me what to do and then I will execute on it. And no, that isn't, isn't the ask? The ask is that you check yourself, that you sit with being uncomfortable, that you understand your emotions, that you communicate efficiently, that you care about me. Those are the asks. With that said, there are companies out there, there are enterprises out there, there are combinations of people out there and groups that have gathered in a way that allow them to see each other, that allow them to get psychological safety to be real teams to go real fast, and those are the people that will get us out of the workplace if we don't want to also match them, not AI or anybody else. So literally, being a human is the only USB we're going to be asked to bring.

Speaker 3: 20:07

Yeah, we don't have anything if we don't have our humanity. We just talked about AI, and one thing we do know is that maintaining our humanity and bringing our full human selves is going to be more important than anything. So you talk a lot about tech debt. What is tech debt?

Speaker 2: 20:34

That's easier when you write code, when you're heart of heart as a programmer. That you could have potentially written it a little bit better is the only way to put it. You could have tested it more or you could have double checked something. But what has been prized in the software development world has always been speed of delivery. So the first answer you get off of Google is the one you get in. I'm joking, it's not quite that easy, but it takes a little bit more than that to be a programmer, but not a whole lot more, let me tell you.

Speaker 2: 21:01

That said, it's a natural thing to incur technical debt as you write, because if you write code fast, some of it won't work, some of it will get old, some of it will need a rewrite. What happens when you have a lot of this code that's not brilliant accumulating, is that you have to do a full rewrite of your code base, and anyone in technology knows that's the kiss of death for any CTO or any team attempting to exist. So you don't want to get to a place where you have to throw away everything you've written. When it comes to tech debt, it comes to bite you and your system stops working if you don't start fixing it. So the same way that they're supposed to be going back and fixing bits and pieces of that tech debt where it will make sense, so that the entire thing doesn't crash, that is how I'm saying we should be doing it in terms of human debt in the enterprise and let's start in the emotional intelligence, because it is an emergency. I I was desperately afraid of this in the ending of all my books. If we are to take a leaflet from the tech industry, we'll have to change culture everywhere else, because in the tech industry, by hook or by crook, we've invented this crap called agile, and this crap called agile means many things to many people, but what it essentially means is that you have some autonomy and you have some goodwill. That's what it means, and when you have those two things, you do things with other people. That's literally all that it means.

Speaker 2: 22:20

And because you cannot make technology as an individual contributor anymore, they have had to produce the thing. Let me tell you where else it didn't wasn't needed. Everywhere else, because the workplace is still made of a hundred billion individual contributors. So in the technology side, if you don't collaborate, you don't end up with any code. If you don't do the pair programming. You don't have the thing that's being paired properly On the other side. If your workplace is horrible and your workmate is an asshole, you still do it. You still show up to not take any blame for anything and to be the hero and to deliver the project. We have workplaces that are carried by millions of desperate, adulting individual contributors. The workplace doesn't exist. The workplace and the business place is a lie. We don't have that. We just have some conventions that we are happy to avail ourselves of for different reasons. So those are the ones we need to get to, because they are not something to be proud of to leave the next generation.

Speaker 2: 23:24

You feel it in the ether, what we hear from folks who are still in corporate, consistently it's just like I know that the people that are blessed and still in and for a long while it was they're going to be out, weren't they? But now I'm telling you that the out is out. These people are the outliners now, the people that are convinced that what existed come back. The same exact structure, the same exact. The same exact structure, the same exact conversation, the same exact fears of being authentic. No one's going to notice I don't quite understand anything. No one's going to notice I'm not quite engaging humanly properly. That's not happening anymore and I am genuinely worried for anyone who thinks we're wrong and we'll all calm down.

Speaker 3: 24:03

It won't. It feels like it's just going to amp up. I'd love to hear, especially with all this talk of AI. I'm wondering what your point of view is on how employers and employees, during this change, can get ahead of the human debt side of things. What can they do? Because we know the tech change is here and increasing. How can they get ahead of that human debt when it does start?

Speaker 2: 24:26

happening. I want to believe that, as society, we'll be at the place that we can go. Not everybody needs to show up to work, and not everyone needs to have a nine to five job. Everyone else can go read or make paintings. There is no need for jobs to be created. We don't need to fear AI. If AI shows up and AI takes all our jobs, that's brilliant. Then we all can lazy about. That's not going to, unfortunately, happen in our lifetime. It would be nice, it would be great, but not going to happen. So what will happen is, though no one will be employable if you don't bring yourself to work every day.

Speaker 2: 25:05

I remember when I was in college, I wrote a thesis on always being on, and I was like, so proud of myself. All you need to do is always being on, and I was like, so proud of myself. All you need to do is always be on, and then you'll be so focused and so in flow. Everything will be fine, literally. I remember my professor going God, this is not. This is not going to work. You're going to have to go back to the drawing board because you're describing ADHD. Can you go back home and calm down? But so I'm not saying that everyone's going to like me, right, not everyone can be on, but you're like don't mask a hundred percent, you can't mask forever exactly that.

Speaker 2: 25:40

Yeah, so when we say mask, we mean in the workplace in particular. When we say it in in a private fashion, we just mean that those of us that are not neurotypical spend our entire lives attempting to be like the neurotypicals. Possibly, if you ask me, we should just ask for the neurotypicals to try more to be like us. But that's just me. But we do that. We attempt to pretend we are neurotypical.

Speaker 2: 26:05

But that happens at work as well, when people mask their true emotion and they employ a process called impression management, which is essentially attempting to appear in a certain fashion in front of your peers. But when you do that, you are not authentic, you are not genuinely giving your opinion. You are are attempting to control the narrative in a fashion that will not help a team function, so it's not a desirable behavior. When you're attempting to create a team dynamic, it's really not a desirable behavior in any fashion other than when people want to wear pink. It's the only impression management I'm fine with is for pretty. Anything else is not for pretty and it's for hiding. Should not exist either in personal or workplaces, simply because it makes our lives harder and it makes other people suffer.

Speaker 3: 26:58

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I'm so happy to hear the discussions had started around bringing your authentic self to work and workplaces trying to really create spaces where that's okay. No one's getting it 100%, but the fact that some workplaces are even trying to do that and foster that is so incredibly important.

Speaker 2: 27:22

So it's good to see, I say this a lot the organizations that do have psychological safety are not the organizations that are chasing it. They're the organizations that have built it to begin with and then have guarded it. Guarding it is an everyday work. Let's be honest. The work that is needed of humans at work is the same work that's needed of us every day, with our spouses, with our children, with our parents, with our friends. The same work. Be honest, be kind, be always putting yourself into somebody else's shoes. Same way. Does anyone want to do it, even at home? No, we're equals to our own family. Why would we extend that kind of kindness to strangers at work? So, the more that the world implodes, the more that we are afraid we're dying, the more that we are in defense mode, the less psychological, the less a team, the less a workplace the less there's any point to this conversation.

Speaker 1: 28:19

I think about this a lot. I've been on a journey the last several months around how do I want to reimagine my life and how I live my life? One of the North Stars is am I doing this out of love and to be a better version of myself for other people, for myself? Or am I doing this out of ego? And this idea of this constant pull of? Is this out of love or is this out of ego? And sometimes you want to do things out of ego. I get that. But for the most part I'm trying really hard to have a very simple vision of do it out of love, even if it doesn't make sense, even if it's not good for my career. It's out of love Because at this point I don't know what else to do, and as I'm listening to you when I'm feeling like, is that kind of the mantra that we all need to be? Not that I, that's all.

Speaker 2: 29:00

That's all. That's all and it's. They should have started with what you started and they should end with what you're ending now, which is what when you started, you explained you there's reciprocity in there's a rupture and repair and there's a reciprocity, and when you fuck people up, you then have to come back up and put more in that. That's how you do repair. You put more that coin from bloody dr phil's jar, if no one knows any other reference, you would remember dr phil's love jar, if nothing else. Or some people might remember vick's from the Orange County Housewives they all had the love jar like that. Have a fucking love jar and stop taking shit out of it instead of putting crap into it, because you'll fuck up your life and your work life.

Speaker 2: 29:42

I think it's the easiest advice, but we all know that it reduces all the way to don't be a dick, the method to not be a dick, I think, and to minimize those instances when you go for the ego instead of the love. I don't know if it's any good, but it's an intense daily pressure. I will tell you that these days I just have to go. What do I think is the right thing to do? What do I genuinely believe is the right thing to do and, like you say, you won't always do it. Sometimes you'll be like, fuck, the right thing to do. I've been doing the right thing continuously. My significant statement is the right thing to do.

Speaker 3: 30:17

Okay, go fuck it up, but some days and most days you would have tried, and it's a handful of questions, some are yet. They can be yes or no, but the hope is it's your. Whatever your immediate reaction is to this question or your immediate answer, I will tell you that you're giving palpitations to people who are AUADHD.

Speaker 2: 30:55

No, I'm joking, I'll be fine.

Speaker 3: 30:56

I'm sorry, I'm joking, I'll be 100% fine, I'm curious now Go ahead In terms of human debt, because you've seen examples of who's really fucking it up and who's doing it really well. Who do you feel is getting this right?

Speaker 2: 31:15

It's getting it right. Google started by doing it right. That's why they came up with the idea. They sort of found it at the same time that Amy has repopularized it. It's not something that Amy Edmondson has come up with, it's not something that Google has come up with, but psychological safety will forever be intrinsically connected to Google. That doesn't make Google a psychologically safe company today, necessarily. They have pockets of amazingness and pockets of absolute shit, like everyone else, but, with that said, they are an absolute good company to look at.

Speaker 2: 31:44

The second example I have and it's surprising to most people is fucking Amazon, and it's Amazon corporate. It's Amazon corporate working practices. Let's put it that way. I look at what they're doing in terms of collaboration internally, where we make software, and it's insanely smart. It's probably the only place where you have good acknowledgement of the fact that work doesn't happen like we thought it does. A famous example is the fact that they use written memos that they all bloody read first before the conversation starts. So we all have the same bloody context Very, very basic.

Speaker 2: 32:22

And then, lastly, and most interestingly so, somewhere around March, jeff Bezos came out after eight billion years where we thought he died or something. He was busy being in love. Some of us used to be back in the day, and so he came back saying we are doing no structured meetings anymore. I'm sorry, what we know when we show up, we know what we show up for. And then I remind everyone that they have to do mind wandering, which, yes, I can just see all the wondering which, yes, I can just see all the um, various developers going oh my god, now what mind wandering. They want my feelings to wander somewhere as well.

Speaker 2: 33:01

So completely get it why. It's woohoo for some people, but it's a hundred percent the truth. You only come in to get an answer when you've had five minutes of mind wandering, and what most work meetings manage to do, which is insane, is attempt to fit a little bit of mind wandering in the. And what most work meetings manage to do, which is insane, is attempt to fit a little bit of mind-wandering in the middle of an insane work meeting. And because he doesn't have an exact end time, it allows people to actually be creative and try to apply themselves to a problem. These are execs at Amazon, so maybe we get people treated like execs at Amazon and then we let their minds wander. How about that?

Speaker 3: 33:34

Can companies afford to ignore this human debt?

Speaker 2: 33:39

Companies are non-existent. There is a real of a concept organizations and companies are just as serious as Santa Claus has been saying this for 10,000 years. They cannot afford it, but they don't care because they can't care or afford or do anything. They don't exist as a thing. I I keep saying this to the child anytime he gets up in arms about corporations there isn't this thing. This thing doesn't exist. The thing you're upset against does not exist. There's no five people that have sat down and decided this and are gonna do this.

Speaker 2: 34:10

Things happen in the business world in virtue of inertia and in virtue of the taxation episode. We're in a movie that's not being ran by a company. So no, they can't afford it, but they don't care that they can't afford it, and more and more companies are going to drop off and the ones that won't. At the end of the day, we all know which we started talking about. The bloat companies are practically an extended social service. These days. They know they've not audited which of their teams is doing anything after a certain size right? Big organizations know that they are half paying the state by keeping these people that are useless. It's an insane model. Hopefully we'll walk away from it one day. If we don't't, they will simply stop being viable. I think when they are up against companies that are doing whatever they can to do better yeah, this is more moving to a personal side of things.

Speaker 3: 35:06

What are you reading and or listening to right now that you're really excited about?

Speaker 2: 35:12

I I'm really excited about brushing up on my Spanish, which has been a lot better than I thought it was. I am surprised every day when one of my team doesn't know something and I'm like that means X and they're like, can you stop just flaunting your Spanish? So I do need to learn some proper grammar. So that's what I'm reading continuously. I'm trying to catch up on Spanish. Proper grammar. So that's what I'm reading continuously.

Speaker 2: 35:34

I'm trying to catch up on spanish and, if I'm also honest, I'm reading the most I can about the effect of being a leader and a neurodivergent leader in the workplace who has teenagers and children who are alphabet mafia.

Speaker 2: 35:51

It's a really important bit that I think we have completely neglected. We've just started a new podcast called tears of dopamine, and it's literally just us talking to other parents of trans and gay kids who have had to themselves go through major and horrendous things. I can't begin to tell you and I won't because I let them tell their story Most of them will have their voices covered because they have exact jobs that they are desperate to keep, but some of them have been willing to give us their courage and use their voice and their professional standards. So you'll hear professional standing. So you'll hear of a few names, but the rest of us, the rest of us that have these kids that we are just trying to keep alive and happy, and have never talked to each other about it, shame on us, and shame on us for not opening the conversation from here on. So we have to start working on it. Let us know if you need any.

Speaker 3: 36:49

I love that. It's so important to have that community just to start the conversation and to support one another through it. What are you most excited about for this next year?

Speaker 2: 37:15

about and I'm not taking that in any trivial fashion after having been acquiring some ptsd last year and after having seen my child go through horrible things, it's a big deal for us and we've worked really hard at re-establishing our mental stability, like I say, and our therapist would be very proud if we could just uh, be happy for a minute.

Speaker 3: 37:31

Yeah, yeah, it's important. We appreciate you and all the work you're doing Duana.

Speaker 2: 37:36

Thank you so much, you guys. It's been an amazing opportunity. You guys Both beautiful, beautiful humans and souls Really appreciate you. I don't know if you're a hugger, but I'm hugging you.

Speaker 1: 37:44

I'm so excited.

Speaker 2: 37:45

I can't wait to actually genuinely hug you guys, because I cannot wait to hug you.

Speaker 1: 37:50

Truly, I I cannot wait to play a game. I look forward to it. I will look forward to it. Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work friends.

Socioeconomic Status Impacts to Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Socioeconomic Impacts to Work with Brayden Olson

Class isn’t invisible…

It shows up in how we speak, how we network, how we navigate work—and who gets hired. In this episode, we sit down with Brayden Olson, co-founder of Almas Insight and author of Twilight of the Idols, to expose how socioeconomic status silently shapes career access, confidence, and opportunity. From college applications to job interviews, we unpack the unspoken class system baked into our workplaces—and what it will take to finally level the playing field.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

the most significant determinant of someone's future is how much money they were born into, and it's not even close. So when you compare it to race and gender and sexual orientation and all of the other statistics that we have invested a lot of infrastructure in protecting for it doesn't even come close to the amount of advantage that people are experiencing based on wealth inequality.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Hey friends, we're excited because we have Brayden Olson with us. Brayden has had a long and successful career in the tech and human development space. In 2022, they became the co-founder of Amis Insight Inc. A company backed by Learn Capital that quickly and objectively measures human capability at scale. In 2019, they joined Deloitte as the Enduring Human Capability Center of Excellence lead, leading a team of passionate people about better understanding of human potential and how orgs can be even more effective by fostering that human potential. That's also where I had the pleasure of working with Brayden. Brayden also has a very deep background in game design. He was an NSF grant recipient for work in this field and has designed games to better understand human behavior. He worked with to pass legislation relevant to economic inequality the Washington Jobs Act in Washington State and he received a pen from the governor. So, brayden, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you here. You've had quite the journey, so we'd love to just hear about your journey. Tell us more about how you got started in this space.

Speaker 1: 1:52

My pleasure to be here, so great to be with some fellow Deloitte alumni. The way I like to talk a little bit about my journey. It's always easy to talk about the end state or the successes or the accomplishments. I really like to get the message out there. The reason I'm here today has a lot to do with where I came from.

Speaker 1: 2:11

My educational journey was hard so I didn't have money for school. I had to get basically a government program that helps Washington students go to school, basically get their associate's degree through community colleges first before going on to a four-year degree. I had to overload all my classes. I ended up graduating with my four-year degree 18 months after I graduated from high school, working in the school cafeteria and I barely made it right. I was on two-thirds merit scholarship, public subsidy, the whole thing. We'll get into it, but it's part of why I care about this stuff so much.

Speaker 1: 2:47

I went through a period where every day was looking at my bank account and thinking did I get another overdraft fee? Can I afford to eat this meal? There was a time before getting financing for my first company where I was like I don't have money to eat, I can't go get a sandwich and I always want to make the point my parents did absolutely the best for me that they could. There is nothing that they didn't do for me that they could do, so I don't want that to get mixed at all. The fact that I went on to become an author and a researcher and an entrepreneur at all is something that I am grateful for every day, and that was a hair's breadth from never happening. So that's the way I like to tell my journey and why I care about this stuff.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Yeah, it's incredibly important and powerful right, because that's what's really powering you behind all of this initiative and it makes sense. It's tough. We've been there, francesca, and I talk about it often that early, early days of just the struggle bus when you're getting started and it being really difficult. And I have a very similar background to you, brayden, so for me your work is also really important. I just think giving people the opportunity that you had to really struggle to find is incredibly important. We're here today to talk about socioeconomic bias. You've written a book about it. You've built technology to help eliminate it. What is socioeconomic bias? Explain it to someone like they're five. What is it at the most basic definition level?

Speaker 1: 4:19

Yeah, I'll say it personally and then I'll say it more technically. When I went through that process I just described and I said I was so close to none of these things ever happening, I went back and I did the numbers and if I had been two years younger, the increased cost of tuition would have meant that none of this would have ever happened in my life. I would have ran out of money for food before I became an entrepreneur and anything subsequent to happen to that. So what socioeconomic biases mean is, you know, put you in the same role that were, but a couple of years later and all of a sudden you become a different person. You can't make it. Those doors closed for you.

Speaker 1: 4:59

This is an active and progressive issue. Now, in a more general sense, society can be structured so that an individual's fate is based on their contributions or on their endowments, in other words, what they bring to the table and what they do for others, or what they started with. And socioeconomic inequality is what kind of a culture do you want to live in? One that's a feudalist culture you're inherited into whatever your life is going to be, or one where your ambition and capability and talent are what drive those outcomes?

Speaker 2: 6:05

no-transcript. Something that really hit me hard was that story that came out about celebrities who were paying for their kids to get into those prestigious schools when they didn't have the merit or do the work to do it. And you just think, oh my God, that's just so unfair to so many people that these little kind of backdoor entries into these institutions exist even.

Speaker 3: 6:38

But Mel, the Full House mom's daughter, was an influencer, so we could talk a lot about being on the rowing team and I wrote at UConn, so I was like even that's fake.

Speaker 2: 6:47

It made me so angry, but so I just. I really think this is such a critical topic because it does. It starts in in the education space, which we know. Education and higher education isn't the only path to success right in the world today. However, that is a big path to success and opportunity, and when there's five padlocks to get through those doors, you can't even get into the workplace because it starts with the education piece. So it's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Can I give you an unfun?

Speaker 2: 7:19

fact. Oh, please do, please share.

Speaker 1: 7:23

This is unfortunately an unfun one, but so I was doing a little research on this recently myself. I was talking with someone who's from a different generation and we were talking about what's changed, and he'd gone to Harvard himself and he was aghast to know that now there's this industry built around graduate advisors. And you would think what's a graduate advisor? Oh, if you get your master's, you have a graduate advisor who helps you get ready for your PhD. No, these are private graduate advisors. Use them for applying to master's programs or undergraduate programs, and they're admission officers that then sell their services to help you prepare your essay, your extracurriculars, what clubs you should say that you belong to, exactly what to say in your application. What they're looking for and what they promise is for $25,000, 90% or higher rates of acceptance into your top three schools of your choice. So, regardless of merit or background or current level of education, they can get 90% of the people they help, or above, placed in one of their top three schools in the world.

Speaker 2: 8:30

That's the system, unreal, because they're admission counselors and they have that network. How is that not a conflict of interest?

Speaker 1: 8:37

Yeah, so it's admission counselors who just left the admission board and it is a conflict of interest and the implication is but they don't have any insight today. They're not in touch with the colleagues that just rolled into the admission office. I don't believe that personally, especially with those rates of success. But that is the idea, is that it's not quite illegal because they are not currently the admission officers.

Speaker 3: 9:01

I like to frame that under hashtag bullshit.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Unreal, 100%, all right and we know this is rampant in education but say you made it through those hurdles. You have your education. Now You're ready to go out into the working world. How does this show up in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 9:19

I'm going to answer that, but I just have to like say but the premise is, how many people are making those hurdles? I think we really think there's so many more people who are able to get through an educational system, but it's what? Third? A third of people get through, and most of it is financially derived now. So I just want to say those are big hurdles. It's hard to get to the other side, but once you get to the other side, they're going to show up.

Speaker 1: 9:47

There was a scandal a couple of years ago that I actually think is maybe one of the best things that could have happened.

Speaker 1: 9:53

That has happened, which was Amazon created an algorithm completely de-biased, objective algorithm, in theory that was just meant to basically look through people's resumes and indicate, you know, who should be brought in for interview, and when they set the AI to look at the commonalities in the resume, what they found is that the people they had and the people that they were bringing in were from the same schools, from the same clubs, from the same associations, and so the same is true for birds of a feather flock together, right?

Speaker 1: 10:30

So if your senior boss went to the same alma mater that you do and I don't want to make it just about school but is in the same club as you. Right, you're in the golf club. Together. That is going to influence your career, and so, at every step, at every juncture, we place people that we have connection and familiarity to. So, even after the schooling is done, it's what clubs and associations you block to, which, again, are related to how much money you have. Right, you don't belong to the golf club and you don't belong to the Columbia Tower Club. You don't belong to the St James Club, unless you're already wealthy enough to be there.

Speaker 2: 11:09

I worked in talent acquisition for years prior to getting into talent development and that is absolutely rampant in organizations where it's.

Speaker 2: 11:19

These are the schools that our people are from, they're alumni.

Speaker 2: 11:23

These are our main campuses that we're gonna focus our time and attention to and there are a lot of services that come with that relationship, because internal talent acquisition teams at organizations typically build deep relationships with the programs at those schools career services offices, they provide workshops, they provide interview prep. You're providing all of these free services and connection and relationship with those quote unquote chosen schools. And then you have what we would call essentially these are the fringe schools and the time and effort and resources aren't really put into recruiting from those schools unless someone's really pushing for it, and it used to be just mind boggling to me like how much talent are we missing out on? Because you will only prioritize these 10 schools and we have 30 that we can choose from, with exceptional candidates coming out of all of them. But if it's between two candidates, there's this preference for someone that comes from one of those known schools. I know that's changing and there's a lot of good discussion around that today, but it's definitely hard to see and hard to work through.

Speaker 1: 12:35

You might actually have this data point better than I do. I just generally say how many people get jobs going through the standard, apply for it on the website, submit your resume, get called on the basis of your resume, and how many people get jobs because they know someone at that company. Right In my mind, the most common way and I'd love to hear your expertise on it. But referrals are socioeconomic bias. Inherently they know you because you are in a social sphere to know them, whether that was from your parents or from your school or from your social club or from your church. That is inherently the system and I again, you might know the numbers better, but I would imagine it's pretty high the number of people who get in through a referral.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Yeah, we have obviously nepotism rules that you need to follow to avoid that bias and try to get ahead of bias taking place just in terms of standards. But you could definitely feel the unspoken pressure right of this person in particular really wants them to come in for this internship and at times, yeah, you're like what the hell, man, I don't want to be part of this choice or this conversation, and referrals are definitely a way that it at least gets your foot in the door for a screening interview the majority of the time.

Speaker 3: 13:58

And referrals. When you're in the organization, they're incented. We were offered thousands of dollars If we found someone from our network and they were hired into those organizations. We would get thousands of dollars for that. It's not even just a hey, could you refer this person in it's? You're financially incented to do that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Yeah, and on one hand seems harmless.

Speaker 3: 14:26

Seems like it yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:28

It seems very efficient. It cuts down on the time of potentially finding good candidates right, because that takes time and money. I always go back to it. Started with positive intent but quickly got dark.

Speaker 1: 14:39

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 14:42

Why are we all white guys named Chad Exactly?

Speaker 2: 14:45

Why are we all?

Speaker 1: 14:46

white guys named Chad. We were all part of the rowing club.

Speaker 3: 14:50

You went to University of Illinois too. Oh my God yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I accidentally made it on the rowing team. My friends will tell you.

Speaker 3: 14:57

How do you accidentally make it? How do you accidentally Listen?

Speaker 2: 15:00

it was a dare to try out. It was like a fluke thing and I'll just yeah anyway, but then it was awesome. With everything, there are misconceptions on topics. So what are some common misconceptions that people often think about? Socioeconomic bias in general and then in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 15:36

I'm going to respond to that question with a question, and this is a little bit of a hot take on my part, or I want to say a hot take. It's really sound in the data, but there's a lot to talk about here. So my question is what do you think are some of the most common biases that we talk about in workplaces today, or that we create policies around?

Speaker 3: 15:56

Race gender, age, sexual orientation, religion.

Speaker 1: 16:03

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot we talk about in this field. So there's some great research just three years ago out of Georgetown that shows the most significant determinant of someone's future is how much money they were born into, and it's not even close. So when you compare it to race and gender and sexual orientation and all of the other statistics that we have invested a lot of infrastructure in protecting for it doesn't even come close to the amount of advantage that people are experiencing based on wealth inequality. So the common misconception is this is not as big of a deal as it really is.

Speaker 2: 16:44

I believe that, though, because we have an unspoken class system in the US, I like to say we don't have this caste or class system here, or you often hear, oh, middle class, what does this truly mean? But it does feel like people have their stations and it gets harder and harder to climb to the next level, and there's this misconception that you can do anything if you just pull up your breech straps. You've been going and work hard, but it is not the case.

Speaker 1: 17:17

That is what the economic data tells us.

Speaker 3: 17:20

I think because there's a money thing to it. There's also to me. I grew up upper middle class. I remember I had someone very close to me that their parents had immigrated to this country and he was eight when he immigrated and I remember we were both in grad school and I was going into corporate. My parents were both corporate, his parents worked in factories and we had this discussion around navigating corporate and that I knew what to do because my parents were helping me navigate all of this stuff. There was a language that I inherently grew up with and understood, that was absolutely foreign to him, and it was the first time in my life where I was like, oh wow, it's a money and opportunity piece. It's also a unwritten language of how do you even navigate college applications, how do you navigate social crap that happens when you're in these circles or not. It's all of that.

Speaker 2: 18:17

It's all of that with Francesca and I talk about it all the time because we're like, wow, this experience was way different. But like you, brayden, and to your point, francesca, similarly I did not have that guidance. It was a financial aid officer at UConn that helped me fill out my FAFSA, because my parents didn't help me do it. And then I remember my first job interview. I didn't realize you had to wear a suit because I didn't have parents to teach me. They were like telling me that guidance and I borrowed a friend's suit to interview because I was rejected by three jobs because I showed up in a button down shirt and pants and it wasn't a formal suit and I was like, what's the problem? Why does that matter? And I didn't even own a suit and I didn't have the money to buy a suit, so I borrowed one just to have that first interview.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yeah, I would love to amplify because you're exactly right, it's all of these subtle and small things we don't even think about. And then there's this level deeper let's talk about, like how a person perceives themselves in the world, confidence, what their worth, what their inherent worth is as a human being. And when they study this they're like they can do the standardized tests on kids young and they'd be like this kid's in the top 10 percentile in terms of math capability, but bottom 10 percentile in terms of economics, and what happens? So they see that their scores go down and down and down Right, and the other kids scores go up, and part of that is the tutors that the parents can afford, but the other part of that is one of these kids is getting affirmation.

Speaker 1: 19:53

One of these kids is being told that they're worth something and that they're loved and that they're valued. And that adds up in how, like, I'm going to take it all the way to the workplace, right? So you have that kid who starts out like always feeling they're super talented, they're super capable, and they always feel behind and they're always made to feel not enough or not as good as their peers. Are they asking for promotions when they're 25 and when they're 30 and when they're 35? Or are they just happy to be there if they succeeded in being anywhere? And so there's, like this inner confidence and value and self-worth and problem of caste systems, as you said, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Yeah, it sounds like there's a lifelong kind of issue there where they're not going to ask for those opportunities or feel they're worth going after them. So, man, we could probably talk about two hours I'm like oh, there's so much to uncover, how, how does this, or does it even differ between industries or professions Is there? Is it more rampant in certain professions over others, or have you found that it's pretty much across the board?

Speaker 1: 21:02

Well, it's going to sound like good news. It's not across the board, but the bad news is it's directly proportional to how much status, money, privilege, come with that position. So the more desired the position, the more socioeconomic barriers will be an impediment If you want to be a CEO, or you want to be a senator, or you want to be an astronaut, or you want to be if it has power, and so you can see this again. I've done some of my own research more recently and my own personal experience with graduate programs, so it's fresh on my mind. I don't want to keep going back there, but the families that are wealthy want their kids to go get a medical degree, get a law degree, get a business degree, get an engineering degree. These are going to be inherently more competitive and bought and purchased programs. Someone going for a fine arts degree? I don't know, there's probably not a lot of low economic people that are trying to go to a four-year school to get a fine arts degree, but it's more competitive the more money is associated with the role.

Speaker 3: 22:06

I'm laughing because my undergrad was in Italian printmaking, which is etching on copper plates. Again, I made really dumb shit decisions. Sorry, yeah, I'm laughing. Oh, yeah, oh my god was that about privilege I'm gonna come for?

Speaker 1: 22:26

I'm here for the joke, yeah but it's yeah, I love it and yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's good, we need to care about the issue. We need to laugh too, because that's how you do with this stuff. It's good, we need to care about these issues. We need to laugh too, because that's how you deal with this stuff. It's sad, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:39

I love that we're having this conversation and we can joke about it, right, because, okay, what can we do to make it better? That's the ultimate goal, and talking about it helps bring awareness. I think even just sharing our personal stories about what was your experience like can be really eye-opening of how different Back I remember when I was younger, I knew there was a difference, but I didn't realize how much. And it's these stories as I get older, with peers and friends and talking about it, where you're like holy shit, how do you change this? How?

Speaker 3: 23:07

do you change it? Brayden? One of the things you talked about earlier was this idea of confidence from an individual. What is the long-term impact of socioeconomic bias on individuals? One of those impacts could be on the confidence piece, but what have you found in terms of what are some of the other long-term impacts of this, as people are going through their career.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Okay, let's take it step by step. I think that self-worth thing develops early. I think whether you can afford to get an education which a majority of people won't. So these are big barriers each time. So, whether you can afford to, can you get into a prestigious one? Do you have the with the right people in the right ways especially now with the remote work outside of work, in your social clubs and golf clubs and whatever to get promoted more quickly as you go through your career? For most people that's about promotions.

Speaker 1: 24:09

I do want to take a slight turn and say a lot of these people don't do it through the traditional career workforce. Right, they might go on to be politicians or celebrities or. But I'm an entrepreneur. A lot of people are trying to move in that direction now and that is highly correlated. Whether the people that can make your company successful I how deep do I want to get into this, there's so much I can say being able to get money for your company is completely who. You know, I sit in these different meetings, so I see both perspectives very clearly.

Speaker 1: 24:44

For people who go in and pitch to VCs and the VC doesn't know who that person is, is a button down professional pitch, super nuts, they are going to talk about the business and they're probably going to get a no. If the VC knows the person and again, I sit in on these calls they say, oh, nevermind, don't worry about the pitch. Yeah, how are we going to get this done? Verbatim, how are we going to structure this deal? Which of our friends are we bringing in on it?

Speaker 1: 25:11

Which? Which influencers are we going to tap for this one? Oh, it's like the other one we did right, so let's tap this one and this one. So it's everywhere. And so they might do it within promotions, they might do it by trying to be an entrepreneur or start their own business. They're still going to count it. And I think the longest term implication, and the one that we need to be the most concerned about and talk the most about, is that the impact of socioeconomic inequality on that person's life is also going to be the primary determinant of the success of their child's life and their child's life. It's like generational at this point.

Speaker 3: 25:49

Yes, I just read a study that one of the greatest impacts on a child's happiness and their well-being is actually how happy the mother is. Did you see that?

Speaker 1: 26:00

Which makes sense.

Speaker 1: 26:01

So there's a great book called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which is written by one of the greatest addiction experts in the world, and in that book he talks about all of this research and about basically what leads to addiction.

Speaker 1: 26:19

His point is amazing, which is we're all oriented to addiction and we all have some form of addiction. The question is, how much do we express it? And that has to do with how much we suffer, love the message. But his point on this mother thing is he says that the number one determinant, or the most impactful determinant around whether someone will become a drug addict is the abnormalities that they have in their serotonin and dopamine production, because basically, people who have abnormalities will have different experiences with drugs, where it's like they really don't feel normal without them, and the primary determinant of that is how much eye contact they have with the mother between the ages of one and three and what were her stress levels. And so then you think about that and it's which mothers are with their children constantly between one and three and don't have stress or have the least amount of stress.

Speaker 3: 27:14

When I think about some of the highest stressors that people face too money, if you are feeling like you're living paycheck to paycheck or you're on the verge of homelessness that amount of stress, in addition to raising children, in addition to trying to be a partner or a spouse or a daughter, a son, a sibling, it's incredible. That's an incredible amount of stress. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:35

And working right. And the other thing we didn't say is how many families can either parent but one of the parents afford not to work? That's a wealth option. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:49

That's from a For those folks that have gone through all of those hurdles. I'm looking at two of them that have gone through that and come out very successful as well. Are there advantages Meaning are you stronger minded, right, or something of this sort? Do you find that there's better skills coming out of that or no? Is this a bad?

Speaker 2: 28:11

this is a weird question but you get where I'm going with this. No, it's not a weird question.

Speaker 1: 28:15

I did a talk on resilience and we talked about what breeds resilience and there's lots of things metacognition and lots of things are really important to talk about. One of the really important things is how much have you been through? And if you can reference back to oh, I've been through harder times than this right, that's the easiest way to be resilient. I did that. I can survive this right. So resilience is directly proportional to how much someone goes through and experiences. I think empathy is a muscle that you're gonna grow, because it's easy to see, when you almost don't make it, why someone else might not have made it, and that not being a reflection of their inadequacies or, um, in game build lack of capable. I think it's a really relevant consideration. I think the problem is that you never really know where you would have gotten without the barriers, so you can't really compare to who you would have been and I can't say whether it would have been better or worse.

Speaker 3: 29:19

In a way that's true for everybody Right have you ever seen the? Movie Sliding Doors with Gwyneth Paltrow. What was that, Mel? From like 1994? I have no idea. I think so. Yeah, I love that movie. Brady, do you know the premise of this movie?

Speaker 1: 29:31

I don't, you'll have to tell me.

Speaker 3: 29:33

You're like really, this is what we're talking about. So the premise of the movie is Gwyneth Paltrow. Basically, she takes one subway or she takes another subway, and depending on which subway she takes, her life just ends up completely different. Like it's that question of if I would have just taken path A, how would my life be different? The answer is that question, but it also begs an interesting question In order to gain empathy, or resilience too, do people have to go through hardship in order to get? That Is a different question. Curious about impact, so we talked about it at the individual, I am wondering how this might impact work, culture or impact a team.

Speaker 1: 30:13

I'll say a light thing first, which is the birds of a feather thing again. Right, so teams are probably going to get organized around people they know and comfort level, and so birds of a feather, that's a very light thing. I think that as a culture, we are moving more and more towards what makes us different. It's all about this group and that group and you're not part of my group and my group group and that group and you're not part of my group and my group just got smaller today and you're not part of it anymore, and so as we move in that direction, this becomes part of it. It's one more thing that divides people. That's where you middle class or low class or upper class and do I trust you because of that or do I not trust you because of that? Does one group feel resentment towards the other or contempt towards the other? I see those things showing up. I don't want to speak to other people's experiences, but that's something that we see emerging. So that relates to teams, right, people who might not feel as comfortable trusting of each other, because it's one more divide that's getting between us.

Speaker 1: 31:11

My bigger message on that and we could circle back to it later, but I don't know. I just said circle back. I know that's like the most hated term in corporate. We could talk about that again at a later time. But the real message is like there are so many things that divide us right now. How do we start unifying? Because this is an issue that impacts almost everyone in the United States. Like you can make arguments about oh, I'm upper middle class or middle class or lower middle class or dirt poor, or, but it's really just like the one percent and then everybody else. The differences are so severe and so substantial.

Speaker 1: 31:51

And look, harvard ain't admitting that many people this year. Nor is Oxford, right, we're talking about small numbers of people in one camp. And look, harvard ain't admitting that many people this year. Nor is Oxford, right, we're talking about small numbers of people in one camp. And there's just so many other things that divide us today. And a lot of us have this in common, and it is again the single most impactful thing as to what our futures will look like, at least financially speaking, at least in terms of our wealth and accomplishments. We got a lot in common, and I think coming together is going to help a lot.

Speaker 3: 32:19

You feel it in politics. This isn't a political statement by any means, but when you look at, for example, a lot of what the Trump campaign had run on, continues to run on, is this idea of you've been left behind economically and I'm going to be the person that's going to bring it back in. And then you have the Biden administration, which is looking at more, bringing everybody along. They're both an economic message coming from different places, but I feel like both of those messages are very different. They're very divided. So you have the politics happening with that kind of economic message. You also have technology, with AI, and we just got the job support, for example.

Speaker 3: 32:59

I think, there's going to be a lot more fear around economics and the 1% and those that aren't. How do we move towards that common ground when it just feels like there are so many vices that are just pushing us further and further, apart from an economic perspective?

Speaker 1: 33:18

I can sometimes sound like a super pessimist when I talk about the data, but this is actually something I'm quite optimistic about, oh, sweet, because we need some good news, because I'm like, I'm bummed, bring the good news please Look.

Speaker 1: 33:31

At the end of the day, we have a lot that's working to divide us. Your point is exactly the right point and I'll put even, like a pin on top of it, who is the Trump administration speaking to and who is the Biden administration speaking to. They're talking about different economic problems, so I'll just put a label on it. I'll be the person.

Speaker 1: 33:52

One might be talking about white male problems and the other might be talking about people of color problems, women problems, and the reality is the cake for all of us is getting smaller every year and has been since 1971. Under every administration Republican, democrat, doesn't matter. Congress controlled by Democrats, president, republican doesn't matter, matter Congress controlled by Democrats, president, republican doesn't matter. Every administration, the pie has got smaller for all of those groups. Now we're fighting over it in different ways and it might be getting split up in different ways, but it's getting smaller for all of us and has been consistently. And the reason I say I'm a bit of an optimist is one humans might be my belief, but I think most of us are empathetic and compassionate and believe in essential equality, believe in modern political terms. They talk about this kind of era as liberal equality what is?

Speaker 1: 34:51

that, okay, there's all. So all political philosophy is underpinned by moral philosophy. So we start with a set of morality and then we build it into an idea, and utilitarianism was an idea that we should maximize the good for everyone. Right, and so it became a political movement that, under that kind of, helped destroy feudalism, because it was like this isn't the best for all. There's these three people at the top, or whatever. Unfortunately, we've come back around back to dead your servants.

Speaker 3: 35:23

Okay, fantastic, that's good all right.

Speaker 1: 35:25

So then we entered into this, this era, and there's some great works by a guy named Rawls and Dworkin great names to a theory of justice and and it's a lot of what we talk about today where they're like, hey, this is what it would ideally look like and a lot of people bought into this message.

Speaker 1: 35:43

It's where a lot of these like pushes for equality and people shouldn't have these negative dispositions on them. Unfortunately, it hasn't really translated to our politics, but it is something we naturally feel. So I think there is both this sense in human beings that, like we innately have compassion, and there's this cultural zeitgeist that, like people fundamentally feel about what is right in politics, and so there's a lot of systems that are holding that back, but it is holding back something that is natural, something that is believed and accept and been felt by most people, like super majority of people, and so my optimism is look, the politicians are not going to lead us to the promised land here, like they are working to create divisiveness among us, and whether that's a conspiracy or what helps them get elected doesn't matter to me. They're not solving the problem.

Speaker 3: 36:39

No, the data shows that yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:40

Yeah, but we should be optimistic about the future because culturally we hold these beliefs and take off some of this kind of unnatural confusion and we're compadres. We're in the same journey, fighting for the same things.

Speaker 3: 36:54

Yeah, I just feel like there's so much more that unites us than divides us instinctually and actually as well that it'd be. I am looking forward to seeing more of us leaning into that and not waiting for institutions to make that happen.

Speaker 1: 37:11

I agree, and that's where it's going to come from. I think it comes from us as individuals, but a mentor of mine says he teaches leadership to, has the best selling books on leadership in the world and he really understands the topic. He said I've given up on politics. I gave up a long time ago. Any hope I have in the future is in business leaders stepping up, and so I think it's individuals and I think it's organizations that are hopefully going to move this message forward.

Speaker 3: 37:36

There's a lot of organizations can do right.

Speaker 1: 37:38

Yes, there is, especially when 96% of elections are won by whoever raised the most money.

Speaker 3: 37:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:47

And now about 80% of the money that goes into campaigns comes from businesses and super PACs. So there's a lot of the business community.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Absolutely, absolutely so what measures can organizations start to take? One to identify the socioeconomic biases that they're upholding within their structures and systems and policies.

Speaker 1: 38:29

There are some basic things right. Ditch the degree requirements, especially where they don't matter. You could say stronger programs around, don't take referrals, so maybe don't incentivize the referrals or put some policies in place to stop them. Obviously, I'm going to say gather human capability data to actually understand the people and look at what is effective instead of where people came from. Ask more about people's stories in the interview process and filter that information into how you're judging their responses. As an example to your case, mel, if they asked about your background, maybe they could have overlooked that you weren't in a suit, building stronger reskilling programs, thinking about people as people and saying you know what. You didn't get a two-year accounting degree, but you've got all the makings and we're going to invest in some people this year and get them skilled up. The upswing for companies is these are exceptionally loyal people. That's everything that we see in the data. So if you want to save a ton of money on attrition, invest it on these kinds of programmatic changes.

Speaker 2: 39:39

I think that's such an important call out. I think organizations miss the forest through the trees because they're not going to see an immediate return on investment in some of these things or don't see the value of implementing some of these things. What role does leadership play here in addressing and reducing these issues in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 39:58

Referencing Bill George leadership at Harvard for 23 years. He wrote the True North book series. I've had a beyond unbelievable opportunity to be mentored by him for 16 years, which came out of nowhere. It was one of these never should have happened things. But actually you know what I'm going to tell that story because I think it answers a bit of your question.

Speaker 1: 40:22

So I was, he was doing a tour, talking to all these universities, and he came by a relatively not prestigious Seattle university and gave a talk. I skipped my class so that I could attend. I didn't know who he was, but the talk was on like ethical leadership and that was appealing to me. And so I went to this talk and I just challenged him in a polite way. I was if you're so good at business, like, why didn't you start your own? Why did you just become a CEO of a company that was almost a billion dollars and then make it a international 18 billion or something? At the end of his tenure grew at 23%, and he loved that. And so I went up after and I gave him my card and he was like oh, I'm so glad that you, that you came up, let's keep in touch. And I emailed him once and he never responded. I emailed him a second time he never responded. I emailed him a third time he never responded. I emailed him a fourth time and he was like I was waiting to hear from you, so good to hear from you.

Speaker 1: 41:15

And two years later we went for a run together and he was like do you know why we're friends? And I said I have no idea. And and I had just passed him on the track and he was like do it one more time and I'll tell you. And he was a good runner, but mind you. But I looped him again and he said no one that I teach at Harvard will run.

Speaker 1: 41:36

And so, in a way, he was looking for people that aren't normal, not what most of these leaders are surrounded by, which is people that they're very comfortable with, that don't challenge them, that just support their views, that just say gosh, you're the best person that I've ever met met. And I do want to say I'm sure there are some people at Harvard and not everyone is there with all these things that we're talking about. So I don't want to say anything negative about any institution, but the point nonetheless he was looking for something really different than what organizational leaders typically look for, and I think that's what we need to do. And this is the long way of moving back to that.

Speaker 1: 42:21

96% of politicians win based on who raised the most money. So politicians aren't going to change it. It's on business leaders, and I think it's the defining issue of our time. So I think it's up to us. I think that business leaders have to look outside what's efficient, natural, comfortable in front of them and say this is an issue I'm aware of. What can I do about it in the day to day things that I do.

Speaker 2: 42:48

When you think about business leaders presence throughout communities, it's massive. Your experience alone a lot of business leaders spend a lot of time on campus, where people are just beginning their journeys of career exploration. So even how they show up there or think of candidates differently, or interacting with students differently and having those conversations or being willing to give, I got to ask, though I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: 43:15

I think we are absolutely not talking about the very important thing in that story is you had a card in undergrad.

Speaker 1: 43:24

I didn't want to say anything Absolutely, and I will make even more fun of myself. I wore suits.

Speaker 3: 43:36

Oh.

Speaker 1: 43:36

I know.

Speaker 3: 43:37

We're ending the conversation right now. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more.

Speaker 1: 43:47

I was working in the school cafeteria, I was overloading on my classes and I was trying to start a company, and so I was like, okay, I'm like, I am showing up to this game, I am working as hard as I can work I actually I don't even know how I did it these days but so I was like suit, I had a card for my company. I was like this is my dream, I'm going to go after it. That was me, and so this one other guy we joke now because we're both like super laid back and super I wear like Mandarin cut shirts and not normal. And we were the two like. We showed up in suits and we stayed friends and we're both like the opposite now oh, that's so funny.

Speaker 3: 44:22

How did you know to do that? Like literally, how did you know to do that?

Speaker 1: 44:25

or did you just free this up? Gosh, I didn't. I certainly didn't know how to do it. I struggled for such a long time. Yeah, I had no experience, no, no one to teach me at all. I did so many things wrong for so long. I guess it was just like I was just going to give it everything I had every day. But again, if I had been two years younger, none of it would have ever happened. It didn't matter that I had overloaded all my classes and still graduated magna cum laude and big gamma sigma and worked in the school cafeteria and didn't have enough money and started a business. None of it would have mattered. It wouldn't have been enough.

Speaker 2: 45:04

Timing and luck are big components of, in addition to that ambition piece and the business cards, let's not forget the business cards.

Speaker 1: 45:16

And don't underestimate the kids sitting in the suit in the business class.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Wear your suits, class kids.

Speaker 1: 45:22

Kids go in places.

Speaker 2: 45:26

AI is the hot topic everywhere. What role does technology play in either holding up socioeconomic bias or eliminating it in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 45:39

I think that totally has to do with what leaders do. I think it'd be very the technologies are becoming available. I'm working on them, other people are. It calls on leaders to not ignore the technologies that are becoming available, to recognize that they will get lower attrition rates, that they are going to save money, that they are going to get better people and that they're going to do good for the world all at the same time.

Speaker 1: 46:04

And honestly, you mentioned AI and automation. Are some of my biggest concerns because throughout time, the conflict has been between labor and capital. All economics or models are built on this, and wages for labor has not matched productivity gains for 55 years now something like that and the problem with AI and automation is the power of the labor class to negotiate is getting pulled out from under them. It's been a concern. I think it is an increasing concern and I don't know how fast it's all going to change. But labor needs to negotiate now and get political influence now if we're going to live in something other than a dystopian altered carbon society in the future. Yeah, because yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:57

It is a little scary Because, yeah, it is a little scary. Yolo, yeah, all for universal income. It's like figuring this out Because, to your good point, the room to negotiate is getting smaller and smaller and I think most organizations don't even know yet what this looks like for them. So it's like in five years time, what world are we going to be living in? Your company, Almas Insights, you are building technology. You have technology that helps remove inherent bias in resume review, referrals, interviews. Can you tell us more about that tech?

Speaker 1: 47:31

Yeah, absolutely, and I'll give some thank yous here as well. So the essence of our technology is we put someone in a digital work sample for 45 minutes and they go through a variety of situations like you will experience in the workplace and demonstrate their preferences and behaviors and capabilities and how they respond and how they react and that's all cool, but that's not actually what we do. What we actually do is all the data on the other side where we say what kinds of people are being successful in this role at this organization, and that all happens automatically in the data. So a company just baselines it. The statistical significant things basically highlight in that and the machine learning algorithm matches that with people who are applying or people who already exist in that job who have also taken the measurement. So all of that becomes automated and it says this person is likely to stay with your firm for a long time If you hire them. This person is likely to be high potential in this role, and it's all objective data.

Speaker 1: 48:34

But what we did and I think what proved to be one of the important aspects of how we approach this was we put it in a fully contextualized environment. So when I say digital work sample. I don't just mean situational questions. There are avatars on screen. You see what's going on. You have full context of the experience towards Deloitte and also the University of Washington. There was a validation study that doesn't eliminate all other biases, and it did so. Level of education didn't matter. What someone's current job was didn't matter they could be an Uber driver or a Deloitte consultant because they had so much context. And then people said, hey, this was like the most accurate thing that I've seen for a Sethi and myself.

Speaker 2: 49:22

This is going to completely remove all bias about your match to this role and how powerful for talent acquisition to find the right people for the right jobs at the right time. That helps with workforce planning. That helps with so many things. So kudos to you, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 49:40

I'm excited about it. Vision here is, as you look at unemployment right and you look at some of these people who are very talented and on the fringe and being overlooked, having something that can give employers confidence and giving people like that opportunity is what the world needs more of.

Speaker 2: 50:00

Yeah, that's huge and giving those people confidence as well. Totally brayden, we like to close out each episode with a rapid round. These don't have to be one word answers, but maybe one sentence, and it's just to get your like immediate reaction to some of these questions. How does that?

Speaker 1: 50:38

all right, let's see.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Okay, if you could change one workplace process or rule nationwide for everyone, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 50:48

I guess I go to ban the degree or forget the degree thing.

Speaker 2: 50:52

What's one book everyone should read on this topic.

Speaker 1: 50:57

It's so hard. I would say, if they're interested in just the economics and reality of what's happening capitalism in the 21st century by pickety if they are interested in the political concepts, that we should probably be listening more to a theory of justice by rawls. And of course, I would be amiss to not mention I also have a book on the topic which is Twilight of the Idols, an American Story which gets into. How is this impacting, in particular, young American lives today?

Speaker 2: 51:29

Yeah, we'll link to that. We'll link to that in the show notes for everyone. What's the biggest barrier to workplace equality?

Speaker 1: 51:37

Two words, but downstream consequences. Tell me more equality Two words, but downstream consequences, tell me more. Yeah, well, so we can't start fixing it in the workplace? It starts with kindergarten, right? And so the downstream consequence of having someone, as we talked about, not confident, or having someone who couldn't get a college degree, or having someone, and then the downstream consequence on the other side of this is going to be the primary determinant of their children's future. It's a downstream consequence problem. I don't think we could just say the workplace fixes this.

Speaker 2: 52:06

What was your first job and what did it teach you about socioeconomic bias?

Speaker 1: 52:11

Working in the school cafeteria to pay for my college degree. That's my first like real job and people look at you different. That's what I learned. There's the kids who need to do that and the kids who don't need to do that, and I learned real quick that people look at you different when you are serving them their food. And it's just heartbreaking to know that.

Speaker 1: 52:31

They're your peers. So it's like it's one thing if it's the local Taco Bell or something, but if it's like it's you and your classmates and they're out behind the cafeteria and you are behind the cafeteria, yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:43

Yeah. What's one myth about this topic that you want to bust today for everybody?

Speaker 1: 52:49

It's just the insignificance of it. It's that it is the single most determining factor of someone's future and we need to organize around that. We are in this together.

Speaker 2: 53:00

What's one piece of advice you would give to your younger self? And we need to organize around that we are in this together. What's one piece of advice you would?

Speaker 1: 53:05

give to your younger self. This one's hard, it's just hard feedback to give. But I think I would tell my younger self play the game, Don't lose your soul. And then give it all away. And I probably could have gone a lot further, a lot faster, if this didn't enrage me so much. But but I wanted to beat the system or prove it a different way. And the system is the way the system is. If you have influence, help break it, but you have to have the influence first.

Speaker 2: 53:40

We're glad you were enraged because you're doing good things. Last question future of work. Are you optimistic or pessimistic?

Speaker 1: 53:48

I think short-term, long-term, short-term pessimistic, long-term optimistic Pessimistic because what are the things happening and what is the direction they're going, but optimistic because movement towards public benefit, corporations, triple bottom lines, intentional communities which probably no one on this, or a lot of these people, are not going to be aware of.

Speaker 1: 54:10

So I will just say there, these groups there's more than 10,000 in the world now. I had no idea how many, but there's like an example, twin Oaks in Virginia and it's a group of people, a couple hundred people that live and work together and they sell like tofu and hammocks and stuff like that. But everybody makes the same money, they all live comfortably, they have stipends they can spend on whatever they want, they have 600,000 in profit every year that they invest in their community and it's very much how indigenous tribes live. I had the opportunity to live with one for a couple of weeks, which is amazing. But there are all these models emerging where people are taking care of each other and thinking about business differently. We've never really seen culture sustain economic inequality as long as we are seeing here. So change is bound to happen, and hopefully really positive and really soon.

Speaker 2: 55:10

Brayden, we're glad you are working towards helping to change that little by little in what you're doing, because eventually that will become what is it take one bite and suddenly the whole meal is done right, like it'll be a bigger impact long-term so excited to see it and we really appreciate you talking about this with us today.

Speaker 1: 55:29

Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 3: 55:34

Thanks so much for joining us today. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You can come over and say hi to us on the TikToks and LinkedIn community. Hit us up at yourworkfriends.com. We're always posting stuff on there and if you found this episode helpful, share with your work, friends, bye.

The Talent Fueled Enterprise

Your Work Friends Podcast: The Talent Fueled Enterprise with Mike Ohata

You can build high-performing teams and create a workplace people actually want to be part of. Just ask Mike Ohata—Fortune 15 talent leader, author of The Talent-Fueled Enterprise, and the guy talent insiders call a badass. In this episode, Mike shares how to lead with care and results, why psychological safety drives performance, and how to stop treating people like capital.

From the future of AI to why simplicity beats scale, we unpack what soulful leadership looks like in today’s world—and why it’s not just possible, but essential. If you’re ready to fuel your org with both head and heart, this one’s for you.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

It just takes a dimension of courage. And I remember one CEO kept saying the most simplistic message. He goes if we get our culture right, the rest will come. We'll win in the marketplace, we'll win clients, we'll sell bigger projects. And you could feel it. He knew in his soul what the values were. He knew in his spirit what he was after and what he saw. And you go like, yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2: 0:28

What's going on, Mel?

Speaker 3: 1:00

Not much. I feel super energized. I belong to this community, through Culture First, that hosts co-working days in the city. I just love it so much. Not to speak for you, but like me, we kind of thrive on like hive togetherness of collaborating and brainstorming. So I just get a lot of energy out of just leaving my house and sitting in a space with other people who are getting shit done and then being able to connect and ask questions. So it felt good today I did that in the city. What about you? Nice?

Speaker 2: 1:14

And by the city you mean New.

Speaker 3: 1:16

York, I mean New York. Yeah, yeah, sorry everyone.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Yeah, I got to say I don't think I have prepared myself as a parent around sports. I did not grow up playing sports Like we were in like ceramics camp and dance and piano. That's what I did. I didn't really play sports, yeah. But my son is super into sports. My husband played soccer in college. Like they're into sports. I was not prepared for the amount of practices and such like. Just for soccer, just for soccer. And he's in first grade. They have practices on Monday, games on Saturday and then this weekend there was a jamboree like a fundraiser.

Speaker 2: 1:56

I'm like this is three days three days, three days out of the week, dedicated to soccer wait until he gets into middle school and high school.

Speaker 3: 2:06

That'd be five days a week, and then you'll have a pasta dinner to raise money. I was not prepared. Oh, I know what to get you now as a gift I have lawn chairs, I do have not a lawn, not a lawn chair, not a lawn chair like one of those pop-up tents.

Speaker 2: 2:19

What do we do? What do you hell?

Speaker 3: 2:20

yeah, the pop-up tent for outside, so. So when it starts raining, you could just zip yourself in.

Speaker 2: 2:26

It has a little window Like a little drive-thru window Like what here's your snacks. Yeah, it has a little window that you can look through, you're nice and cozy. Throw Clif Bars out of it. Yes, please get me that. That's funny, that's funny Okay. That's funny, that's funny Okay.

Speaker 3: 2:41

Oh man, yeah, you're going to be busy, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:44

Well, we had a pretty rad discussion with Mike Ohata, didn't we?

Speaker 3: 3:02

We did. Yeah, yeah, mike Ohata joined us. He's a talent executive and strategic advisor. He's worked for organizations like Microsoft and KPMG and he's the author of the Talent-Fueled Enterprise. We read the book. It was awesome, and then we got to talk to him about it.

Speaker 2: 3:11

And we think there's a lot of good knowledge nuggets for folks to take away from this conversation. The book is written and geared towards. If you're the head of HR, the head of learning and development, if you're a CEO, right, it's looking at strategically what do you want to do to make sure that your enterprise is really garnering the full potential of everybody that works there? Right? Listen, if you are in those roles, it's a must read, absolutely, but that's not really why we wanted to have Mike on. It feels like there's this conversation happening in the ether, especially around anything HR or people related that it's very polarized.

Speaker 3: 3:40

Oh, it is right now. I read something yesterday around you're not strategic. If you're a bleeding heart HR person, take some issue with these types of comments, because I think something that you and I talk about often, and something that Mike emphasized, was this need for balance, the balance of caring for people and your bottom line and how you can bring those two things together in a really effective way.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Where work and where goodness really gets done is in trying to find the common ground, is in trying to figure out what is the balance between to your very good points, profit and being really good to your people, or really understanding how you can maximize the potential of your people, and we highly recommend Mike's book With us. He walked through how can anybody, whether you're a manager, a leader of an organization, really fuel your organization with not only talent but with soul as well, and gave some really really practical advice, and it was just a fun conversation.

Speaker 3: 4:43

And, side note, there's a lot of great movie quotes and tiebacks in this book, but this is a great conversation and with that, here's Mike Ohata. Mike, we are so excited to have you with your work, friends, today, and you've written the talent-fueled enterprise, which is focusing on how businesses can thrive by really focusing in on their talent, and we'd love to start off with what inspires you to write this book having me.

Speaker 1: 5:25

I'm really excited and I'm looking forward to our conversation. I've had the fortune in coming out of professional services and the firm I work is. There's this age where you time out and you're asked to retire. In that, just this notion of being able to be liberated from your organization, the stepping back, stepping away, getting out of the organization, has allowed to really share all the things that you'd like to work on. But you don't always have the opportunity to work on and also just get up all those kind of pent up feelings and thoughts around what could have been, could be and why can't we get to them in your careers.

Speaker 1: 5:56

It's really hard sometimes to get things done because we're constrained in these systems and these are of these organizations. The other part of the inspiration it sounds super corny, but it really is the people you work with right. It's the employees in our particular firm and the partners as well. But the people are really inspiring because, at the end of the day, they are the potential right and they are the engine of the organization. And you got to step back and go. I love that we do the work that we do in HR and talent and learning, because we love the people and we want to see what we can do for them and see what they become.

Speaker 3: 6:30

So that was my starting point on how I got inspired love of people and the value of them in the workplace, and how we can make it better. Why is talent such a crucial element in a company's success? Can you explain it to our listeners, like they're five? Why?

Speaker 1: 6:52

is that the case? Talent is just one of those words we use to talk about the people in our businesses, in our organizations, and it is the word of the day. It's become a little bit of the slogan of the day too, but it also shows the recognition that people really do matter for businesses. The broader question, though, that really comes up from that is so what do you do about it? We're talking about talent because we're trying to find a better way to talk about employees, about employees. There is this kind of deep felt in our values and so forth and our feelings that people really do matter Really. They are the heart and soul of the organization, but then the organization keeps churning on doing what it's always done, and so I think it's really important for all of us to understand is that, collectively, we're all here at this place around really needing to understand how to think about talent differently?

Speaker 1: 7:46

And the other thought that goes through my mind and why it's so important, is for the last 23 plus years we've had this notion around talent as a scarce thing. We have this mindset of scarcity and we talk about the war for talent all the time. There's a lot of relevance to those models around like looking at sort of high potential, high performance, et cetera, but it's an incomplete view, and so the challenge that I've kept coming across is that if we're all looking for the same people, the same resource, the same talent, that just doesn't compute, because we're surrounded by all these people and you know this story right Like we've hired the best people and then you wind forward and go, we can't find the right talent. And I'm just how does that even work? What happened along the way? It really begins to speak to this condition around, this philosophy or this point of view that says there's only a handful of good people out there, and I'm just like that's not really a way to live, it's not a sustainable way to live.

Speaker 3: 8:39

And so, in this current framework around you know leaders talking about talent and it's super important for us to realize is that there's a vast wealth of potential in the organization. That starts with understanding all employees and creating sort of opportunities for all of us. I like the shift in the mindset right, Because every employee that you hire, you hired them because you believed that they have this high potential. So where does that change? There's a real opportunity here to support them and their continued growth and potential.

Speaker 1: 9:09

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 9:10

In the book there was a theme that really resonated with me throughout. You mentioned that the talent strategy mindset that inherently values the human and the concept of I see you is super important. How can leaders and orgs show their talent, that they truly see them?

Speaker 1: 9:28

That's tough. I say it's tough because it's really easy to say do this and do that, but it's really kind of a set of practices that we all pick up every day. It's the simple things from around. You spend time regularly with your teams, with your people. You stop to say hello. It doesn't have to be super formal, but do you actually have a way, a practice, to understand what do people really want to get out of work? What do they want to get out of the job? What do they really desire a year from now, two years from now? Is it the model of performance that drives the business outcomes that drives those questions, or is it a real interest and curiosity in the manager or leader that's going to say I just want to know what's going on, but a lot of it's just connecting and building community.

Speaker 3: 10:12

Yeah, it makes me think of the real need to build psychological safety. So if a senior leader is asking what you're up to, the initial response isn't oh, am I in trouble? But more of they're coming from a place of curiosity.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Yeah, yeah. Isn't that a telling statement when people say, well, am I in trouble? Because they feel like they're not safe or they may be at risk.

Speaker 3: 10:32

Yeah, you also talk about how orgs often refer to employees as resources and the workforce as human capital, which is ultimately dehumanizing right, because it's not seeing people for who they are as humans. What changes would you recommend orgs make in regards to how they refer to their talent to bring back that humanity in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 10:57

Yeah, in general, there's nothing really wrong with the words right and selves. They're just words, and they're just words. Come and go. Really, what's going on here from a theory perspective, is just around. People are watching all day long what leaders are doing. They're watching all day long what the practices, the lived experience of the organization is, and so I think what's really important is you can use words like workforce or human capital, but really the fundamental thing is, what do people see you do? So like, for example, the really common one in which is tough and there's no easy solution or answer around this.

Speaker 1: 11:31

We have this need for a business outcome, but we're not making our plan, and I think I've heard you folks talk about this and then but you're, so what do you do when you have too many people? So the typical thing that often happens is we downsize the workforce or we right-size it, so to speak. Right, and we go through that riffing process. And I love the story that you folks talked about on taking that long view, that long game with people, that behavior and set of actions around. Taking that long view communicates so much to the organization on how you think about people and where they matter, so much to the organization on how you think about people and where they matter.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Now, at the end of the day, people get it. If we're run, like during the great recession, if we're not making it like we've got to make a choice here, but the point there is just in like how transparently clear about it. Leaders often spend so much time getting all spun up over the right words and they lost the opportunity to connect with people and I've had so many employees over the years. Someone was like I want to appreciate it. You just tell me how it is. It doesn't have to be pretty, but at least I don't have to guess what you actually need.

Speaker 1: 12:33

And I think that's what's at stake here. Now, the flip side of it, since we're HR professionals, is that there's this whole kind of HR label thing that we have to go through to make sure we say the right things. I think you can still do that. You just can't get too spun up with ourselves.

Speaker 3: 12:48

A couple of our other guests in line, I think, with this collective thinking of it's okay to be transparent. Even if you're following all the compliance, you can still connect on a human to human level. One of our guests had mentioned, for example, his approach was hey, you're not going to like this, I absolutely don't like it, and it's okay to acknowledge like for lack of a better word, so I apologize the turd in the room, so let's acknowledge it together and get through it together, but to your good point, making sure we're continuing to connect on a humanity level that these are people.

Speaker 1: 13:23

Yeah, One of the stories I remember is that I did have to reduce the number of people, and there's one particular team that got impacted and I just broke down crying, talking to them. The director like called me up after just said but I really appreciate it, but you also got to do your job and it was really just an amazing moment where you know she and the team appreciated the humanity, but you got a job to do, so Get on with it too. Back to the balance, right.

Speaker 2: 13:48

You know, it strikes me, though, the idea of being seen. You talk about people being developed holistically as well, but when we look at HR, I don't think it's set up to do that. We're set up to do more of the compliance, more of the block and tackle. When you look at the amount of funding HR teams get, it's such a small percentage of the overall funding of the organization. It's not a knock on HR leaders at all, because I think HR leaders have the best intentions. They're trying to do the best they can with what they have. There's a lot going on, yeah, and part of me wonders and I'd love to get your take on it in order to really set up or operationalize being seen, holistic development, looking at talent differently, do we have to secede from the union Meaning compliance goes over here to legal and then talent becomes a different beast in and of itself, almost like the human team or the product innovation team? We need to separate in order to really do this, or can we still go the way we're going?

Speaker 1: 14:51

Yeah, we have like this classic mindset around either or right, we have the compliance engine, all the process-based kind of work we're like the people shoveling coal in the coal fuel engine or train and we're just heads down, we just got to keep this thing moving. We're doing that work all day long and then we think, or it'd be really great if we could be focused on the people, and the reality is they're all integrated right. So then it's a matter of how you do the process work, and that's really easy to say conceptually or theoretically, but it really is. It's around how do you combine the two? So, for example, we know empathy is one of those kind of capabilities that bring the two together right. Authenticity, transparency, and when you think about those, we're all talking about those human kind of attributes that actually make us who we are. And that's the heart of it, because people get the engine part of it. There is compliance stuff that happened. There are processes we have to run. It's just that whether or not we still feel like the processes have a soul in it.

Speaker 1: 15:50

So, for example, this is one thing in one of my past jobs is I remember writing just said you know what, like it'd be really great to get transparency around what the corporation has budgeted for bonuses, because you say it's zero to 15%, but we budget it for six, right? So we're here and I'm giving a performance review and the person got 7% and they feel like they're a failure because it's not 15. 7% compared to 6% is actually pretty decent looking right In a scheme of things, I said. And then I'm talking to a professional, an employee, that's looking for $2,000 and because they're going to build a cedar deck in their backyard and they just want to buy the materials but they're going to do the labor and that money means a lot to the individual, but we don't have a way to talk about what the sort of the constraints of the system say.

Speaker 1: 16:42

Wind forward, that organization actually started saying, like here's what we think your bonus is going to be based on, what we can plan for, and you're up or down from that. Now everybody goes oh, I can live with that, but that's a place where you have the constraints of the process and the system. That needs the rigor of the financial model that's, allocating a set amount of resources and a transparency approach that allows people to then understand. Now I have a better idea of where I match up right now. Different conversation. Whether or not they like the evaluation or the assessment, that takes a lot of stress out of it and takes a lot of anxiety out of the process.

Speaker 2: 17:19

I love what you said about the soul. We have to put soul back into some of these processes Benefits, comps, conversation, even layoffs. Right, you can have soul, you can see people in those. When you see this done really well, how do the leaders or the organizations really truly view their people?

Speaker 1: 17:39

So what I generally see in organizations is that most leaders have a good concept of what they're after in terms of goodness.

Speaker 1: 17:49

They have the right concepts in place, so the messaging is right, but what they don't realize is that they themselves, the organizations, the functions, are stuck in the system of the organization and they haven't figured out how to disrupt that sort of state or to change that slowly over time.

Speaker 1: 18:05

So then we're in this place of messaging over here Because it sounds really great, but operating over here all day long, and that's the part when you look at it saying, hey, we love people, you got to go right. That's the kind of stuff that creates that dissonance in the organization. So what really has to happen is we have to talk about what the constraints are. We have to talk about what we're trying to balance out in the organization, and I think that's where I think again, our professors, our employees, they get it, they understand it, they appreciate things really, really deeply. The other kind of funny thing I think about if it really created connection and community, you would know what people feel like they need to be seen and to be understood, versus kind of stalking on fishbowl to see what kind of throwing shades going on. I do think organizations understand it at some level and they have great mechanisms, councils and so forth, pulse surveys and all that. But again, are we enamored with the process and the activity or do we really want to know what's going on?

Speaker 2: 19:06

The older I get, I will tell you. I think so much comes down to fundamentals like basics 25 years ago or something. Somebody wrote that book, everything I Needed to Know. I Learned in Kindergarten and it's this just idea of, yes, connect with people, talk to people, ask them what they need, ask them what they want. A lot of times people get really fearful of doing that because they don't know if someone's going to ask them for something they can't give or they don't know how to be perfect in that dialogue or conversation. But all they really need to do is start with care. People feel that when you start with care I get that from you, mike that you give care, energy, you give very big care, thank you. I want to talk about this idea of developing people holistically, especially when we're talking about AI. Mel and I were just talking about Klarna, for example, who they're going to lay off. What was that, mel? Like 85% of their business.

Speaker 3: 20:19

They just laid off a bunch of folks, got down to half their workforce and I believe they're hoping to get down further within the next year.

Speaker 2: 20:26

Yes, there's two energies that are happening in the world. I'm getting very woo-woo, forgive me, but right, there's this one energy of scarcity. Oh my gosh, ai is going to take jobs. We're going to start seeing a lot of organizations making big moves around completely replace humans with AI, and then you even wrote about this in the book too. Then we're looking at people who want to augment. What does that look like when this AI conversation is happening, where we can look at it as scarcity or we can look at it as augmentation? If I'm a Jane Doe employee, what does it look like in an AI world to be developed holistically?

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yeah. So there's a couple of things. One is, when it comes to AI in particular, I get the sense that a lot of business leaders feel like there's one really good question to ask around how do we adopt AI? And I think that's a question. I think it's not even the best question. I think it's a starting question and I think the exercise that we all need to take is what are the next 5, 10, 17 questions to ask around AI and the implications for the organization.

Speaker 1: 21:37

When I think about it and I step back, we've been surrounded by computer technology, computing technology, innovation for a long time. We keep talking about the speed and the disruption for decades now, and there's a point that says we're not really talking about anything new here. So what's really going on here? So the part of it says to me we should get over it in some way and then start thinking what is the intersection of AI and humans? That's one of the really key questions.

Speaker 1: 22:04

Holistically, it's going to be really around coming back again to these fundamentalists around what does it mean to actually see the employee as a person? And I actually think the answer for that really depends on the organization. That it is because different organizations are doing different things right and there's different kinds of labor and different kinds of work, and holistically might mean that we need to do things that are fun. That celebration is actually a really key part of our culture, so we may do that. Other things may be. I need the latest science, I need the latest technical knowledge and I need you to help me to get there, because that's super valuable to me as the profession that I'm in.

Speaker 3: 22:42

That's one of it.

Speaker 1: 22:42

There's a number of levers that we can use to think about seeing people holistically, but one of them is going to come down to is what are we trying to achieve with our people? And just having clarity about that. You don't have to be all things to all people, but having clarity about what we're trying to accomplish, I think, is super, super important. For example, if we think that it's really important to have a really great hiring process, let's say, focus on skills, understand really what skills you need and what the skills are in the marketplace. If you really think it's important for your organization to train and to develop those skills, then train them. If you think that retaining people is important to the organization and you want your people to understand that, then create some kind of mobility, not because you have to react to their need, but because it's really important to be thoughtful around how they're engaged across the whole organization.

Speaker 1: 23:33

The other thing in convincing people holistically is we often start off with the most basic set of needs. So where do we go when we want to make sure that you know your value? We start off with benefits and compensation, right, and you take math instead of hierarchy of needs. We're talking about things that address our abilities to make sure we have health care, that we can buy food, that we can buy shelter, rent an apartment, buy a home, and then we understand but miss sort of those kind of self-actualization things.

Speaker 1: 24:03

The things that people desire more and this gets back to the holistic thing is that people want to develop. They want to grow on some level, and that's beyond just training, because training is about skills. But there's this other appetite or other need, so to develop, they want to grow on some level, and that's beyond just training, because training is about skills, but there's this other appetite or other need, so to speak, that actually goes beyond that. And that's where I think the opportunity is to see people holistically is really understand well, what are you after Beyond kind of the work gig you got and the pay you get? What do you want out of life? Right, and the answer is going to really vary depending on the organization and the people who go into that organization. But I think the truism that we see in the research shows this and Gardner talks about this, right, and they talk about the human deal is that people are looking for a very different set of things than what people were looking at 20 years ago, for sure.

Speaker 2: 24:48

Yeah, I think about this a lot. What does the future organization need to look like in order to do this? What are some of the big ticket structural changes that would need to happen in order for this to be the employee experience?

Speaker 1: 25:03

Philosophically, the first thing that's going to happen is a mindset shift in leaders Leaders Okay, Because actually I think the structural shift will follow this ability to imagine what things could look like. So, for example, people talk a lot about workforce planning and that can mean a lot of different things. For a lot of organizations it just means resource management. But what has it happened? Or what needs to happen if you want to get structural changes around how you recruit, how you create opportunities for people is you actually have to imagine. There is a model out there, for example is that if we get people that have the right attributes and we can develop those attributes and then we can develop the skills, we can actually create a workforce that has greater agility, for example. But today's practice is keeping most of us grounded in buying today's skills and then getting all kind of worked up around tomorrow's skills. So then we get into this hyper motion around that we need to do training and rapid upskilling and we got a whole set of terms for those kinds of activities and they're all OK. They're all the OK responses and good responses. But can you imagine a system where everybody believes in the ecosystem of work? It says I may only have it for a year to three years and then you're going to move on, because people do. We know there's a lot of research that shows this, but that actually has huge implications for how we develop people.

Speaker 1: 26:25

The question for all of us is can we actually develop people in a way knowing that they're going to leave? Because if we do that, there's a whole bunch of structural changes have to happen. Like we have to rethink the work. What does it mean to have work that's being operated or executed by people who aren't there all for a long time? And we know there are certain industries, say like logistics, call centers, where, like they know what turnover looks like and so they actually have had to come up with a work model. So the work gets structured in a way that kind of fits that demographic pattern. But that's the kind of structure thing I think could potentially take place much more broadly in corporate America. It's hard to move because there's a lot of moving parts, there's a lot of day-to-day operating results that we need to deliver, and I think you can do both. You can find those areas where you can begin to slowly shift.

Speaker 2: 27:12

It's interesting I think this was in Ashley's book. This idea of an organization would be a state, a team would be a neighborhood.

Speaker 1: 27:21

It did.

Speaker 2: 27:21

And that you're much more likely to make change at the neighborhood level. And there's responsibility I would say responsibility to your very good point around the neighborhood level and I know that Mel and I wanted to talk about. What are some things that we can do at the enterprise level, at the team level, at the individual level.

Speaker 1: 27:43

Yeah, so it's a great analogy. I'll start because if you take that notion it goes right back to that idea around is the team, is the learning unit. It is also where community and connection is most tangible. So one of the things that has to happen is how do you bring that level of tangible community and connection as you go up the organization? It's what has to happen.

Speaker 1: 28:08

It's a really tough thing to say do this and it all magically happened. The really basic question that the executive team has to ask is what do we want to accomplish with our people that's going to make us a better organization tomorrow and it integrates well with the business outcomes that we're accountable for. That sounds tactical, but I would tell you that is a really hard thing to answer. When leaders can answer that and get it down to one or two things and you know what happens when one or two things comes like to seven to 13. No, really, what's like the one or two things you're going to do that actually moves your people In what direction do you want to move in?

Speaker 2: 28:49

I've been thinking a lot lately about this idea of simplicity, because when I've seen organizations do this really well, they're not doing 15 things in shallow depth. They're doing one, two, maybe three things and they're going really hard on them in terms of yes, campaign and strat and funding them, but also in process, in the way that we build workflows, the way that we talk and the language that we use, all around these things to the point where their employees can talk about it and they know it and they feel it. It's very hard to do with 10 things.

Speaker 1: 29:24

This is going to sound harsh, and it's not meant to be harsh, but it feels more like an observation. But we tend to not focus on the one or two things because I think it actually takes a lot of courage to do. It does, and it doesn't mean that leaders are feeling less powerful or sinful, it just takes a dimension of courage. And I remember one CEO who just said we kept saying and to your point is the most simplistic message. He goes if we get our culture right, the rest will come Like we'll win in the marketplace, we'll win clients, we'll sell bigger projects. And you could, just you could feel it Like he, just he knew in his soul what the values were, he knew in his spirit, like what he was after and what he saw. And you, just you go. Yeah, I get it, you didn't get spun up on what are we on now? Like 7A of the nine point strategy, on the five year plan that gets revised every six months. It wasn't known sounding like that. It was just like this really simple view of the world.

Speaker 3: 30:24

I have a question.

Speaker 1: 30:25

Sure.

Speaker 3: 30:26

How do we crack this nut? Because I feel like we hear this story consistently, that there's a need even for the CEO, to have courage. But if you're leading the organization, why do you need to have courage? You can say, no, this is how we want to do it. So what's preventing leaders from taking that stand as a collective and saying, yeah, we're all in on this, we don't need to have courage because this is what we believe, so it's not. Again. I keep feeling this, even at the leadership level, the C-suite level, this lack of psychological safety to say this is what we need and this is what we should focus on. What makes it so challenging for people to take a hard stance.

Speaker 1: 31:10

My theory around this is that organizations as systems have different or varying permissions.

Speaker 3: 31:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:16

So some organization will give a lot of permission to its leaders to have courage around how they want to drive and how they want to lead, and other organizations don't.

Speaker 1: 31:26

And I think the leaders who prosper in whatever organization they are, I think they figured out right one way or the other, either consciously, with lots of self-awareness, or they just found what was comfortable and found a way to prosper in the environment they're in. But what I would say to any leader at any level that if you're not feeling that sort of integration of yourself and your values with the organization's values, then it's something to question and to think about. Dear colleague john blumberg writes about this around the return on integrity and he talks a lot about personal values actually have to really align with the organizational values and that's a journey. But I would say sometimes what happens is that leaders are like all of us, get caught up in the systems that we're in and so they only have, or feel like they only have, certain permission to go a certain way. The transformational leader not meaning about creating transformation organization, but the leader who's transforming themselves will find a path. They'll find a way to rise above that, to transcend them.

Speaker 3: 32:29

It's just so interesting even to hear that there are certain organizations that still don't value that perspective in this day and age, with all of the research that shows when you commit to your people, you will see business results. I think I ask every guest why do you think that is? Why do you think there are still some organizations that don't see the value?

Speaker 1: 32:54

Why do you think that is? Why do you think there are still some organizations that don't see the value? It comes down again to this view around what matters most. Right in its simplest terms. And if you're someone who's wired by power and you're wired by money, and that's what gets you excited and energized, that's what gets you energized and you're going to operate that way. If you're wired a little bit differently, then you have different set of priorities and actions. And here's the thing that I think we know theoretically in all our leadership development, research and so forth is that it takes a diversity of leaders to make it happen, but most organizations tend to put in place a leader who looks just like everybody else, because that is the ethos of the system. That is what we value in the system is that we value making money, we value power, we value the political game or what have you. And again, not all organizations are wired that way. That's one pattern.

Speaker 3: 33:45

Yeah, what advice would you give to that leader that has a mismatch with their organization but they want to try to make a dent in a positive direction? What advice would you give to that person?

Speaker 1: 33:59

Yeah, I love American landscape portrait, like just because there's this notion that humans are really small and the landscape of kind of the continent was just so daunting. And without getting into sort of the historical politics around, who was here first? Because I appreciate that discussion very much but built into the psyche, I think, of what we do sometimes is around this notion around that it could be lonely, right, you could be out there foraging your way. But what's so exciting about it, I think, for the leader who's up for this, is that you can be in the worst set of circumstances and have the best time of your life Because you have this authority to tell the story that you want to tell, to cram the path or kind of create the path that you have.

Speaker 1: 34:45

And I think what the irony of this statement is that there are a whole lot of people watching, taking notes and maybe following along at the same time and I think every organization, as homogenous as it might feel, there's this huge diversity of potential in people that actually see this and want something more. That's what's so amazing is that you could be in a really tough situation, but the arc and the joy is freeing out a path through all of that, even if you don't get to the change that you would like to have gotten to. Is the change the goal or is the journey? It's the destination of the journey more important, but I would say the journey is more important Totally makes me wonder.

Speaker 2: 35:25

Just an offshoot point I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I'm on a journey myself. This idea of work because so much of work has been around quarter by quarter results, revenue, shareholder return, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's profit driven. Yeah, point blank Done. One of the things that I'm excited about AI is that it's going to force conversations around. How do we view people, how do we think about augmenting people and enable them to do their best work? Because all the other administrative schmutz could be taken care of. There's so many opportunities for those discussions. I'm optimistic about it. With what's happening in the ether, can we swing the pendulum from everything has to be around profit and rev a little bit over to people and balance it more?

Speaker 1: 36:11

Yeah, but again, we're not on either end of the pole right.

Speaker 2: 36:14

We can't be, we shouldn't be.

Speaker 1: 36:16

We're somewhere that we're trying to figure out what the balance is of both of these things, and we all live and benefit from being in a capitalist society. So, whether or not people want to admit it, we're all capitalists at some level, and that's an okay thing. The question you're on is then again, like where you're getting to is what is the balance for that, for how we think about people? So back to the ai. The question is how do we redesign work? What's tomorrow's work? Because we know tomorrow's work isn't going to be today's work. But if we only think about replacing today's work with ai and automation, we can miss the question.

Speaker 1: 36:52

Yeah, so we do that and we should be asking okay, what are we doing tomorrow? It's not today. And that part's really exciting because, look, if you look back around for these analogies, if you look back around when you had horse-drawn carriages moving people around, just think of all the technology changes that are taking place we're going to find a way. And I think, through all of this, what's really exciting is this talent discussion has come to the foreground, because we all recognize that people are really a critical part of the equation and while we think that there's slogans or initiatives to talk about workforce planning or kind of talent and culture and different things like that. And all those things indicate is that we understand there's a new equation, that we have. That part gives me a lot of hope.

Speaker 3: 37:57

This is our favorite part, Mike.

Speaker 1: 38:00

Yep, okay, I'm prepared. The fun part is.

Speaker 3: 38:03

You hopefully don't need to be so it's just a group of questions. Yes, no one word answers or a longer answer. If you're like this needs a longer response, that's totally fine. That's some of our best conversation, but we'll just go through the series and the point is first thing that pops in mind. If that sounds good, sure, okay, what are you currently reading, or I'll say listening, in case you're a fan of audiobooks.

Speaker 1: 38:28

Yeah, I am a reader because I just I absorb it sticks a little bit better. There's two things I'm currently reading. One is it's the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory by Tim Alberta. I don't know if you know this book, but it's about the Christian nationalist movement and how it's taking place. It's a long read about halfway through but it's a really fascinating bit of journalism that he's done. The other one is by a friend and colleague. It's called Leading to Greatness, by Jim Reed, who was the CHRO of Rogers in Toronto.

Speaker 3: 38:55

What song is on repeat for you? Oh?

Speaker 1: 38:59

I got two. One is a young artist named Jalen Nwunda, it's called I think it's called Come Around and Love Me, and the other one is an older one. It's a jazz tune. It's by Stan Getz and Oscar Peterson. It's called Tour's End.

Speaker 3: 39:11

Many people feel their companies don't care about their growth. From your experience, what are the top two signs that a company genuinely invests in its employees? So, like you're interviewing, you're researching, you're talking to people, what are the two big giveaways that they're truly investing in their employees?

Speaker 1: 39:31

Yeah, the way I think about this or feel about this is twofold. One is you'll hear and see an excitement and that the employees see a connection around what they're doing in their day job with who they are. The subtext of that is, or the vision that you may get a sense of is and who they're becoming Right, one which is related to excitement word, but you have this real sort of palpable sense of energy around that they're actually learning and growing, that their job is not just a job but it's actually a building block along those lines around where they want to get to. It could be career and it could be beyond career.

Speaker 3: 40:11

I love that. The thought of like their face lights up, because we've all seen that right, when you've had an interview and you ask someone about their experience, you can really you see the shift, someone who truly loves it. Okay, ai, the big elephant in the room. Ai and how it's going to impact people. What's the one thing an employee can do today to avoid being left in the dust and stay relevant? What's one thing they should just do if nothing else.

Speaker 1: 40:39

Okay. So there's a tactical thing If you're organizing, or two tactical things. If your organization's got like LinkedIn Learning, for example, or you could go on the web or what have you, you need to learn fundamentals about AI. Go and do that, it's great. The other thing, what I would do, is it's available, but use Copilot, use ChatGPT and integrate it into what you do in your day-to-day and you'll soon find out, at least in this kind of the large language model stuff. There's just so much opportunity for how it can enhance your work process and how you use your time and energy to get work done. And there's this whole thing around that. Microsoft puts out research around work, and one of the things he said, one of the skills to learn, is how you do delegation, ai delegation, which is basically how you prompt AI right, and especially in this sort of co-pilot context, and I thought that was so interesting, because they're learning how to get the answer that they feel like they're looking for by getting the right prompt.

Speaker 3: 41:39

Microsoft does offer really cool ongoing education for folks on AI, so highly recommend it for anyone. There, you go, yeah, okay. What's one thing that's giving you a lot of joy these days?

Speaker 1: 41:52

Oh, my goodness, wow. There's a lot of things, but I'm a little bit of a fitness kind of person. I have this routine every morning that I do core exercises for 30 to 40 minutes and while it's not always comfortable for me, it brings me a lot of joy because I see the reward of the habit that I've worked on. So that's probably one thing that's top of mind.

Speaker 3: 42:13

Nice, I like it. Who's a leader you really admire?

Speaker 1: 42:17

Okay. So I don't know if I have a leader that I really admire, and the reason being is that I think leaders are situational. The qualities of leaders depend on the situation they're in. That said, I'll give you an example of a leader that I do admire in the situation that he's in, and that's President Volodymyr Zelensky and what he's doing to keep Ukraine together and fight the war. Would I ask President Zelensky to run the transformation around our AI strategy for an organization? Don't know, don't know. It's a different set of capabilities, different situations. For me it's like a multiple answer, but I think there's a lot of leaders in a lot of levels. They have really fantastic qualities.

Speaker 2: 42:57

Mike, it was so great to talk with you today.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited and I enjoyed the privilege of being able to share my thoughts and feelings with you.

Speaker 3: 43:10

Hey friends, this episode of your Work Friends was hosted by Francesca Ranieri and myself, Mel Plett.

Speaker 2: 43:16

This episode was produced and edited by Mel Plett and myself, Francesca Ranieri.

Speaker 3: 43:22

Our theme music is by Pink Zebra and you can follow us over on all of our social media platforms Instagram, tiktok, youtube and, if you're so inclined, joined us over on LinkedIn in our large and growing community, and you can email us at friend@yourworkfriends.com, or visit us on yourworkfriends.com. Also, folks, please like, subscribe and leave a review. If you enjoyed this episode, and if you really enjoyed it, please share with a work friend or two. Thanks friends, thanks friends.

Trauma-Informed Leadership

Your Work Friends Podcast: Trauma-Informed Leadership with Deborah Lee

Safety builds trust…

And leaders shape the spaces we work in. In an era where employee wellbeing is paramount, leaders are increasingly recognizing the need for more compassionate and psychologically safe work environments. 

But what if I told you that over 80% of people globally have experienced some form of trauma? This statistic, underscores the urgent need for trauma-informed leadership in our workplaces. With guest expert Deborah Lee, we unpack what trauma-informed leadership means, why it matters, and how to lead in a way that heals—not harms.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone building trust, culture, or change, and for any leader wanting to create healthy workplaces.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

Statistics show that over 80% of people have been through some kind of trauma globally, so none of us will ever be able to really escape trauma. Once you've lived a life, you've gone through trauma, and that informs how we perform at work. It informs how we show up at work and even as a leader, it informs how you lead.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Hi friends, hey Mel, hey Debra, what's going on?

Speaker 1: 0:39

I'm having the time of my life talking to the both of you right now, so really excited. We get that a lot. We get that a lot.

Speaker 2: 0:44

We get that a lot Same Listener friends.

Speaker 3: 0:48

with us today is Deborah Lee. She is the founder of Creature A and they specialize in creating mindful and trauma-informed workplaces, and we are super excited to learn from Deborah today all about embodied leadership and trauma-informed workplace leadership. So, debra, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that lovely introduction, mel. I'm really excited to be talking with the both of you today, happy to share in any way that I can.

Speaker 3: 1:18

Let's dive right in. We would love to hear a little more about your personal journey here. How did you get into trauma-informed care and a focus on embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 1:28

Yeah, just to share my personal journey. I walked out of an abusive relationship in 2021. And when I went to the various institutions that you would normally expect to get support and help like law enforcement, hospital, even church institutions I just found that people weren't really understanding the gravity of the situation or dealing with it with the urgency that was required, and oftentimes I felt like there were real gaps that were met and issues around like justice and support and people were really understanding what was at stake. And even then, the main people that I got help from ultimately were people who had a lot of experience in the area of trauma, for example, a social worker who has witnessed a lot of these sorts of cases of domestic violence, and she could actually break down to me what were some of the processes involved. And then, when I understood a lot of these dynamics were about power and about control. That's when my eyes were open and I was able to have a really clearer picture of how to move forward with my life. And then, in the process of it, I could use that lens, understand why people relate it to other people a certain way, for example in a conversation, why people might just, for example, not even address the questions that's raised or move on to another subject or be dismissive or use jokes or sarcasm to deflect, and I did a lot of research around emotional abuse. I did a lot of research around trauma and one of the books that really changed my life was the book the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, who is a psychiatrist who has been on the forefront of trauma for over 30 years. He's treated all sorts of patients with any number of mental health issues, from bipolar disorder to borderline personality disorder and major depressive episodes, and one of the things that really left a very deep impression on me is that a lot of the common core roots of all of these mental health disorders is the fact that all of them have what you call complex post-traumatic stress disorder. So this is a bit different from the classic PTSD, as you know, like maybe you get into an accident and then you lose a limb and then your life is forever changed.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Cptsd is something that arises within relationship and in these relationships where there's an imbalance of power, there's often abuse or emotional neglect, often abuse or emotional neglect. And a lot of this starts in your early childhood and it's shaped by your caregivers and how you relate to them, the coping mechanisms you developed as a child to be able to survive in an environment that maybe was abusive or was emotionally neglectful, and this has an impact on how you relate to others in life and your attachment styles later on as an adult, and even the choices that you make. Neuroscience has shown that it actually has a real and felt impact on your brain functioning, so you can think about how that affects the prefrontal cortex, how a person makes decisions and even things like who they get attached to, how they find a life partner, for example, and so reading this book really helped me understand myself, my own life trajectory, and it also helped me understand what it means to be cut off from a sense of embodied living, what it means to be cut off from the messages that your body is signaling to you, because it's so easy to intellectualize and just live up here. When, as a child, you were filled with anxiety and anguish right in an environment that was unstable or chaotic and nobody was there to address it for you, nobody was there to help you make sense of it. So you learn to cut it off, and this is what Bessel van der Kolk talks about in his book. They get.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Survivors of complex post-traumatic stress disorder get so used to these unremitting signals of anxiety and distress from a very young age, and because they don't have any other option, they can't pick and choose their caregivers or pluck themselves out of an environment that is destructive or filled with chaos and abuse. They don't get that choice right. So what they have to do at the end of the day is learn to dissociate, and so you develop those coping mechanisms, and it's very helpful for when you're a kid and you just need to survive. But as an adult it could mean that you become like dismissive, cut off, not in touch with your, your feelings, emotionally tone, deaf to yourself, and even in your relationships at work or even within intimate relationships, you develop trauma based responses and you might be familiar with fight, flight, freeze, and then there's also fawn right, that's another one, and then the two that are like more emergent, discovered by the National Institute for Clinical Application of Behavioral Medicine. Expounds upon is Attached, cry for Help, and then the final one is Collapse and Submit. So a lot of these ways that people behave.

Speaker 1: 6:41

If you really trace it back over time and look at their trauma map, it's rooted a lot in unresolved things that happened in the past, and the key thing to note is that, even though you may have gone through a lot of abuse when you're a kid, you could still be very high functioning, you could still really perform in life.

Speaker 1: 7:01

But what might happen to you at one point is that something happens there are a few things that could happen to you, something life-changing or you have a trigger and then suddenly you start to unravel, and then that's when people are forced in many ways to confront their own trauma, to confront their own unresolved issues from the past.

Speaker 1: 7:21

And so that brought me to a space of wanting to. First of all, my experience as an abuse survivor and going through the various institutions and seeing the gaps there. That's what got me asking questions. And then, when I understood the mind-body connection, when I read the Body Keeps the Score, is when I really realized, hey, this is a very valuable roadmap for others to have, not just to support other people, but even to understand their own selves, because I think the tendency for a lot of people is just to end up finding fault with themselves and like blaming themselves and beating themselves up, which you know it's not very helpful, and, at the end of the day, until you can extend a kindness to yourself, it's actually very hard to extend that same kindness to other people in a meaningful way.

Speaker 3: 8:07

Yeah, I'm really sorry that you experienced something like that. What inspired you, I guess, to take what you learned about yourself and that understanding and bring that into the workplace?

Speaker 1: 8:22

I think once you go through something like that, you can't unsee it, Things through a very different lens, and then you understand power dynamics. In a way there's a before and after, when you are in a position where you have been traumatized by an intimate partner, and then you see how the systems reinforce injustice around it and how the truth gets completely obfuscated at times. You realize once you see, you see it I started to see things in a way that maybe a lot of people miss. And then you see this playing out at workplaces and then you understand whoa hostile and you would not expect that, even in a corporate setting. And I just realized that whatever you're not dealing with in your personal life, it will spill out into your work life. As much as you might try to like put your mask up, it finds its way to seep out.

Speaker 1: 9:13

And I realized that, at the end of the day, what people seek at work is still human connection, and that is what creates more productive workplaces. I hesitate to use that word productive, because I don't want people to just focus on that as the bottom line. But at the end of the day, like when there's a culture of collaboration, when there's a culture of trust and safety, psychological safety, and when people are able to feel free to bring their whole selves to work. Once those foundations are set in place, it actually creates a much, much healthier workplace where people actually look forward to going to work, because you're not going to work to be a machine. You're going to work because you want to feel a sense of meaning, enjoyment in what you do and connection with other people on your team, and so a trauma-informed workplace will equip you to be able to have those key fundamentals and to be able to connect with your co-workers in a way that's meaningful and enjoyable.

Speaker 3: 10:10

Yeah, we talk about that all the time.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I feel like we have this really old archetype of power because, to your point, a lot of abusive relationships.

Speaker 2: 10:18

The dynamic is about power and the way we leverage power, the way we embody power at work, the archetype of the leader as control and command, and I know obviously we have a lot more definitions of leadership now. I get that. But the way organizations are structured, the ways of working around organizations and, quite honestly, even what we promote in organizations around people that come across as confident, strong, by any means necessarily like those things still are incented. And so it's an interesting discussion on power, because I feel like there's still very much an old archetype of power living, breathing foundationally in corporate America. It's evolving. It's not every place, I get it, but it's still pretty old school.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Yeah, I think it's hard to run away from that. I think in all human relations, even if you look at animals, there's always some kind of hierarchy. You look at apes, chimpanzees, you see how the hierarchy it's almost intrinsic. My company is called Creature Ray, by the way. I named it Creature Ray because I wanted to capture the nuances around how people are.

Speaker 1: 11:25

We're social animals and in some ways conditioned to behave like that. It's like survival of the fittest. But then also the social element means that as humans, as a more highly evolved species, we look for something more than just that kind of old school power structure that animals have. We look for connection, we look for authenticity, we look for meaning and purpose, and that's what differentiates us from a chip right, a chip just interested only in where its next meal is coming from or who it's going to mate with. But as human beings there's something deeper than that, and I think that's where we're talking about a trauma-informed workplace where we understand that we're not just here to work, but we're also here because we're seeking ways of relating to each other. That is effective for the work, but it also is meaningful for us as human beings.

Speaker 3: 12:17

Yeah, how did your experiences really shape your understanding of leadership in the workplace, the power dynamics that we're going through, what made you focus in the leadership space specifically when I started doing?

Speaker 1: 12:32

a lot of research around abuses, around organizational culture, around workplace bullying, around just even gaslighting and psychopathic behavior. That's when I realized, hey, hey, there needs to be. Number one a very clear understanding of trauma, what it is, trauma-informed care, as well as like policies and guidelines as to how to support people. Number one we've been through that within the workplace, because statistics show that over 80 percent of people have been through some kind of trauma globally. So none of us will ever be able to really escape trauma.

Speaker 1: 13:06

Once you've lived a life, you've gone through trauma. And that informs how we perform at work. It informs how we show up at work and even as a leader, it informs how you lead. So if you went through all these things yourself and you're like I earned my stripes this way and you never work through how, in some ways, it shaped and maybe even traumatized you, then you're going to be like I'm going to inflict that on other people. You may not consciously think that, but that's what you're going to act out right until and until and unless you work through your own stuff or you gain the awareness around what trauma informed care is, what trauma is, maybe drawn out your own trauma map and understand the mind-body connection. Practice good self-care. It's really hard for you to show up as a leader. That is not course, especially if that's how you were groomed into becoming a leader.

Speaker 3: 14:00

Yeah, I am a huge proponent of therapy. Therapy is good for everyone, especially when you hear statistics like 80% of people globally have experienced some level of trauma and there's always. I know this seems like a cliche quote that gets passed around all the time, but it's like being aware of everyone's going through something. But there's real impact there, because I think to your point. When you're in psychologically unsafe environments in the workplace, you're consistently being re-traumatized.

Speaker 1: 14:28

And the real danger is not being able to identify it.

Speaker 3: 14:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:32

Like when you're so stuck in it it's hard for you to even see it, and then you might even start blaming yourself or internalizing it. One of the key ways that even in the legal profession right like how they train a lot of these young, bright-eyed lawyers is inculcate into them a sense of you're never good enough. But they don't tell you that straight out, but they set the bar like here, and then when you reach it for it, it's a sense that keeps getting reinforced and then it's almost like brainwashing.

Speaker 3: 14:58

The goalposts constantly move and then they're always questioning their abilities. Like you see that in so many different work environments, and it's almost like an emotional abuse that happens over and over. We hear it often, francesca, you and I just covered some headlines recently where it was talking about there's that right to disconnect law that's been passed in some global locations, but the US is considering it, or they're at least watching it very closely, because people have said it's like a badge of honor to be in burnout to get to where they are, but it's those environments that continue to perpetuate this. You're not good enough. You need to work harder. You need to work 80-hour weeks to succeed.

Speaker 2: 15:42

It's just not sustainable, and we're seeing it with the well-being numbers. We've been following well-being numbers for a while. Well-being just keeps dropping and dropping and dropping. There's a lot of factors to that. But to your very good point, debra, if you have leaders that don't understand how to not re-traumatize people constantly, it's not going to get any better. There's no safety net.

Speaker 1: 16:05

And how do they not re-traumatize people unless they themselves, on some level, have worked through their own trauma?

Speaker 3: 16:08

yeah, yeah gotta do the work can you explain what embodied leadership means in simple terms? Explain it to us like we're five. What are the characteristics of an embodied leader?

Speaker 1: 16:31

So basically an embodied leader is somebody who is aware of the mind-body connection and has done the work and gotten the psychoeducation around that, who takes care of himself and shows up at work with presence and authenticity. I don't know if that's simple enough for a five-year-old maybe a very smart five-year-old.

Speaker 3: 16:55

It's one of my favorite subreddits. Explained to me like I'm five, I just think, okay, if you can do that, it's a great way to say it. That was great.

Speaker 1: 17:03

I really highly recommend, if you're a leader, to do the work, because you're going to have so much impact on the team, the teams that you lead, the clients that you meet and just everybody that comes into your sphere.

Speaker 2: 17:16

There's a statistic that the person that has the most impact on your mental health is most likely not your spouse. It's your manager.

Speaker 1: 17:22

Yes, yes, and I have seen that your boss has the biggest impact on your mental health, and it is absolutely true.

Speaker 1: 17:29

I can tell you from personal experience that that's definitely true and it really shapes the way that you show up at work. It really shapes your values even because, at the end of the day, a lot of us just want to do a good job right. A lot of us want to show up in the best way that we can with good work ethic. We want to please our bosses right. If their values are like very different from yours, if their style of leadership is coercive, your psyche is going to take a beating.

Speaker 3: 18:00

Think about the statement that's commonplace, that is really sad is, and even the memes and jokes. You see it all the time like memes and jokes about oh I've got the Sunday scaries. I'm ready for the day when that doesn't exist anymore for people in the workplace.

Speaker 2: 18:15

The thing that makes me really nervous, when leaders haven't done the work to your great point, when they don't operate with trauma-informed care. These people have your livelihood on the line because their evaluation of your performance, of how you show up, is directly tied to your salary, your benefits sometimes, and so it can feel there's so much at stake on this one person and on this one relationship. And if that's not trauma-informed, or if that person's not handling that with care, woof. So what is trauma-informed? Or if that person's not handling that with care woof. So what is trauma-informed care, especially as a manager? What is it?

Speaker 1: 18:52

Trauma-informed care is basically understanding that most of us have some kind of trauma and understanding that sometimes, especially when we're in a situation where there's a lot of stress or there are triggers involved, that we might act out our trauma. So what does that mean? It means that you might respond in any one of those six ways that I mentioned earlier Fight, flight, freeze, fawn attach, cry for help, collapse and submit the ones that all of us know about. Fight flight, freeze, yeah. And I think that as human beings, on a very kind of day-to-day basis, relational level, we recognize that we can intuit at times, like without, maybe on a non-verbal basis, like when somebody is in freeze, yeah, yeah, maybe over a phone call, when somebody is just completely silent, you're like hello, are you there, is everything okay? So that you can't see there's that element where the nonverbal effect is not there. So trauma informed care just basically provides you a framework for relating to people in a way where you don't immediately start associating behavior with character or what's wrong with you, so to speak, as to what happened to you, right? So it's not saying that we need to know your entire life history or we need to know intimate details, but we want to know in the present what's triggering you, what is making it hard for you to show up fully, for example, to just be present or to ask questions that show that you're engaged and leaning into the work.

Speaker 1: 20:33

So if somebody's not doing that, instead of just saying oh, she's lazy, or like she's not good enough for this role, or she's being passive, aggressive or whatever story you want to attach to their behavior, go beyond that. Dig a little deeper. Create some level of psychological safety and connection and vulnerability right. Show up as a leader for your team. If you can show some degree of vulnerability, your team is going to respond to that. And just now you mentioned the old school way of leadership, right? So people in many ways led to believe that you cannot show vulnerability as a leader, but studies have shown that what promotes connection, what promotes a sense of workplace well-being, is when leaders are able to to have good boundaries but at the same time, have some vulnerability, so that you're not just that strong leader who has everything in place and uses coercive means to get everybody into action, but you're showing up as a real, authentic person, and that's what people connect with, that's what people resonate with, that's what people relate to.

Speaker 2: 21:45

One of the things I think about a lot is just being genuinely interested in what your team is about. What motivates them to your very good point. What does their life look like? Again, you don't need their whole history, but maybe you need to know they're a single mom, or they're caring for a parent with Alzheimer's, or they're neurodivergent and whatever it is. Genuinely being curious, not as to your point, not assuming that if they're acting a certain way that they're bad, but maybe something else is going on. And then digging deeper, I love that idea. Yeah, you mentioned the fight or flight, the phrase. I think we know what. Those are. Right, those are the ones we already know. But I'm curious about fawn collapse and submit and it's a touch cry right A touch cry for help.

Speaker 2: 22:24

Yeah, what does fun look like? Because when I hear that I'm like doing this, I'm like I see that sometimes where you see people like playing with their hair constantly in meeting. Is that what are those three look like? Because I don't know if I know.

Speaker 1: 22:37

That's funny. I love that you shared about that. I can see why you would think that. So, basically, fun is as his name suggests. It's like fawning behavior. It sounds a bit playful, but essentially fawning behavior.

Speaker 1: 22:49

It sounds a bit playful, but essentially fawning means you are in some ways overextending your boundaries and pushing yourself into the background to accommodate somebody else, like you're trying to win somebody's favor. A little bit different from fight, flight, freeze, because that's mediated more by the amygdala, which is the like this emotional center in your brain, and that's very um, visceral. It'sygdala, which is like this emotional center in your brain, and that's very visceral. It's a very visceral reaction. But fawn is actually more mediated by the prefrontal cortex, so there's a lot of even strategy that goes into it.

Speaker 1: 23:17

I love that you brought that up about the hair, because over the centuries it's been shown that women, because of, in many ways, our weakest stature physically I'm talking about physically just we have less muscle mass than men and so we've had to find ways to protect ourselves. And so then that's what a lot of women have over the centuries, used fawning as a strategy to cope within a very patriarchal system, not to say that men don't do it too, because men do it. There's usually an imbalance of power when people fawn right, because a lot of bosses respond to that.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Oh yeah, because it can feel good. Right, yes, yeah, you're coming over to their side. What about collapse and submit? What is that?

Speaker 1: 24:01

So collapse and submit is when you basically just fold over every single time, right, like anytime. Anybody says anything. There's no pushback, there's no accountability, there's no kind of like negotiation, there are no hard conversations, but it's just okay. Okay, sure. Sure, it's a bit different from Fawn, right? So Fawn is a little bit more like there's some strategy to it, where you're thinking actively, what is this person like? You're anticipating his needs like, you're planning almost your moves like five steps ahead. There's a lot of thinking that goes into it. Where you're like, and also in intuiting, you know the other person's needs ahead of yours, right. But collapse and submit is just, basically, if you can think of folding, you just keep folding. In a card game, for example, you don't play a card, you just fold. Yeah, that sounds exhausting, yeah, it's. It's like you've given up you've given up, basically.

Speaker 1: 24:56

You've basically given up, so that that is collapse and submit, and then yeah, that's a cry yeah, yeah, attach, cry for help, so that if you can think of a baby and how babies are like so vulnerable because of their neediness and the helplessness they engender, like extra care and protection from good care from caregivers that actually take the job seriously. Obviously, if it gets to a point where there's too much of that, it can cause burnout in a relationship, right, and it can damage the relationship in the person that is defaulting to that trauma response. It can lead to them losing a sense of self as well, because what happens is learned helplessness, right? So instead of being able to have the presence of mind, to give yourself space to come back to yourself and then think through the problem and then think about how you're going to engage people, what resources you need, who you're going to ask for help for, to think about it in like a calm and like maybe more pragmatic way. But if your default is just to attach to somebody and cry to them for help, then you develop a pattern of learned helplessness over time.

Speaker 1: 25:57

And this can even be within intimate relationships. It can be within professional relationships, right, where one person's always like more than happy to help, more than happy to be the voice of reason, more than happy to be the savior, so to speak. Right, and then the other person is oh, I need your help, and there's nothing wrong with asking for help. I just want to underline that. But if it's become to the point where it's learned helplessness, then that's when you're talking more about this trauma response of attached cry for help I had someone in my life that their father was massively abusive throughout their entire life and their trauma response was absolutely freeze, anytime there was massive conflict, just freeze, literally, physically, vocally.

Speaker 2: 26:42

It was like, yeah, I am. I'm curious if that was always going to be their trauma response, no matter what. So if you have, your trauma response is like the one you always go to, or do people have different trauma responses for different situations?

Speaker 1: 26:57

Yeah, so you can actually have more than one type of default trauma. I do have a boundaries PDF like an embody and boundaries PDF to give away that people can access through a link If they sign up.

Speaker 1: 27:10

They can get it delivered into the inbox. I actually, in that PDF, elaborate more on the symptoms of each bucket of trauma responses. And to your question about your friend who tended to default to freeze, she might actually have other trauma responses as well, but maybe it just didn't manifest in those times that you were with her in her family. It might have been a lot more adaptive for her to just freeze up and so that might have been her, her default. But all I have to say is that a lot of it is just conditioning and how we learn to adapt in an environment. Right. A lot of it is survival. What trauma response works best for that specific environment?

Speaker 1: 27:52

In very combative environments, fight is going to be the trauma response that comes out. Where you're very active, you're very quick to hit back hard, you're very vocal. So that's your developed trauma response. But also consider that the role that you play within the family of origin affects how you cope with conflict. Right. So it's like in families there are sometimes what you call the black sheep or the peacemaker, the golden child, and all of these categories, frameworks for thinking about your trauma response, can shape the various tools that you lean on in order to survive the way that your nervous system adapts and adjusts to survive in that kind of environment.

Speaker 2: 28:36

We know that this is how people might react and they might react in multiple situations. We also know that, to your very good point, 80% of people have some sort of trauma response that they're coming to the workplace with. What do managers need to look out for when we're looking at trauma in terms of the signs here? What should they be looking out for? To be more of an embodied leader or have that trauma response?

Speaker 1: 28:59

So one of the things that you want to look out for is like startle reflexes. So let's say, if you like, come up to your employee and then he or she's very jumpy and they're like that right, or they look checked out, or they're not performing up to the usual standard, they've lost a spark. These are all indicators that they're not their usual selves. Right, you hired them for a reason. Hopefully you had a face-to-face interview at least, and then that's the persona they presented. Yes, I agree, you get to know them better. A reason Hopefully you had a face-to-face interview at least, and then that's the persona they presented. Yes, I agree, you get to know them better over time. But at the same time, there's a baseline self that they bring to work and if they are moving beyond or away from that and not performing up to standard, they're not showing up in the way that you expect and you're asking questions.

Speaker 1: 29:47

It's important to engage your employee. It's important to make time for them. It's important to make them feel safe enough to approach you with their concerns, because they don't have all the answers. There might be other employees in the workplace that's bullying them or making it hard for them to get the job done? Are you, as a boss, creating enough psychological safety as to where they feel like they can confide in you without being branded as a troublemaker and sometimes as a boss? You also have to be a bit more of a coach, and that says to coach them up to that standard and tell them very clearly this is what I expect from you. Let me know if there are things that you need my help on, or if you just have questions or the issues that you're dealing with that I can advocate for you in any way I would. Your employee just needs to know that you have their back. You're not going to throw them under the bus. That is one of the key things that the employees want to feel.

Speaker 2: 30:47

Sometimes it feels as a leader and as a manager. It can feel so complex what you need to do to manage teams and you need to be this perfect person, but at the end of the day, it sounds like what they really need is to feel safe.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Yeah, psychological safety is key, and then obviously, from there we can branch it out to how do you create that psychological safety, right? So we talk about emotional intelligence, and then this brings up somatic intelligence as well, where, if you've done the work and if you're self-aware, there's a mind-body connection. So then you're more aware of how you show up, you're more aware of, hey, when I'm communicating, how do I look? Right, because, like 70% of our communication is nonverbal. So I could be saying all this stuff, but if I look a certain way, people are like not sure if I'm gonna reach out to her.

Speaker 1: 31:34

So a lot of things are contingent on you being, as a leader, aware of the mind-body connection, aware of what self-care looks like, aware of good boundaries and how to lead with a style of leadership that engenders that sense of psychological safety. And part of that is also understanding that every employee is different. There's no cut and paste formula like communication styles, like some people need a more like directive simple, succinct and clear way of communicating, and then some people might respond to a more relational way of communicating. And then some people might respond to a more relational way of communicating. And I'm not saying that you have to be like this magician to read and intuit all these things, but the interesting thing is that once you are able to be more connected within yourself on an intuitive level, you will find that the connection on an individual basis is something that flows naturally.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Yeah, it's not's honestly just be interested in your employees figure this stuff out, have the trust in their relationship Anybody that's ever worked for me. I am absolutely not the perfect person, but one of the things I always hope people feel is that sense of trust and safety and I think if you engender that with people genuinely and you genuinely care for people, you can biff so hard on stuff and they will forgive you for it because they know ultimately the important stuff you did yeah, exactly, and in fact, just because you biff on people, it doesn't mean that's bad, in fact, because because people appreciate honest feedback and people know that they're not perfect.

Speaker 1: 33:06

Nobody wants to just be recognized for this one side of who they are. That's like saccharine. We don't want that. We're whole people and we all have nice and nasty sides. So when somebody can embrace that in us and call it out even or try to hold us accountable, we actually feel loved On a very deep level. There's a sense of being known and seen and accepted. So that's something that I don't think that, as leaders, we should shy away from.

Speaker 3: 33:42

I'd love to talk about who's getting this right. There are workplaces who are focusing on this. In your experience, what are some examples of companies that are excelling in trauma-informed care and embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 33:56

They may not use the words trauma-informed care or even embodied leadership. There are definitely companies that do lead with a focus on mental wellness and they do promote psychological safety and an environment where you can be open. They promote mental health days off where you just take a day to disconnect because you need it for your mental health. They provide employee assistant programs which are comprehensive and trauma-informed, sometimes like they're trauma-informed interventions. So the companies that immediately come to mind are definitely Google, and then also Salesforce and then Mel. This is where we met which is Culture.

Speaker 1: 34:36

First I just love Culture.

Speaker 3: 34:38

First it's not fun for them.

Speaker 1: 34:40

But I'm just sharing from my perspective that when I show up there, it's always welcoming People are always sensitive and it just creates an environment where real relationships can be formed, where it's not about, oh, let's just put up a work front, and it's not about just discussions and transactional relationships. It's about actual relationship and that's where real mental wellness comes. Like you're talking about, let's say, if you have a trauma history, right, and all you knew in the past was like abuse or like emotional neglect and so on and so forth, right, what can change that? Being in an environment like culture first, for example, yeah, where people show up authentically, where you're, if you welcome, you feel met and you feel like there's potential like for deeper relationships and yeah. So these are some of the companies that come to mind when you talk about, uh, trauma-informed and psychologically safe workplaces I love the again.

Speaker 3: 35:37

Not a formal plug for culture first, but yes, that's where we met and they're awesome and I'm a good example of that is so funny and this, the slack group that we're a part of with that group is such one. It's an excellent community for anyone who's interested in joining and I have not been active in Slack for a few weeks because of another project and someone from Culture First reached out to see if I was okay, which is super nice, I'm like there's a ton of people in here, but okay, yeah, like just it's the little extra step, right.

Speaker 1: 36:05

Just as an example of something like that and that's how I just wanted to add to that, mel, because it brought up something so bessel vender coat actually said is one of his most famous quotes is like trauma is not being seen, heard or felt.

Speaker 1: 36:16

Right, obviously, many different types of definitions, but that's to me one of the most succinct ways to express what it feels like to live in an environment where you're this ongoing trauma. You just never acknowledged your emotional needs and never met, and it's like you're not seen, you're not heard, you're not felt, and in our generation, children were literally meant to be seen and not heard. Brought up that way, when there's a certain amount of, like, emotional neglect and trauma that comes with that, where you're not given the tools to process certain things that happen to you. And so even that little gesture where somebody from culture first reached out to you and said, hey, just checked in with you, are you okay? It's acknowledging, yeah, that hey, I just want to know if you're okay, like what's going on, and that they see you, they noticed you, and that speaks volumes. There's a small gesture, but it speaks volumes 100.

Speaker 3: 37:11

And then to your statement. I'm like wait is all of gen x and millennials. Are we just all 100 percent tremendous and trump dies from rvc? Did not heard it's the woke generation.

Speaker 1: 37:23

When you're woke, you're just you. You're gonna say say stuff. You're going to say stuff, 100%.

Speaker 3: 37:27

So our generation's working to break the cycle right. Yeah, yeah. What role? Obviously, francesca and I both come from talent development backgrounds and leadership development. What role does continuous education and training play in building and sustaining trauma-informed workplaces?

Speaker 1: 37:47

In the realm of continuous education and training, one of the key things that I can think about is raising awareness around what trauma-informed care is, what trauma is, creating that language. Speak around it right so that people are able to bring that into work and be more cognizant of it. Even when I talk about somatics, a lot of people don't know what that is. When you're able to bring that into the working vocabulary and help people understand, hey, I'm having back pain here. A lot of our physical ailments are not just isolated. A lot of them are rooted in relational issues that were never resolved, or like psychological just psychological issues that come about as, or like psychological just psychological issues that come about as a result of things that are happening in within relationship or things that happen to you that you never were able to process. Just to give you a little picture, for example, in my own personal life, like I struggle with depression for throughout my marriage, I struggle with ibs irritable bowel syndrome for the entirety of my marriage and I also struggled with insomnia throughout my marriage, like for 10 years, and I tried many times to do whatever I could to get out of all these things and to deal with it within three months of walking out of that destructive marriage. All of it just went away. Naturally, I tried so hard to get off antidepressants, you know, for 10 years and I couldn't. So that, I think, speaks volumes about the impact that all of these unresolved issues, relationally or unprocessed emotions and traumas has on the body. Why I totally believe the body does keep the score. It's sending you messages. And when you're able to develop within the workplace a shared understanding of what, for example, something like somatics is, what, for example, body sensations are Like. When you feel like a pain here, what is it Left in your left chest? That's heartbreak oftentimes. Or when you feel a lump here in your throat, what's that? It could be that maybe you're feeling sad, or that there's stuff that you want to say that you've held back for so long you've had to silence yourself and that accumulates here. There's a pain that comes up. So once people are more cognizant of, hey, your body is sending you messages. It's not just all on your head. There's an actual, real and felt impact of these occurrences within relationship or within your life. Traumatic experiences you've been through that accumulate within the body Once you're able to create a shared understanding and create more awareness around how these things can be managed or dealt with or how people can be supported through these things, through these traumas, then it creates a more open and compassionate workplace where people don't feel like they have to wear masks all the time in order to survive, but they can actually be open and they can actually ask for help and be vulnerable and people can show up for each other, where you can even be silly, like talking about Slack.

Speaker 1: 40:40

I wrote in my other life I'm a mermaid, and I was just being playful at that time. My second singer-songwriter album I shared earlier I'm a musician too is called Mermaid, and it documents my journey out of that relationship. I did a lot of healing through just composing music, writing out my thoughts into lyric, and so the mermaid symbolizes freedom, it symbolizes death, breaking free, and so then I just wrote that, and then somebody responded and she was like, hey, you should check out the mermaid festival yes, it's so fun.

Speaker 3: 41:11

I've been in it twice. I did the parade.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Wait, okay, I will send you pictures after this recording, francesca, I was like what which?

Speaker 3: 41:21

I've been in the parade twice. When I lived in new york city annually, I used to go and with my friends and we were in the mermaid parade.

Speaker 1: 41:30

Yes, and it's so fun. I haven't gone for it yet because I think it had recently just passed by and I was still in New Jersey at a time, but I'm just going to definitely attend it next year. And, yeah, it's nice that people acknowledge these little quirks and little bits for attention in some ways, so it's like people respond to that and if you connect it, yeah, yeah it's fun little community it truly, with the body keeping the score.

Speaker 3: 41:52

I remember I once left a really toxic work environment and within the first week, the first thing I did is I booked a deep tissue massage. It first of all, I felt like I just had lumps on my shoulders and the woman was like, oh my God, is this hurting you? I was like, yes, in the best way possible, get it out of here. And then I took the hardest sleep, for it felt like 48 hours I just everything was releasing and within three months I did not have any of that pain, the body pain.

Speaker 3: 42:30

So it's just so relatable Like how it really does show up for you Question for both of you, and it might.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I tend to like to simplify things, distill them down and really be simple, but I'm wondering if and I've never thought about this way but does all this come down to? As a person, as a leader, like you need to feel, be felt, seen and heard yourself. What does that look like for you? Have you done the work to do that and then be able to feel, see and hear the people around you? Does it all come down to do it for yourself and then do it for other people?

Speaker 1: 43:06

Yeah. So that's a really great point that you raise Francesca, because ultimately, at the end of the day, you can't give to others what you don't give to yourself. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:15

You can fake it a little bit, but I don't think you really can.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Yeah, it builds up after a while. If all you're doing is putting up a mask, you're just going to be rolling around in resentment. Yeah, be rolling around in resentment and you're going to feel like burnt out and you're going to be pissed. When that, you can try to hide that, but like it's just going to seep out and it's going to be experienced on a felt level. What should leaders?

Speaker 3: 43:37

know what's one step, if they do nothing else, that someone can take tomorrow to start to really practice this embodied leadership and start to build more trauma awareness within the workplace. What's one thing that they can implement?

Speaker 1: 43:58

I definitely think that the first thing that I would start with is reflection and I know that might be a little bit off center for the fact that we've been talking about trauma-informed care all the while, but giving yourself that space to reflect, it actually helps you to come back to your body. It helps, in some ways, your body to catch up with your mind, or vice versa as well, because sometimes the body often knows things ahead of time and then it takes a while for the mind to register it. So, when you give yourself space and time to reflect, maybe take the time off, go on like a trip, something that's not agenda-based, right, where you give yourself that space and time to reflect, and then you'll be able to think maybe, oh, how have I been responding in this situation? Are there certain patterns, in a way that I relate, and then from there you can think about what you want for your team or what you want for yourself as a leader, and then look at the various options available to you.

Speaker 1: 44:54

Or should I talk to my boss, for example? Should I talk? Should I engage a therapist or coach? Or should I call up a good friend or read a book, like all these things? There are a multitude of ways to be an effective leader, to be more trauma-informed, but if it's just another list thing on a list of things to do, it's good. You're not going to show up with presence and authenticity. You're going to be like let's just get it done now and it's not going to be authentic. It's not going to come from a place of being fed. So give yourself that space and the time to reflect on where you are, who you are and where you want to go.

Speaker 3: 45:31

Reflection. I feel like it's such a missed opportunity for everybody because the environment, the world we live in today. It can be easy to not take that time, so it's a good reminder. That's the place to start Debra. We like to close out every episode with Rapid Round. It's yes, no one word answers usually, but feel free to give more if you're like this warrants more. So.

Speaker 1: 46:07

I'm going to give it to you. Are you ready? Yes, I'm excited.

Speaker 3: 46:09

Okay. Is it possible for every workplace to become trauma informed?

Speaker 1: 46:16

Yes, I do think it's possible, because ultimately, being trauma informed is just being more aware about your humanity and how you can connect to other humans in a way that is meaningful and how you can connect to other humans in a way that is meaningful.

Speaker 3: 46:31

Yeah, you hear that folks Pay attention to humanity at work.

Speaker 1: 46:36

Should trauma-informed care be a mandatory part of leadership training? I wouldn't want to go as far as to say it's mandatory. One of the key tenets of trauma-informed care is choice. So I think ultimately people have to be able to opt into that. But I do think that if people understood the benefits of trauma-informed care and how it leads to a more cohesive and innovative workplace where people feel safe and it's more fun, it's more engaging, it's just a more positive environment to be in. And how can you get the most out of your time at work? You're going to spend like 40 to 80 hours of time at a place working on something. Don't you want it to be enjoyable? Don't you want it to be meaningful and engaging? So those are the key benefits of trauma-informed care, and then add to that productivity, and there you have your answer.

Speaker 3: 47:19

Yeah, what I'm hearing is it's a good high opt-in if you can do it Strongly encouraged. I'm not saying it's required or mandatory, but Are leaders who practice embodied leadership more successful in retaining talent? 100%, yes, okay, and what is your go-to leadership practice to nurture embodied leadership?

Speaker 1: 47:47

go-to leadership practice to nurture embodied leadership. So just now I mentioned reflection, so that's a key part of my life. Every morning when I wake up, I craft out some time for myself half an hour to sometimes even an hour to spend time on just spiritual material, a devotional that I read. I'm big in my faith, so I spend time on doing things that feed my spirit, feed my soul. Music is a big part of that too. Writing, journaling those are all practices that I keep so that I can, in many ways, stay sane in a world where you're like so many things are constantly vying for your attention and then you have to keep prioritizing things. That's definitely one thing that I would recommend to leaders.

Speaker 1: 48:25

I think regular therapy, regular coaching sessions that's also really helpful, and there are so many resources and tools out there, books you can read it's really important to stay connected. As a person, I'm an introvert, right, I can spend hours on end on my own, but it's actually not really healthy to isolate yourself for long periods of time, because being around other people actually does help you in some ways to come back to yourself. After this podcast, I know I'm going to be energized to do other things, so that that's been my experience talking to people, having some conversations, having another part of my mind opened up, like it gives me inspiration to do more. It gives me the impetus to move forward because that engagement itself is a set, gives me a sense of meaning and purpose I just so appreciate you joining us to talk about this.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Oh yeah, I know I really loved chatting with you guys and I just love the vibe. You guys really keep it real and that's really what's needed. But especially when you talk about, like corporate life, because oftentimes people feel like, oh, I can't say this, I can't do this, and it's just. You keep it real and I think it's so important.

Speaker 3: 49:37

Thanks, hey, friends, this episode of your Work Friends was hosted by Francesca Ranieri and myself, mel Platt.

Speaker 2: 49:44

This episode was produced and edited by Mel Plett and myself, Francesca Ranieri.

Speaker 3: 49:49

Our theme music is by Pink Zebra and you can follow us over on all of our social media platforms Instagram, tiktok, youtube and, if you're so inclined, join us over on LinkedIn in our large and growing community, and you can email us at friend at your work, friendscom, or visit us on yourworkfriends.com. Also, folks, please like, subscribe and leave a review. If you enjoyed this episode, and if you really enjoyed it, please share with a work friend or two. Thanks, thank you.

Play at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Play at Work with Brandon Wetzstein

At work, play means profit…

Ping-pong tables aren’t the point. Real play drives trust, energy, and bold thinking—and the companies that embrace it are winning big. Play isn’t a perk, it’s a strategy. In a world obsessed with productivity, could play be your team's secret weapon?

Brandon Wetzstein has helped transform teams at major organizations by tapping into the power of strategic play. In this episode, he breaks down why traditional "serious" approaches often lead to mediocre solutions, and how structured play can break through conventional thinking to unlock breakthrough ideas.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

And a lot of times we need more ideas to come up with better. If you ask people for ideas, the first like one to seven or eight ideas. Everyone just comes up with the same things. They're very similar because we have a very systematic mind. For the most part, it's when you start getting to idea nine, 10, 11, 12, 13. And yeah, sometimes we need to get a little bit weird to come up with that thing. That is the brilliant idea. And the more ideas, the more creativity we can have, the more imagination, the more we can get out of our own way.

Speaker 2: 0:36

What's going on, mel? Not much is going on. It's finally chilly here. Last week we had some 80-degree weather on November 1st, which was a little strange, but we went down to the beach to enjoy it, which was really nice. How about you? Very?

Speaker 3: 0:55

nice, very nice. I have a bone to pick with every single person that I grew up with. Tell me more, okay. So we're going back and re-watching these kid movies, mainly because I have a seven-year-old, and one of the movies we watched that I just saw for the first time was Karate Kid.

Speaker 2: 1:12

I can't get over that. You're just seeing Karate Kid. First of all, Listen. When I meet your parents, I need to ask why.

Speaker 3: 1:19

Because my dad felt that the Betamax was superior technology to the VHS and there was like one rental store that actually had Betamax no bloodluster for you. It was like we finally got it a VHS when it was too late.

Speaker 2: 1:34

DVDs are coming out, but you finally got the VHS.

Speaker 3: 1:37

Yes, 100% the switch. There was like three months. Like I just saw Goonies, I just saw most of the Star.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Wars. I mean, those are pretty big ones to miss in your childhood.

Speaker 3: 1:46

Going through high school and college with everybody quoting these movies etc. And the quotes from Karate Kid were always like wax on, wax off. Yeah, why is it that no one ever talked about the ending of that movie? Because, I swear to God, you go through two hours and then all of a sudden the movie just freaking ends. That is the most abrupt ending I've ever had in my life. You're like wait, what happened? What if that bit? I would like to know why no one talked about the dumb ending of that movie.

Speaker 2: 2:15

It's the 80s. Tell you, watching 80s movies is so funny.

Speaker 3: 2:19

The choices All right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:22

We had the pleasure of sitting down with Brandon Wettstein from AnyCreate. He's just so rad. He's talking to us about play in the workplace and you and I have talked about the importance of play at work, and we're not talking about forced team building events here at all. One of the things that really stands out to me is how the play part of being at work, having fun with what you do has been beaten out of org cultures. It seems we no longer relax and get to this point where you can shut off the noise and really connect as a team and get together and just think about what's possible. But there's so many stats that show how important play is for the success of teams and for organizations. It nurtures things like critical thinking, creativity, it powers innovation, it helps really make teams feel connected. Breakdown silos increases collaboration, communication. The list goes on and on. What do you think? The thing that I loved?

Speaker 3: 3:26

about our conversation with Brandon is, when you think about play at work, automatically a lot of people think ping pong tables, play-doh, etc. But there are many ways that we can play at work. For instance, organizing work, that could be an aspect of play. If you really get into that, like if you really love to plan events or organize events, that can be an aspect of play. And really understanding what play is to you is critical. So I loved this conversation because, to your point, I think we've lost play and we can get it back. You can choose to get it back and reincorporate it into your work, even if it's not coming from your organization 100%.

Speaker 2: 4:05

This is a goodie. We leave you guys with some really good pointers on how to start thinking about play within the org, especially if you're a leader, how to start nurturing that with your own teams and the work that you do. So with that, here's Brandon. All right, brandon, could you tell us about your journey and what inspired you to start in EatCreate?

Speaker 1: 4:38

Oh yes, it's one of those things where whenever you look backwards, it all makes sense Going forward. You're like what, how did this happen? I started my career in retail, working in stores selling electronics, actually when I was in college. When I date myself here, hgtv first came out as a giant, huge TVs and that led me moving into corporate environments, again in a very retail. Most of my career was in retail, both store side and corporate.

Speaker 1: 5:03

And then there was there's like that epiphany moment that happens and for me it was running a design thinking workshop within the operations group at Target, which is one of the companies that, and that moment crystallized my purpose. And what happened in that moment is there was a person who was on my team, a person who was a little bit shy, and this person came a lot in this design thinking workshop right. Their ideas came up. It's so much information, so much energy and I always hold that moment really close to my heart because I remember how great it felt to give that person an avenue, an arena to to share, whereas in the normal space of, especially in operations, teams like I was always in operations and operators make the fun zone right.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Yeah, it's the black and white right. There's no gray, and so SOP land yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:56

This was the challenging part is how do you get creative and innovative and have some fun, have some joy and get people to come up with some crazy ideas in operations when that's not like the way that they normally work and I shouldn't say they me too, that was an operator as well, and so I just I love that moment and that was really a crystallizing piece, and so I was introduced to Lego serious play not too far after that moment and my curiosity just got to me on this and I started pulling the thread and reading some books. I never could quite figure out how to do it on my own. I wanted to try it, but I just couldn't. So I finally got certified in 2019 and I fell in love. I was like this is amazing.

Speaker 1: 6:31

This is the secret to getting groups to communicate and understand and listen to each other in a fun and playful way, and so that's why I started at 8Create and again, it's been five years now, which is just amazing to me, and I still love it. Every session I do, every workshop, every team building, bringing these methods to various teams to help them connect, communicate and collaborate differently. It's just, it's so joyful because it's this unexpected. We're going to have fun and we're going to do work like that possible. No, that doesn't make any sense, but it is and it works and it's amazingly impactful and I can't wait to do it with more and more companies hopefully the rest of my days.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Yeah, pretty nice. I didn't even know you could get certified in play. That sounds like a really fun process to go through. How was that? What was that like?

Speaker 1: 7:21

I'm certified it's very specifically in a methodology that's called Lego serious play. I did not make this up. Lego back in the late nineties was really looking at who they were as a company. They stood for creativity and imagination they still do but that's not how they were developing their business internally. We have all this creativity and imagination that we're bringing to the world and to children everywhere, but how do we bring that into our boardroom? How can we bring creativity and imagination into strategy really was the question, and then they spent a few years building this, playing with it, tweaking with it, and then they sold it as a consulting service for better part of a decade. Now, as we know of Lego today, they're not a consulting company. This is not what they do, and they know that too, and they stepped away from it in about 2010. And they did release an open source document that anyone can go read. You can go on Lego's website I believe it's legocom slash serious play. There's all sorts of information on there. However, it's not enough to read and do on your own At least, for me, it wasn't and so part of the people that ran and developed this system at Lego were basically gifted some of the IP and they created more IP around it and they created these certifications.

Speaker 1: 8:29

There's about two or three different groups out there that are very well known for certifications and they all have different strengths and backgrounds histories, but it does help to understand and see how this comes to life from someone who knows what they're doing. And then, once you have that and the idea is it's like drinking from a fire hose Once you get done, you're like, oh my gosh, I could do anything with this. There's so many applications and ways that you can use it and people use it for a lot of different things. I use it for organizations and teams mostly, but there are some people that I was certified with that use it for play therapy. There's people that half the people that were in my certification class worked in schools, various high schools, colleges, trying to get students to think differently and get out of their own way. So it really is a communication methodology that allows you to get out of your own way and bring that creativity and imagination that Lego was striving to bring to really any type of situation.

Speaker 2: 9:18

I love that. I also love that your background is in operations, because when people think of play, they think of only the forced fun, team building activities that happen. We often hear like the I don't want forced fun, but that's not what you're saying, that's not what you're talking about here.

Speaker 1: 9:36

I was introduced to it when I was working at Target, but I know that companies like NASA, the Department of Defense, google, apple there's so many organizations that have used this because it's been scientifically proven. It's not even just the playful aspect of it, but there's so many other psychology like the communication pieces, the mentally offloading information and physical objects. All of these things have different types of benefits. When you combine them, they're just new and creative ways to get people out of their own way.

Speaker 2: 10:04

Yeah, can you explain how Innate Create helps organizations really embrace play and creativity in the workplace?

Speaker 1: 10:12

Absolutely, and so the most important part of at least the workshops and the team building sessions that we do is that it's not like you're going to do this and have fun. It's we're going to create, in essence, a sandbox. We're going to create the environment that allows you to figure out how you want to play in this space, if that makes sense. So with this Lego method, that is our primary methodology. There's a couple of keys to it. One people are building stories out of Lego bricks, and when I say building stories, we're basically using metaphor and generally don't introduce it that way, because a lot of people hold on metaphor. Let's back this up a little bit. No, we're just going to create stories and we start off with a very basic build just to get them back into playing with Legos, Because for a lot of people, they maybe haven't touched Lego in a long time or they put away their kids Legos. It's not necessarily a joyful thing for them at home.

Speaker 2: 11:05

Or they're like. I just stepped on a Lego last night.

Speaker 1: 11:09

I just bombed all out of my house Exactly, but one of the key aspects of this methodology is that the builder can't be wrong and I'm going to say that again because it's so impactful.

Speaker 1: 11:20

The builder can't be wrong. And so, when you think about this, we're not building airplanes, we're not building cars and trucks. We're not building things per se, because there's certain people that I'm sure are much more attuned to building things and coming up with creative Lego ideas. But when you build stories and you can't be wrong suddenly whatever you build is up to you, and so some people build these large, elaborate things. Some people do build cars and ships, and that's fine, but some people build really abstract things that you have no idea what they mean until they tell you. And so it gives this freedom to people to express themselves in whatever way they would like, and some people will just put two pieces together and that will be their answer to a question. And to give you an example of a question we might ask and one of my favorite ones is in our team building sessions. It's just, the main focus is getting people to know each other better. They ask people to build a model that tells a story about who they are outside of work. That's it. That's it. It's that simple and there's no. You can't be wrong and you can choose right. Okay, how do you build a model of oh my gosh, what a huge topic. Do I build my hobbies? Do I build my children, my family, the fact that I have a soup pot and the crock pot, whatever, right, there's no wrong answer. And what you get is this amazing amount of ideas and thoughts, of insights, and people share what they want. And so that's where I think it really is different from most other types of team buildings, because it gives people the freedom to express themselves and share whatever they might want to share.

Speaker 1: 12:46

And it's amazing, the things that come up in these sessions, too. You find out. I did a session in California once where we found out like half the group was growing citrus, like as a whole. You're like, oh, wow, we're all growing citrus, cool, okay. So they created a little group afterwards. Another group I did in DC. We had a group of five or six people that all had adopted a dog in the past like six months, and it was just this weird thing. We're like no one knew this. So it's amazing. There's so much depth and dimensions of who we are outside of work, but we don't necessarily show up and just talk about ourselves. It's not socially acceptable and this just gives us an avenue to share a little bit, but do so in a very psychologically safe way, do so in a very easy way and, again, each person decides how much and what they would like to share.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Yeah, I love that. What's one of the most rewarding projects you've worked on since you've been in this space? Because you came from OBS, so I always think of those being the most skeptical folks coming in on this stuff, right. So is there a skeptic whose mind you changed or someone you were really nervous about? That was really rewarding once you ran this year workshop.

Speaker 1: 13:51

Yeah, one of my favorites is a two and a half or three hour session with the senior leadership team of a very large nonprofit, and we were there to really dig into communication, which is shocking. It's one of the things I get brought in to talk about a lot because communication is one of those interesting things where it's very important to talk about, but it's very sharp right. It has a lot of edges, so you have to watch out how you're going to talk about it, and so I've got 12 participants in this group and it was amazing to watch A the variety. There's a little bit of skepticism in the room. There's a little bit of skepticism in the room. There's a little bit of excitement too, though there always is, because some people like to play with Legos. But then the question when you get that level of seniority is is this fluffy or is this a waste of time? Are we actually going to get something? And I think the reason why I love it so much is A. It was amazingly impactful.

Speaker 1: 14:39

We really looked at the communication journey from a standpoint of what does world-class communication look like in a senior leadership team, and we got to a point where everyone had a chance to express their thoughts and their ideas. Using the Lego models. We looked at the negative side of things. Think of the worst team you've ever worked for. Build a model that shows what horrible communication looks like. Let's take a look at a model of what amazing communication looks like. Let's take a look at what communication looks like from a psychological safety perspective or from a candor perspective. And we started putting a lot of these lenses to it and what ended up happening is, after about two and a half three hours, we were able to really pinpoint about three different, very important point of views on this leadership team, and that were there was a group of people that was extremely frustrated with the level of psychological safety. They wanted to feel like they were able to express their opinions and their thoughts in a safe way. There was another group of people that felt like there was a responsibility in everyone in the group, needed to have a certain level of candor with each other. And then there was another person in the group this was actually the CEO who really did not necessarily disagree with those, but felt like everyone had a responsibility to really put in the legwork and the effort before bringing up ideas, thoughts or opinions.

Speaker 1: 15:56

So you get these three aspects all rotating around one another right. We need to have candor and speak our mind and speak up. We need to be able to feel safe to speak up, but we also need to put in the due diligence If we're going to bring up an opinion or a thought or an idea that we've actually thought about it right, we're not just winging it and firing from the hip. And the thing is, when you look at all three of those, they're all doable. You just have to have these expectations with each other in that reflection point, and so to be able to get to that type of information in two and a half, three hours is amazing, and to do so in such a fun and playful way.

Speaker 1: 16:30

And that was that's why that was such a favorite for me because the play aspect. It really allows people to put aside some of the group dynamics that stops us from communicating effectively. You put eight, 10, 12 people in a room. You're going to have hierarchy differences, you're going to have ego differences, you're going to have extroversion, introversion, all of these things histories, backgrounds, all of this comes into play in every type of meeting and with this play aspect, especially with this Lego serious play method that gets reduced massively, if not even eliminated, because you're so people are so focused on the model that they're building. And how do I create the story around what? My thoughts are? That it allows for a much more open expression in a very safe way, but it also keeps the tangents very much out of the way. It keeps people very focused on the topic at hand. We're not allowing ourselves to go off in one direction or another, so we can get to the topic at hand, really understand where everyone's at.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Yeah, it really cuts through some of the dynamics that might be happening right.

Speaker 2: 17:31

It removes all of the minutiae that shows up in team dynamics and it seems really powerful to come to this joint agreement in just under two hours on how you're going to operate as a team in terms of communication and idea sharing, which is really fantastic.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Francesca and I have facilitated, like you, a ton of learning and sometimes, when you're working with teams, those dynamics especially when you're talking about how are we going to operate, how do we prefer to work Like, how do we come together with different working styles and show up as a team together To your good point some of those dynamics can take the conversation off the rails and you start to go down these routes that are not productive and not getting to know. But what can we do together? So I love the concept of how this offers a level of focus and safety for everyone to share their ideas, and it's pretty impactful to come to a joint leadership agreement on this is how we're going to operate in just share their ideas, and it's pretty impactful to come to a joint leadership agreement on this is how we're going to operate in just under two hours, and everyone feels positive about that outcome because they all contributed in a way that is really beautiful.

Speaker 1: 18:35

It does From a psychological perspective. There's a couple of key things that's really fun to see. So one and this is part of the facilitation as well is when people build their model. So let's say I have my model. Of course I've got a visual of AIDS, I've got a little duck in front of me, but let's say this is my idea of like world-class communication is speaking your mind? I don't know right. I could say that that's what this, uh, sure, we'll go with that. But what happens is, as I'm talking and usually someone does build a duck they build something weird and something it looks like something a five year old might make.

Speaker 1: 19:04

People are generally looking at the model and not the person, and so what happens is that displaces the attention onto whatever the thing is and not directly at you, and so it makes it easier to talk. One because the attention is on the model itself, but also, too, because this idea is out here now, and so now I'm not talking about this thing or this opinion that's in my head, but I'm talking about this weird little toy thing. That's a pile of Legos, which is not threatening, which is easy to, it's playful. Usually there's some fun metaphors going on in there you can see some physicality, no-transcript, say in the middle of sessions wow, I didn't really need to go that deep or I didn't mean to say that much or I didn't mean to go that far, but because it's so safe to talk, right, it's usually not a regretful thing, but it's more of a reflection.

Speaker 1: 20:06

Oh, I can't believe I just said that in this group of people that I never would have said this if we were just having a verbal discussion. But it's really. I think it's empowering too, where people are like oh yeah, you know what? I'm glad I said that right, because it is what people truly think. They put time into building this model and their thoughts and their opinions. And, yeah, they get to take that psychological safety and feel a little bit better about sharing whatever it is they might be doing.

Speaker 3: 20:44

I'm wondering about how play shows up when it's not facilitated. How play shows up potentially at work, or should could show up at work, and just the dailiness of work. Why is play essential for someone at work? And just the dailiness of work. Why is play essential for someone at work in general?

Speaker 1: 21:02

Oh, there's so many. There's so many good answers to this that if you think about play, you go back to childhood. Right, and here's the fun part If you want to research, play and go read books on play, like 90% of the books on play, if not 98%, are all about kids. Because kids, that's what kids do, right, it's natural Watch children. No one needs to be taught how to play. They just go, they do it, they play pretend, they try things out, and so play gives us so many different tools. So one it allows us to try things right. And we think about everything that's been written about embracing failure. Do kids think about failure when they try stuff while playing?

Speaker 1: 21:38

No they just do, and if it doesn't work out, fine, I learned, I go on to the next thing, I go on to the next thing, I go great. I think one is trying things, you're able to try things on, You're able to play, and it gives you a way to experience something in a very low risk type of scenario. No-transcript, little bit goofy, being a little bit silly, allows you to take all of these borders that we have in our mind right, all of these boundaries, all of these walls, all of these rules, and get rid of them and start thinking about things in different ways than you might have done before. One of my favorite exercises is an improv exercise. I do this with my audience. I have people pair up and I use an animal of some kind of. One person gets to be a llama and the other person gets to be a lion. Everyone choose and I'll set a timer for 45 seconds and have one person say lions are great because X and they have to list as many things as they can and they have to say lions are great because every time so. Lions are great because they have big teeth. Lions are great because they have giant veins. Lions are great because they're king of the jungle, and after about 45 seconds, the other person's counting.

Speaker 1: 23:11

We asked the audience how many did you get? Seven, eight, nine, 10, 15, whatever the number is. But then we asked what did people say? And they all said things that were true about lions right, that they are kings of the jungle, that they have, that they eat meat, whatever that might be Like. Did anyone say that lions are great at their taxes? Did anyone say that lions are great because they wear polka dots on Halloween? Did anyone say that lions are great because they make an amazing vegetarian chili?

Speaker 1: 23:33

And everyone's, yeah, they start laughing. You're like what, wait a minute, hold on. They're like there's no rules to this, you can make up whatever you want. And so then we flip it around and we have the llamas go and we do the same exact thing, but this time take off those limitations that you put on yourself. Right, with this rule that it has to actually be true about lions, and then we watch everyone do 1.5 to 2. Times more ideas. Right, instead of going, I'm just coming out with as many ideas as possible. I'm really trying to think of what is actually true, about why it's, and so that is just an interesting framework to think of.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Okay, so now, when we're trying to be creative or innovative at work, what type of rules are we putting in our own way? And this is where that playful mindset right. How do we use play to have more fun, come up with better ideas? And a lot of times we need more ideas to come up with better. If you ask people for ideas, the first like one to seven or eight ideas. Everyone just comes up with the same things. They're very similar because we have a very systematic mind Not 100%, but for the most part it's when you start getting to idea nine, 10, 11, 12, 13. And yeah, sometimes we need to get a little bit weird to come up with that thing. That is the brilliant idea. And the more ideas, the more creativity we can have, the more imagination, the more we can get out of our own way.

Speaker 3: 24:46

You said the mindset of play. So many times when I think about mindsets it comes down to a trigger question you can ask yourself so you get into the mindset? Is there a question you can ask yourself to say how do I get into play?

Speaker 1: 24:59

Yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways to do this. One of the things that I do on my own not shockingly, I use Legos because I have them, but I will actually build out my thoughts and ideas out of like on a table. I'll build it physically, I'll say this is what I'm doing for my business plan or my marketing plan or whatever, and I'll build it out of Lego and have some fun with it. Right, and then you can come up with some ideas. So that's one aspect to you could ask a question of and this is another exercise from design thinking is to give yourself different prompts of how might I solve this If I was Walt Disney? How might I solve this If I had no money? How might I solve this If had a trillion dollars? Or if I was, pick a name, right, if I was Harvey T Firestone, how would I solve this? Or pick anyone, and just give yourself a different frame and try to get out of your own way. And I think that's the hardest part is right, we know what we know and we're in our own minds all the time. Right, we're here, we're not going anywhere, but we have to recognize when we get in our own rut. This question could be very different for different people and it could be using a physical medium, it could be framing someone else, it could be utilizing music there's so many different triggers. But having something and trying something and literally playing with it is step one. Each person is probably going to be a little bit different, but the fact that you're trying is probably that first step into figuring out how each person can make that true for themselves.

Speaker 1: 26:33

The cool other part of play is it's fun, right, it can be fun. The cool other part of play is it's fun, right, it can be fun. And I think one of the other aspects is we think about stress, and especially now we're getting much smarter about how the brain reacts to stress and what cortisol does to our creativity. And yet when we get people in a playful state, their ideas are better, they're more creative, they work better together. And one of the other aspects of play that works with especially with children and adults, is when we play with people we actually connect. Think of when you play.

Speaker 1: 27:02

There's a wonderful book out there titled Aptly Play by Dr Stuart Brown, and he outlines eight attributes of play, and one of those attributes is a diminished consciousness of self. So when we think about how we think about ourselves, we're in a stressful board meeting with eight people or 10, and how are we going to fix this thing? Everyone's stressed right, and so we're not going to come up with our best ideas when we're stressed and we're feeling under pressure. But if we can deflate that a little bit and get a little play and start building off of each other's ideas and getting that consciousness of self, instead of sitting there wondering how am I being viewed? How I speak up? Should I not speak up? Will I be judged for this? When we're playing, we're just bringing our full self forward, and so we connect better, work better together. Everything just gets better. We have that play aspect attached to it just freaking refreshing too.

Speaker 3: 27:50

like I, I have a six-year-old and it's always amazing to watch him play and to your very good point, that he doesn't give a shit about how he looks, if he's feeling, if he's dirty, if it's the right thing to do or not, and your idea around to around that diminished sense of self, or even the fact that people don't care what other people think they're just creating or in that mode. We lose that so quickly. I think about adolescence and everything else. We lose it really quickly. And then to be able to come back to yourself and your work and come back to play in your work in these little ways is just so refreshing.

Speaker 1: 28:27

There's an important thing there, right, some of us lose play, yeah, and it's in those teenage years, and I've been thinking a lot about this because I have a couple of nieces that are in that age.

Speaker 1: 28:39

We're there, you know, I think one's 12 and the other's 15 right now, and it's been really interesting because I visit them often and to watch this sort of transition, and especially from a play mindset, because, as you said before, kids are like I'm going to go play, I'm going to go do goofy things, we're going gonna go nuts. And yet I watched as the oldest started having this little bit of a divide and I think if in the I started to think about this and reflect on my own life and I'm actually curious if this was true to you too but there becomes this point where you start wanting to be an adult and for some reason, we decide that play is not part of that. And I remember going to being at the breakfast table or whatever with my parents or aunts and sitting there and yeah, so we are going to have this little more conversation. I am an adult and I'm going to not be silly and playful. And then 10 minutes later you're off playing and you're being silly.

Speaker 1: 29:32

So you create this interesting divergent path where you still want to play as a kid but you also want to be adult because you see all this cool responsibility like I can stay up later, eat what I want all these freedoms that come with adulthood, and somehow you just see this divergence happen and I think a lot of folks don't necessarily find their way back to play right, because you're also in those teenage and those adolescent years. You're trying to figure out how you fit in at school with your peers. You figure out who you are, how you dress a face full of acne or whatever's going on. You're also worried about what people think of you, that you're a little bit more protected with who you are and you're not as free as you were with that five or six year old.

Speaker 1: 30:09

this is how we're gonna play right, let's just have a fun time. I don't care what anyone thinks. Now you care what everyone thinks a lot. And so that transition we just have to find our way back to play Again. It's fun, it's joy, it's creativity, it's learning. It's learning, it's trying things, it's growing.

Speaker 1: 30:25

If you ever want to connect with people or make friends in a very quick way, go find a way to play with them. Go play on a sports team. Go play board games With adults too. One of the cool aspects of this book play is they outline different archetypes as adults, because we play different as we get older. Some people want to play sports and games and things that are still considered very play like, but to other people, things like collecting things becomes play, or collecting experiences becomes a version of play. One of my favorites is there's the planner, or the director is one of the terms that Dr Brown uses for one of the archetypes, and this is the person who loves to like plan parties or plan vacations, and they want to put all this stuff together. I'm like that's not play for me, but for some people apparently that's really fun. They can't wait to do that and that's play for them. So it's interesting as we get older too, we can recognize what play means for and and it's going to be different from person to person.

Speaker 3: 31:21

Uh, like, running is running play. It depends why you're running, how. No, I know, yeah, but to your point, some there's I have a lot of friends that that is absolutely play like they, they live for it, live for it and I would just be like shoot me in the face.

Speaker 2: 31:33

Yes, I am totally the planner for fun. It's so funny because I'm like the travel planner. I am the friend people call to find they want to go to Italy for 20 days on this type of budget. What can we make happen? And I figure it out and it's like a puzzle. I think it's fun to figure it out.

Speaker 1: 31:54

I love it. No way, some people love it.

Speaker 3: 31:59

Yeah, exactly, this is just where my joy is versus.

Speaker 1: 32:02

That's the fun. Right, as we have unique, different ways. One of the recommendations of Dr Brown, in the book too, is, as an adult, if you're not finding play, is to think about what you liked as a kid. What did you like to play? And go back to some of that stuff. Right, and maybe there's play archetypes that you've not tried. It could be. The explorer is one of the play archetypes, the collector, the artist, where just creation is fun. I think I have a lot of friends I like to cook. You know for a lot of other friends that experimentation and creating dishes, that's play. That could be fun because you're creating something, and so there's so many things that can be played that we can open our definition.

Speaker 2: 32:44

We can the play that we can open our definition. We could broaden it a little bit into just playing, pretend or goofing off or being silly. Yeah, I love that that, that you're providing this like larger framework of what play can look like and it's not just what we traditionally think of as play. For sure, absolutely was anyone else guilty of doing like weird plays with your cousins, or creating musicals and then making your family watch them. Anyone I think that's just me, just me I used to love to play like hotel or restaurant.

Speaker 3: 33:05

I used to love to organize things, puzzles like mel it's interesting to think about. There's windows to the soul throughout life and play early on window can absolutely show up in your adult life as well.

Speaker 1: 33:18

With the technology tools. Now, you know my nieces and nephews. They make movies, they record and get scripts and all of these things. One of the things that always amazes me most is they don't sit down and think about it. Let's talk about how this is going to work and make a big plan, which is what adults do. They're like no, we're just going to do it, we're just going to jump in and figure it out. It goes back to that like just no hesitation to do, and there's something empowering about that, there's something so fantastic about that. Are you guys familiar with the marshmallow spaghetti exercise? This is like a corporate thing that's been done for years.

Speaker 3: 33:51

No, tell us more.

Speaker 1: 33:53

It's an interesting exercise. You basically break up a team into groups and you have three or four people and you give them, like there's three, I would say three things. You give them like a box of spaghetti noodles, marshmallow and like some tape and that's it. And the challenge is to be like who can build the highest tower out of these spaghetti noodles and marshmallow and to spoil what basically happens.

Speaker 1: 34:14

They've done this with MBA students and like high-powered lawyers and all these different types of groups that you'd think would be really successful, and the ones who are the most successful it's five-year-olds and they come up with the tallest tower. Because what happens is the adults as they sit, they think, they talk, they debate, they go back and forth on what we should we do, what could we do, what should we do? You have a whole box of spaghetti noodles and kids just go, they just start trying stuff and they fail, they try, they fail, they try, they fail, they try, they fail, and they get so much learning done in such a short period of time that they finally get a much, much better ending, and yet we adults just talk ourselves but you're over thinkers yeah, just go do it, just try it, see what happens at the team level, day-to-day, outside of planned events.

Speaker 2: 35:14

How can leaders really set the tone for an environment where, let's be honest, there's some real boring shit we got to do, but it's a day to day or a deal with. But how can leaders foster this environment of fun or thinking without our egos or removing the over thing to everyday work problem? What can they be doing?

Speaker 1: 35:41

problem. What can they be doing? Part of that is recognizing like who who on your team might have a talent at doing this. There's a new psychometric personality exercise out there called principles this new ray, dalio, adam grant, and but there's actually a level of humor and humor is one of their traits and what's interesting is this humor trait not shocking very high end that people they're more lighthearted, they tend to want to create and make fun environments, and so I think a lot of it might be. If you're a leader, maybe that isn't your bag. Find someone whose it is and maybe give them that responsibility or ask them to help maybe create a more fun environment or create maybe it is a happy hour or a lunch or get some ideas out there. And I think work with the team too right. I think there's a general. Some communication should happen before and because there might be a team that maybe as a whole team doesn't have a lot of humor and maybe they don't want a ton of fun.

Speaker 1: 36:31

I do think that every team should have some fun. There's a level, but find that person and empower them to do that I was, I think. One of the reasons why play has been so central to what I have done in all of my jobs, no matter what role I've been in, is very early on in my career, as I work for and with a lot of people who did like to use play a lot when I worked in retail stores in in college. I consistently work with leaders. We find ways to to have fun, and so I just think there needs to be an intent and then finding the person or people with the skill set that would like to be able to do that and give it a try.

Speaker 2: 37:06

What do you recommend to the leader who wants to introduce this to their skeptical team on how they can use play to innovate or build it into the workplace? I know, obviously find the person on your team who's good at play, but what do you recommend if they've never done this before? It might not be part of the larger culture, but it's a microculture a leader would like to set up to make their team highly engaged and productive, more collaborative, more communicative. What would you recommend?

Speaker 1: 37:40

I've yet to come across this. A team of skeptics is tough, don't get me wrong. There's probably one or two skeptics in many groups, especially if I'm doing a lot of larger, like 25 to 50 person group sessions, and there's a couple in that group.

Speaker 2: 37:53

Always.

Speaker 1: 37:53

You can't avoid it. But the fun part is, especially with the Lego sessions, is it goes away almost immediately. It's amazing. So one trust that the Lego method itself, actually it'll just work on its own. Two, I think it's just asking people to be open. Come in, give it a try. There's no wrong answer. Right, you can't do wrong. You're just going to have legos. Just be yourself, right? Yeah, engage however you want to engage. I think letting people know that the expectation is just letting them be themselves is maybe it takes a little bit of pressure off. And what I've found is that the cynics usually come around about 20 minutes into the session because they're like they're not sure, but they don't want to like be the person who's just not participating. Right, and they're like, okay, fine, I'll build. My first build is always build a tower, whatever you want to build yeah hours.

Speaker 1: 38:44

but something happens when people open that bag of legos and they start playing, like little smiles come to mouth, they start getting into it and they're not competing, they're not building a thing, they're just. They can do whatever they want. And again their colleagues are smiling, people are having fun and there's something about that. We'll say on the good side of like group think right, where you get these people together and suddenly, if every, if nine out of 10 people are laughing and having a good time, that 10th is eventually right. Even if they want to resist it a little bit, they'll get into it.

Speaker 1: 39:14

And it always happens because I'm just building stuff with Legos and you got little like minig figures and at some point you just can't take yourself too seriously in that type of situation.

Speaker 2: 39:24

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:25

Yeah, I like that. We just talked about leaders and then I think about employees, one of the things Mel and I talk about the future of work all the time. We know deeply human connections are going to be so key and things like innovation, creativity, empathy, capabilities that are truly differentiated from AI, especially around play, because play, to me, is one of those competencies that incorporate all of these other aspects like empathy, like creativity, like innovation, wrapped in one Employees being able to advocate for play or to be able to come to work with play or know how to incorporate play, is so key. Yet a lot of people are again working in ops or in accounting or in these very kind of honestly stodgy places. So I'm curious as to if you have an employee that is working in corporate America, usa, and they really want to bring play more into it, what are the first one or two steps? I know we talked about the mindset earlier, but I am curious about what's a safe way somebody can advocate for bringing play into their personal work more.

Speaker 1: 40:37

So there's two aspects of that right. There's the individual side. It could be even starting with a colleague or two and trying something right. Maybe finding a method online or again like design thinking is also a fantastic methodology that you can take bits and pieces from to create playful, innovative, unique ways of approaching things For a broader team. If you have a team, if you're a leader, again, it's taking those baby steps, it's starting and one anchoring play and creativity and imagination to hopefully some type of core value within the organization.

Speaker 3: 41:09

Because I think that matters too. If you're just a company and all you want to do is yeah, if your values are to make money, then I don't know that play is right for you.

Speaker 1: 41:17

But if you're in a purpose-driven type organization that truly wants to excel at customer experience, employee experience, making a difference in people's lives and whatever again, whatever product service that you're in and I think most companies have this right, I think most companies have this right, I think most companies I've talked to or worked with there's a level that we want to create a place where people like to work and they create good products and services for our customers and happy employees and engaged employees mean happy and engaged customers and all of that is connected. I think if you have those, then play isn't extremely hard to get. It's finding the right methods that people can apply to, and it could be like starting small. It could be just having a little bit of fun. It could be just talking about what play actually means to people in the room. Like, how did you play? What was your favorite game as a kid? You could start with something as little as that.

Speaker 2: 42:19

Brandon, we have what we call a rapid round. It's quick questions, it could be yes or no or the first thing you think of. It could be longer too if it's oh no. I have more to say about about this. Are you open to doing a rapid round with us? Yes, do it.

Speaker 3: 42:36

I feel like I'm on a game show.

Speaker 1: 42:37

You are a game show okay to have more creativity.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Is it a solo walking situation or brainstorming situation?

Speaker 1: 42:49

Oh, it's both. I think it's both. Yeah, I am a walker, I love walking, get out, it's a physical movement. Yeah, our bodies and minds are connected. Walking for sure. But a good brainstorm is fun too, because you can bring other people.

Speaker 2: 43:04

Yeah, get that outside perspective. I feel like, francesca, you and I are brainstorming every day we go through. Oh my God. I feel like, francesca, you and I are brainstorming every day we go through. Oh my God, we're like what about this?

Speaker 3: 43:14

The problem is we have too many ideas that we have to be like stick to the plan, yeah, stick to the plan, yeah, walking brainstorm, though we would just be on fire, yeah, that's true, walking brainstorm, I love that yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:27

That's a good combo.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Is a playful leader, a better leader. I'm biased. I'm gonna say yeah, I would, but that would be by preference, I think. Maybe not in general, but for me, yes, for me yeah, I think so good, okay, best work day, pick me up play activity oh, my gosh man.

Speaker 1: 43:51

I just just because it popped in my head, I I would love to go swing on some monkey bars. I feel like that would be. If that was a thing, I would just go do it. I think generally adults are not allowed on children's playgrounds most of the time, but if there was one at my work, go to this.

Speaker 2: 44:04

You may just start a new fad. Instead of all the ping pong tables. It's a build in jungle game. I would do that.

Speaker 3: 44:12

That would be fun. Have you all tried to be? I tried the other day because my son can do pull-ups. I have no upper body strength. I'm like what happened here. What?

Speaker 2: 44:18

happened here. The last time I was at a playground I really embarrassed myself because the little animals that are like on that weird bendy thing that you like, so I got on one and flung myself off because I went a little too hard. Can creativity thrive under deadlines? Please say yes.

Speaker 1: 44:38

No, I think so. I think so Because I think sometimes pressure can be a good lever. So I think back to in my last job. I remember planning a manager summit and this was like a global thing. We're already doing it in like Barcelona and Shanghai, and they gave me like six weeks to the first one at least. But the pressure summit and this was like a global thing, we were already doing it in like Barcelona and Shanghai, and they gave me like six weeks to the first one at least. But the pressure forced me to get really creative, to understand, because we didn't have objectives or anything like that, and so it was it did. It forced me to move and try things so we could figure out what worked quickly. No, I do think so. I think there's a level of reason within that If you're like, do this tonight by 5, that's probably going to kill creativity. But yeah, if there's a little bit of time in there, I think pressure can help.

Speaker 2: 45:18

Okay, Best creativity booster music or silence.

Speaker 1: 45:26

Can I say I want to say walking. I feel like I know we said that before, but I think walking and it could be with music or without, I think that's a very personal preference.

Speaker 2: 45:34

Okay, okay, morning meetings. Would you provide coffee or games?

Speaker 1: 45:41

Ooh both Okay, yeah, again, I think you've really got to tap into the personalities. I think there's some people that are like I'm a morning person, so let's go. I want coffee and games, but I know other people that might stare daggers at me If there was no coffee.

Speaker 2: 45:56

they're like no. Game is still noon, I'm not showing up. Very cool. I appreciate you answering this rapid round. It has been super pleasurable to have you as a guest and we're so excited to share with our listeners all that they can learn from you from play Brandon. How can folks get in touch with you?

Speaker 1: 46:17

You can get in touch with me via my website. It's innatecreatescom. You can also go to brandonthelegoguycom.

Speaker 2: 46:24

Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1: 46:26

Thank you so much for having me Bless, all right, bye friend, that would be blessed.

Speaker 2: 46:29

All right, bye, friend. Hey friends, this episode of your Work Friends was hosted by Francesca Ranieri and myself, Mel Plett this episode was produced and edited by Mel Plett and myself, Francesca Ranieri.

Speaker 2: 46:42

Our theme music is by Pink Zebra and you can follow us over on all of our social media platforms Instagram, tiktok, youtube and, if you're so inclined, join us over on LinkedIn in our large and growing community, and you can email us at friend at your work, friendscom, or visit us on your work, friendscom. Also, folks, please like, subscribe and leave a review. If you enjoyed this episode, and if you really enjoyed it, please share with a work friend or two.

Crisis Communications

Your Work Friends Podcast: Crisis Communications with Anne Marie Squeo

Crisis doesn’t wait…

One wrong message can tank your reputation. One delayed response can cost you trust. When the pressure’s on and the spotlight’s burning, do you know what to say?

In this episode of Your Work Friends, we dive into the art and science of crisis communications with expert Anne-Marie Squeo. From understanding what qualifies as a crisis to mastering the first 24 hours, this conversation is packed with actionable insights for leaders, teams, and anyone navigating turbulent times. We’re giving you the playbook for crisis communications—so you don’t freeze when everything falls apart.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

But it wasn't three hours later, when I was getting my car to drive to work, that I got an urgent phone call that the blimp was about to crash and it was rush hour. It was Pennsylvania I-95 was in its path. I was like, oh, jesus Christ going on mel what's up?

Speaker 3: 0:32

what's up? Um, I have good news, you have good news, I like it. You know, I do starting uh, next week the sun sets at 5 pm oh.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Oh, my gosh, I'm telling you during the winter nuts, nuts, winter nuts. What, what is on my mind During the winter nuts? With my sweaty balls, during the winter months, I become a bear. I am just like oh, it's 7 o'clock, I'm going to get my jams. It is not good, listen same.

Speaker 3: 1:05

It has been getting dark at like around, like November-ish December. It starts getting dark at 3 pm. It's unacceptable. Is it 11? I have my slippers on, oh my gosh. Well, we were incredibly lucky to sit down with Anne-Marie Sgueo today, who is an expert in crisis communications. She is the CEO and founder of Proofpoint Communications. She's a strategic branding communications and crisis PR maven. She's also a Pulitzer winning business journalist, and two words to describe her battle proven. What did you take away from this conversation?

Speaker 2: 1:51

I love crisis communications. I think it's just a fascinating topic about how companies and how people respond to crisis, and there was a lot that Anne-Marie shared that looked really under the hood around how this all works within organizations, how decisions are made and, honestly, what good looks like. That I did not know and I think is really, really eye-opening for anybody listening. What did you think, mel?

Speaker 3: 2:18

Absolutely agree. If you're a leader in an organization, you're going to find this episode extremely useful and helpful. She gave some pretty clear tips on. This is how you show up and this is how you pull through and come together. So with that, here's Anne-Marie we are so excited to have you join us today on your Work Friends, and I'm going to jump right in with a headline that came out from Axios and I want to get your thoughts. They said CEOs are enjoying a hot speech. Winter, when we're speaking out in outrageous ways, carries no cost and we know recently we saw the UnitedHealthcare CEO not really dealing well with critical crisis and Mark Zuckerberg's comments on the Joe Rogan podcast on how that's impacting meta. What are your thoughts on that statement?

Speaker 1: 3:24

podcast on how that's impacting meta. What are your thoughts on that statement? There's always a cost. The question is how you're measuring it. We'll go back to United Healthcare.

Speaker 1: 3:36

I think Zuck's comments are, frankly, just bizarre and I keep wondering what his wife thinks. But a lot of my friends have gone off threads. They've gone off Instagram and closed their Facebook accounts. There's a critical piece to this in terms of has no cost, right.

Speaker 1: 3:51

One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is, you know, when Jeff Bezos pisses us all off and you know, we're like I'm not using Amazon anymore. I'm just I'm not, and I tried this. Actually I tried this for a couple of months last year and it's really hard. So if you're addicted to the product or service and you have been for the last five years then it's probably unlikely you're going to get unaddicted. But if it's more marginal in your existence, so the Washington Post subscription, that is like the eighth thing I read any day. I can live without that Right. So I mean, I think that it's going to be hard for CEOs to say there's no cost, because for some it might appear that way because their product or service is so essential to our lives that most of us can't imagine we'd be punishing ourselves if we cut it off. But if you don't fall in that category and most people don't then there are going to be repercussions for doing things that piss off 50% or more of your customers, subscribers, whatever.

Speaker 3: 5:03

Yeah, I think Francesca and I were talking about this before the session and one of the things we both agreed on was there's maybe five people, I think Francesca you said, who have a few money to be able to not have a cost to their statements.

Speaker 1: 5:16

Yeah, I mean again, most CEOs, I think, measure the cost financially. But bad reputations have bad financial implications and they might not happen immediately. But one thing that I think that is a mid-term kind of outcome of, say, meta's CEO's comments is you're already seeing blue sky and all these competitors come up and they're going to get better. Just like threads stepped in to pick up where Twitter X left off, someone's going to step in and pick up where both of those guys left off and run away with it. And the eyeballs and the advertising money Don't count too soon. I wouldn't count my chickens before they're hatched, because it might not be that the next three months are impacted, but the next 12 months may well be as alternatives come to bear.

Speaker 2: 6:12

It's so fun to watch. There's, I imagine, in your area, someone's always in crisis and, to your very good point, you started this by saying going through the Trump administration, every organization is going to be in crisis because of all the change that's going on. And I'm curious about how do you define either like a PR crisis or crisis communications? For those that don't know about this topic, what is it?

Speaker 1: 6:34

Oh, this is a great question because, you know, I've definitely worked places where the CEO or senior leaders thought everything was a crisis, you know.

Speaker 1: 6:45

So if we're not included in a story, it's a crisis, and if we are included in a negative story, it's a crisis, and you know, I think that all of us in the industry have to kind of set a barometer for what actually requires a crisis response, and that's an important conversation and level setting that needs to happen in every organization, because if you, the communications team, are not aligned or at least educating your leaders about what makes the cut for when we're going into crisis mode, you will spend your entire day and night and weekends fighting fires that are not important and you'll never get to the good stuff and the important stuff.

Speaker 1: 7:31

So I think, if it's a real crisis, francesca, I think it's got real reputational and financial implications for a company and business implications. So you are a railroad company and your railroad went off the tracks in Ohio and potentially poisoned an entire community with toxic things that came out of the cars. You've got a crisis and it's going to potentially result in regulatory repercussions, punitive government, punitive repercussions, lawsuits, environmental related issues. That is a legitimate crisis. I would say things that no one's going to be talking about in 24 or 48 hours, not a crisis. So I think, by definition, a crisis is going to be longer than 48 hours. You may feel like it's a crisis in the moment, but if it's going away and no one's going to remember it in a year, it wasn't a crisis.

Speaker 2: 8:31

I'm curious about that timing right, I mean within 48 hours. If no one's going to be talking about it, it's not a crisis. I'm curious on the other aspect of that because, especially with social media, the first 24 hours of a crisis, or that after something happens, the train derails and spills chemicals, the LA wildfires are happening, UnitedHealthcare CEO gets shot, the BP oil spill that first 24 hours seems like it's so critical. And then, especially with social media, the speed of which information gets put out into the ether. How important is the first 24 hours If you've identified that this is in fact a crisis? How important is that first 24 hours as an organization?

Speaker 1: 9:16

It's very important to establish trust and confidence in whatever comes next. I think the challenge of the first 24 hours in some of these situations is you don't really know a lot in that first 24 hours, right, whether it's an oil spill, a plane crash, a derailment, a cyber attack, I mean there's some stuff you know, but there's so very much that you do not know and you won't know for a while. But you have to establish the kind of connected tissue that you're going to need in this situation and whether you're going to be viewed as someone who's withholding information or going to be forthcoming when you can be information or going to be forthcoming when you can be. And the challenge, of course, in social media things tend to move much more quickly. You know, like years ago, right, like you know, we didn't know when there was a crisis until the news came out the next day. So I mean, you guys might be too young to remember that, but I mean now everything's like people might know about it on social media before even the company is aware that something happened. So it creates both benefits and detriments in any crisis situation because on the pro side, you can use social media to find out, so you can be listening all the time, and so if people start talking about something, you know about it before it becomes a wildfire and you can disseminate information more broadly more quickly because of it. But so can dis and misinformation get disseminated more quickly, and now you don't just have a crisis of the underlying event, you have a crisis that you're trying to contain information that's actually inaccurate about the underlying event, and so it has definitely made the job of a communications team, a crisis PR team and a leadership team exponentially harder, because you've got all these moving pieces and you can't afford to wait. And yet you can't afford to be too detailed either, because you might be issuing a detail in the first to make it up 10 hours turns out not to be true, and now you've got to go back and correct.

Speaker 1: 11:39

Now you've started to break trust right, and we started with first. We want to establish that we are going to be a trustworthy communicator in this situation. You know, the wildfires are sort of an interesting example where I've got a lot of friends who live in LA. Many have been evacuated. Luckily nobody's lost their home yet that I know of. But every single one of them said the communications have been God awful and you saw it in some of these press interviews that they were doing where fire chief was dissing the mayor and the mayor didn't know and she's smiling. Meanwhile, people's homes are burning down and I'm thinking I wouldn't trust this crowd at all, especially if my life and my family's life was in danger.

Speaker 1: 12:24

So that's really that first 24 hours. I think we all recognize you might not know enough, but you've got to establish that I'm going to be a trusted partner with you in this endeavor. That feeling is something that's either going to help long-term in managing this crisis or it's going to hurt you long-term in attempting to manage the crisis. So that getting the right spokesperson out there, having a transparent and trustworthy demeanor, not hiding facts that are easily known from multiple sources but you're not willing to confirm it there's so many little things that end up adding up to that. How do people feel about us right now? And I think that's one of the key thing in the first day of any major crisis.

Speaker 2: 13:15

So much of this comes out to planning you had mentioned too earlier on. One of the things you want to do is establish what is a crisis, which I think is super important. So you're not chasing down the fact that you didn't get into Fast Company this month, right, like that's not a crisis. Dora, flying out of a Boeing Max right, that's a crisis.

Speaker 1: 13:36

I'm not sure Apple, in which case it was like great sales point because the phone dropped miles and still was working. That's hilarious.

Speaker 2: 13:44

It's so funny. I live in Portland, Oregon. The door of the Boeing Max landed in one of my neighbor's yards over yonder, so it was like a big like oh, he found the door. I'm like that is not what you want as a company. I'd love to open up the hood a little bit on who's behind these organizations. What's the command center look like for crisis communications? Who is determining what's a crisis? Who is determining at these organizations how to even respond, or who's going to be the spokesperson? What does that typically look like?

Speaker 1: 14:15

And it varies, right, it varies depending on the crisis, the company and the people. So if you've got, let's say, you're a big company and you have a crisis, then you know you undoubtedly have a senior comms person, a chief communications officer, a VP of communications, who's going to be point in theory on that if you let them and they often want to put their voice and their reaction into the situation and it can make it much harder to get to where you might need to be if that's the case. But your command center it's going to change depending on what the crisis is. So the two constants that I have seen in every crisis is comms and legal. We're always there.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Now, if it's a product thing, right, like if it's an airplane crash, the head of the Boeing commercial airplanes business is going to be involved. Probably the engineering folks and manufacturing folks are going to be involved. Legal is definitely involved. Comms is involved, Leadership is involved, but comms and legal are almost in every single crisis. If it's an employee event somebody was killed in the workplace and it's because of whatever reason, you know, hr is going to be involved. Right, it's a cyber attack Then your information security and your technology officer are going to be involved. So it's going to change depending on the crisis, but always should have communications and legal at the table. Looking at that working in lockstep and it's wonderful when that happens.

Speaker 2: 16:00

Yeah, especially because your comms people. That is their craft, that is their skill, and especially when you're the CEO or even if you're head of product or head of engineering. I think sometimes there might be too much of an emotional bias on some of those things.

Speaker 1: 16:14

If you're coming in I don't know if you've seen that, or- not, because, well, let's face it, a crisis is only a crisis because something didn't work right, something went wrong, someone was killed, a railroad went off the tracks, we were breached in a cyber attack, or a customer was breached in a cyber attack, so something didn't work right. It's never a crisis when everything's going well, so that's just going to ratchet up everybody's emotions. From a communication standpoint, it's important to understand that, because we're not actually going to be able to appropriately address this crisis if we don't understand where everyone's coming from, so that we can get them where we need to go. And so it could take a little while and that's the challenge, of course is that in most crises, time is of the essence, and yet you've got to somehow get people on this path with you so you could do the right thing instead of doing nothing, which is often most people's default position, which is let's just say nothing, or let's just say the bare minimum and leave it at that right.

Speaker 1: 17:27

One of the things that I thought was interesting Boeing had two plane crashes within a year and a half or so, and their statements were overly lawyered and ice cold. I mean, everybody uniformly looked at those statements and were like really, 346 people are dead in these two plane crashes and you're like basically thoughts and prayers, and yet you know there's a lot. You don't know when you have to put that statement out, you know could it have been pilot error.

Speaker 1: 18:02

Maybe it's not the airplane's fault. You don't want to overdo it, but you can't come across as being almost uncaring when people's lives were ended and many families globally were impacted by those two events.

Speaker 2: 18:19

It's interesting when you can feel where it's overly lawyered or sometimes it's overly emotional. The one I always remember from grad school is during the BP oil spill and the CEO made it all about himself, like, well, no one's suffering as much as I am and everyone's like you need to go away. This is not about you, but it.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Didn't his weekend plans get ruined or something?

Speaker 2: 18:42

Yes, and you're like I'm sorry, the Gulf of Mexico is completely under crude oil right now, but it seems like comms really is that, for lack of a better term almost like the adult in the room that's helping you strike the right balance for whatever the situation calls for.

Speaker 1: 18:58

You have to be the truth sayer in the room Like you have got to be the one who walks in the room and just says it, and it doesn't always make you very popular to do that. When I was at Xerox and I was the chief brand and comms officer, the pandemic hit. And you know, the week before everyone was told to send their employees home we had already sent our employees in Italy home Because, remember, italy was a really hot spot I went to the CEO and said we need to send everybody home and he was like are you nuts? And I was like no, I mean, have you not paid attention to the news? So we had a whole meeting and nobody else agreed with me. And the next day I had to go back to him and I was like so can we talk about sending everybody home? And he's like I thought we had a meeting about it yesterday. And I'm like, well, we did, but we came to the wrong answer, so we're going to let's have that conversation again. And so he said, okay, you got five minutes to go.

Speaker 1: 19:53

And I did, and he sent everybody home and he told employees in an all employee phone call, like you guys have Ann Marie to thank for me actually getting ahead of this issue. And the way he got ahead of the issue was me saying, like here's the thing. We don't even know what the deal is with this thing. All we know is it's very transmissible from human to human. You are going to send everybody home. So the question is do you want to send them home today and get ahead of being ordered to send everybody home and be perceived as a good leader, or do you want to wait until the government tells you to send everybody home and just do it then? Either way, you're doing it, so you just have to decide when you want to do it and wanted to do it ahead of time. So we sent everybody home and then the order came 48, 72 hours later. He got a lot of credit from our employees.

Speaker 2: 20:38

That's goodwill.

Speaker 1: 20:45

That of credit from our employees. That's goodwill. That's goodwill man. This guy cares about his people. You should have just taken the credit. That's my job is to give you credit and he was like no people should know how that went down. So for communicators, it requires a level of courage for any leader, but especially for a communicator, because there's we're probably the only ones in the room with no direct relationship to the cause of the event. We are probably the most objective person in the room. In a crisis, we have to stand strong and ask the questions and be unemotional and super calm and not accusatory, and just try to get people moving in the right direction.

Speaker 3: 21:38

When you think of essential elements, that communications teams or even if you're a leader right, what's a playbook to have in place to help you contain the crisis, when stuff pops up?

Speaker 1: 21:53

What are the key elements you would include in that? Yeah, it's funny. Playbooks are a thing. There are whole firms that will come in and build you a crisis playbook. I always think that's a hilarious notion.

Speaker 3: 22:06

Seems like it would be situation to situation. Right, it depends.

Speaker 1: 22:10

Right. You can't possibly be prepared for every possible. I mean, now listen, if you run a rail company, you can be prepared for a derailment, right.

Speaker 3: 22:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:19

Yeah, you got that the same thing with an airplane crash but for the most part, there's going to be stuff that happens that you never thought you were going to be involved with. So I'm not a big believer in playbooks.

Speaker 1: 22:31

In fact, at one company I worked at, I arrived my first week somebody came over and handed me like this three quarters of an inch thick crisis playbook and I was like really, and I put it in the drawer and I never, ever looked at it, and this was a company that had many crises during my tenure there but we never once related to the book, and I'll tell you, no CEO has ever asked me what does the police playbook say about how to handle this crisis?

Speaker 3: 23:02

Let's go through our manual.

Speaker 1: 23:05

It says, if an employee dies. So I am just a big believer in all the pre-work that makes it possible to successfully manage a crisis, a crisis. So hire really good people with diverse experiences, who may have handled various crises in different companies or at agencies or whatnot, and then let them tackle the problems when they start happening. Establish authority and trust with the leadership team, because it actually doesn't matter if you're in charge and you have a playbook. If the CEO doesn't trust you, you are not going to be able to influence the outcome of this crisis. Define what a crisis is. Who needs to sign off on the actions related to that crisis.

Speaker 1: 23:58

I'm just a really big believer in hire people with good judgment, great experience, different experience, and make sure that everything that you're doing up to the point of the crisis ensures that you have the authority and the trust and the seat at the table to influence and drive that discussion and that outcome, because otherwise you're just you're. You're just going to take it along for the ride. Don't be a passenger on this bus. Drive this bus.

Speaker 1: 24:26

We're really the only ones, as I said, that are sort of objective in this situation and have that external sensibility to understand what's happening outside the business so that we can bring that to whatever solution and communication strategy we're developing.

Speaker 3: 24:44

I think you make the best point is that the communications team is probably the most neutral party in any room when they're dealing with something like this. You just bring a different point of view, that and it takes out the emotions completely from it, which is needed. How do you manage those emotions up front if you're a comms person?

Speaker 1: 25:01

Listen and empathize with that person, because often all that person really needs is to emote. They need to get all that they're feeling out there and they're probably going to get to the right place. But if they don't have the space to do that, you're going to be bouncing up against it when you're trying to get them someplace else. So I do think that despite the fact that we are communicators because we are, in theory, better at communicating I think this is one of those very important situations where it's better to just listen to people and let them go through it If it's 20 minutes an hour whatever because they're probably going to talk themselves to exactly where you need them to be, or close to it, and then understand that those emotions are real.

Speaker 1: 25:50

If you're a CEO and say, like you're in a precarious position. Your company's not financially performing that well. There have been, you know, major recalls or something on your product and other things, and now a crisis hits. You're scared. That's your number one response is, even if you're not articulating it, there's like a knot in your stomach Like is this the thing that's going to push me out the door? What you need is a comms person who understands that. That that's your starting point, but here's where we need to go and actually, if we manage this crisis really well, it will elevate your standing instead of being the nail in your coffin.

Speaker 3: 26:31

That makes sense. One of the things that we talk about often is transparency and how transparent you can be, because we're always up against general counsel and their feedback as well around what you can and can't say. How do you balance transparency with the legal constraints that come up during a crisis?

Speaker 1: 26:51

I mean. The thing is, you don't want to build trust between the comms and legal team in the middle of a crisis, right? Because if it's not there, trust me it's not coming that week. So that's a relationship that is so absolutely essential. That comms legal relationship. I have never had a general counsel. Well, actually, once, once I had a general counsel and it was painful not to have that trusted relationship. But in every other role we were like attached to the hip because we understood there was going to be so many touch points where we were going to have to come to mutually agreeable decisions that we had to be on the same wavelength. And who can build the relationships that are going to allow you to influence the solutions, move quickly and do it with trust, because you can't build it in the middle of a crisis.

Speaker 3: 27:50

So say someone's day one on a new job. They were the new comms leader. How do they quickly because you have to get that buy-in between multiple departments as soon as a crisis comes up how do they quickly gain that trust from business leadership, from those department leads? What's the best way for them to build trust quickly?

Speaker 1: 28:12

I guess not screw it up, but I actually had this happen to me. I did have this happen to me. It was my first week at Lockheed Martin and a major military program. So I was on like day two or three a major military program. The Pentagon had changed the acquisition strategy and thrown everything into flux and I remember standing in the middle of my office thinking, jesus, what are we doing now? And I just like gathered all the people who needed to be in the room on this.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Even though I was the new person, I was like, okay, we have a crisis, we need to come up with a media statement, a media plan, at least for 24 hours, then we can regroup tomorrow, cause this was at like four o'clock in the afternoon, I pulled everybody together, we figured it out, we moved out the statement and it worked fine. And then the next day we got to work as a larger group on a plan. If you're new, like you're going to need to pull in the people who are there and use your best judgment. This is where the judgment piece comes in, because judgment isn't something that like appears. You can't go to Walmart, pick it up off a store shelf.

Speaker 3: 29:18

Yeah, agreed, well, I think it's one kudos to you, because, holy cow, day three, that's a big, that's a big thing to do.

Speaker 1: 29:25

In fact my email. They had misspelled my email, so my actual email at the company still wasn't working. So I was having to call people and be like can you just come to my office Because I can't email you, and we just had to move quickly, email you and we just had to move quickly. I actually love those.

Speaker 3: 29:43

What do you think? They're fun. I can see you easily doing fine under pressure. What do you? What do you think was your secret sauce in that moment, though? How did you get everyone to go along with what you?

Speaker 1: 29:55

staying calm. You know I had I'd written about the defense industry as a reporter, I had worked at a different defense company, I understood the subject, I understood what we were dealing with and so I could move really quickly If I hadn't. I think, at the end of the day, most of us know what the right thing is to do in the moment, and the harder part, as we've been talking about, is getting other people there, and so in this case I guess I got more latitude than somebody who was totally green would have gotten, because I was a known entity and people trusted me Right. Otherwise that trust would have to be developed over time.

Speaker 3: 30:36

Yeah, Like so. Trust truly is the secret sauce for it to be effective.

Speaker 1: 30:40

I think it is. I think it is.

Speaker 2: 30:41

Yeah, I'm very curious about one of the most unexpected crisis scenarios that you managed through. You don't have to name names, but is there any that comes to mind where you're like that was unexpected.

Speaker 1: 30:53

Yeah, actually A blimp, a blimp.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Like the Goodyear blimp, like the Goodyear blip.

Speaker 1: 31:05

When I was at Lockheed we had this prototype airship it's called the Hail Deep and we all got up at 3.30 am to watch this massive, massive it was like, I think, five football fields long airship takeoff from a dock in akron, ohio. It was beautiful dawn, lovely, but it wasn't three hours later, when I was getting my car to drive to work, that I got an urgent phone call that the blimp was was about to crash and it was rush hour. It was pennsylvania i-95 was in its path. I was like, oh, jesus Christ, so that was definitely a crisis. I mean, again, we had a plan for what would happen if we had issues with it, but it really looked like it was going to be a flawless test and it did not. It was not a flawless test and it ended up coming down in a wooded area very close to a beaver dam in Pennsylvania. The good news was we immediately dispatched a communicator to the beaver dam to answer all the local news press questions. So we basically it wasn't like a national news story, but certainly in the Philadelphia, ohio, pennsylvania area you know it was a couple of days of coverage of this massive airship that went down and, you know, working again by the before.

Speaker 1: 32:31

It took 10 minutes to get to the office. By the time I got into the office, we had all the necessary people on the phone. I'm like where's the airship? Like it was just like drilling the questions. Like, okay, I've dispatched this person, let's get this information written up, get it into that person's hands. They need to be on site. Reporters are going to come to the location. Blah, blah, blah. Work with the local authorities. We were seamless. I had everybody on an open line in my office for three hours. I was like, just come back and talk on the squawk box, I'm leaving the line open and so that's you know.

Speaker 1: 33:06

I mean, this is the stuff that happens in the middle of a crisis, you just have to stop doing everything else and just do this.

Speaker 2: 33:14

Well, which begs the point of not having a playbook, because I don't know if you're working at Lockheed Martin, you probably don't think you're going to have to deal with the National Beaver Society because the blip crashed in their dam. Do you know what I'm saying Like? But now here you are.

Speaker 3: 33:27

The ASPCA has got you on a speed dial. Yeah, I can't imagine.

Speaker 1: 33:32

Right, Like you cannot plan for every possible crisis trying to hurt the beavers no no beaver was killed. No beaver was hurt in the testing of the singer ship.

Speaker 2: 33:45

What do you know? If a crisis response was successful, what do you measure?

Speaker 1: 33:52

Nowadays, with social media, there are all kinds of tools that you can listen to how people are talking. So there's the qualitative and then the quantitative. On the qualitative side, you know if people are pissed off. You mentioned UnitedHealthcare earlier and I actually would love to go back to that, but it was pretty remarkable that a man was murdered and people were talking about how hot the assassin was and how people are feeling about your company when they're cheering for the murderer instead of being completely outraged about what happened.

Speaker 1: 34:46

And I would just say one thing I actually think that UnitedHealthcare is doing a very good job with this. So you know, yesterday was their earnings and their CEO of the parent company, United Health, talked about what's wrong with the healthcare system, and he also had an editorial in the New York Times a week or two after the murder happened that addressed it. Now it does beg the question as the nation's largest insurance company, what are you doing to solve the problem? So great that you're now acknowledging that there is a problem, but what are you doing to solve it, which I hope is the next piece for that? But I've seen them lean into this in a manner that I think is better than some companies do in these situations.

Speaker 3: 35:38

I have a quick question follow up for that, because with UnitedHealthcare, what I found interesting, just as an observer and someone consuming, they're getting out at front about acknowledging their role but then their actions seem to not align with their acknowledgement. So, for example, like an article came out yesterday about how they're one of the few insurance companies who are increasing I think it was cancer medication by over 1000% compared to other insurers, making it more expensive for their customers. So when you see like you see the CEO coming out and they're acknowledging it, partly responsible for the state of the healthcare system, but they haven't taken it to what should be the next level, you know as the nation's largest insurer.

Speaker 1: 36:44

Here are the things we're going to do differently, right, boom, boom, boom, boom, right, and and hopefully, fingers crossed that's their next piece, because otherwise, in a couple of months, this yes, it's broken and we're really sorry and we have to all do better is not going to play well with the vast majority of the public, because they're going to be like yeah, we heard that from you for six months now and you haven't done anything different.

Speaker 3: 37:10

It's the new thoughts and prayers.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Right. So I do think that that is always the challenge right, Even if your crisis communications response is great. Boeing had the same issue. Their issue was the problem with the manufacturing of these planes. That has come out and now gotten a lot of media coverage and government intervention and other things right. I often would say it's comms' job to like prepare the garden, fertilize the soil, make sure that it's an environment in which things can grow, but if things don't grow here, that's not my fault, that's your fault.

Speaker 2: 37:47

Can you tell a lot about a company's culture by how they respond in a crisis? Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 37:54

Yeah, absolutely. I mean because that response isn't coming out of nowhere. And if it does come out of nowhere, then it probably won't be trusted. Think about the insurance industry right now and these fires, I mean.

Speaker 1: 38:09

It's not a good scene and they had already cut off people's insurance policies, and I lived in California. Insurance was extraordinarily expensive to get and that was when you could even get it. Now you can't even get it in many places, and I wasn't in a fire zone, but at this point you don't really know what a fire zone is. It could be anywhere. So I think that the way in which these companies have approached their business will make them inherently trustworthy in this situation because of everything that led up to it. Now maybe somebody will step out and do the right thing.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Do the right thing has multiple implications because at the end of the day, many of these are publicly traded companies and they're mining their portfolio for risk and they only want to have a risk exposure of make it up 30%, 40%. So that means we can't cover any of these folks unless they pay this much more money, and that makes it prohibitively expensive and most people can't afford that. And so again, we get down to sort of a situation where, okay, if you're part of the problem, you're also part of the solution. So are you going to lead on this and try to figure out how we might be able to at least address this? So I saw on the news last night. People are hanging signs with QR codes to their GoFundMe pages in the front of their burnt houses in Pacific Palisades so that people driving by can just get to their QR card and give them money. That's terrible In this country, with the kind of money this country has, that anyone should have to have a GoFundMe page, especially if they had insurance.

Speaker 2: 39:51

Agreed. You mentioned that almost every company is going to be in crisis this year. I feel like the insurance companies are like they're in the hot seat. Buckle up.

Speaker 1: 40:01

That kid is going on trial, that man is going on trial for shooting the UnitedHealthcare CEO, and so will the healthcare industry, insurance industry, be on trial, because that is going to be part of that entire trial. There's two trials right now and if they got combined, you know, or maybe even three, if they bring federal charges they'll get combined into one trial. But make no mistake, he will be on trial, and so will the healthcare insurance industry.

Speaker 3: 40:36

I'd love to talk about advice that you personally might give to folks who are in a crisis, dealing with crisis, just based on your own experience. What's your go-to stress reliever? What do you do when you're in an active crisis situation?

Speaker 1: 40:55

when you're in an active crisis situation. Well, after the work, I would definitely have a glass of red wine During it. I mean, I think it's really important to just try to stay calm and clear and whatever you need to do, that is important Exercise or meditate or whatever it is for you. Exercise or meditate or whatever it is for you like. Being very calm and almost impersonal about the situation is really important when everyone else is flipping out.

Speaker 3: 41:26

So that's from a communication standpoint. If you're a leader, in one word, what's the most important quality a leader needs?

Speaker 1: 41:34

Judgment no question Judgment.

Speaker 3: 41:37

What is the best piece of crisis management advice that you've ever been given? Don't be afraid to ask the hard questions.

Speaker 1: 41:44

Often what happens in a crisis is not only are people afraid to ask the hard question, they're afraid to ask the follow-up to the hard question. Up to the hard question. But if you don't know everything that you need to know, your crisis is going to mushroom right, and you could have gotten ahead of it if you had just kept going down that line of questioning to get what else do? I need to know that we're not doing right so I can respond, because there's going to be a reporter calling me about this in less than 36 hours. So tell me everything now so I can get ready for it. So I think, ask the hard questions and ask the hard follow-up questions.

Speaker 3: 42:24

Almost like an attorney. Like I don't want any surprises here.

Speaker 1: 42:28

Yeah, I mean, that's the worst thing that any business can have is a surprise.

Speaker 3: 42:33

Okay, what are some or what's one crisis communication myth that you would like to debunk?

Speaker 1: 42:41

You don't need a playbook. You need courage, commitment and clarity, but you do not need a playbook.

Speaker 2: 42:47

All right, anne-marie, we like to get to know our guests on a more personal level, so I'm going to ask you some rapid round questions that are just light and easy. We just want to get to know you. Are you down? Okay, let's do it. All right, it's 2030.

Speaker 1: 43:04

What do you think work is going to look like? Well, I'm really hoping that the AI is doing all the mundane things and that we're down to a three day work week.

Speaker 2: 43:12

Yeah, I like the world.

Speaker 3: 43:12

We're here for it.

Speaker 2: 43:13

Painting. Yes, yes. What music are you listening to right now?

Speaker 1: 43:21

You know, I listen to such a bizarre blend of music. What was playing in my car just today? I was listening to a little John Legend a little while ago, nice, nice.

Speaker 2: 43:34

All right, all right. Do you know he started as a management consultant? I read that Isn't that wild yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:41

Listen, bain, or I think Bain or BCG. Yeah, it was one of the.

Speaker 2: 43:45

It was one of the MBBs, I thought. I know, mel and I come from Deloitte and everyone's always trying to oh no, it was Deloitte. I'm like it was not Deloitte. We like to claim everything. What are you reading?

Speaker 1: 43:57

I am reading Mel Robbins' Let them Theory.

Speaker 3: 44:02

What do?

Speaker 2: 44:02

you think it is a great way to start the year. Nice, that's a tough one, like that whole idea.

Speaker 1: 44:12

I think that would be. It's tough, right, and I was actually having a little mini meltdown about something last week and I was complaining to my husband and he was like, well, honey, what about? Let them, let them. I was like, oh my God, yes, right, perfect. Was it free yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:28

Yeah, yeah. Who do you really admire? I?

Speaker 1: 44:33

really admire Michelle Obama. I think that she is authentic, I think she has demonstrated really good judgment and I think she lives her values. You know, she's not afraid to live them, and I think that's like one of the most important things we can do, especially as women, and stop trying to contort ourselves into what everyone wants us to be and be who we want to be.

Speaker 3: 44:57

I recently someone on social media said that they're going to RSVP as Michelle Obama going forward when they say no to things and she's not showing up to anything anymore.

Speaker 2: 45:06

There's been all these great memes of her just like no, no, thank you, yeah, no, and I also love the fact that I don't need to give you a reason.

Speaker 3: 45:16

No explanation needed.

Speaker 1: 45:18

That actually is something that I have been over the last couple of years, trying to break the habit of right. Like I always feel like well, what are you going to tell them about why you're not going? And I'm like why do I have to tell them anything? Why does anyone need to know why I'm not doing something?

Speaker 3: 45:33

No is a full explanation.

Speaker 1: 45:35

Yeah, Right, but I wasn't raised like that and for most of my life I always was like I can't do that because I have these other and I'm like you know, nobody cares, Nobody. I'm making a bigger deal out of this than anyone else. No, I can't do it, Sorry, Next time. So I think that it's just. It is something that we have to practice in order to get comfortable with it.

Speaker 2: 45:56

Yeah, and it's definitely a muscle. I'm always like worried about everybody else's feelings and it's like no one gives a shit. You can either come or you can't, it's fine.

Speaker 1: 46:02

And also, at the end of the day, like it doesn't make you nice or not nice to do that, right, it's just, it just is.

Speaker 2: 46:10

Yeah, last one, a piece of advice you'd want everyone to know a piece of advice you'd want everyone to know.

Speaker 1: 46:20

I think it's important to understand who you are and then be the best version of that person. We all spend so much time trying to fit in to different scenarios and situations that we sometimes get so lost and then we're not the best version of anything. So no, we're not perfect. Figure out like what's where do you get your joy, what, what makes you unhappy? And then try to be the best version of the person. That is that, and don't worry about what everyone else thinks. You know, frankly, they're going to talk about you anyway. So you know like there's just really no point worrying about it.

Speaker 2: 46:59

Yeah, let them yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:01

I mean, we all have to get inspiration from places. I'm hoping that you know, as I keep reading this book, that it is very inspiring to remind myself that I have no control over what other people think. I only have control over what I think.

Speaker 2: 47:17

Yeah, yeah. And how you live your life and how you take your energy, you know or channel your energy I think that's such sage advice is to figure out who you are and then just try to be the best version of that, and that's it.

Speaker 1: 47:28

No one's asking for any more than that. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:33

Love it, love it.

Speaker 3: 47:35

Thanks guys. This episode was produced, edited and all things by us myself, Mel Plett and Francesca Ranieri. Our music is by Pink Zebra and if you loved this conversation and you want to contribute your thoughts with us, please do. You can visit us at yourworkfriends.com, but you can also join us over on LinkedIn. We have a LinkedIn community page and we have the TikToks and Instagram. So please, please, join us in the socials. And if you like this and you've benefited from this episode and you think someone else can benefit from this episode, please like, rate and subscribe. We'd really appreciate it. That helps keep us going.

Speaker 2: 48:21

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:23

All right, Take care, friends. Bye friends, Bye friends.

Hire Your Next Job

Your Work Friends Podcast: Job Moves with Michael B. Horn and Bob Moesta

Career paths change…

The climb isn’t always up. Sometimes the best move is sideways, bold, or completely unexpected. In this eye-opening episode, we sit down with Michael B. Horn (Co-founder of the Clayton Christensen Institute, Harvard Graduate School of Education) and Bob Moesta (Founder of Rewired Group, Kellogg School of Management) to discuss their groundbreaking book "Job Moves" and revolutionize how you think about career transitions.

Discover why the traditional job search process is broken and learn how to take control of your career path by "hiring" your next job. Our guests break down the four primary career quests that drive job changes, debunk the myth of "getting lucky" in job searches, and reveal why money isn't the real motivator behind career decisions.

Listen or watch the full episode here

---

Speaker 1: 0:00

Just because you're good at it doesn't mean you like to do it. Yeah, part of it is being able to actually know who you are and know what you're good at.

Speaker 2: 0:22

I almost wore that same lipstick today that would have been hilarious.

Speaker 3: 0:25

Sometimes you just need, like a, just a boost you know, yeah, so really it looks really beautiful. Thank you Honestly. There's just so much schmutz going on in the world right now the news cycle I cannot I cannot, I can't keep up with this news cycle Listen. We had a pretty kick-ass conversation last week.

Speaker 2: 0:43

This has been one of my most favorite discussions in a long long time. I mean, I love all our guests, but this has just been a really. It was just a rad conversation.

Speaker 3: 0:54

Yeah, I thought so too. We talked to Michael B Horn and Bob Moesta.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Yeah, Michael Horn is the co-founder of the Clayton Christensen Institute and he teaches at Harvard Graduate School of Education. And Bob is the founder of Rewired Group and also an adjunct lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management for Northwestern University and also a fellow of the Clayton Christensen Institute and just all around amazing human beings to talk to us about their new book, Job Moves, Job Moves. As someone who has been deeply involved with talent acquisition and now I do career coaching for individuals, I just think the tool that they've pulled together on their website and understanding the quest that you're on which, by the way, we all have four quests that we typically are on to decide what our next move is going to be Highly recommend reading the book just to understand that.

Speaker 3: 1:53

This book, honestly, is giving people permission to hire their next job. We are all in that position. This is not where you're at the mercy of employers. This is really permission and an amazing opportunity and, honestly, the data to tell you no, what you really need to do is be honest with yourself about what you want, what your strengths are, and then go out there and hire your next job. This conversation was so fun for me just because a they're just so well-researched, great conversationalists and, honestly, gave a lot of really great tips on how do you really think about hiring your next job.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Yeah, if you want to feel empowered with your career and the decisions you're making around your career, this is the book to read and this is the episode to listen to. So with that, here's Michael and Bob. Let's just get to the point real quick. What's the biggest myth that folks tell themselves about their career, growth or progress?

Speaker 1: 3:00

The one that surprised me the most was how much they thought they got lucky to get their next job, and when you really kind of unpacked everything they said and how they did it, luck is more the fact that they were prepared and the opportunity appeared and they were able to actually seize it, and so I wouldn't call that luck, but they wouldn't assign any kind of causation to it. And what we found was that there are very simple things that actually have to happen to you to make you ready for the next job and then all of a sudden, you only see them when these other things happen to you.

Speaker 4: 3:30

So that's one of them. Bob, you stole mine. I was going to say the exact same thing, so I agree. The only other thing I might add is I think people discount the role that their network plays for them when they're looking for a job. They think it's a very solo like. I applied online to hundreds of jobs. These days, increasingly, AI supported me and they don't realize the importance of their network as part of that process that Bob alluded to. Coming in, making them aware of opportunities, helping them get the job, being the trusted broker right so that I will trust and actually hire you. Most jobs are filled by someone that you know in network. They're not filled by anonymous, random things. So that's the second one I might add is people discount the role of their network around them.

Speaker 1: 4:20

I'm going to add a third. The third thing to me was money. Money is a means to an end, so money turns out to be about respect, or money turns out to be I have to provide for my family. More Like. There's like five or six different definitions of why people want more money, not one. And you start to realize like people are mixing them all up and they're just using that lever of here. Let me offer you more money, and it's it's not just more money that makes job the work satisfying.

Speaker 2: 4:45

I love to hear you say that, because I just had a conversation with a friend who was feeling so down on themselves because they hadn't reached what they felt was success in terms of salary. And she's worked with incredible people, incredible organizations, but somehow that was the sole thing telling her or at least her own narrative that she has not been successful because of that one element. So it's good to remember that doesn't define your true success.

Speaker 1: 5:13

Well, but the fact is it's one of the wrong metrics, but it's a metric of how what success or progress feels like for them, and so when you start to put that there, you don't have the why of like. Really what I want is respect, and ultimately there's other ways to get respect, and so this is why, for example, sometimes a position change will actually help people feel that progress, and without a salary increase. There's many variables here at play and ultimately it was very fascinating because we did almost like the exit interview but the real exit interviews. We did over a thousand of them and it was so fun to hear the stories and what had to happen to them to make them ready to look and then ultimately how they found it. It was kind of what the book is all about.

Speaker 2: 5:50

Yeah, I love it. What gets in the way of true progress? What? How do we remove it?

Speaker 4: 5:57

Part of it is. I mean, starting with that, we don't actually know what progress looks like for us, right? So we'll tell ourselves these storylines. Money is a great example. I want more money, and once you want more money, you want more and more. There's no limit to that, right, without understanding underneath causality of what's actually driving me to say these are the things that are not good enough in my current role, these are the priorities that I really want to get in my next role. And so not really understanding what progress looks like for you, I think is actually a big thing that gets in the way of progress. And then the second one that's maybe sort of goes in concert with that is I don't actually know how to make the trade-offs for that next role to get the progress that I really desire.

Speaker 4: 6:42

And the thinking behind that is a fewfold One. There's no perfect job on every dimension. Every job is going to have some suck in it, it's going to have some things that I don't love about it. But what are the things that I'm going to consciously choose, not settle for, but say like, hey, I'm going to take the lower salary so that I get the basically non-existent commute, I get to have the title I get to be around my kids, whatever the set of things are. We could drill down deeper into all of those, but how do I make those trade-offs? Most people, I think, don't know how to make those and as a result, they get caught up in roles that sound good in paper. They're quick returns to ego, but they're not actually helping them make that progress.

Speaker 2: 7:24

Yeah, I believe it. I think I've definitely found myself in that position, right. And then, when you don't measure the trade-offs and what's really important to you, you find yourself in the same position just two years later, like here I am again.

Speaker 4: 7:39

The yellow brick road was supposed to lead somewhere, but somehow I just looped back and we're right where we started.

Speaker 1: 7:44

I have one more to add on this. I think one of the other things is people don't have a realistic or real understanding of what they're good at, what they suck at, what gives them energy, what they don't really know who they are and how they're driven. They haven't taken the time to study themselves, and so that's part of this is having people reflect back and find those moments where they got energy and find out those moments where the energy got sucked out of them. And just because you're good at it doesn't mean you like to do it, and so part of it is being able to actually know who you are and know what you're good at. But I always think for me, the thing to learn most is what do you suck at and how do you actually realize like you don't need to get better at that?

Speaker 4: 8:27

You need to find a teammate who's actually who loves to do this stuff you suck at, yeah, and actually, mel, just stay on that for a moment, cause Bob put me on the hot seat in the last week or two on this, where he was like saying but you're so. I stopped wanting to manage people when my twin girls were born in 2014. And Bob was like but you're really good at managing, like that was something that was like a superpower of yours, and I'm like. It was like but you're really good at managing. That was like a superpower of yours. And I'm like it's the last thing I freaking want to do. And he was basically like right, because just because you're good at it, the context changed doesn't mean you get energy from it anymore.

Speaker 4: 8:56

You did Right, but here's the thing. It goes back to your friend who was telling themselves the narrative of like I need to make this much money or whatever it is. We often say like, oh, success is then I'm going to be a manager and I'm going to have this big team and I'm going to measure based on the direct reports and their direct reports, and et cetera, et cetera. And like maybe that isn't what gives you energy at this stage, even if it is something that you could do, but we don't pay attention to the context and those signals about ourselves.

Speaker 2: 9:25

Yeah, Just because you can doesn't mean you should always right. Just a good rule of thumb and your, our priorities and our values change over time, so that's constantly like you have your twins and so that's right.

Speaker 2: 9:38

Things change. Okay. Something I loved I'm going to pivot really quick. Something I really loved in the book because, as a career coach myself and a former recruiter, I always tell people you're interviewing your employer just as much as they're interviewing you as a reminder. And what I really loved was you both said it is critical to hire your next job. Why Tell our folks why?

Speaker 1: 10:04

So this is one of the things that we flipped the lens on, and we used a theory that I built with Clay Christensen called jobs to be done, and the whole premise is people don't buy products, they hire them to make progress in their life.

Speaker 1: 10:16

And so part of this was to realize, at some point in time, when you talk to people around hiring, you start to realize actually the lens is flipped. And the fact is, know people around hiring, you start to realize, like it's actually the lens is flipped and the fact is we, as an employer, you think you hire somebody, but the fact is everybody's an at will employee, or most of them are at will employees and they choose to come to you or not, and so it's actually they're hiring you more than their, than the employer is hiring the employee. And so you start to realize when that's the case, you actually need to study the employees and say why, what causes them to say today's the day I'm going to leave and what causes you to say today's the day I'm going to move to this thing better? It's really, ultimately, we're trying to get employees to hire better because once you find the place, it's the right place. It's not work anymore.

Speaker 4: 11:12

Yeah, Right, yeah, I was. I was thinking, mel, when you, when, when you said that like of of how you're coaching people to interview just as much as they're being interviewed. That really changes the agency, it really changes the equation, and I think it goes back to what Bob said in the beginning around luck is, the reason people don't do it is they think that I'm going to cross my fingers and just hope that this works out and I'll be lucky enough to be the one chosen for this job, and they're not thinking about what their priorities are. What does progress mean for me and that I get to choose? Is this the job I'm going to do in exchange for the benefits around, and not just around money, vacation, et cetera, but also the work I get to do on a daily basis and who I interact with, and so forth.

Speaker 2: 11:59

Yeah, I was equating it to being an adult and realizing you still have free will to make choices. Like I want a piece of cake, so I'm going to go have one for dinner, and you sometimes forget, in all of the everyday schmutz of life, like, oh, I do have agency and free will in these choices.

Speaker 4: 12:17

So we're the social contagion right Of like. We tell ourselves these narratives of how we think we want to be for others and how we think we're supposed to show up as opposed to. Well, what do you want and how do we understand that?

Speaker 1: 12:30

The other thing to me is the fact is is that when you study kind of the employee, employer side of this and you learn about the job description, you realize that the job description is just made up.

Speaker 1: 12:41

It's just made up and so everybody's trying to morph themselves to fit this unrealistic ideal situation of like make the people fit the job, when the reality is is what we should be doing is actually shaping the work that to fit the people. Because when you actually do that intentionally, you start to realize like okay, I suck at these three things, so, and it's part of my job, so how do I actually figure out how to get rid of that and do more of the stuff I'm really good at and find somebody to do the stuff that I suck at? And so it's this notion of like. At some point, if you really study how people make job descriptions, it's either they copy it, they do chat, gpt, they then take all the things that they don't want to do and add it to the list and it's just, and so as an employee, you don't realize that that's actually all made up and very negotiable in some cases on certain dimensions.

Speaker 3: 13:33

I want to back up what you're saying because, having led a lot of talent organizations, I can tell you that most people don't even know what they're hiring for or what they want people to really do. And the idea of opening up the opportunity to have that conversation and figure out how could this fit together, I think is really on the table, because it is shocking how many hiring managers and, honestly, how many like talent organizations don't really know what they want their people to do.

Speaker 1: 13:58

By the way, the notion of a hiring manager. I got confused by the whole process because I'm thinking, well, the hiring manager is the person inside the HR. I'm like no, no, that's the person that actually they're going to work for. I'm like, yeah, but who teaches them to write a job description? Nobody.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Nobody.

Speaker 1: 14:13

It's compliance cut and paste For half the time you're not even trained to be a manager. You're trained to be a leader, but nobody teaches management skills anymore right. You're just left out on that.

Speaker 4: 14:24

And this is why the job description has been so enduring, right? Is it's really a legal document to give me justification for my hiring and firing down the road as well, More than to your point, Francesca, like an actual set of what's this person going to do? How do I want them to contribute? What's the outcomes right? What's the work?

Speaker 2: 14:42

Yeah, we need a whole revamp on the job description. Yes, indeed.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Michael and I are going down that road. It's like we wrote this primarily for employees, to empower employees, because a billion people a year switch jobs. Most of them don't actually switch jobs in a positive way, and so part of it is how do we actually help them make better decisions so they can actually feel like they've made progress in their career. But along the way we've realized like there's so much about the employer around, kind of how do you manage, how do you do performance reviews, how do you think about fit, how do you actually rethink the hiring process and all those kinds of things, and it's really helping us kind of rethink a different way of kind of seeing it from that perspective.

Speaker 2: 15:23

We love to see it. So do we of seeing it from that perspective. We love to see it In the book. You touched on the great talent shortage and what's happening by 20, that it could exceed 85 million people. And we hear stories from folks all the time how they're applying to a thousand jobs and they have no luck, or they've been out of work for a year, right. But when you hear this one story, there's this massive talent shortage, and then you hear this other narrative that nobody can find a job. These two things are conflicting, right. So I'm hoping I can do some myth busting with you both here. Do employees actually hold the card.

Speaker 4: 15:59

So I think it's interesting. And let's just go deeper in the paradox, because the other piece of this is, if you looked at the job market, you'd be like it's actually really healthy what economists consider full employment, and people are coming off long-term unemployment and coming into the job market, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and yet it's taking longer and longer to hire. There's articles like in the Wall Street Journal even Harvard MBAs can't find jobs, and so there's all this anxiety on all sides of the market and I think what's happening is that there's a lot of paralysis because of that lack of clarity that we were just talking about of what do I really want? How would I know someone can actually do the things that I want them to do, and do they really know what they want to do and the trade-offs they're willing to make to go get it? So there's like a lot of lack of clarity on all sides. Might there be a skills gap? That's contributing Absolutely, but might it also be that we just don't have clarity about what work looks like and should be and so forth?

Speaker 4: 16:59

I think also the case, and in terms of this talent shortage. Look, all these are projections based off of a lot of macro stuff, so I think, believe it as far as you can throw a piece of paper, but I think the bottom line is that we know that there's a lot of change in skills. Ai is certainly changing the job market. The baby boomers are leaving, millennials are starting to retire, there are lower birth rates of people coming up underneath, and so that's sort of the dynamic in which you have this maelstrom we just described.

Speaker 4: 17:31

But from my perspective, employees do carry a lot more cards than they realize or would be employees. But it's not through this anonymous online posting pray for quote, unquote luck right Approach. It's instead getting clarity about myself what are my priorities, what's the work I want to do, and looking for fit, rather than just hoping someone hires me and me being able to go to the employer and be like this is what I can do, this is what I suck at. This is how I can help you and have that conversation, because I think it's a very different dialogue when you're coming in with your cards, so to speak.

Speaker 1: 18:12

Face up that way, market has been automating the insanity because at some point it starts at what I call there's three layers of language. There's a pablum layer of language where we can, hey, how was your day? Oh, it was great, right, but it really wasn't great. Or if it was great, what made it be great right? And you start to realize that you have to get down from the pablum level to the fantasy level, past the fantasy down to the causal level, like what caused it to be a great day right? And so part part of it is what they did is they literally are taking everybody's resume. They're filtering it in certain ways. They're basically doing all these words Like I was trying to be on a public board and one of the things that they said is I had to have the word business leader in my CV like four to eight times, or I wouldn't even get past the filter.

Speaker 1: 18:51

I'm like what's that? Like, how does that work? I'm an engineer and I was taught to simplify and then automate, and so part of this is what we're trying to do is like how do we get this down to? What is a good job look like for me as an employee? What's the work that I need to get done. That helps me as the corporation. And how do we? Actually it's fit. It's just like product, market fit, but it's employee, employer fit, and so it's this notion of being able to do that and I think, like you said, if we stay at the pablum level, it's going to look like employment's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Because when your answer to the question is what's your greatest weakness? Oh, I work too hard. That's just not like. Come on, everybody sucks at something and you have to be able to actually be very articulated. What we found from the book is that when people can talk about look, I love to do these things, I get energy from doing this and oh, by the way, I can do these things, but they really suck the energy out of me. It allows people to actually be humble and become real. Which the pieces of paper?

Speaker 4: 19:47

don't do If we can just stay on it for one second right. Essentially, the employers we've already established are looking for unicorns, like these huge job descriptions with all these skills and whatever else. So the individuals on paper are then constructing themselves to look like superheroes, which the employers don't believe. And so if you come in there with an articulate conversation around, this is where I get energy, this is what I'm awesome at, this sucks my energy, this is what I suck at, etc. Etc. You're being honest and now we can talk about fit and you go from one of a thousand applications to one of three or four people who actually are going to fill what I need to make progress on the employer side. But it's because we've broken out of this game of like unicorns and superheroes that we all know is a lie.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Oh, agreed, it sounds like you have another book in your back pocket with the clarity shortage going on on both sides. So the unicorns. As a former recruiter, oh yeah, working with folks wanting the unicorn.

Speaker 1: 20:45

I think the other part is it's what the resume has, is what you did, it's not what you do, and just because you did, it means you don't like to do it. And so again it's this lack of clarity around what do you want to be doing and what are you actually good at and what gives you energy?

Speaker 3: 20:58

It's like this massive search for honesty on both sides. I feel like if the job market was dating, this would just be like. You know what I'm saying. You know it's like. This is how you mentioned. A million people change jobs every year. That's 30% of the workforce, which I think most people don't think that many people change jobs, but they do. And the reasons why you outlined in the book. You talk about four quests. What are those reasons why people leave?

Speaker 4: 21:47

First, as a sort of prelude, we found 30 forces that are pushing and pulling people to say, today's the day I might want to switch, and when certain combinations of them come together, they overwhelm the anxieties and the habits that are sort of holding us in place. And so the four quests for progress are essentially looking at the clusters, or closest to each other, if you will. That comprise a quest, or what Bob earlier would have called the job to be done. And so the first one we saw is what we call get out. So these are people I don't like the way I'm being managed. This is a job to nowhere. The company's going nowhere, fast stuff like that. It's a lot of push right and they're like I got to get out and fast.

Speaker 4: 22:29

On the flip side of that, there's what we call the take the next steppers, if you will, and these are people like hey, career, personal, whatever life milestones hitting, I'm ready to take that next step in my career. It feels almost like the logical next thing I would do. This is the closest to the career ladder, although it's not synonymous with it, and sort of it feels like I'm going to build on what gives me energy. I'm going to build on my current capabilities and let's keep on margin. Those are sort of the two poles, if you will. And then we have folks that say I want to regain alignment. And so these are people who say I actually like how I'm energized at the moment, but I don't like what they're asking me in terms of my capabilities to do, or I feel fundamentally disrespected on the what I do, and so these are people that I want to regain alignment in terms of the skills assets that I get to use on the job.

Speaker 4: 23:23

And then, on the other side of it is the regain control folks, and they're basically saying I actually, in this case, like what I get to do, but I don't like how it engages my energy or my time and things like that. I feel fundamentally out of whack. This might be the work-life balance folks, as an example. This might be people that say I'm being micromanaged. This might be people saying God, they're telling me I have to come into the office five days a week when I know I do the job well, when I get to work two days at home, what the heck's going on here? So these are the folks that are looking to regain control.

Speaker 4: 23:56

And basically these are four quests. They're not absolute. As you probably saw when you take the quiz. It gives you sort of a most likely fit score for each of them, but it helps you understand what's progress for me right now. And I'll give you a classic example. If you're like regain control and you're just going to march up the totem pole and take the next logical job right on the mythical career ladder in your current employer, that's probably going to be a fundamental mismatch for the things that you're actually looking for, and so you really want to understand what's driving me, what's causing me to say today's the day and then start to use that as a sorting mechanism.

Speaker 3: 24:37

Yeah, the assessment is really powerful and I consider myself someone that is savvy when it comes to my career or even knowing myself. I feel like I try to be very introspective and I will tell you, when I read the book, I realized that I haven't been as introspective as I could have throughout my career. I was just like go to whatever was paying more or the next step up. It was one of those two things. That's how I made my choices, even though it wasn't necessarily the work I liked to do, or even putting myself in a healthier situation. And I'm wondering, flipping this from, like, an employer perspective, why should employers care about the four quests?

Speaker 1: 25:16

The reason is twofold is like, at some point the current employees are going to want to make progress and if you don't have opportunities that actually match the quests of where they want to go, the reality is that they're going to have to go somewhere else, and so that's the first aspect here is that when we talk about trying to have company loyalty, it really is. It's not company loyalty like brand loyalty. This is literally like I'm willing to stay because you're actually looking out for me. Most people, they end up having to take a job because there's a vacancy in the job and the fact is it's not part of their career path, and they end up having to slot in because, oh, we have this opportunity for you, but it's not with any respect to who they are necessarily or what they want to do.

Speaker 1: 26:02

It's so we can actually keep the business going. So I think part of that is one. I think the second part is that to realize these quests, you can actually recruit completely differently. Go find people who are actually wanting to get out, Because at some point in time right now, when we put a job out there, we're only looking for the people who've already raised their hand. But I know that he's got these pushes I can attract and say, hey, don't want to be micromanaged anymore, Want to actually have a place where you can do these kinds of things. Come, come, talk to us.

Speaker 2: 26:25

My favorite recent example of a recruiter doing this really well was on LinkedIn this week where, in response to Zuckerberg's recent interview with Joe Rogan, an interview called out hey, if you don't want to work for a guy like that in an aggressive environment, come work for us, and it was flooded with comments. So I just think it's interesting for companies.

Speaker 1: 26:46

you know they'll win if they get ahead of it, and that's the thing is. But I think the employers have to realize they have to talk about.

Speaker 3: 26:53

What's the work you want me to do Is it the work you want them to do and is it also kind of tapping into that emotional need around, what they need to see in the quest, for example? You mentioned like if you don't want to be micromanaged, but is it tapping into that quest language?

Speaker 1: 27:08

Yes, and it's using that language we talk about. There's things that push you to leave and there's things that pull you to the new job, and it's ultimately the trade-offs you make that actually make it happen. For example, who's thinking about leaving? We talked to people who really left their job and went somewhere else, and so there's a big difference between wanting to do it and doing it, and so ultimately, there's a certain amount of energy that has to be part of it, and we have to understand both sides of that.

Speaker 4: 27:32

I think it's a really cool hack also right If you're a marketer or if you're trying to attract and understanding who you're trying to attract the pushes and pulls that cause people to leave. This is ultimately like their language, lived experience. This is like actually what's happening to them. It's not invented from what we would call the supply side. The company is imagining why someone might want to come to them. Companies imagining why someone might want to come to them. This is the real energy that causes someone to say today's the day and you get to use that to get the people that are right for your role. And, by the way, you get to continue to use that information on the day-to-day.

Speaker 4: 28:09

Because here's the third thing I would say we know that roughly two-thirds, depending on the survey of workers are completely disengaged. Call it quietly quitting whatever you want to do from their current role. That's not an employee I want to be hiring on my team. That's not someone I want. I want someone who's engaged, hard charging, doing a great job. So how do I make sure I understand the forces acting on them right now so I can better engage the people that I actually want to keep on my team?

Speaker 1: 28:40

I work mostly in the startup world and so I have some people have taken this and they've taken the pushes, which are, you know, do you feel micromanaged? Are you pushed across your billies? Are you bored? Do you not know where to go next? Like there's a list of 13 kind of things that have to happen, and if any four of them happen, that's when you start to get activated. But they're using that as part of the sit down and the quarterly review to say are any of these things happening? If they are, let's talk about them, because if there's no push, there's no way they're going to start thinking about anything else, and so part of it is to realize that the pushes are the things that actually create the space in the brain for you to kind of go like all right, I got to look somewhere else. So there's these little things, but those little things then accumulate into two things, and then three things, and then four things is where you go all right, it's time for me to look.

Speaker 3: 29:24

Yeah, I think, organizationally doing those kinds of audits as a team or even as an org I'm thinking for my own work and doing like culture strategy looking at those things and seeing is this true in our organization, is this the type of culture we have? And then we can get into the marketing exercise of saying, if you want this, this is where you can come in terms of us. So that's awesome. I want to go back to the employee side, because in the book you also talk about things like progress versus progression and I'm curious if you can talk through that.

Speaker 4: 29:52

So progression is that career ladder, the supply side right, we have our org charts. Career ladder, the supply side right, we have our org charts. You come in as an entry-level worker, probably an individual contributor. We imagine that you start to move up, you become manager, director, right, on and on and on, and it's sort of that climbing of the career ladder, the next step. We just keep on this progression. It's the thing that drives. Frankly, mel, like your friend who's like I had to be making this amount of money right, because that's progression, whereas progress is all the things we've been talking around, these quests and what is driving your energy and getting more of that in the next role, in the current context you're in, and so forth, and those things sometimes line up Progression as an organization or employer would think about it and progress as an individual. But our research suggests that at least 75% of the time they're not lining up that there's actually divergence between the two.

Speaker 1: 30:46

That's huge. I think the other part, though, is that as you start to think about it is when you get to progress. Most people feel like they have two lives. I have a work life and I have a home life. The reality is we have one life, we don't have two and two lives I have a work life and I have a home life. The reality is we have one life, we don't have two, and the fact is is we have to learn how to merge the two, and the reason why somebody might be great for the position but something happens at home, got to take care of the parents, have babies, whatever it is, the fact is, life changes and then, all of a sudden, what you want to make progress on before is very different than now, and nobody takes into account that we have one life and we have a whole bunch of things we have to move and, ultimately, how do we make of these spheres as very separate you?

Speaker 4: 31:21

jumped on your career track. You stayed there and that was it, and then you had your life and that was going on. I don't think that was ever really true to Bob's point. But now individuals are living increasingly in a way that shows just how much of a lie that is and how interdependent our careers and the rest of our lives are. And it's one of the reasons Bob will tell someone when he's coaching them he's like look, you don't have to get it all in the job. You can have a side hustle and then you can volunteer here and then make sure you're doing this there and together you get the things that are most important to you. But you look holistically and organizations need to sort of recognize that that's true for their employees. They can put their head in the sand and pretend it's not, but that doesn't mean the individuals aren't going to live their lives that way.

Speaker 3: 32:23

This might be an obvious question, but why don't you think people have done this type of introspection before, like why it's hard, it's hard, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 32:32

I mean, one of the things is we wrote the book, we have nine steps, like, and if you do all nine steps, you're gonna be like amazing, but the reality is not everybody's gonna do every step and but there are there's three or four of these steps are really really essential. For example, energy drivers and energy drains. You need to start to pay attention to where are those moments where you walk into a situation and you get energy. That's a thing you need to actually pay attention to, and the fact is is most people don't pay attention to that, or they know it but they don't account for it and they don't actually think about, like, what is it about this situation that gives me energy? Is it the people? Is it the topic? Is it the pressure? There's variables in that situation that does that, and so it's making people way more mindful about where do they get their energy from and where does their energy go when it gets sucked out.

Speaker 4: 33:19

I, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. The biggest question we often get when we show the pushes and pulls to audiences, they say, like money's not on that list or like the surface level thing, and I think the thing is like we've been telling ourselves a story. Bob would call it at the pablum level, I would call it. You know, we're not yet at causality right, and so what I think this book and the research frankly does is we drill down into real root causes and then we gave language to that causality. That hopefully makes it I don't want to say it's easy, it's not, but easier so that more people can start to identify what really is driving me at this point in time.

Speaker 2: 34:22

I know we can't cover the full nine-step journey and I think folks absolutely need to read your books, but one of the pieces of the journey that stood out to me was the experiences, not features. Part of that.

Speaker 4: 34:35

Yeah, absolutely. I mean features. Right are the things like the money, the vacation, the title, all those sort of surface level or problem level that we were talking about before. Experiences are what do I actually do on a day-to-day basis in the role the doing right and, as Bob would push us, what will you do as opposed to what have you done, and what is this going to look like and how is it going to integrate with the rest of your life on a day-to-day basis?

Speaker 4: 35:02

The analogy we use in the book is thinking about real estate listings where they tout lots of features natural light, granite countertops, bob's built homes so he can talk more about this and the reality is they all start to blend into each other and it's not until you actually think about how am I actually going to live in this space, what are the experiences that I want, that then features actually start to take on meaning around. How will it or won't it work with my life? Right, in my case, any house I live in. I need a quiet space where I can do my work, where the kids are not going to interfere and run around as they come home from school and the like. That all of a sudden gives definition to what is a good or bad choice for me, not whether there's natural light and granite countertops in the abstract.

Speaker 1: 35:49

The reason why I love the house one is you can look at a listing, but you don't know what it's like to live in that house until you go there. And so part of it is this reality is like where's the grocery store and who are the neighbors and where's school. And you start to realize at some point they tell you all about the house but you don't even get a feel for like how to live in it. And so it's this notion of, well, we'll get you a virtual tour. That's not the thing, man tour.

Speaker 4: 36:14

That's not the thing, man. No right. My mother-in-law right now is looking at downsizing and she sent us a place that she clearly had never been to and I was like, oh boy, that's a busy intersection, there's no way that's going to work. But she had to go. She went and she emailed me. She's like, wow, that's a busy intersection, no way that's going to work. And I'm like yep.

Speaker 2: 36:28

There's an airport nearby or a church bell goes off.

Speaker 4: 36:32

every Sunday it's like a Burger King on one side and a McDonald's drive-thru on the other, and I was like I already know the answer to this question, but go for it. But part of it is they have to experience it?

Speaker 1: 36:40

No, the experience is important.

Speaker 4: 36:42

Right and her imagining oh wow, what's my day-to-day going to look like? Against that, there's nothing that replaces that.

Speaker 3: 37:00

Yeah, yeah, got to do your homework, got to do your homework. I want to flip over to where work is going, because I mean I'm excited to be alive right now, but there's just a ton of shit happening either politically with AI, yada, yada. Where do you see work going in the next two to five years, especially as it relates to job movement?

Speaker 4: 37:12

Look, obviously the velocity is high right now and the anxiety around it, I think, is higher. I think the reality is AI at the moment is more of an efficiency innovation. It's sort of automating and allowing us to do what we already did a little bit better. I think the evidence is suggesting it actually helps those who are lowest performers be better. I do think the reality is it's taking out a lot of entry-level work right away, a lot of employers, the jobs that they had open as entry-level roles. They're taking them off the table, and so that's, I think, where it's maybe making the biggest immediate impact because they can imagine how AI allows that next person on the rung to quickly use that tool to do it and then actually become more productive. For people starting their careers or switching industries or whatnot, getting experiences when you're out of before the job market, in schooling, internships, entrepreneurially, side hustles, whatever it is is going to become more and more important to show you know what to do and you can actually do the work.

Speaker 4: 38:14

I think the bigger term transformations that people love to sort of dream and speculate about. My own belief is that that's not going to come until new business models and organizations are built around these technologies sort of organically and it goes to how every technology has made its biggest impact, whether it's electricity, where people realize, oh, we can distribute, we don't have to put everything around the watermill anymore and things like that, and we can do factories differently, or I mean even frankly, digital advertising, when it's sort of a P&G brand that wants everyone to come in the store because of the way they've thought about consumer packaged goods, versus a startup that's thinking much more targeted, performance-based advertising. Technologies, I think, are most transformational when business models are actually built around them as an enabler, as opposed to trying to cram it into the existing models. I think we're a few years away from that still.

Speaker 3: 39:07

Yeah, we're just starting to see people think about AI-first organizations.

Speaker 4: 39:11

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Yeah, I look back to history on this. When I was early in the workforce, I worked at Ford and they had something called the typing pool. This was just a bunch of people who wrote, who typed, and they had carbon paper the whole. You guys have no idea that this existed, but the big thing was like, what is word processing going to do to the typing pool? And you started to realize that it's somebody. Everybody was against it because the typing pool is going to go away. Where are they going to work? Well, it turns out those people could actually write copy and they could do all these other things and do much higher level things.

Speaker 1: 39:42

And so, channeling Clay here, clay would say what we want to do is have people work at the top of their profession, and the work that sucks is the work that we want AI to be doing for us. The thing is, we will still think more than AI, but AI can actually provide us the input to actually help us think better. I think that what's going to happen is it's going to force people to be kind of again. You know, my children ask me when they're like, what's going to happen to all the cab drivers when we have self-driving cars, they're going to figure out something else to do. They don't get to retire and they don't get to move out of that thing and they'll always be somebody who wants to actually have a human in the cab.

Speaker 1: 40:19

But the reality is it's changing the market and basically being able to say but how do we get humans as a whole to basically step up to the next level? Because we got some technology that can take care of things at the lowest level that we don't need to worry about. I'm very bullish on where it's going to go. The question is do people really want to work differently and think better and harder?

Speaker 3: 40:39

I think that's the thing, because it's like, when you think about, we can do this higher level thinking, this higher work as well, that does take work, because it's breaking out of what we've been doing I mean, we're talking about knowing thyself in this whole conversation and then it's like how do you get to that higher level? But I think we'll get there. We have gotten there before, we'll get there, it's just the next.

Speaker 4: 40:59

And there'll be dislocation right as we go through it, like there's going to be a whole bunch of people in the moment that it's stressful and they're going to have to work through it and we'll figure it out. But I think over time Bob's right, that's the direction it goes and the pathway at the moment, frankly, is those people who help people make progress on that journey. They're going to become employers of choice as well, in my mind.

Speaker 3: 41:21

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. Anything you would recommend employees do now.

Speaker 4: 41:26

I think having a clear sense of your strengths but maybe equally what you're not strong at and you don't want to do and what you are going to choose to sort of say I'm going to suck at, so that you know what to build on and you know what to let others do, or let AI do for you, or whatever it might be, I think is a really important step. And then the second one comes from the book. It's this career balance sheet idea. This is where I think this idea is powerful is understanding the useful life of your current assets and where and how am I going to have to invest to make them still relevant in the future and have some sense of? Are those trade-offs that I want to make in terms of my time and money to keep those things current, or are there other things I want to invest in?

Speaker 1: 42:07

The thing to me, is the energy drivers and energy drains. Like the fact is is just being able to know what are the things that have to come together to enable you to have energy is when I'm coaching people. What I'm doing is I'm like I want you to go through the next week and just start to write down when it happens because I don't think people are actually aware of it and then start to then parameterize it to understand, like what's going on Well, oh, I get to learn a lot of new things, okay, or, or it's I get to organize things. Like my wife is in finance and the thing is my wife loves to balance. Like when it balances, it's like I hit a serotonin. Like, oh, my god, I just like that balance is perfect.

Speaker 1: 42:44

I'm like, yeah, I I get nothing from that, but she gets a lot of it's knowing where it comes from, but then all the conversely, knowing when the energy gets pulled out of you, because a lot of times you're so caught up emotionally that like it's almost like you need to step back from yourself and look at the situation and go like why is this basically draining all my energy? What's going on here? And it's like it's people, it's, it's situations, it's time of day, it's like a whole bunch of things and start to see those patterns. I it's like a whole bunch of things and start to see those patterns.

Speaker 4: 43:13

I think that's, to me, the biggest advice I'd give people and, by the way, I don't want this to be said the wrong way, but I think it's actually the easiest step you can reflect on in the book in many ways, because, as Bob said, it's not something that I have to lock myself into a closet and think three hours. It's literally I'm living life. When am I in flow? When did that suck? Okay, start to notice the patterns, start to interrogate it.

Speaker 3: 43:38

Right, just keep a sticky right and start noticing and unpacking them. I did it on my cell phone.

Speaker 4: 43:46

It's kind of like keeping a food diary it's not, and it's just you know, you just get it in the habit.

Speaker 3: 43:48

It's an excellent exercise.

Speaker 4: 43:49

And the cool thing is, you don't have to then figure out how big was that portion and how do I measure it, because that's the part about the food diary I could never figure out.

Speaker 2: 44:07

We like to do rapid round because we want to know you as human beings, aside from just your work and your book. Does that sound okay?

Speaker 4: 44:13

Yep, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 44:14

All right. What music are you listening to right now?

Speaker 4: 44:17

I'm eclectic on music tastes. I've been really into the Merrily we Roll Along soundtrack, though the last week and a half I have not been able to get it out of my head. We saw it on Broadway a few months ago at this point, I guess, and it all of a sudden came back into my subconsciousness. So I've been really enjoying that.

Speaker 1: 44:37

So I'm listening to mostly I don't know the kind of music, but it's basically Bobby Alua and Matt Duncan. It's a little bit of reggae, a little bit of beach vibe, a little bit of background beat, but it's just. It's one of those things where, because I'm ADHD, like I like to have the same music play over and over and over again, and so it's one of those things I'm deep down into that one where it's like I've probably listened to the same playlist now 50 times. So that's where I'm at Nothing wrong with that. It just it just makes it lighter. It's a, it's light and airy. That's all I can tell you.

Speaker 2: 45:10

And does it make you feel warm, even though it's five?

Speaker 1: 45:14

degrees it reminds me of going to Mexico is what it does and it's like okay, here we go.

Speaker 2: 45:19

Yeah, love it. Okay, what are you reading right now?

Speaker 4: 45:24

I'm currently reading a draft of my father's book that he thinks he's writing for publication.

Speaker 2: 45:33

He thinks Well based on what I'm reading, so you're getting the feedback before.

Speaker 1: 45:41

I'm giving it to him, so maybe I should just leave it there. Does he know our podcast? Probably not.

Speaker 4: 45:43

He's got some more work to do. If he thinks it's ready for primetime, okay.

Speaker 1: 45:49

How about you, Bob? So for me I'm listening to. I have a couple of books I was listening to. One is called Radical Humility. It's very interesting. I would say I learned my humility from the best, who was Clay Christensen, but ultimately I didn't understand kind of like the components of how it works and what it is and the reality is. It's very interesting to kind of see how this person has basically broken it down and figured it out. The other book I'm reading is Fingerprints of the Gods. I'm very deep into basically electromagnetic waves and basically geometry and how the two work together, and so it's just this notion of a lot of things in ancient history. Take into account this notion of geometry and frequencies and just I don't know why I'm down there, but it's very fun, Very fun for me.

Speaker 2: 46:32

You know, in Chichen Itza, where if you clap it makes the sound of the bird in Mexico. Is that related to this?

Speaker 1: 46:39

book. The notion is that frequency, like everything, has a frequency and everything actually generates a frequency. And when you start to see natural harmonics happen, it's kind of when you get those moments where you get energy. It's related back to energy drivers and drains. But it really is this notion of like, where does that emotion come from and how do you actually get it? And it comes from, I believe, electromagnetic waves and basically geometry. So it's very deep, very deep down the rabbit hole. Sorry, no, don't apologize.

Speaker 2: 47:08

I have a million more questions, but yeah, who do you both really admire?

Speaker 4: 47:13

Am I allowed to say Bob? I feel like Bob is someone who has superpowers, who sees around corners before things happen because of his superpowers and knew we would be friends and colleagues and get to collaborate with each other Well before I understood this fact. And the reality is it's like it's come together because he understands causality in a way that I'm constantly aspiring and learning from. So I'll say you, bob, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to say you, no, I have a feeling I know who you're going to say yeah, I have to say my wife.

Speaker 1: 47:46

I most admire my wife. So I'm a neurodivergent person. I've had three close head brain injuries. I can't read, I can't write. I've done seven startups, I've worked on 3,500 products. I've had four children in five years, but my wife is the one who holds it all together. And that is just one of those things where I'm working on a book now around relationships and finding your life partner. And one of the things you realize is I thought when I got married I could not possibly love my wife anymore and I realized it was actually the lowest point of how much I love my wife. And it's just grown so much that we've been married to 35 years and it's just one of those things where we've been able to kind of just move. And it's one of those things where who are opposites don't get along well or there's there's always friction, but we know how to actually dance together very well and so it's it's it's just, it's just a joy to spend time with her and be with her oh someone cutting onions in here.

Speaker 2: 48:43

Yeah, I'm like, oh shit, I'm getting teared up I knew he was gonna pull at the heartstrings all right last question what's one piece of advice you want everyone to know, and it can be related to the book or just something personal that you want to share?

Speaker 1: 49:04

I will tell you that I think that people should be much more cognizant, explicit, intentional about the progress they're trying to make in their life. Every time you buy something, every time you change something, it always has an intention, and the more you can actually become intentional about it, that one is the less change you'll make and the more meaningful changes you'll make. And so this is just one example in your career. But like finding your life partner, buying a new pair of socks, Like I know it sounds crazy, but the fact is is all of them have that same thing of like. Do I really need a new pair of socks? And why do I need a new pair of socks? And how are these socks better than the socks I had before? And so being intentional about the changes in the purchases you make is probably one of the most satisfying things you can do, because it allows you to actually be explicit about the progress you make and take control of your life.

Speaker 4: 49:55

Far be it for me to try to build on that, because I've tried to take this into my own life, as Bob knows, with every decision I make. Now I'll say something totally different, which is a motto that I always live by, which is a kuna matata from Lion King. But no worries, I think we overstress and have a lot of anxiety that are about things that we can't control, and we should focus much more on the things that we can and worry less about the details and keep the big picture in mind.

Speaker 2: 50:25

I love it. This episode was produced, edited and all things by us myself, Mel Plett and Francesca Ranieri. Our music is by Pink Zebra and if you loved this conversation and you want to contribute your thoughts with us, please do. You can visit us at yourworkfriends.com, but you can also join us over on LinkedIn. We have a LinkedIn community page and we have the TikToks and Instagram, so please join us in the socials. And if you like this and you've benefited from this episode and you think someone else can benefit from this episode, please rate and subscribe. We'd really appreciate it. That helps keep us going. Take care, friends. Bye friends. Bye friends.

Rethinking Work & Workplace Culture

Your Work Friends Podcast: Why are we here? Rethinking Work & Workplace Culture with Jennifer Moss

Work is broken…

Burnout is at an all-time high. Engagement is at an all-time low. And work? Well, it’s not working for a lot of us. In this episode, we sit down with Jennifer Moss, workplace culture expert and author of Why Are We Here?, to talk about why so many of us feel unfulfilled at work—and what leaders actually need to do to fix it. We bust the biggest myths about workplace wellbeing, talk about why hope (yes, hope) is a leadership strategy, and dig into why Gen Z is side-eyeing corporate life.

If you’ve ever thought, “Is this really all there is?”—you’re not alone. Let’s rethink work, together.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

Okay, finish this sentence. Work should feel more like blank and less like blank.

Speaker 2: 0:06

More like fuel for you know your sense of accomplishment, Less like a grind Damn right.

Speaker 1: 0:15

Love it, Love it hey, welcome to your work, friend. I'm francesca ranieri and I'm mel plett. Mel, what's going?

Speaker 3: 0:37

on. You know, spring is springing and it's sprung. Almost. Last week was the arctic, the cold here, but this week it is sunshine almost until 6 30 so, and I hear the birds chirping. I will take it. How about? What's going on with you?

Speaker 1: 0:55

say what you will about portland in the winter. We've had a very sunny winter for portland, but what most people might not know about port is in the winter the moss turns like an electric green. It's like almost fluorescent. So it's just a very cool time to be here. I love it. Yeah, pretty yeah. Yeah, I got to enjoy the nature. You know, got to enjoy the nature you do.

Speaker 3: 1:18

I think I'm one of those sad sufferers the seasonal affective disorder. I have one of those lamps. Have you seen those lamps that help you slowly wake up with the sunshine? I use that. I need the atmosphere to feel sunshine included.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Totally get it. Completely get it, completely get it. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:38

Well, we met with Jennifer Moss. Jennifer is a workplace expert, harvard Business Review columnist, author of Unlocking Happiness at Work, author of the Burnout Epidemic and now her new book, why Are we here? And it's all about creating workplace cultures where everyone wants to work and we just had such a fantastic conversation with her, Francesca. What did you think about this conversation?

Speaker 1: 2:06

Yeah, I was stoked to talk to Jennifer because she is, to me, the leading person to look at on burnout. Any of the work that Jennifer does it is absolutely locked and loaded with the latest research on things. To have her answer the question around how do you create a culture that people actually want to show up for was really interesting. The book is fascinating. She is someone that you know how you meet people like. They're so accomplished and they're so freaking good at what they do, and then they're just a very cool person on top of that. Jennifer Moss.

Speaker 3: 2:39

Yeah, 100%. She was amazing. I couldn't agree with you more. You and I talk about this all the time COVID and then our own life experiences and things that happen outside of work have really reprioritized what is meaningful for us and where our priorities stand, our values going forward, and I think so many people are going through kind of that level setting and gut check for themselves. What I really loved about Jennifer's book and I do want to read a quote that she started with that made me really think about what most people are going through. She mentions that people aren't less ambitious or lazy, we're just feeling uninspired, and that really stood out to me and I was like, yes, 100%. She's weaving together all of these really big concepts about work and providing tangible things that you can do today for yourself, for your team, to make workplaces that are inspiring.

Speaker 1: 3:35

It's practical, tangible, and most of the things that she talks about in the book and with us are things you can do in 20 minutes or less, sold in 20 minutes or less, 20 minutes or less, 20 minutes or less, 20 minutes or less. Like, come on, let's go, let's go, let's do this.

Speaker 3: 3:49

Yeah Well, friends with that, here's Jennifer Moss.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Jen, I'm going to jump right in here. What is the biggest myth about workplace idea? That you can't have one without the other. If you invest in well-being and you invest in employee happiness that somehow that's just like a nice to have and you're a human-centered leader and I think it's an ego thing like I'm just doing this for you because it's so important that people are happy and I'm a hero for that and instead it's really if you're a capitalist, if you want to be competitive you know I'm a hero for that and instead it's really if you're a capitalist, if you want to be competitive, if you want to have a really you know, future ready organization you invest in well-being.

Speaker 3: 4:55

I love to hear you say that, because I think back to the days where, when work-life balance was the thing and people were like who needs that? Like it's a badge of honor to just drive yourself into the ground, but it's bad for business, right?

Speaker 2: 5:09

It is bad for business and I wrote this article for Harvard Business Review that I think it went viral because people felt really connected to this idea of toxic productivity and the title was let's End Toxic Productivity. There is this heroic attitude towards people that don't sleep and they don't eat and they don't even take time to go pee, they just work all the time. It's like they're the high performing people and that's just because they feel like that's what they have to do to be able to be promoted. It's not anyone's real desire, but it's become something we celebrate and we need to get better at. Looking at rest is not a four letter word that. It is actually good for all of us and it makes us more productive and leads to lots of good business outcomes.

Speaker 3: 5:54

Listen, I am all for bringing back the afternoon nap. Anyone a fan from kindergarten? I feel like that was a good refresher, so let's build that in. You write that work is fundamentally broken. How did we get here?

Speaker 2: 6:11

This is a long time coming. You know, the office is 550 years old. We have sort of behaved in the same way, around that same framework. I mean we went from seven days a week to six to five, so now we're in the five zone, which has been the last hundred years. But you know, nothing's really changed about work and going into the office and it being very transactional.

Speaker 2: 6:34

But I say, since the advent of the car phone, where we were able to move our work into the new office which was our car, that changed work from a transactional relationship to a social contract. You're asking us to bring work into our home, into our personal life. You know that really breaks the expectation, and so we've had this unwinding of what our expectation of work has been and also the demands on us to be working all the time with all these blurred lines. And there was a point in the pandemic which crises do? They exacerbate all those existing problems that were there, that were boiling and exploded them, and so in the last five years it's like we went from breaking to broken and now we have to figure out a new framework for work.

Speaker 3: 7:28

Well, throughout the book, you really explored why so many of us are feeling unfulfilled at work. Do you think this is a modern problem, or is this something we've always struggled with?

Speaker 2: 7:41

When you look at Gallup's engagement data, it sort of stayed the same. We are at the worst level of active disengagement levels that we've seen in a decade, so it's extraordinarily bad now. As far as how many people are actually happy at work, it always really has stayed in that. You know, globally around 13, 15 percent and in the it's 30-ish Canada same thing, but so there's really a huge swath of the workforce that hasn't really been happy at work. But what I believe is that we had a different expectation of it before and we knew part of it was going to be a grind and there was generations that felt like, okay, that's just part of work is that it's not going to always be enjoyable, and I'm okay with that. I have different expectations from a different identity and your identity about what you did was more important than, say, pay or work-life balance or some of those other things. So our frame of reference in the last five years has really changed, and so things like flexibility used to be a perk, now it's a right. We look at being able to not be sick at work. You know, like expecting not to be burned out. That has definitely become more of an expectation, and yet we're seeing higher levels of burnout than we ever have, even since peak pandemic. And you know, we're asking more of work and work is asking more of us, and so I think we're becoming more disconnected.

Speaker 2: 9:11

Each group is being more disconnected from the other, like this data point that I had in the book on the purpose gap. You see, 85% of executives really do see and they feel their purpose. They say they live their purpose every day, whereas only 15% of frontline managers and employees feel their purpose every day. We've lost the expectation of work and we have a new frame of reference. And also, when you're trusted with something like everyone was allowed to work remotely. We did really well with that. There was investments in well-being, which was really great. There was investments in DEI, which felt really good. Employees felt like, okay, here's the moment where we're going to turn the corner and there's going to be respect and there's going to be an understanding of our needs, there's going to be empathy and compassion. And then, five years later, and all of those things are being clawed back, it feels like. And then, five years later, and all of those things are being clawed back, it feels like, oh, now I don't feel as much hope.

Speaker 1: 10:38

And so I think that's been catastrophic to levels of engagement and happiness at work. Why are we here? It's such a well-researched book, it covers a ton of ground and I'm wondering if you can talk about the three key areas leaders really need to approach differently.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Key areas leaders really need to approach differently. How I ended up really thinking about this book is that I really do think it's a stacking kind of on, based on the first part, which are foundations, and then it's addressing the novel challenges, because it's a whole new framework. We're in the multiverse of work. We've skipped, you know, timeline. We're not even the future of work, so that's sort of in this business challenges that we have to face. And then the third part is you great data point a few days ago, which was amazing, that showed that the entire workforce is pretty much feeling the same way, that leaders that have hope are what they need right now. But it's really hope, purpose and community. So feeling a sense of mattering and feeling like you have friends.

Speaker 2: 11:39

You know that work isn't just like going to school without our gym or recess. There's actually like kibitzing, like you talk about, and fun and joy. And then there's novel challenges that we need to deal with. I talk about, from a sense of compassion, freedom and openness. And compassion is really how do I take my empathy into, and that act of listening into, action with AI, fear of becoming obsolete, this sense of I hear you but I'm not doing anything about it, and this is why we need compassion, you know. Then we have freedom.

Speaker 2: 12:11

The idea of flexibility is so focused on where, but how can we maybe think about it for the 60% of the non-remote enabled workforce, why and with whom, and what we do and when we do it? There's lots of ways that we can create flexibility for that group, and just freedom is such a fundamental part of who we are, and when that strips away, we will resist it to our death. I mean, it is baked into us, and so the way that people are tackling these return to office mandates are just terrible. And then you know openness is generational divides. We need to be listening to each just terrible. And then you know openness is generational divides. We need to be listening to each other more and belonging and recognition is really, how can we have a shared vision if we can't pull people together? We're going to have just a siloed vision and that, no, we know that doesn't work. So it's about pulling people together in a sense of belonging for all of us to work better together.

Speaker 1: 13:03

I think each of those stacks is so important, think each of those stacks is so important and each of those layers is so important. And we're not going to go through all the stacks on this episode, but we do want to double click into a few of them that just seem so critical and so anchoring. And I want to talk about hope first because, I will be honest, I read the Gallup research last week, read your book as well, and I was thinking. The first time I read I was like we've grown up professionally saying hope is not a strategy in the book. And now Gallup also validates it. It's actually scientifically proven to be a strategy and you can operationalize hope. I'm curious about hope. When we are wondering why we are here, hope is the answer. Why is that?

Speaker 2: 13:44

And it's amazing because I spent some time and you would have read the book where I talked to senior leaders in the military that say hope is their only strategy, and they say you know, think about it. You're sending people out on a mission that could risk their lives and if they don't feel hopeful, they are not going to even sign up for that. Sign up for that or they're not going to be able to achieve their mission because they don't see the point of it. They don't see that there's a potential for them to hit that goal. It's too risky, and so you extrapolate that across any organization. That's the same way about asking people to risk when it comes to ideas or innovation or, you know, being being psychologically safe.

Speaker 2: 14:26

All of those things are dependent on people feeling like that. What they do is actually going to come to some sort of fruition, or it's going to be helpful, or they can see themselves in the future of their organization. You don't have hope. You do not get anyone on board with AI, and this is why we see one in two of the global workforce now saying they have AI anxiety. Hope is super fundamental and I actually feel like it's the economic tool that we need if we're really looking at solving big policy problems. We're talking about women, and this whole fertility crisis is a big conversation we're having all the time, and so you see countries putting in a whole bunch of money for women at work four-day work week in Korea and these types of things but when you actually talk to women and families that are talking about why they're putting off having children, they say I don't see a world where I can bring a child into it is heavy and it's not financial incentives that we need to give people now.

Speaker 2: 15:36

It's hope. This is the economic driver that we all need across organizations, societally and globally, and until we really get to that upstream kind of thinking about it, we're still going to be in crisis in the next 20 years.

Speaker 1: 15:51

I want to double click on this because we talk to a lot of folks, especially at the middle management level, that are burnt out. They feel like they've been asked to do more. Just like you said. They're feeling that discrepancy between feeling purpose and being like what purpose you know. And so when you say hope is the strategy, and then we have middle managers that are feeling just how the hell am I supposed to have hope? What does hope look like for me as a middle manager? How do I show up with hope when I've got 55,000 things going on? How do you respond?

Speaker 2: 16:23

to that. So I love that you've asked me this, because hope is actually one of the easiest skills that we can build, and so much of the book is changing culture in 20 minutes or less. Like I've been saying, it's just these 20 minute meetings here, these incremental shifts over here. It's not a big value change. It's actually middle managers are the ones that are the most empowered to make these changes. And when you think about hope, it's really based on Snyder's hope theory and this is what I've talked about for many, many years.

Speaker 2: 16:51

It's this idea of having goals. So really focus in your team around setting goals and not five-year goals. But how do we set daily, weekly, monthly goals that lead up to that year, that lead up to that big career pathing five years? And then the second part is having pathways. So you're planning your goals, but do you have a plan B? Do you have a plan C? Do you have a plan Z? Having secondary and tertiary plans around your goals makes you feel like that one goal, if I don't hit it this way, I have all this other backup. I've had all this other planning to hit that goal. And then it's about agency. We need autonomy in hitting those goals.

Speaker 2: 17:34

Google does a great job co-creating goals, talking with peers. Peers celebrate. It's fluid, it's just challenging enough that you feel like you've accomplished something, but not so challenging that you could never accomplish it, and not too easy that you feel like, oh well, that was easy. So you don't feel that sense of accomplishment when you reach it. All of this builds up cognitive hope day to day.

Speaker 2: 17:57

And you know, lululemon is really good I was their happiness strategy strategist way back and they do a good job of having these BHAGs, these big, hairy, audacious goals. But then they also have they celebrate the small wins. So that weekly goal or the monthly goal, the manager can be like, yeah, like sticker, you know, like here's a gift card at the end of you know you achieving this two month goal or this quarterly goal, like these are the things that we, we need to help people do, because subconsciously it builds up our hope capacity or cognitive hope, and the more hope we feel, the more we feel like we can accomplish bigger goals. And then the more risk-taking we are, the more innovative we are, the more cohesive we are with the rest of our team because we're you know, we're working, we're gelling together in a really helpful kind of way it just breeds such a good social contagion of hope across the culture.

Speaker 1: 18:49

Yeah, I love that. I know you've talked about it in some of your past books too. But that idea of chunking things out for your folks and it doesn't need to be the beehives we all love the beehives and the moonshots and it's all sexy, sexy but sometimes it just comes down to those small wins until you get the bigger wins and chunking it for your folks. Oh, I talk about purpose too, because we talked about hope and then you pull up into purpose right, that's that second element of that strong foundation that you talk about when it feels like your org is on the fourth reorg and you actually don't know where the hell it's going. But you're leading a team and you're like, all right, here's our purpose. Like, how do you do that in that 20 minute sprint?

Speaker 2: 19:31

This is a really key, I think, when you ask me of, like, what are the things that we get wrong about leadership and culture? Sorry, this is another place where we fall short a lot of, and it's because of the purpose gap. A lot of the people in that executive role feel very connected to the big mission statement. They feel it like they're in it. But most of the workforce doesn't really care about the big mission statement. They're not thinking about the vision every day, they're really in the work and sometimes that work can feel very monotonous, really boring, and so you want to stop trying to make it so far away from people. You want to tie the day-to-day work into things that people care about, and you do this in this way. That's very practical and I've watched this intervention and tried it across organizations and it's been incredible. But it's 20 minutes of a non-work-related check-in where you ask what lit you up, what stressed you out and what can we do for each other to make next week easier. So the lighting up piece managers are able to kind of get clues into what excites people. You know, what do you care about? Does it really matter that your kids are in a good school? Do you care about watching Broadway films. You have a passion for going to New York once a year and seeing all the Broadway films. I mean, these are things where it should seem innocuous but it's actually. It's really great data.

Speaker 2: 20:51

This is where you're like how do I motivate people and connect their day-to-day tasks to that thing? You know, and if and then when you look, you know at the stress stressors. People aren't going to say what they're stressed out about to their boss in day, week one or week two Absolutely not. You're putting on the front. You know it takes months actually, but that consistency and frequency and managers showing up every week saying I'm still going to ask and I'm still going to share my stressors, that vulnerability and leadership opens up psychological safety amongst the team.

Speaker 2: 21:24

So people then start sharing, like what is going on, and if you create an open space, people will tell you this is what I need, this is what's holding me back from connecting to my purpose or doing what makes me feel good every day. And so over time, consistency and frequency builds trust and then you get to use this and then the quick win piece is the hope building. So every single week you're helping each other cohesively in this team building thing like helping each other to solve problems, and so work gets easier, gets more fun, it's less toxic, it's also less exhausting and you can help each other. You learn these small ways that you can tactically help each other with workload and so overall, you start to feel like your work has more meaning, it matters more. You feel more aligned with your motivators and your purpose to the day-to-day tasks and it changes so much of how people feel about their work and how it contributes and makes an impact.

Speaker 1: 22:25

I love that too, because at the end of the day sometimes I think about if you distill down what everybody just really basically needs at a human level. It's just to be seen.

Speaker 1: 22:36

Or for someone to be interested, genuinely, like what does light you up? Or what are you about, you and me together, human to human. It's like simple, elegant questioning that really helps you, as a manager, understand and get the data to your point, but also enable someone to feel seen. We've all had leaders where we felt that potentially, hopefully you have, and you have had leaders where they don't give a shit. You know what I'm saying. They don't care. Yeah, they don't care, and you're kind of dying for them to ask or just be interested, like do you even know me?

Speaker 1: 23:06

I had a leader one time asking me how my kids are doing, after I'd worked with them for four months. I have a kid, I don't have two, and it was you know. It's like those moments where it's like you're not even in this. This is so transactional for you. I love that on the one-on-one. And the other thing I want to ask about you talk about the importance of friendships at work. Mel and I actually fun fact we're work friends and then we started this podcast and so we know the value of work friendships. But I'm wondering how organizations can facilitate community more like the idea of the true community.

Speaker 2: 23:39

This has always been something that I've been so interested in is this community piece, because going to work and not having that person a person, just a single person there, that's all you need. But people that don't have that. It's just a very miserable experience for them and I wrote about that in the burnout epidemic like a toxic, unhappy group of people that you work with can actually reduce your lifespan, like that's how detrimental it is on your mental health and well-being. So you need to have that person or else work just does, just feels really lonely. And what's happened in the last five years? And everyone wants to blame it on remote work. But I don't think that that's the case and I've shared really the data to say it's not remote work that has impacted relationships. We've been dealing with lowliness at work for a long time but it's that we have organizations that just focus on simplex relationships which are transactional, like you said. It's that I need you for this. It's basically a shared services and that's how you interact. But organizations that really focus on building multiplex relationships where it's. I know you and I know that you have a kid, not two kids or three kids, and I know that this is where that non-work related checking comes in handy because it's about developing more robust relationships that create bonds.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Five years, especially with these return to office mandates when people go back into the office, it's not like they're spending more time doing what we should be doing, which is collaborating and connecting with each other and bringing back rituals.

Speaker 2: 25:16

You know, I love that Atlassian has the hackathon every quarter, and there's companies that do a really good job of pulling people together to do cool stuff and they build relationships.

Speaker 2: 25:27

We've lost a lot of investment in team building and networking and a lot of that social piece, that social binding, is gone, and so right now, the way that we've developed friends would be different than you and Mel, which would be organic. It used to be like you'd walk in the office and maybe you were friends with someone in marketing, maybe you talked to someone in accounting. You'd have ways of having conversations with lots of different people. We've continued to hear in the data is that it's very siloed now, so we only care about our team. We don't know anything going on across the rest of the organization and the thing that I used to look for which was compatibility and you know if you made me laugh or we were both interested in cool movies. Now we're looking for conscientiousness and accountability. Those are the traits we're looking for in our friendships, which is very, it's very the ones to go dancing on Friday night with their accountable, conscientious friend Like no line.

Speaker 1: 26:27

So that didn't even accumulate with our country.

Speaker 2: 26:30

I guess that sounds fun.

Speaker 2: 26:32

That's it. We're only looking to have relationships at work that will continue to foster better work and to me, like that is the thing that we need to rework is bringing people back into spaces where, like I was talking in the book about the third space making it like Starbucks, where you're going there to debate and discuss and be connected and then you go home or wherever, to your own little world to do the heads down stuff. But right now, going into work is just like a replica of working from home and that's not building any sort of friendship or community that anyone really cares about.

Speaker 1: 27:12

It's interesting, though. I mean companies could totally reimagine those spaces to be more communal or like office, as an amenity to foster that organic relationship building or get back to it.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, and we're so time starved and we're so burned out that our social tank is really, you know, has been depleted and so again, it's like hygiene. We need to, we need to manage overwork, we need to create space for people to actually connect. You know, in the again, the 20 minutes or less. Cornell research in the book said 20 minutes of having lunch with one person once a week completely changed the dynamic of organizations. They found that morale was improved, job satisfaction increased, people made less mistakes, which I thought was really interesting. Their work performance improved. And that was 20 minutes of just having lunch away from your desk once a week. It's super simple again, but these are the things that create incremental network effect, that we're all kind of doing some of these pieces of the puzzle. Eventually the culture will flourish would be.

Speaker 1: 28:29

I would have the 20 minutes, the lunch away from my desk more, but I would invite someone from an accounting or the gallon marketing or whatever just to network more earlier on and just go to lunch with people more. I wish I would have done that. It's so nourishing.

Speaker 3: 28:38

It's so special. I worked in a big law firm when I first started out in New York and we did have that. We had a lunch crew and they had a cafeteria, but everyone knew everyone. It was a mixture of administrative staff. Paralegals, even like the lunch staff crew, would come in and eat with us and it was one massive table. There were 25 of us every single day. That's what we looked forward to and we talked about everything but work and it just made our week, but it made work better. And to this day, and it just made our week, but it made work better. And to this day, even though that firm's long gone they merged with someone else, the building's been taken over, but there's a Facebook group of alumni from that workplace down from everyone to security, to all that crew, because that's how close we were. It was like a very special environment which you don't see anymore.

Speaker 2: 29:24

Really, I love that, Mel. I love that because in the book I shared a case study of this person I interviewed at a tech company and he met with a lot of his coworkers and people in the building for lunch. They were pulled back on a project that ended up making them having to work all these long hours and slowly but surely they abandoned their lunch and he said that his team started dropping out and moving to competitors, and even in the exit interviews for me it just felt like we stopped having lunch, we stopped caring about each other. It's more than that. It's more to a lot of people, and he ended up after six years being on a track to be in a high position in that organization, left to a competitor and he initiated the lunches in the in his other place and it became this whole popular thing again.

Speaker 2: 30:12

It's so much more than people realize it's. It's the pausing, it's the connecting, it's the not talking about work, it's developing these depths of bonds that sustain and and we're not investing in that anymore because we're thinking 20 minutes, oh well, that means I have to leave 20 minutes late, I'm going to be stuck in traffic. It just means more work. When I come home at night I'll be in my pajamas working till midnight. When you're burned out, when you have that kind of toxic productivity, you don't engage in 20 minute lunches.

Speaker 3: 30:43

Now, I also am a fan of in virtual environments, because I do think you could do this in a virtual environment, like having a fun weekly debate on something random like is a hot dog a sandwich? Put it up on. Teams for everyone to contribute to the conversation, right, like how do you get what's a weekly question? But like, get creative, what can you do to engage everybody across the org?

Speaker 2: 31:04

Yeah, Is pot fruit considered to be acceptable on a pizza? Yes, no, it is a good question. Yeah, you have lots of debate, but I do think it needs to be levity, you know, and about all of the new challenges, and boy do we have them.

Speaker 3: 31:47

Ai, multi-generational workforce I think we just read something recently about Gen Z doesn't even want what we have, so there's a whole problem there. The backlash on DEI, the backlash on remote work, extensive burnout as you write about. Employee happiness is just continuing to drop. When you think about all of these new challenges, what's the one thing workplaces need to focus on now to overcome the competition against all of these things when they're trying to create a good culture?

Speaker 2: 32:19

One of the things I keep telling leaders that I work with is why do you feel, like, five years into this complete cataclysmic shift in work, that you're supposed to have it figured out? I mean, no one even knows what hybrid is Like. Why is it two or three days a week? We don't even know. Hybrid could be four times a year. Hybrid could mean lots of different things, and there is this kind of ego, I think, around us needing to have this thing sorted and wanting to just put the pandemic and now poly crisis on some sort of back burner and not think about it. And so I've been saying the one thing that leaders need to do is just let go of all of that sort of that expectation and recognize with self-awareness that we are in a completely different mindset.

Speaker 2: 33:07

Behavioral, you know, the behavioral mindset of this workforce today is clearly different. The priorities have shifted. We have Gen Zs that do see us as terrible models for what work looks like. You know most of us burning out, all of us resigning, saying we hate work, we're not great models, and so of course they're going to say I don't want that and they're going to find new avenues.

Speaker 2: 33:30

We're losing our mature workers. They're retiring early at a pace that we've never seen before, and they say I don't really fit into this workforce, it's changed. So let's get on top of that and say, okay, let's be agile, let's iterate, let's test, let's see if this works and if it doesn't, that's okay. We're going to be just much more fluid in the way that we build our strategies until we feel like, over time, I feel like we're in the pilot stage of this experiment that you know, when you look at 550 years old for the office, we're looking at a pretty long time before we're going to get any of this kind of mapped out. So for me it's about self awareness, agility and pausing and kind of coming up with a new plan.

Speaker 3: 34:21

Yeah, well, it's also like will we really ever have this all mapped out? Or is this just start being okay with the unknown and working together to be like I don't know either, and we'll figure it out together?

Speaker 2: 34:49

I love that you say that, because even five-year strategies right now, when we have Gen AI and what's changed we have to imagine that that's going to be five years where the things that we thought were going to happen have been totally changed around, and so that is really. It is understanding that we're in a state of uncertainty and will be for quite some time now. That's why, if you really want to be successful, it is managing through change and learning how to do that much better. Unfortunately, we just see a demographic of CEOs. Most of them are male, most of them are in their 60s, and it's been very difficult. We've seen just that like trying to shift over into especially what Gen Zs are asking for. That feels so foreign, it feels so far away from the way that they were professionally raised. So I have empathy for both groups, but we do need to connect somewhere, because having divisions, that and us being that far apart in our goals, there's no way we can hit those plans, that vision, if we don't start talking to each other.

Speaker 3: 35:45

Yeah, if we can't find common ground, it is moving to a danger zone. I think last week Francesca and I were, we were covering new week new headlines and we read something around how it was like 73 percent of Gen Z's that were polled Don't quote me on this, because I think it was somewhere around there where they were mentioning they don't even want the job. Like we're heading for a manager meltdown this year, in fact, because they can't find common ground and what they see is what they don't want. But, as you mentioned, it's deeply affecting the future of organizations and business. So what are your thoughts on that? Like, how can we start to find common ground?

Speaker 2: 36:24

I say first across the organization. Even managers can do this. How often do you express frustration with an entire generation and how often do we have conversations like oh, I'm so frustrated like my boomer, my Xer, whatever bandager, usually Xers are boomers. Everyone's a boomer if they're over the age of like 45. So it's like how does my Xer.

Speaker 1: 36:50

I don't appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 36:51

That I do not appreciate being I don't like being lumped in there but, I'm here but to get everyone on to say I'm a boomer, so it's like anyone over a certain age. It's kind of like this exasperation. And yet then we see this rise of youngism. We've never seen it this harsh before, where young people are coming into the office and it's basically like they're already defied as lazy. And if they do ask for things like respectful hours so that they can have friends, I mean they're just trying to meet people and develop relationships that might be long lasting, so they can have family and plan their lives. But if you're working 60 or 70 hours a week, it's just not appropriate for anything else in your life. The fact that they're asking for this with this perception that they're just lazy, it seems like what they're asking for is just so, gen Z, that puts people off. They're opting out of the workforce. Because of it. They're willing to accept an extraordinarily less amount of pay. All the data showing it's up to 37 percent less pay to have work life balance. So for them they're not like Xers and boomers were where it was by the house get married, have kids, so you have all these golden handcuffs tying you to your job. They're putting off buying homes later because of financial the situation that they're in. They just don't have that. They're living longer with their parents, they're not getting married, they're not having kids, so their ability to be mobile and take less pay makes it so we're not holding onto them, and with the same carrot. And that means having to be flexible.

Speaker 2: 38:28

And so I keep telling managers just like audit your language, audit the narratives that go on in your organization. Try to remove those things that really do separate you. Auditing your language really changes how you feel about another group, and I should also say the youngest generation. Their whole point is to push back on the status quo, like that's what you expect. Every generation does that. Why are we surprised that this generation is pushing back on the status quo, like that's what you expect. Every generation does that. Why are we surprised that this generation is pushing back on the status quo Like this is their job, this is every generation's job is to question whether the generation before them have done the right job. You know, societally and politically and economically, and every generation's done that. So here we have another generation that's just coming in to tell us we're doing a bad job. That's the way it goes.

Speaker 3: 39:20

I feel like Gen Z's role is actually to remind us that we're all human beings in here for a finite amount of time, so maybe we should all stop prioritizing work as the number one priority.

Speaker 2: 39:31

I love it. I say Gen Z's say well-being is not antithetical to work ethic. They say that loud and clear and I fully agree with that. So it's probably why I have maybe my bias to say let's listen to Gen Zs because you know, maybe they're pushing the pendulum really far in one direction, but that's the only way that we're going to have change, that sort of meets in the middle. So let's let them do that and then figure out a way that sort of marries all worlds.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Couldn't agree more. Another big topic is AI, and you talk about the fear of becoming obsolete. So how can leaders navigate all of what's happening in AI today and really kind of squash the FOBO that's happening for their teams?

Speaker 2: 40:19

So I love the term FOBO. I mean Gallup really stripped it with that one. You know I love JOMO the joy of missing out. That's one of my favorite. Fobo is a good one too.

Speaker 2: 40:29

The data is showing that it's really increasing, and it's increasing a lot for younger cohorts. It used to be automation, so mature workers were ones that were most threat. You saw that obsolescence really coming out in that group. But our younger generation are feeling it, and a lot of that is that we've got again like hyperbolic language. We're in a mass extinction event I robot and everything's going to fall apart, or it's 300 million jobs are going to be lost, or or then it's everything's rosy with AI. Everything's going to be great. You know we're going to, they're going to be our pilot and you won't have to work again, and I don't like the idea of people not wanting to work or not working again. A, that's an economic catastrophe, because how are we going to care for everyone not working? And B, just from a human standpoint, we get a lot of fuel from work, and so what?

Speaker 2: 41:22

I have this LinkedIn course that I basically took that chapter of FOBO and brought that in to say how do we create AI enthusiasm instead of AI anxiety, because it's here and that's the reality and so we need to normalize it. We need to talk about how ubiquitous AI is in the rest of our lives so it isn't so scary. We need to make sure that people feel skilled up and not overlooking mature workers, because we're seeing that they're getting constantly overlooked for training in AI. It's kind of like both of them are giving up and yet pretty robust research looked at mature workers and said and there was 40% of them that said I would stay longer if I had this continued training, if I felt like you were training me up to handle this, but I'm overlooked constantly. So there's things that we need to do around training and just preparedness. We also want to create curious cultures.

Speaker 2: 42:18

Have a once a month meeting around some new experimentation that you had with AI. You share it back with the team. It can be personal or professional. You can have some personal, some professional so you can talk about oh, I did this trick and I used AI and now I've been able to do my work faster. It's been great.

Speaker 2: 42:34

So that's really important is create experimentation, and I would say the most important part and this is probably at the executive leadership level is we need to deliver on the promise of AI. So the promise of AI was that you will have your mundane tasks taken away and then you will have really creative, cool work that you get to do. A lot of people that I've interviewed are saying I had the mundane stuff taken away, but now I have extreme boredom and I'm not getting any of that. So there's a promise undelivered. And then also Gen AI is supposed to save us time, so if we're finished our project early, we should be given that time back.

Speaker 2: 43:14

It shouldn't be that we're just adding more productivity when it's supposed to create efficiencies. So these are two things at the policy level that I think executive leaders need to say. Are we delivering on the promise of AI in these two areas? And maybe it's changing the way we measure productivity. It's more around goals, not hours, and so that's at the GDP level that we need to be looking at that. But just even in organizations, we can change policies to make the promise of AI feel like it's worth investing in for employees.

Speaker 1: 43:48

I'm wondering if most organizations even have mapped out what the promise of AI was to their employees, because they're very focused on stakeholders shareholders but not viewing their employees as stakeholders and or saying this is what AI can do for you. Like, I don't feel like a lot of organizations have explicitly said that or put that in their EBP as either it's a major problem.

Speaker 2: 44:13

A major problem. The Microsoft Trends report that came out in collaboration with LinkedIn found that 60% of CEOs don't believe that there's a strategy, and so this is what happened, and there was this really interesting report, too, that showed that technology wasn't even on the radar of sort of business disruptions up until the last two years, and it went from not even being on the top set of stressors that CEOs were feeling to sixth place and then in a year to first place. This last year was like first place biggest disruptors to business, and so everyone's really just adopted AI. Because I need to adopt AI, I need to show that I'm competitive, but with no. I need to show that I'm competitive but with no strategy, and you need to know your why before you adopt AI. Know your why before you adopt AI, so then you can then communicate that, and that lends to managers being able to communicate the why. I'm curious about what organizations or are there?

Speaker 1: 45:17

organizations that are getting this right. I'm curious about what organizations, or are there organizations that are getting this right?

Speaker 2: 45:33

Yeah, there are. There's just so much right now that I'm seeing that are, you know, are making it difficult for people to stay on track with some of that investment. I talked about Bain and Company in the book. I mean they're doing things like even just cold rooms for women that have menopause, for example. It seems again so simple, like just having spaces that you can work in that are cooler.

Speaker 2: 45:58

But for me as a perimenopausal 47-year-old, I had the worst brain fog in writing this last book in the first six months and I actually felt like I'm not supposed to be a writer anymore. The amount of questioning of my capacity and my efficacy was really wild. And then it was going to my doctor and she was able to just say I think you're going through perimenopause, and that was such a weight lifted. I really did feel like I was not good at my job anymore and I think of women at this age peak career my job anymore, and I think of women at this age peak career feeling ineffective. And so there are organizations that are saying we can't have that. We need to do things that are more responsible for women.

Speaker 2: 46:44

We still are seeing, which I feel is like these big declines in keeping women in the workforce. We're at the thinnest executive pipeline that we've seen yet in history. For the first time in a decade, global CEOs of women have gone down, and it was already like a shit number in the first place. I think it was 11 and a half percent. Now it's 10 and a half percent yeah, celebrating incremental gains.

Speaker 2: 47:08

I'm very over that, and so I think work isn't working for women. We need diverse thinking. We've demonstrated in Anita Williams Woolley's work at Google that collective intelligence increases when you have more female gender representation on teams. I want people to start looking at this as this is a business strategy, not a benevolent strategy. This is not to be benevolent. I'm not being an ally, I'm being a capitalist when I in my executive pipeline, and so the more we can look at it as a business imperative versus a benevolence imperative, the more we'll. I think we'll put that into the strategic priority set, and right now it just it's a lot about allyship and doing good and not seeing diversity in represented in leadership is actually being really good for business, and the more that we can change that narrative and talk about it in that way, the less it's something that can be cut out, and I do think that, and you would have read in the book that I do think the way we've done it so far hasn't been really successful.

Speaker 1: 48:14

What I've always tried to reconcile is the data, even though these programs haven't been around for that long. When you look at the history of work, I appreciate that, of how powerful your ROI is on inclusion, belonging women in leadership roles, diversity, happiness at work. I mean all of the things that you're talking about. Hope, purpose, right, the data is there, the return on investment is there, hard dollars, and you can make the monetary case for all of this and I'm wondering is it the narrative around? We need to start talking about hard dollars on this all the time, when we talk about this stuff to sell it more. What is this flip in the narrative? I can't figure it out you know what.

Speaker 2: 49:06

It's always going to be a bottom line issue and as we start to see a deficit in our talents resources and this is what I think Anita in the book that I love that she shared is just like we're wasting this incredible talent pool and no one seems to really care that it's slipping away.

Speaker 2: 49:28

And what I'm seeing is and I think it's actually, in a lot of ways, maybe beneficial to women is that women are saying I'm seeing is and I think it's actually, in a lot of ways, maybe beneficial to women is that women are saying I'm going to start to build up my own IP, I'm going to start up my own companies and, because they are so good at it, they're going to create their own space and they're going to start to demonstrate that they don't really need that other infrastructure.

Speaker 2: 49:50

And we're going to create this whole economy of women leading organizations and actually having patents and having opportunities for other women, because women will hire more women, because you hire like, and so, as that starts to break ground, which we are seeing, we're seeing so many more women move into part-time roles so that they can work on some of these other things. We are seeing like IP for women increase. We are seeing women opt out of workplaces that are not inclusive and moving to organizations that are, so they're demonstrating with their feet, and so the more that becomes something. That is a bottom line issue, which might take a while to show up maybe irrationally optimistic of me, but the data feels like it supports it, that that's what's going to start to happen and we're going to see this very different shift in this economy for women.

Speaker 3: 50:45

Well, it's funny, francesca and I just did a whole thing. I mean, women drive the global economy. We own almost all of the purchasing power globally and a recent article said if you, you know, if the economy is running well, you might want to start by thinking women today, and one of the stats that recently came out was, in 2023 alone, 49% of small businesses for the first time, more women than men are starting small businesses. So I think, yeah, I mean, the stats are showing they're leaving in droves because they're leaving places where they're not considered. They aren't.

Speaker 2: 51:21

And policies like return to office are actually extremely exclusive for women, and until we're solving the second shift and making sure that unpaid labor is balanced across both teams in the family, this is the only option for women. So those exclusive policies women are just like. That's not what I want. The core heart of the book is that we faced our mortality as a collective, and what happens to the brain when you face your mortality is you actually start to subconsciously reprioritize things that are about legacy leaving. It's more about what matters you know in the world, what matters to you as a human being, and so for women it was. They felt years of just having to take care of their family, protect them from such risk.

Speaker 2: 52:13

It was a very strong emotional experience for a lot of families and women in particular, and so now they're looking at it after they face their finitude. They're like this thing that I'm doing, that's toxic, that does not include me, that does not care about me. I don't really see that as something that in when a life is short mentality that I can accept anymore, and when you're not faced with that, you really don't see that there is something that's sort of like happening very quickly. You don't have the same urgency on it, but that experience and polycrisis has put urgency on us to leave legacies, put urgency on us to do more with our lives, and so for the people that are pro-social, for the people that care about the world and care about these things, they're looking at work as not something that matters as much, but they're still equally ambitious, and that's the thing that's cool about women. They're like how do I make work fit into my life instead of trying to fit into work's expectation of me, and I think that's like where it's going to be really cool.

Speaker 2: 53:17

I have gone back a few times to Riyadh. So Saudi Arabia has this real focus on 2030 women empowerment goals. So I also think other countries are going to go. Ok, we always looked at that country as being so far behind, it wasn't progressive, and they're putting this huge investment in women right now because they do understand it from an economic standpoint If one of the things that Saudi Arabia does understand is wealth and how to build wealth, and they are just looking at women as their builders of wealth right now.

Speaker 3: 54:02

All right, jennifer, we're going to move into a rapid round. This is not a pop quiz. It's meant to be fun and to get a little more versatile. To get to know you, we'll start with the work question. It's 2030. What do you think work's going to look like? This is such a great question.

Speaker 2: 54:20

It's going to look the same, but I do think that we're going to see incremental differences in a more pro-social way.

Speaker 1: 54:34

Okay, finish this sentence. For companies to build work cultures everyone wants. Leaders need to model the behavior.

Speaker 2: 54:42

Employees can't be what they can't see. Leaders need to model the behavior.

Speaker 1: 54:47

Next sentence Work should feel more like blank and less like blank.

Speaker 2: 54:53

More like fuel for you know your sense of accomplishment. Less like a grind Damn right.

Speaker 3: 55:03

Not it? What music are you listening to right now?

Speaker 2: 55:07

I'm super into Olivia Dean. I don't know if you've heard her, but she's so good and she has a song called Dive. I would highly recommend it. But she just became super well known because I guess she has a song on the Bridget Jones new movie, so people are learning about her. But she's great, okay.

Speaker 3: 55:30

Is Dive one of your favorite songs from her, or do you have a favorite that's like on repeat?

Speaker 2: 55:34

Well, Lola Young does the song Messy, which I really like, and she does a version of it which I love. But Dive, yeah, there's something about it that's sort of catchy and lovely, but a lot of her songs are like that and I really like Bakar B-A-K-A-R. If you just want to have a good vibes hang out in your car and feel like kind of like moving your shoulders, yeah, that's a good one.

Speaker 3: 55:58

Got to get some jams for my Trader Joe's parking lot. My bell Going on All right. What are you reading?

Speaker 2: 56:04

right now. Oh, so I like almost solely read fiction, which is hilarious as a nonfiction writer. But I'm reading Coco Meller's book. I don't know if you have heard of her. She's really good. It's oh God I just blanked on the book on the name it's Frankenstein and oh God, I can't remember. But it's really such a fun little book and she's got cool. I don't know really cool ways of thinking about characters. And I'm also reading James, which is this cool book that is. So I read multiple books at the same time and I'm always reading. I have a book with me, I carry it with me all the time, I read constantly Like I'm a super reader. And James is the idea of Reed telling the story of Huck Finn from Jim's point of view.

Speaker 3: 56:55

How fun it's really so far.

Speaker 2: 56:57

It's really neat. So one sort of beachy reads and then the other is like I got to have some meat in my brain, okay, okay.

Speaker 3: 57:06

Who do you personally really admire?

Speaker 2: 57:10

It's a really good question because there's lots of people that I really do admire, but you know, I would say my mom. So my mom was the first nurse practitioner in all of Canada and she's in the books, you know and she didn't ever talk about her stuff because she was a nurse and a nurse practitioner and so you kind of would come home. She had told me later on in life that she would come home and she had, like, had to deal with really traumatic, awful things, especially in a lot of car accidents in rural towns where she lived. And even when we moved, you know, to Canada, like to Eastern Canada, what happened was just like this sense of, I don't know, having to come home and be a good mom and also have to deal with all this stuff. And when she moved, she had to give up being a nurse practitioner because there did not exist in Ontario. So she was like, ok, well then I'll figure something else out.

Speaker 2: 58:09

She was very resilient, so she ended up teaching nursing at McMaster University, which was huge, and then working in ICU at McMaster University McMaster Hospital, which one of like it's a sick kids hospital, so they do just great work and then she decided that she wanted to stop nursing and started her own manufacturing company and sold quilts and had like multiple stores and a whole bunch of sewers working for her as like the final stage in her life. And I just feel, like you know, as a person that we never thought was the entrepreneur, I realized she was and she just didn't just do things like in small ways, she just did things in big ways, but she was so quiet about it and it wasn't until later on that I went wow, like you have subconsciously been my person that I've admired, that I've tried to mirror my life after Okay, Last one what's one piece of advice you want everyone to have?

Speaker 2: 59:10

This has been hugely beneficial for me, because I didn't learn this until I burned out and it's. You can have anything, not everything, and it's always about a series of choices and we constantly want to have everything and you can have anything. You just need to choose in your priority structure what matters most and when. You have that really figured out in your priority structure what matters most and when you have that really figured out that anything feels like everything.

Speaker 3: 59:40

I love it, thank you, thanks for sharing with us.

Speaker 2: 59:42

Yeah, I love it. So easy to talk to you. Oh, it's pleasant. You have fun. Yes, it's great.

Speaker 3: 59:52

This episode was produced, edited and all things by us myself, Mel Plett and Francesca Ranieri. Our music is by Pink Zebra and if you loved this conversation and you want to contribute your thoughts with us, please do. You can visit us at yourworkfriends.com, but you can also join us over on LinkedIn. We have a LinkedIn community page and we have the TikToks and Instagrams. So please join us in the socials and if you like this and you've benefited from this episode and you think someone else can benefit from this episode, please rate and subscribe. We'd really appreciate it. That helps keep us going. Take care, friends. Bye, friends.

Jobs, Politics & Policy at Work

Your Work Friends Podcast: Jobs, Politics & Policy at Work with Ryan Stygar & Harrison Newman

Elections shape work…

A second Trump administration could bring major changes to your workplace—whether you're an employee, a leader, or in HR. From labor rights and healthcare to immigration, DEI, and workplace safety—this episode dives into how political policy directly impacts your day-to-day work experience. No spin. Just straight talk on what’s potentially coming, and what to start paying attention to now.

Listen or watch the full episode here

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Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, I think we're live.

Speaker 2: 0:02

Yeah, yeah, Okay. Well, hey, we're here Welcome to your work friends and we're here to talk about jobs, politics and policy in the workplace and what you might expect with the new Trump administration coming in. I'm Mel Platt, I'm the co-host and co-founder of your work friends and owner of Cordelia Consulting, and with me is my partner in crime, Francesca Francesca.

Speaker 1: 0:28

Hey, I'm Francesca Ranieri, co-founder and co-host of your Work Friends pod with Mel, and I'm also the founder of Frank.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Yeah, yeah, and friends, we have been doing this work for a long, long ass time and what we want to do is connect you with the best experts.

Speaker 2: 0:47

With us tonight, we'll introduce those folks in a second to really break down all this work stuff to help you stay ahead, and that's our goal for tonight. With us is Ryan Steiger. He's an employment lawyer with Centurion trial attorneys in San Diego, California, but you also might know him as attorney Ryan on TikTok and Instagram, and he's also a former wildland firefighter, which he's incredibly proud of. We're incredibly proud of him too. And then with us is also Harrison Newman. He is the VP of HR benefits at Corporate Synergies in New York City. He's also the VP of communications for New York City SHRM and a budding harpist only for one night, from what we understand. So welcome to you both. Thank you both for being here and with us.

Speaker 2: 1:34

So here's the deal. We are going to be talking about five core topics around work policy, and those include labor and wage policies, healthcare and benefits, immigration, DEI and workplace safety all of the hot topics everyone's hearing about. We have about five minutes for those five topics each. We're also going to be making some bold predictions here along the way all speculative, of course, because we don't have crystal balls, but we're going to be ripping things from the headlines and making our best assumptions to help you think through things. Going to be ripping things from the headlines and making our best assumptions to help you think through things. If you are joining us live, please, please, please drop your questions in the chat. We will be monitoring them and we have some live Q&A at the end. But we're going to jump right in with a nice little question for you both.

Speaker 4: 2:18

How's that sound? Right on, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 2:20

Yeah, I actually want to do this for all of us, because I'm really curious. I know we all have a point of view on this. If you were to think about one word that would describe the workplace in 2025, what's your word? A single word, a single word, or what you're expecting?

Speaker 4: 2:37

what you're expecting. In a single word, I'm going to go with burnout.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 4: 2:42

Yeah, I hope it's not tired at this point. It's been going around quite a bit, but the general consensus I get from all the employees I represent, the people I talk to is people are tired, things are more expensive than they've ever been, wages are going up but they're not keeping up. And that creates a bit of a conflict, because your employer is sitting there saying my costs of business are going up and I'm paying you more than ever. The employees are saying, yeah, you're paying me more than ever, but it's really not a big increase, boss, and meanwhile my rent has gone up like 50% over the past eight years. It's getting rough out there and now, with what many anticipate will be fewer worker protections, not more, that burnout could turn into apathy. I certainly hope it doesn't, but burnout is my word of 2025 so far.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Yeah, good one Harrison.

Speaker 3: 3:32

I'm going to cheat a little bit. I'm going to use a word, but I'm going to give it a slightly different definition than typical. I'm going to use disruptive, but I'm not going to use disruptive in a bad way per se, because I don't know if disruptive is necessarily bad. I think you're going to see a lot of disruption in the workforce. I think you're going to see a lot of people wearing hats they've never worn before, because I think there's going to be a lot more responsibilities thrown on HR, thrown on executives navigating things in real time, because things might move very fast, because it might be one morning this is the cool thing and the next morning some other idea comes up and everything changes, and I think we're going to see a lot of disruption. Um, but I'm not going to use disruption as a negative term, because sometimes disruption leads to good things. Sometimes you need to burn something and I should not be using that word right now with everything going on but sometimes you need to burn something down to build something else new, and I think that disruption is really the word, but I'm going to tweak it a little bit and disruption which could be positive disruption, yeah all right, can I change my answer to seesaw because now that I'm thinking about it and it's pertinent to some of the things we're going to talk

Speaker 4: 4:38

about um anyone following nlrb guidance, eeoc guidance, dol guidance we're going to talk about that in detail. Everything that Biden just undid is going to be undid again because we're dealing with a Trump sandwich. The problem is, the Trump we're getting this time is a little different than the Trump we got last time. He has new people in his ear with new ideas, and a lot of those people are mortal enemies with conflicting ideas. So I think we are going to see disruption is a great term, but I think, seesaw, we'll see press conferences where he boldly declares one policy and then the next day something totally different comes out.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Ryan, my word was whiplash for the exact same reason.

Speaker 3: 5:21

Oh, there we go.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Yeah, Mel, before we, before we.

Speaker 2: 5:25

I actually was going to pull from our good friend, uh, Ashley Goodall and say blender. I feel like we're all going into the blender. It's just going to feel like we're in a constant blender. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:37

I uh, I had a lot of people say you know, francesca, get yourself centered, get yourself grounded, get your chakras out. This year You're going to need it. It's going to be a lot of change. We all know that. What that change will be, hey, you know, we're not sure, but one of the reasons why we're here is to think about what could happen and what we're already seeing. Let's get into it with our first topic, which is around like labor and wage policies, and, ryan, I'm going to take this over to you first. What are you thinking, again, when we think about labor policies, wage policies, things like overtime have been talked about, all this good jazz. What's 2025 going to look like?

Speaker 4: 6:15

Well, we're going to see a massive shakeup in the beginning, and that's not unusual for when we have a new administration come in. But I want to dispel any myths that Trump is at all a normal candidate. He is not a normal presidential candidate. We're going to see big changes. We're going to see him fast. So the agencies I'm looking at the most are the National Labor Relations Board, the EEOC, the DOL, of course, and OSHA. So the first thing we're going to see is a complete change in leadership. It's going to start with the National Labor Relations Board's general counsel, jennifer Abruzzo.

Speaker 4: 6:51

Now what we've seen in the past four years is the NLRB greatly expanding their interpretation of the National Labor Relations Act. We saw things like a ban on captive audience meetings. That's where the employer requires you to come into some kind of hallway and they explain their position on unionization. Thanks to the NLRB's most recent ruling on those captive audience meetings, employers can't do that anymore. They can have meetings about their views on unionization, but they can't track attendance. They can't punish you if you don't go. It has to be voluntary, but all the people advancing that expansion are going to be fired and we're going to see a new general counsel. We're probably going to see a Republican majority because on December 11th, the Congress did not extend the terms to 2026 like we had thought they would, so we're going to get a Republican majority in the NLRB. We're going to get a Republican majority in the EEOC.

Speaker 4: 7:53

And what's interesting about the EEOC, particularly and I know we don't have a lot of time so I'll wrap this up quick what we saw in 2020 was something really groundbreaking. What we saw in 2020 was something really groundbreaking. We saw LGBTQ status, gender expression, gender identity being protected. For the longest time. It was actually legal to fire someone because they identified as trans in some states, but the EEOC reinterpreted that. Well, not the EEOC, I'm sorry. The EEOC issued guidance after the Supreme Court's ruling in Bostock v Clayton County, georgia. The thing is the most likely person to chair the EEOC. Now she let me pull up her name again it's Andrea. Do you guys know who I'm talking about?

Speaker 1: 8:41

I do not.

Speaker 4: 8:43

I'm blanking on her name for a minute.

Speaker 1: 8:45

But that Andrea Andrea thing, that's always a, that's a tricky.

Speaker 4: 8:50

Yeah, well, anyway, here I'll pull up her name in a minute. I'm blanking on her name for no reason at all, but basically what's going to happen is she has expressed a serious dissent with the EEOC's interpretation of Bostock v Clayton County, georgia. So we are going to see a retraction, a restriction, a neutering of protections for LGBTQ employees. The reason we're going to see a retraction and not just a cessation on progress is because she has Andrea I can't remember her last name has expressed many times that she feels Clayton County, georgia that decision was a mistake. She feels that LGBTQ quote unquote special interests are an attack on women's rights and an attack on religious freedoms. We can debate whether we think that's true or not, but what's not up for debate is the EEOC is going to greatly restrict its expansion of those LGBTQ protections. We also may see some restrictions on the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act and how the EEOC interprets that.

Speaker 1: 9:50

Harrison, what would you add?

Speaker 3: 9:52

Just going back to the LGBTQ, I think you're going to see a lot in.

Speaker 3: 9:56

So MySpace obviously is in the benefits side, but I think you're really going to see a huge change or shift in DEI initiatives and we're going to talk about that a little bit later on probably, but we're going to see a major shift in and I hate the word wool culture, but I think a lot of the election was based on that.

Speaker 3: 10:11

I think that's really going to impact the workforce in general because I think people who feel a certain way might feel empowered by the results to act on that more. So I think it's going to be the role of businesses to balance that out and see so a little bit, because some of the C-suite who might've felt a certain way but acted differently because the culture and the trend was going one way, the results of the election, the way the election was run, might empower those same people to start shifting work environment and the culture inside of works. I think it's going to be important that the people inside of the businesses HR specifically, but everybody there to help navigate that culture and make sure there's still an inclusive culture inside of the workforce.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm wondering just to go back specifically, really quickly before we go on to our next topic around labor and wage we got a lot of questions around overtime and Mel and I did an episode on Project 2025, trying to interpret that largely thought of as the Republican platform right right around some of these things. Are you all seeing anything around overtime at all in terms of it retracting overtime or going to that like four-week look?

Speaker 4: 11:18

I think it's possible, though remotely like not really likely, remotely likely, leaning towards unlikely that we'll see a change to those overtime rules. If anything, we would see something like the Project 2025 80 hour rule rather than the 40 hour rule. There was some discussion about that, but I really don't think it's likely. I think it's right up there with no tax on overtime and no tax on tips. I think Mr Trump was just saying what he thinks his base wanted to hear. Most of his efforts it's this. It's, on one hand, look, no tax on overtime. I'm going to new rules at the DOL. He's going to throw out most of the inclusivity efforts at the EEOC. So really, what we're going to see is a major change of leadership and then the people in those leadership positions are going to make small changes over time. Something sweeping with the overtime. I really don't think is likely.

Speaker 3: 12:25

Yeah, I think we might see multiple changes in leadership. If this is anything like the first administration, the people in his ear right now might not be the same people in his ear six months from now. So I mean, once again, we talk about that whiplash, but if it's anything like the first time around the people in his ear, he sours on them very quickly and that can change. So what we see right now could be very different six months, one year, two years, for good or bad, but it could be very different as we go along.

Speaker 1: 12:50

Super fair, super fair Mel.

Speaker 2: 12:55

Yeah, we're going to talk about healthcare and benefits. So, harrison, I know like you love this topic very, very much. A lot of people stay in their jobs for healthcare and insurance. I can argue until the cows come home. Those things should not be tied together, but they are. Let's talk about what you're seeing here. How could employer provided healthcare change?

Speaker 3: 13:18

So we don't know what's going to happen. For the most part, there's a lot of talks around the ACA and how the ACA is going to go away. As you go, attack the ACA. I don't see that happening. With everything else, he might change the name of the ACA. I mean the fact that it's referred to as Obamacare I'm sure bothers him. If it was like the Gulf of Mexico, maybe we'll change the name. But besides for that, I don't see the ACA going away because in the first administration they removed all the parts of contention. For the most part, everything that people really didn't like is already gone and in some capacity, the ACA is working. Will we explore different ideas, as he said during one of the debates, if somebody comes up with a better idea, will that happen? Possibly, but I don't really see that.

Speaker 3: 14:01

Where I see the workforce really changing is going back to what we talked about before is from a culture standpoint and balancing that culture and the results of the election. The culture I see people looking at more broad based benefits and more flexible benefits because we don't know what's coming up next. His actions indirectly the repeal of Grovy Way and companies have to pivot to have travel benefits, because if you lived in one of the states where abortion was illegal, you had to pay for employees to travel and stay elsewhere. There was a Supreme Court I don't know the exact ruling if it went through regarding gender reassignment surgeries in certain states being illegal. I think Tennessee was one of those. So you might see an expansion of those benefits and travel benefits to start covering other aspects. But I think the biggest change I look at benefits and you would talk about benefits being the reason people stay at a job. I look at benefits as one of the easiest tools that a company has to create a culture. It's one of the things you can build on and manage completely and if you're offering a benefits, the benefits is a culture of the organization. It speaks for the values of the organization and I think you're going to see that more because the outside values might be very different. There might be attack on LGBTQ rights, there might be attack on abortion rights, women's rights, and I think you're going to see an expansion of benefits, whether it's through lifestyle accounts that have very broad uses, potentially, where you could use it for multiple different things, through HSA accounts and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 15:29

I do think you're going to see companies look more towards their benefits package to build the culture that they want, because there are other regulations and other things coming down the pipe that might prevent them from doing that. So I don't think the ACA is going away a pipe that might prevent them from doing that. So I don't think the ACA is going away. I do think we will have an expansion on HSAs and these pre-tax benefits. Interestingly enough, I do think towards. One of the last things he did from the benefit standpoint was extend leave. So I do think we might see more leave management and paid leave, whether on a state level or federal level. But I think, overall, if you're looking for the global biggest change to the benefits, I think and it's been happening overall, but I think it's going to be more important now than before because of external sources it's going to be those broad benefits that help build a culture within the organization.

Speaker 2: 16:18

Yeah, Francesca and I were talking right before we started the live about that. It's like the employers who are going to be kind of winning in terms of the talent marketplace in a few years are those that create benefits packages that benefit their employees and really retain employees and attract new talent in their organization.

Speaker 4: 16:37

Yeah, that brings up some other interesting points too. I mean, as we discussed, my world is really more in the EEOC. By the way, our current share is Charlotte Burroughs, who's fantastic in my opinion, and, by the way, the person who I predict. This isn't certain. There's been no announcements. I predict it's Andrea Lucas is her last name. She's a Republican, she's the only Republican there right now and she'll probably be the new head of the EEOC, which could be problematic for anyone seeking things like gender-affirming care, protection from LGBTQ discrimination, the right to use a bathroom that they're comfortable with. Also, there's some other issues that come up.

Speaker 4: 17:16

Remember, the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act was passed in 2022. That instituted sweeping, pretty exciting guidance on how to protect pregnant women at work or women seeking fertility treatments. Those fertility treatments that were protected under EEOC guidance included things like fertility treatments and abortions. No way in hell is Andrea Lucas going to let that continue. She is going to either decline to enforce any actions under that guidance or issue new guidance is what I expect. So, unfortunately, what I think we're going to see is a patchwork.

Speaker 4: 17:54

They keep saying that they want to return all of these questions to the states, but I think anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows. The ultimate Republican agenda is a nationwide abortion ban, no exceptions, and we know that's where they're headed. So what we're going to see, at least in the short term, I think, is a patchwork where employees in California have more right to access things like IVF or an abortion, if you need it, than an employee in Florida. So we may see a tug of war with people wanting remote opportunities or relocation, but certainly we talk about access to employer-sponsored benefits, your employer's right to maybe deny certain benefits based on your fertility treatments. There may not be as much recourse as it as we'd hope to see. That's my current prediction. No, and it's going to be difficultourse as it as we'd hope to see. That's my current prediction.

Speaker 3: 18:43

No, and it's going to be difficult, as you mentioned, from the state level. You're going to have state by state and there are very few employers right now that are single state. Most of them have multiple states, so you're going to have different rules and regulations for each state. It's going to come on. It's going to add a lot more work to the HR departments and the finance departments, even because it's going to be state-by-state regulations. Having these culture benefits or these travel benefits. I mean we might get some good out of it. Look, we've got ICHRs, we've got the individual HRAs the first time around. He's shown a tendency to think outside the box when it comes to benefits. Maybe there'll be some changes in the prescription standpoint.

Speaker 3: 19:16

I'm optimistic. I don't know if I'm optimistic because there's a reason to be. I'm optimistic because you have to be optimistic, so there might be some good that comes out of it. But going back to my first word, I think it's going to be disruptive. I think you're going to have a lot more hats being worn by HR and finance having to navigate different rules on a state-by-state basis, because I don't think we'll have a federal ban. I don't think there's enough push for that right now. I don't think they want a federal ban 100%. They want the argument of a federal ban. I think they like having the conversation more than the actual doing of these things. But I do think, on a state by state basis, you're going to have states where these laws are going to be very. California and Texas are going to be very different when it comes to what's covered and not covered.

Speaker 4: 19:57

Forgive my ignorance.

Speaker 4: 19:59

Harrison and I did want to say Mel. When we talk about optimism, one thing to be optimistic about is Mr Trump has talked about concepts of a plan to repeal disastrous Obamacare. Let's not forget who he is. He is a performer first, and everything else second. He knows that his base hates Obama. Doesn't matter why they hate him, he just knows they hate Obama.

Speaker 4: 20:28

So if he says I'm going to destroy Obamacare and liberate all the poor people affected by Obamacare, most of those followers of his do not realize he's talking about the Affordable Care Act and a lot of those people have health benefits because of the Affordable Care Act and I would hope that any advisors advising Mr Trump would let him know hey, if you take away your voters' health care, that is going to be an immediate life change that they notice and it's going to be really hard to blame Democrats for that. So I think one of the things we can be optimistic about is ACA fundamentally is probably not going anywhere. It would be pretty self-destructive to attack it head-on. So many people's benefits may stay the same, although abortion and healthcare-related benefits may be harder to access. And I'm sorry about the jump. I have a dog who wants to go on a walk really bad and he's giving me little nips on my knee, and that's why I keep jumping around.

Speaker 2: 21:20

Turn the conversation.

Speaker 3: 21:24

What's that, mel? How do you ask a question, or yeah?

Speaker 2: 21:27

I guess I I wanted, I wanted to follow up on the abortion um ban because I'm curious when it comes and forgive my ignorance because I'm not very closely related, tied to this work. But, um, you know, I imagine, if there are regulations in place in a state-by-state basis, can employers be? Can employers be held accountable if someone receives an abortion? That's on their play role and what? What kind of legal implications might they face if they are providing access to resources for that service if it's like, illegal in their state?

Speaker 3: 21:59

So what's interesting is in Texas you have to offer benefits that cover. The employee has the right to choose whether their benefits cover or do not cover abortion. Now, whether you have abortion, whether abortion is so, I can opt out. If I feel abortions morally wrong, I can say I do not want abortion being covered under my policy. Where somebody else says I believe abortions right, I want abortion covered, it's the exact same benefits, except one covers, one doesn't. Even though in the state of Texas you can't get an abortion anyway. What that means is based on my policy, I can't go to a neighboring state where it is legal and do that.

Speaker 3: 22:35

So far and I'll leave the legal questions more to the attorney so far we haven't seen any litigation about allowing them to travel outside of the state. In theory, that would be against the Republican theory of state rules, because if a state wants to do it, you can't do that. Now, we all know people don't play nice in the sandbox and because something doesn't fit a narrative doesn't mean they won't go against it. I don't see them penalizing in that regards. But I do think that you're going to see an expansion of these travel benefits, which might cover more LGBTQ or what they call the woke benefits aspect and some of these things that might be banned in certain states and allowed in others. I think you might see very, very different benefits in different states across the board.

Speaker 2: 23:16

Ryan, what do you think?

Speaker 4: 23:18

Definitely. I was trying to find the Supreme Court case that sort of reaffirms this, but I'm just going to say it, you're going to take my word for it. We have a constitutional right to free interstate travel, ok, so one of the things we're finding is states really throwing up lots of restrictions around abortion for many reasons and some liability for the employer who offers a benefits package that theoretically covers some of those treatments and you take it out of state. That's an open question. I haven't seen any litigation on that, but we do see things like Texas's $10,000 abortion bounty hunter rule, which there actually was at least one successful prosecution under that law that we've seen so far. So what is going to happen?

Speaker 4: 24:06

Optimistically, I would say that a near total abortion ban and a total ban on employer benefits across state lines for fertility treatments may not happen, because we have a constitutional right to interstate travel and the whole point of that right is that Americans would, in theory, have the same fundamental rights in Tennessee as they do in Louisiana, as they do in Colorado. Now we know in practice, especially over the past 10 years, that's not really the case. Unfortunately, we have a pretty far right Supreme Court right now, and it's a Supreme Court that has demonstrated over and over again that they're not afraid to legislate from the bench. They're not afraid to take precedent and throw it out the window. They're not afraid to give a president criminal immunity. They're not afraid to overturn Roe v Wade. They don't really need a lot of justification to do it.

Speaker 4: 24:54

So why am I going on that rant? I think that what we will most likely see is attempts by the federal government, with their Republican majority almost everywhere, to do a total abortion ban. Any way they can do it, and they might first attack things like employer benefits, maybe trying to hold the employer accountable, deny them certain federal funding, deny them certain benefits or taxes, or fine them or sue them if they offer any kind of fertility treatment or anything like that. But that would immediately be challenged by the coalition of attorneys general in blue states that are trying to protect those rights. So I think the optimistic take is that it would be tied up until Mr Trump's term is over and then hopefully a new president could take a new DOJ and end all of that. But I do think that those reproductive rights are going to be the first thing under attack starting this year.

Speaker 2: 25:53

Okay, thank you both. On to the next topic.

Speaker 1: 25:56

All right. So we've talked about labor and wage. We've talked about health care. The next topic up we wanted to talk about was the latest of du jour between Elon Musk and the constituents on the right, where he told someone to F his face immigration. So I want to talk about immigration.

Speaker 1: 26:15

For those that may not know, especially as it relates to employment. There's two types of visas that typically people work under right when they come to this country. There's an H1A visa, which I believe is typically more seasonal work, agricultural work, and then there's the H1B visa, which is much like, seems to be much more skilled work. You're for longer periods of time, you're sponsored by a company and it could be like Silicon Valley basically mostly Silicon Valley, some professional. Silicon Valley, basically mostly Silicon Valley, some professional. Quote unquote the argument this week or last week I have no sense of time anymore is that they wanted to get. The Republican Party said we want to get rid of these H-1B visas. Elon Musk said hell, no, over my dead body. I want to know we're not even in week two of the year, so we're not even in week two of the year. What's going to happen with?

Speaker 4: 27:07

immigration this year. Harrison, I'm going to go you first. Yeah. Harrison please Give me the hard one.

Speaker 3: 27:12

No, I mean, who knows? Like I said, it goes back to who's in his ear at this day. Elon Musk is in his ear right now and I do think he has a lot of power and I don't know what he is politically, but he's not a Republican. He's for him, basically, but he's for innovation, he's for growth, he's for disruption and going back and might not be the positive way we were talking about earlier, but he's for these things. I don't see them taking those full aspects.

Speaker 3: 27:40

I think a lot of these things and I think Brian mentioned it earlier a lot of these things are campaign talk because they rile people up, but I don't know how practically speaking, these things are, because illegal immigrants are one thing and he's going to target and he's going to do that, but getting rid of these visas, these people use these employees, they need these employees and if they don't have these employees, their business is going to be expensive the money they're going to have to pay a lot more for somebody else who doesn't have these visas. And we already have a work shortage. I think there's, for every 100 jobs globally, there's 95 employees at this standpoint. So there's already a work shortage in that standpoint. So I do think, practically speaking, while it sounds great in a bumper sticker, the people in his ears right now must be one of those main voices who I do think does have his ear. I don't see major changes from the visa standpoint of getting them out of the workforce, because they're necessary for the workforce in many ways.

Speaker 1: 28:34

Yeah, I heard a stat I can't remember what, I'll put it in the show notes, though that for every H-1B visa holder it creates 1.86 jobs. So to your point, it's not only about the job shortage, but it's also about job growth, sometimes with the H-1Bs. But, ryan, you were trying to hop in there, sorry about that.

Speaker 4: 28:52

Well, there's an interesting sort of exponential effect Creating more jobs actually leads to creating more jobs. It's a funny thing, kind of like how you make more money when you put more money in a high-interest savings account. That's kind of the effect we see. So I believe you, francesca. That makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 4: 29:07

Now, h-1b visa I don't think it's going anywhere. I actually don't. I'm not an immigration attorney. This is just based on my tangential knowledge in employment law. I don't think it's going anywhere and I don't think there's going to be many restrictions on it, for two main reasons. Number one national security. Trump is one of the first presidents in my lifetime to want a military parade and he wants to invade Greenland and he wants to invade Panama and he's going to need a big giant military to kick off World War III. If we are going to have any hope of national security during whatever he wants to do, we need the best and brightest engineers to make our F-22s and F-35s and battleships and stuff work, and the defense industry is heavily dependent on skilled labor like that. Boeing alone has thousands. And speaking of thousands this is the second consideration Trump's most important allies rely on H-1B visa labor for their companies. Musk alone has, I think, 2,000 that he's employed across his companies.

Speaker 4: 30:06

And Musk has Trump on a pretty tight leash. Musk has a lot of power. It's quiet power compared to Trump's, but it's a lot of power. And then we look at people like Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg and all the big billionaires who are trying to curry favor with Trump. They rely on those engineers and mathematicians. And that kind of leads to a third point. If your goal is to eliminate or declaw, the Department of Education and the United States continues to slip in science, technology, engineering and maths compared to other industrialized peers, we really have no option except to get that talent elsewhere other industrialized peers we really have no option except to get that talent elsewhere. So if we want to remain an economic and military superpower, H-1B visa is an essential part of that.

Speaker 3: 30:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can't get rid of it. You need the workers, and the people in his ear are not going to let him get rid of it, so not unless you don't want your missiles to launch when you hit the button.

Speaker 4: 31:01

I mean it's going to be a consideration.

Speaker 3: 31:03

unfortunately, it might be a good thing from our standpoint.

Speaker 4: 31:07

Yeah, you know that's something we can debate whether it's good or bad, but the point is I don't think H-1B is going anywhere. What I do think and this is a bit more concerning to me one thing that we see in OSHA anti-retaliation statutes and US Department of Labor anti-retaliation statutes is employers cannot take advantage of undocumented labor, also known as illegals, is what Trump supporters call them, but I call them undocumented. Undocumented labor and pay them less than a minimum wage or not pay them at all and threaten them with incarceration, them less than a minimum wage or not pay them at all and threaten them with incarceration, violence, reporting them to ICE, things like that. The reason those anti-retaliation rules exist is so that no employer can benefit from human trafficking or straight up kidnapping. That's actually a really big problem. Even here in California, I've been in cases where we have 20, 30 undocumented immigrants who don't want to work for the employer, but they have been threatened and intimidated into staying there for subminimum wages. Now why is that so important? Trump is borderline violently.

Speaker 4: 32:14

Anti-retaliation statutes against undocumented people are not enforced, or perhaps reduced or rescinded when, basically, if you say, hey, I'm undocumented, but I'm working in this warehouse and they're not giving us safety gear. They're paying us $4 an hour. Sometimes they don't pay us at all. Um, the new osha, the new dll under trump, is going to say hey, that's really interesting. By the way, you're under arrest. Uh, that that's what my biggest fear and concern is. That's worst case scenario for me yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1: 32:57

I was reading an article the other day. It was a article, but it was about how do you handle workplace raids around immigration as a leader, and you know the fact that we're talking about that as something else that might be happening in the ether is just on a human level.

Speaker 4: 33:16

It's upsetting, that's why I opened by saying I want to dispel any notion that Donald Trump is a normal president. He is not George Bush, he is not Mitt Romney. He is an entirely different creature that operates on a completely different system than any US president I have seen. Because, whereas other presidents sure there was corruption, ineptitude, certain moral decisions that we might disagree with, certain moral decisions that we might disagree with, the sort of seesaw, whiplash, unpredictability and violent rhetoric Really it's the violence in the rhetoric that's so different about Trump.

Speaker 4: 33:51

What it creates a concern for employment rights advocates like me is listen, even if you're here illegally. Yes, you might have broke the law, maybe you were trafficked, I don't know. That's a separate issue. But but even so, I do not want a legal framework that makes it possible for employers to exploit your undocumented status to extract free labor from you. That is a serious human rights concern and, and one of my biggest predictions is that a lot of those protections may go away. Right now they're still intact. So if you are undocumented and your employer is taking advantage of that, you should report it or at least talk to an attorney about your options first.

Speaker 3: 34:29

I'll just add on one thing. You're talking about the civility, the incivility, and I agree 100%. It's a crazy world we're living in, but I'll be the optimistic and I'll keep my optimistic eyes and glasses on. I think, mel we were speaking about this when we first spoke is the one thing we didn't see was the massive incivility after the election that we expected from either side and once again, obviously one side won. But I think there's something to be optimistic about is the workforce is almost controlling itself.

Speaker 3: 34:57

We were prepared that whichever side won, we were going to see massive incivility and, truth be told, if the other side would have won, we probably would not, would have seen it and a couple of days ago, January 6th, might not have been exactly the same and there might have been other results that the other side would have won. But we're seeing the workforce really take that step and not showing up to work and reacting differently. We're seeing a much more mellow, civil reaction where, all right, we can do this and I think the workforce HR specifically is a really good job of building that culture with an organization where, whatever comes, we're going to help and we're going to control it and we got your back, and I think that's my optimism is hopefully that will offset some of the external craziness, and it's another role HR and the businesses are going to have to run is keeping civilian workforce. But optimistically, based on the election results, using that one snapshot, they might be getting the hang of it and doing a good job at that. Hopefully at least. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:06

I also like the idea of business potentially as a check and balance that unwritten check and balance, I guess on culture it might not be a bad thing for sure.

Speaker 3: 36:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:16

Mel, you want to go into our next topic? Let's go, let's dive, right in DEI.

Speaker 4: 36:23

Oh boy Cool, More good news.

Speaker 2: 36:25

More good news. Yeah, more hot topics we saw in 2024, DEI was certainly under attack in the corporate sector. We know SHRM even removed an element of DEI as well, which had a lot of interesting backlash, which had a lot of interesting backlash. Do you think this continues in 2025? And can there be? Do you expect there to be further rollbacks and challenges with DEI programs in workplaces under the administration's policies that might be coming?

Speaker 4: 36:57

I can go for this, but I feel like I tend to jump on these. Harrison, do you want to go, or shall I run? I went first last time. I'll give you the easy one. I got the hard one. Right now. Swing very far to the right, very quickly.

Speaker 4: 37:17

We're going to see a majority Republican commission and my prediction that I would bet money on is Andrea Lucas to actually chair the EEOC, and that is very much a case of the fox in the hen house. The EEOC arguably exists to improve diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace, and we will have the I guess we could call them the anti-woke people in there. The most serious immediate concerns I have is the EEOC rolling back protections, rolling back enforcement, but also the federal government punishing certain employers who have DEI initiatives, because the current chatter on the right-wing side of policymaking is DEI is inherently racist and anti-American. I know that sounds insane, but they've done many mental gymnastics to justify that position. So what they want to do is say that well, if you have a program that promotes equity, diversity and inclusion, what you're really doing is being racist, you're being anti-white, you're being anti-male, you're promoting people based on skin color, and that's not OK. So we will see.

Speaker 4: 38:34

I think federal guidelines that punish employers for having DEI initiatives. A great example would be anyone accepting federal money, anyone with a federal contract. They would be required to disband any DEI initiatives they have. But on the flip side of that we have companies like Costco which are basically coming out and saying no, having diverse viewpoints is actually part of the reason we're winning, it's part of the reason we're so successful, and that's not going anywhere.

Speaker 4: 39:03

So there is the sort of hard policy and soft policy tug of war we're going to see, and I think what we're going to see on hard policy is a lot of initiatives by the Republican majorities to punish DEI programs and discourage them. But soft policy will have companies that say well, what do our customers want, john Deere? Those companies very proudly disbanded their DEI initiatives because they know who their customers are. Costco also seems to know that their customer base tends to be middle upper class, young professionals, educated people who tend to lean more liberal, and that could have informed their decision to put their feet down and say no, dei is here to stay. I will say this regardless of the federal government's new direction on being anti-woke or anti-DEI, the Civil Rights Act is not going anywhere. Its enforcement might change, its interpretation of some details will change, but, straight up, discrimination is still going to be illegal, at least for the next couple of years.

Speaker 3: 40:07

I'm curious if you're looking from the legal standpoint, where I look at it is more from the practical employer standpoint of the mindset.

Speaker 3: 40:15

I look at the last election and one of the things I saw was I think it was definitely a statement of one side and I hate the word woke, but one side ran on an anti-woke culture, dei being one of those initiatives where they're running where it's, it's it's. We want everybody to be equal. I don't see color, which I know is one of the worst things you could possibly say, but that's what they're running on that standpoint, say, but that's what they're running on that standpoint. I'm curious to see the employers, the C-suites, the people higher up in the companies, what message they take out of the election results. Does that free them to do like there was a lot of pressure from a lot of these CEOs and executives to instill these DEI initiatives? Even from the legal standpoint? Just to me, that's the way the culture was going, that's the way society was going. Do they see this election results where Trump won most of these states and we could debate whether it was a landslide victory or a lot of small victories, but one significantly and one without a shadow of a doubt. Do they take it as a mandate to do what they want to do from the first part that these initiatives are wrong or do they take it as a mandate?

Speaker 3: 41:18

I'm curious if you're going to see those hiring standpoints and once again going back to the role of HR and I'm a benefits nerd I'll roll it back into employee benefits like I do everything else. I think it's going to be the role of the workforce to offset that. I think you're going to see going back to your CISO. I think you're going to see a CISO between some of the CISO level executives and the old school higher up executives who might have one view of the EI and the people on the ground in the workforce, and it might change state by state of business by business.

Speaker 3: 41:45

But I think the businesses are going to have to create a culture and employee benefits is one of those main aspects where you might start seeing more DEI initiative benefits inside the workforce. You might see more benefits focusing on the LGBTQ plus community. You might see more benefits that have mental health solutions, more ERGs, employee resource groups coming up outside so they can talk and have safe spaces and once again, another word I hate, but safe spaces discuss these issues and talk so, even besides the legal standpoint, I'm curious what the election results not even the Trump presidency, but the message that people take out of the results. I'm curious how that trickles down to the workforce of a DEI initiative, and that's really what scares me the most.

Speaker 4: 42:29

Yeah, I think whether employers interpret it as some sort of mandate is honestly going to depend on their biases. You know, I think a mistake we all make is we look at big corporations, big institutions and think that they're these sort of ultra-rational things and they really are not.

Speaker 3: 42:46

They think everyone's right.

Speaker 4: 42:48

Yeah, there's a lot of hubris, that's for sure, and they have their own biases. What is the Walt Disney Company going to do today? Well, let's find out what kind of mood Bob Iger is in. He's a person, he's not a machine. Uh, so here's what I think we're gonna see. I think, if you want to look at what the next few years will look like, look at the past few years, and it actually starts with believe it or not. I want to quickly talk about rings of power produced by amazon. Did you guys hear about that show or see that show?

Speaker 1: 43:16

rings of power rings of power.

Speaker 4: 43:19

It was an amazon adaptation of jr tolkien's the lord of the rings.

Speaker 1: 43:22

I knew this. I knew this was going here. I'm like he's gonna be talking about lord of the rings.

Speaker 4: 43:27

It supposedly covered events thousands of years before the original trilogy occurred. Now the quality of the show, in my personal opinion, is atrocious horrible writing. They spent a billion dollars. The sets look like my niece could have made them, like I don't know where all that money went. It's a very poorly produced show.

Speaker 4: 43:45

But that aside, one thing that really upset a lot of people was a black elf, a black female dwarf, a female lead who was accused of being a Mary Sue, and having watched nine episodes I agree she was a Mary Sue, very poorly written character. Many of the main characters from Tolkien's work who happened to be men were completely written out of the show. So what happened was? That show, I think, is a perfect specimen of the culture shift that we're going to see, and this is a sort of soft policy. This is not hard policy. It's a soft policy where people, because of pop culture productions like Rings of Power, rightly or wrongly believe that America has become too woke and has started doing diversity, equity, inclusion for its own sake and at the expense of better qualified men and white people. Whether you agree with that is one thing, but whether that's the prevailing wins right now.

Speaker 4: 44:40

I don't think is up for debate. I think it's very clear. That's where we're at. So what I think we're going to see is a very strong quote, unquote anti-woke culture in a lot of businesses, in a lot of media, especially with Trump at the helm, where we're probably going to see some. Really, we might see some rational discussions, really we might see some rational discussions.

Speaker 4: 45:00

Like Rings of Power should not have written out very important male characters to Tolkien's work just because they didn't want too many male characters dominating the scene. They should not have completely rewritten Galadriel's character to suit a political agenda. That was a mistake. So we'll see little changes like that. But we might see more aggressive things like joking about racial slurs is now okay. Don't be so woke, don't be so soft. You know women aren't the same as men. Everyone knows they're more flighty, irrational, emotional. Let the men handle this. Uh, perhaps that won't be seen as outrageous and rude as it ought to be. So I think what will happen is the pendulum will swing very far right. I think a lot of companies are going to go anti-woke for a while and it may trigger more instances of incivility, insensitivity, straight up, jaw-dropping instances of discrimination, and then that pendulum will left again, hopefully to a rational center, where it belongs.

Speaker 1: 45:59

Oh go ahead.

Speaker 2: 46:01

Oh, I was just going to say, Harrison, to your point about the election results. What I thought was so interesting is it wasn't a landslide. By any means, I have the final numbers up. Do you want to tell my?

Speaker 4: 46:11

dad that.

Speaker 2: 46:12

Yeah, because Kamala, you know she had 48.3% of the votes and Trump had 49.8. So when you look at those numbers, that is a very like almost 50-50 split in terms of what representation looks like and who people wanted as a candidate to represent them.

Speaker 3: 46:31

When you think of People see in statistics in general. People see in statistics what they want to fit their definition.

Speaker 2: 46:38

A hundred percent, I'm just. It's curious, though, when you think about the workplace, or like CEOs thinking about these policies and how they're going to react to their workforce and support their employees or the culture they're trying to build, like they need to almost look at the workforce as it could be this 50-50 split.

Speaker 3: 46:56

So that's where it's interesting and that's where I think the biggest challenge and I keep picking on HR, but it really is HR that's going to be the biggest challenge with HR, because you're going to have certain people, honestly, probably the billionaire owners or the higher up people in these corporations not to pick on the billionaires, but who see the results one way, who see the results that this was an electoral landslide and we're going to use that mandate of this is what the country wants, based on those results. And then you have the fact that, yes, it might have been an electoral college landslide but, as you said, the actual employees, the boots on the ground. If you did a straw poll of the employees who they're working with, it could be 50-50. It might even be a little bit more more in some states. It's probably a lot more new york, california, it's a lot more where they don't care. So it's going to be. Hr is going to be stuck in the middle there. So hr is going to have such an important role of balancing that and it's it's going to. It's going to be I hate to use the word fun because it's like fun which is disruptive, disruptive fun, but it's going to be fun to watch the HR role grow in 2025, because they're going to be balancing that out a lot more, because it's exactly what you said.

Speaker 3: 48:08

It's two statistics that are both. It's two truths. You won the election in the electoral landslide, but the actual vote count was so much smaller. So, from the CEO or the high-level executive standpoint, this was a mandate of anti-woke, but 50% of your population still feels that he was the wrong candidate and voted the other way. So HR is going to be an interesting pickle or conundrum, or whatever cool word you want to use to do that. But, brian, the one question is should I watch that show or not? You're saying it's horrible.

Speaker 4: 48:43

Watch a YouTube review of the show Listen. As a writer myself, I care very deeply about things like plot, structure and character development. Rings of Power is a masterclass in how to do the opposite of all of those things.

Speaker 3: 48:59

So not on my net, not on my not on potatoes one or it's.

Speaker 4: 49:03

It's just a badly written show. I I don't know who the chief writers were, but they need to try another profession.

Speaker 2: 49:10

I love it. Thank you both for for uh talking through that and we're going to move on to the next final topic kind of talked about this a little bit earlier, but I do want to talk about safety and workplace safety.

Speaker 1: 49:22

Mel and I have talked a lot about like child labor laws. We've started seeing some of this eek out already in florida, for example, of some of these child labor laws, labor safety regulations getting loosened already under the biden administration. Um, what, what happens with, again, regulations, safety?

Speaker 4: 49:43

2025? We're speculating, of course. We don't have crystal balls. We don't know what is going to happen.

Speaker 1: 49:49

I have a magic eight ball if anybody wants it. Oh lovely.

Speaker 4: 49:53

And then I'm not going to pretend I don't have a strong anti-Trump bias I do. I think he's a grotesque human being, apart from his policies. So I tend to look at him with a strong lens of distrust. I don't trust the guy. I don't trust he's going to do the right thing. I don't trust he's going to act in people's best interest. So with those disclaimers out, let's take a look at the past.

Speaker 4: 50:12

In his first term, donald Trump greatly reduced OSHA protections. He reduced OSHA investigators to a historic low. I think there were only something like 600 and something OSHA investigators during his term, which sounds like a lot. Until you realize, I believe the statistic that they released later was it would take those 600 something investigators over 60 years to investigate every covered employer in their jurisdiction only once. So not enough investigators, a record low of actions taken to protect employees, and there is at least a correlation I don't want to say a causal effect, I don't think I'm qualified to say that but there is a correlation of higher instances of workplace injuries and workplace deaths when we have fewer OSHA actions, because the truth is most employees are too scared or they don't know their rights or they don't have the means to access private representation. So it really is up to OSHA to assert workplace safety.

Speaker 4: 51:11

The other thing that we're going to see much less activity from OSHA creating new protections for workers. A really unfortunate example is OSHA's heat safety rule. The United States is one of the few industrialized nations that does not have a unified heat safety standard. It's a patchwork across the states and some states, like Texas and Florida, have even banned heat safety protections. They said we don't have a heat safety protection rule Cities, cities and counties. If you make one, you're in big trouble. It's void. So that's pretty weird that the right-wing republican agenda seems to be not just not creating a heat safety standard but banning it.

Speaker 4: 51:50

So what I think is going to happen? The osha heat safety proposal is gone. Uh, anyone trying to enforce an osha action is more likely than not going to have to rely on the general duty provision, which is that employers have a general duty to create a workplace free from unreasonable hazards, not anywhere near as profound as we'd like to see. If an actual hey, if your employee is really hot, you should give them water, that would be nice. So we are going to see fewer investigators, we'll see fewer new rulemaking and we may see more lax interpretations of rules in Rocha's jurisdiction. I think that general duty statute, as loose as it is, is going to get a little looser.

Speaker 3: 52:29

Yeah, I mean, this is not my area by any stretch, but just based on basic logic. He's pro-business and anti-litigating business and letting them do what they want, and he's looking to cut money from the federal government and cut as much money as possible. Which is going to cut these people investigating situations. Put those two together and you're not looking for it's not looking at great results. Once again, I'm not being optimistic over here, but you're not. The optimism is that businesses will do the right things amongst themselves when not being asked Fingers crossed, who knows? But at the same point, from a federal standpoint, he's looking to cut as much as he can from the federal budget and cut as many jobs that he sees unfit, and he's going to let businesses do what they want. So I don't see outside of maybe state laws and maybe on a-state basis, they're implementing some rules and regulations. I don't see that being a good idea.

Speaker 4: 53:22

State-by-state. We'll see, Harrison. And the reason I brought up the Texas and Florida bans on heat safety proposals is, you know, depending on how zealous Republicans decide to get with their policymaking. Remember, I come from a far-right background. I was raised in a very conservative home and I worked for very conservative employers in a red dot in the blue sea that is California. So I'm pretty familiar with their interpretations of these things. They genuinely see departments like OSHA as unconstitutional.

Speaker 4: 54:01

In fact, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas has even opined that if a challenge to the existence of OSHA comes before the Supreme Court, he would like to strike the agency down. He thinks the entire existence of OSHA is unconstitutional. Now, does he actually think that? Or does Harlan Crowe think that? And Harlan Crowe took him on a yacht trip? That's a totally different discussion. But the point is, the people with a position to eliminate OSHA or greatly restrict its rulemaking authority have already made their intentions clear and we're already seeing challenges in the Fifth Circuit. Harrison, I think I detected that you're in Canada. Our court system has federal circuits. The Fifth Circuit is in Texas, Louisiana. It's the Deep South and that's known as a Republican stronghold rule, saying that they're affected by the rule because they know the Fifth Circuit will go their way and now they're going to try to go up to the Supreme Court. So there is a risk that OSHA will have its authorities severely restricted or the agency even disbanded. That would be pretty extreme. But severely restricted, I think, is more likely.

Speaker 3: 55:15

Go ahead, Harrison. He's going to target the administrations that targeted him. He's going to go after first. I don't think there's been any OSHA attacks on him, so I think we might limit that a little bit. But yeah, he's not going to invest into it. I don't think it's going to go away per se, because I think there still is enough push from people and even though they do have a Republican majority, it's such a thin majority at this point.

Speaker 4: 55:35

I think he's going to hopefully pick his dad, I'm talking about the Supreme Court's majority, which is 63. The Supreme Court has the authority to say oh, this whole OSHA experiment, it was unconstitutional. The executive branch overstepped their authority by creating this horrible network of unelected bureaucrats I'm doing quotes for everyone listening Unelected bureaucrats, when really Congress needs to make these rules. Congress created OSHA and empowered it to enforce Congress as well, which is important because when Congress writes laws, they are intentionally broad and intentionally vague. There's been this narrative in the Trumpverse that, oh, congress is so bad at their jobs. Look how broad the legislation is. They do that intentionally because the lawmakers cannot foresee every possible hypothetical that may occur under that statute. So it makes a lot more sense to have an agency tasked with enforcing that statute, like how the EEOC enforces our Civil Rights Act, to help address those little what-ifs and hypotheticals and niche situations as they go, because, as we've seen, congress is really really, really bad at reaching a consensus on niche, specific issues.

Speaker 1: 56:48

Yeah, you know, the thing that I hold true to that is that just because some of these whole departments and or some of these regulations might get lowered or just gone away, go bye, bye. Basically, it doesn't mean that a company needs to lower its standards, right oh?

Speaker 4: 57:03

absolutely not. And I will say the more probable thing if anyone in Trump's camp is even remotely intelligent and I hope there's at least one smart person there if they want to affect their agenda with the minimal pushback, the smartest thing they can do is put certain people in charge of those agencies and they simply decline to enforce. That would be the more probable thing. I see where Andrea Lucas at the EEOC might see a very egregious gender pay discrepancy at a company and just say, oh, didn't see it, don't know anything about that. Because what better way to get your way without rocking the boat than to simply take charge of the agencies and have them do nothing? If they do nothing, it's like they don't exist at all. I think that's a possibility as well.

Speaker 2: 57:49

That's interesting.

Speaker 4: 57:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:52

Mel over to you.

Speaker 2: 57:53

Yeah, well, we have some listener Q&A and we just touched on OSHA, so I'm going to skip that question, but some of the stuff coming in. Someone said I'm a parent and I'm interested in what we might see to support families. Trump pushed a very family-centric policy with his messaging. Do you think things like on-site child care will be a greater priority in workplaces?

Speaker 3: 58:16

Yes, so on-site I don't know, but you definitely are going to see it. I say you're definitely going to see as definite as anything can be in a Trump administration, but I do think that they run on family values and a lot of this is family values. So a lot of it's going to be an enhancement of parental leave, child care support. You might see stuff like dependent care, fsas limits be enhanced significantly. I mean, obviously you're going to see tax incentives for families. You're going to see a lot of enhancements on the quote unquote family value benefits, a family value workforce. For some that's going to be very beneficial, as a parent is going to be very beneficial.

Speaker 3: 58:59

I do think you're going to see paid leave In New York. They instituted I'm going blank on the word, but not maternal leave, pregnancy leave, prenatal leave where you actually have hours where you can see doctor's appointments paid in New York. You might see stuff like that be expanded. It's a very Republican, very evangelical presidency right now. That's what we're seeing.

Speaker 3: 59:22

I do think stuff that all of the family value title really be enhanced and I do think that's where you're going to see a lot of the change, a lot of the growth which could benefit some people significantly. Once again might make it a little more complicated to administer on the employer's behalf, but I definitely do see that being a focus to appease his base and show that he's doing something positive for at least some people in that situation. Yeah, childcare is expensive man it is and pre-taxing that is definitely going to be a value. And paid leave is one thing. I think america I'm not going to pretend I know the numbers, but I do think the um attorney and paternity leave in america is one of the worst in the world and we don't take advantage of those as much.

Speaker 3: 1:00:02

So I do think it sucks, it totally sucks yeah, yeah, so enhancements that significantly, and he started doing that at the end of his last term.

Speaker 2: 1:00:13

Okay, there's been significant talk about raising the federal minimum wage. Absolutely not happening. We have a better shot.

Speaker 4: 1:00:23

We have a better shot at paid parental leave, and the reason for it's actually not crazy to say this. I know that Trump gets painted very negatively by people like me. There is actually a not zero percent shot at paid parental leave under the Trump administration. It's very slim for a number of reasons we could get into, but in 2019, he actually signed legislation to approve paid parental leave for some federal employees, which is shocking because, oh my God, you're spending money on people who have nothing to offer you. Mr Trump, that is not a character, but we welcome it, so it's possible that we could see more of that.

Speaker 3: 1:00:56

Yeah, but it doesn't affect him specifically. But you're seeing where he's going. Once again. He doesn't have views. He was pro-abortion before. He was anti-abortion. He has views based on the people around him and you're seeing the pro-family values really chip in. And I do think if you're looking to invest in benefits or buy stock in benefits that are going to do stuff, whatever that might be, in any capacity, it's going to be the pro-family values. It's going to be the parental leave. It's going to be, once again, we want you to have more kids. We want you to have these values. We want you to have the family. We don't want the abortions Stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 1:01:39

I definitely do think he is going to invest because, even though it doesn't help him specifically, I do think part of this term I'm hoping that he realizes this is his swan song. He's not running again. He at some point in this presidency. He is so egotistical and this is a good thing. In some ways he's going to look at his legacy and he's going to look at what he can do from his legacy standpoint and I think things like paid leave and family value issues will tie into that and I do believe strongly that at some point in this presidency he's going to look at his legacy and I do think that's going to be one of the ways he's going to try enhancing it universal health care in there.

Speaker 1: 1:02:10

Man just like wrapping up up yeah that he's not gonna do I definitely know on universal health care.

Speaker 4: 1:02:18

Uh, if, anything he'll try to create something to give uh private health insurances some kind of benefit or leg up on government sponsored health care. He wants to get as many people off government health care as he can yeah, I mean, and he's done some good stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 1:02:31

Once again, he's done in his first can, in his did the ICHRAS, which are the individual HRAs, which is surprising because he's pushing people towards the Obamacare marketplaces. But he allowed employers to create these health accounts to buy. Instead of having an employer paid policy. We're going to give you money to buy money off the exchanges. That was something we did in the first term to enhance stuff like that, the HSAs.

Speaker 3: 1:02:56

He's a tax man. He's going to look at the financial aspect. So when it comes to things that are tax benefits and things that will help the rich hide money in certain regards and his buddies and himself hide money he's going to do that. So let's take full advantage of those situations. So I do think, when it comes I don't think it's all doom and gloom when it comes to health care yes, certain things abortion rights, fertility, dei rights, 100% those are going to be under attack. But I do think stuff like parental once again I hate to say it, but the family values aspect of the benefits, things like ICHRAs going to the individual marketplace, benefits to help child care, paid leave and stuff like that I do think we might see a major growth, specifically towards the tail end of his presidency, where he is looking to build a lot of legacy.

Speaker 2: 1:03:40

I know we are over time, so I'd love to jump to our crystal ball. Well, it's all been a crystal ball, but our closing crystal ball predictions here, if that's okay with you both. It sounds like the theme of the night is workplaces really are going to have to take charge in terms of setting the tone for what the experience is, and Francesca and I talk about this often. Do your due diligence when you're choosing your employer because, guess what, you're choosing them as much as they're choosing you. So with that, in 60 seconds or less, share your boldest prediction for how jobs, politics and policy will evolve under this administration by 2028. Boldest your boldest. You're big and bold. We'll come. Well, I'm gonna rock the vote right now.

Speaker 4: 1:04:27

Unless he dies or is literally too sick to put up a fight, trump will not peacefully relinquish power in 2028, and I know that because he tried not to do that last time. I mean, that shouldn't even be bold. That's like beyond obvious to me that unless he is dead or too sick, he's going to cling to it. He's not going anywhere. But let's look at how that affects people at work.

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

If we will.

Speaker 4: 1:04:53

We are going to see tax cuts. Uh, they're going to probably favor corporations and the wealthy and what they choose to do with those tax cuts. Hopefully we see enough pushback on soft policy that the downwind effects that trickle down that we've been promised since the 80s that should come any day. Now I hope we actually will see some of those tax savings invested into the workforce. I hope, but that may not be likely because we will see a retraction of union power.

Speaker 4: 1:05:23

Donald Trump has said that he will veto the Protecting Workers' Rights Organized Act, the PRO Act. He is definitely going to scale back NLRB efforts. There are cases on the docket now which could dismantle or greatly gut the NLRB. So we are going to see much more diversity of protections, state by state ton of litigation of federal agencies under the Trump regime trying to curtail certain rights and protections and the coalition of democratic AGs trying to fight that. So we're going to see a lot of lawsuits, a lot less union power, probably some tax cuts and maybe, hopefully, as a result of those tax cuts, your employer offers some kind of enhanced medical or other programs for you. Those are my predictions currently.

Speaker 3: 1:06:18

Okay, you took the dark side.

Speaker 3: 1:06:19

I'll take the light side of things, please do. I think, my biggest prediction. Well, I think if we ran this podcast every six months, our answers will change every six months for the next four years. That's the boldest prediction. I think that's not even bold. I think that's obvious.

Speaker 3: 1:06:33

What I see and I think interesting is, I think the HR world and my focus is on HR and human resources and, as a benefits consultant, those are the ones I deal with on a daily basis I think the role of HR is going to skyrocket. They've wanted a seat at the table for years. They're slowly starting to get it. I think you're going to see, over the next four years, them really have a larger seat on the table for all the reasons we've spoken about. There's so much going on in the workforce where HR is going to be so necessary that they're going to need to have a seat at the table. So my bold prediction is we're going to see a significant growth in the human resource space, and there's going to be good, there's going to be bad, and there's going to be good, there's going to be bad.

Speaker 3: 1:07:16

Our hope and optimism is that the businesses are able to take the good and benefit from the good and will work around the bad. I think it's going to be a lot more pressure on the workforces. I think it's going to be a lot more reliability and it's going to be more important and this is really where HR comes in. Employers are going to be much more specific of picking where they work. I posted on my LinkedIn today the famous thing from Jerry Maguire show me the money and that's where you chose your job and that's where you chose you're going to work. That's not going to be in four years. The next four years. That's not going to be what employers are looking for. They're going to be looking for culture, because they're not getting it anywhere else. And the employers, hr, finance, the CEOs, the C-suites.

Speaker 3: 1:08:00

It is going to be so important to build a culture within your organization that you're going to help attract and retain, because there are going to be a lot of obstacles against you and their roles are going to be done significantly. And show me the money is not going to be the answer, it's show me the culture. At this point, I just made one catchphrase.

Speaker 2: 1:08:14

The culture we got gotta make some bumper stickers, harrison, I'm already making shirts.

Speaker 4: 1:08:17

I'm I'm stealing that and I will not be giving you credit.

Speaker 2: 1:08:20

Harrison, I'm sorry we're gonna work on that statement, harrison, we'll give you, we'll put your photo next to it. Uh, francesca, what about you?

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

you know I I will go out. I just to be very candid, I vote on like predominantly on social justice issues and after the select, I voted for kamala. I'm sure that's not. That's probably obvious. Um, I try to write an rfk, but after the election, the feeling I had was know, when you're dating someone and you're like I think they're cheating on me, but I'm not sure. And then you find out they're cheating on you and you're like well, now I know.

Speaker 1: 1:09:05

And there's a freedom in kind of knowing. This is what you're dealing with and what I think will be very interesting over 2028, and this is not an optimistic or negative I think what you're going to see, especially in organizations and Harrison to your very good point around culture is now it's going to be very clear, for whatever reason, what your company stands for or not, what kind of culture your company has or not, and you can opt in to whatever that is as an employee. And that's where I'm actually kind of like that meme eating the popcorn and just walking it, because everybody has the opportunity to choose their lane at this point. Yeah, I'm excited about it, the clarity that comes with knowing that someone's cheating on you.

Speaker 4: 1:09:54

I agree with and I do think that the big winners over the next few years, um, spoiler, big shock. Uh, women make up a large percentage of the workforce and they are incredibly talented. Uh, I am one of only two men in my organization. Uh, that's not for any discriminatory reason, just the most qualified candidates have happened to be women. So I think we are going to have a very strong trad culture that's pushing back that sort of oh, men are in the office, women are at home. But organizations that open up their culture, open up their doors to female professionals, are going to be the big winners, because if you make that kind of talent feel comfortable in your organization, you have a leg up on the people who make them uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 1:10:37

Yeah, I would say the research out there shows also that women are better leaders. Sorry, I did a whole episode on this based on a recent report, but also we lead the buying power in this country, and so I think when corporations are making decisions about how they treat employees and how they show up in the world, they're going to have to really think about that. Women are more than 50% of this population and we have the power to impact their bottom lines for each.

Speaker 3: 1:11:06

Now we need to teach the voters they're better leaders, but that's it.

Speaker 1: 1:11:09

By the way, women buy on all sides too right by the way, women buy on all sides too, right.

Speaker 2: 1:11:19

So I guess my bold prediction was going to be that I think overtime is grossly going to get thrown out away completely. They're really trying to get rid of overtime and paying people overtime. I feel so passionate about this subject, but I agree with Harrison, I agree with all of you actually. I think culture is going to be at the center, and I don't think it just falls on HR. It falls on every leader within an organization to run culture. It's not HR's job to lead culture, and, in fact, organizations that lean too much on HR are going to lose, because it has to trickle down from the top, and so I think if you are paying attention to your employees and you're caring for them, through all of the whiplash, you will come out winning, no matter how things go.

Speaker 4: 1:12:00

That's a really good point, mel, and I think one thing employers should realize is just because the federal government says you can do something doesn't mean you should. There's a lot of things as an employer I could do to my employees if I wanted to, and they have no redress. But guess what? They're just going to leave. If you're going to be a bully and point to the rules and say, oh, the rules say I'm allowed to do this, it's like you're allowed to do it but it's not a good idea.

Speaker 3: 1:12:22

The other interesting thing is they might benefit from that. The fact that it's not mandated gives them an advantage, because not everybody's doing it. When it's mandated, everybody's doing it because you have to do it. If you're not mandating and you're doing it anyway, you're going to get a leg up on the good quality talent, because they're going to want to work for you guys. Yeah, 100%, that's the glass half full.

Speaker 4: 1:12:45

It's a positive, that's fantastic, Harrison, I agree, and not to gloat, but I have a really fun sort of rule at my firm that's different. We comply with overtime rules in California, of course, but we have a special overtime rule that is not required, but it's the rule here. If you're ever asked to do something that is outside your normal job duties, regardless of how many hours you've worked, we pay time and a half for that. If you are an office manager and I ask you to take on a role that maybe the intake specialist would normally do, are an office manager and I ask you to take on a role that maybe the intake specialist would normally do guess what Time and a half. The reason we do this is to help avoid things like people feeling scope creep and then they wake up one day with a million new job responsibilities they never agreed to and no raise.

Speaker 2: 1:13:26

Duties as assigned.

Speaker 4: 1:13:29

Exactly. I don't do that because I know firsthand the resentment that that can create. So I'm not trying to say, oh look at me, I'm the best employer in the world.

Speaker 4: 1:13:37

It's smart to say you're doing something outside your job duties time and a half. So employers who are always looking for a way to nickel and dime their own employees they're going to lose and you know what's going to happen is those employers are going to go to people like me and look for anything. Any violation they can to sue those guys over is going to go to people like me and look for anything, any violation they can, to sue those guys over.

Speaker 3: 1:13:56

Disruption creates success. Disruption does create success. Look at COVID, look at everything the people did really well during those times because they adapted. People are going to adapt to what's going on with Trump. There's going to be people who are going to be very successful and there's going to be people who are going to fail under the Trump administration. It might not be the people you think. It might be the complete opposite of people you think. It might be people who see differently than him, because they're adapting to what's going on and they're making themselves better because of it, and we're going to see a lot of success. We're going to see a lot of failure, like everybody, and we just hopefully all your listeners now have to listen to this.

Speaker 4: 1:14:34

They're going to be on the successful side. Yeah, I think the people who can be pragmatic despite any moral or personal outrage we see to what's going on will be the winners.

Speaker 2: 1:14:40

Absolutely Adaptability. Yeah, protect our peace too. All right, thank you both. So much, Francesca. I'm handing it over to you.

Speaker 1: 1:14:48

All right, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us today. Please like and subscribe, and follow us on your work, friends, on the platform of your choice. Also, feel free to join us on any of our socials on Instagram, tiktok or LinkedIn as well. Harrison Ryan, thanks so much for joining us today. Appreciate you both.

Speaker 4: 1:15:05

Thanks so much for having us Always great talking to you, Harrison. You're a lot of fun too. I guess we'll hang out more.

Speaker 3: 1:15:10

Well, we'll definitely talk Ryan. More Well, we'll definitely talk Ryan. I'll follow you now and I feel bad. You're attorney, ryan. I should have been employee benefits Harrison but people don't forget what you do.